Republicans patronise "Eyes Wide Shut" S&M club

[freemason9]

but, republicans

More like butt-plugricans.

sadly, this is funny

[Nordic]

Even more impressive: the Nordic state is the first country in the world to ban stripping and lapdancing for feminist, rather than religious, reasons.

Damn I'm gonna have to change my handle in protest.

Maybe it's politically incorrect, but I like strip clubs. I think banning them is ludicrous.

[freemason9]

Even more impressive: the Nordic state is the first country in the world to ban stripping and lapdancing for feminist, rather than religious, reasons.

Damn I'm gonna have to change my handle in protest.

Maybe it's politically incorrect, but I like strip clubs. I think banning them is ludicrous.

banning strip clubs is a great idea, nothing good happens there to anyone in the long term

[Blue]

This is one thing that tends to irk me, is that the industry is painted with a broad brush. That the person working in the industry is most likely exploited. Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited. I'm not trying to lecture you or give you a hard time here, SS, it's just that I come across this mentality quite often & all to often people speak to me as if I'm one of those exploited people.

Seems to me that Iceland is penalizing honest sex workers.

The dishonest ones marry into money for profit.

Do these "feminists" have a problem with that? If so, are they going to try and shut that down too? If not, why not?

Good point.

You say you are not exploited. Great. But when you bury your head in the sand and say "Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited." It makes me sad that you don't understand the larger picture and the number of people exploited in this industry. And the antagonistic words against "feminists" is telling.

[Nordic]

I think that if women get into a position, or are so psychologically inclined, for whatever reason, to do what goes on in strip clubs, that it is far better and FAR safer for them to do it in the confines of a strip club than to go "freelance" and visit people's homes, apartments, or hotel rooms. In strip clubs, there are rules, and the women run the joints, they call the shots insofar as who gets to do what with them. They have physical protection, literally, as in if a guy does something they don't like, said guy can be thrown out, and I mean thrown out, of the club.

I wouldn't want my daughter to work in one, but I did have a very good female friend who did. She had her reasons, and I don't judge her because of any of it. I don't think she thought of herself as exploited in any particular way, although I'm sure she wished that the economic situation that made her choose to cross that rubicon were very different, but she was in no control of it when it happened.

[Simulist]

And the antagonistic words against "feminists" is telling.

Really? Then maybe it's "telling" you something that isn't there.

I put the word, "feminists" in quotation marks, because I think true feminism can represent many points of view on matters like this, not just one — and certainly not just the one that is being represented in that article.

[Blue]

You're building strawmen all over the place, Mac. Have at it, if that's your thing.

I'm not convinced that making such laws really "protects" anyone. The activity is driven further underground where it can't be seen by so-called "polite society," but that's really not much of a triumph — and often actually makes matters worse.

Sort of like the "War on Drugs" — yeah, making drugs illegal has been a rousing success in curbing drug use. (Not.)

A lesbian making a statement about women being treated as commodities is no where near the "War on Drugs" analogy, dude.

Sigh. It is so difficult to get yall to understand!

She isn't a Prude, she isn't Polite Society, she isn't taking away your dick, okay?

She's trying to change the thought patterns of her country. She wants to bust the Patriarchal world as she sees fit!

Why are you against this change?

[Joe Hillshoist]

Thats true to a point Nordic.

provided the women have recourse to the law etc etc

Trafficked people work at legal strip clubs in Australia apparently, but little seems to be done to stop it. They are definitely exploited. But girls who grew up in Australia do too, while going through uni or whatever. I know people who have done it and according to them the money is better than the other work options available - including the sort of work where you get 25 buck an hour or more.

Its still the commodification of their bodies, and that says a lot about the state of our culture, but ... well its certainly not the same as being trafficked into Australia and forced to serve however many customers a night while working at a strip joint to pay off an exorbitant price for your freedom. While facing the threat of detention and deportation from the authorities, or violence and death from the people that brought you here.



Interesting that its Iceland, which is where a lot of wikileaks stuff has been happening lately, and they just released some CIA briefings on various Icelandic govt ministers.

[Simulist]

Sigh. It is so difficult to get yall to understand!

Then maybe you should type slower, then all of us here "idjuts" might have a chance to keep up wit'cha...

People have different life experiences, and we all draw from them to form our opinions.

You have a point of view. So do I, so does everyone.

[Blue]

Sigh. It is so difficult to get yall to understand!

Then maybe you should type slower, then all of us here "idjuts" might have a chance to keep up wit'cha...

People have different life experiences, and we all draw from them to form our opinions.

You have a point of view. So do I, so does everyone.

Sorry, Simulist, I didn't mean to sound like THAT.

Yes we all have different life experiences...but when discussing sex trafficing it's usually about women and girls being exploited.

I apologize, friend, for misunderstanding your meaning.

See, I'm used to hearing the "blame the Feminists" crap whenever something like the OP shows up.

[waugs]

This is one thing that tends to irk me, is that the industry is painted with a broad brush. That the person working in the industry is most likely exploited. Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited. I'm not trying to lecture you or give you a hard time here, SS, it's just that I come across this mentality quite often & all to often people speak to me as if I'm one of those exploited people.

Seems to me that Iceland is penalizing honest sex workers.

The dishonest ones marry into money for profit.

Do these "feminists" have a problem with that? If so, are they going to try and shut that down too? If not, why not?

Good point.

You say you are not exploited. Great. But when you bury your head in the sand and say "Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited." It makes me sad that you don't understand the larger picture and the number of people exploited in this industry. And the antagonistic words against "feminists" is telling.

I see this attitude among a lot of sex workers lately. I live in Portland, which has the largest ratio of strip clubs per capita in the country. The attitude seems to be, "I'm taking control of my body, so I'm liberated!". Of course, this is a simplification, but i hope you get the idea.

All of the strippers I've known have had drug problems and/or heavy emotional problems. I don't think stripping or fucking for money is a good way to overcome such obstacles. (duh)

I have no problem with people doing what they want with their bodies, but to suggest that exploitation is the exception to the rule is a bit naive (especially based on your "survey" of sex workers you've met.). I mean, how many have you met and how did you determine that they are not exploited? Did they tell you this? Does this really mean they're not being exploited? Probably not.

[Peregrine]

So, Peregrine, the sex worker, do you honestly believe all women who fuck for money ENJOY what they do and perform sex acts with um, Gentlemen?

Of course not. I don't speak for all women (or men) in the industry. I'm giving a point of view from my perspective. And I'm definitely not for the mistreatment of women in the industry & I most certainly am not for the exploiting of women in any way. I'm also not in a position that some in the industry are. Some are unfortunately forced into this kind of work & I think it's wrong. I, however, am in a position where I can interview & choose who I work with. And yes, by golly, some of us do enjoy what we do.

You say you are not exploited. Great. But when you bury your head in the sand and say "Granted, that is the case sometimes, but all the folks I've come across in the industry are far from exploited." It makes me sad that you don't understand the larger picture and the number of people exploited in this industry. And the antagonistic words against "feminists" is telling.

I don't appreciate assumptions being made about me & being accused of burrying my head in the sand & assume I don't understand the larger picture. I've stated before that I am not for exploiting the sex worker. I'm for legalization, where women can form unions & where they have resources & a safe place to work. And where was I antagonistic towards feminisim?

As a side note, there are those in the industry who are feminists. Carol Leigh and local activist Jamie Lee Hamilton come to mind.

[Peregrine]

I mean, how many have you met and how did you determine that they are not exploited? Did they tell you this? Does this really mean they're not being exploited? Probably not.

I unfortunately did what I accused some of doing. Painting with a broad brush. I should have reworded all workers I've come across to ones I know & work with personally. I didn't come to a conclusion, and yes, they, like me, enjoy what they do.

I do admit, though, that I don't personally know any ladies that work in strip clubs. The ones I've worked with & know personally would be courtesans, escorts, pro doms & pro subs, to be precise.

[AlicetheKurious]

This line from the article is important:

According to Icelandic police, 100 foreign women travel to the country annually to work in strip clubs. It is unclear whether the women are trafficked, but feminists say it is telling that as the stripping industry has grown, the number of Icelandic women wishing to work in it has not.

The problem of women tricked with promises of decent work, then kidnapped and transported to other countries where they are kept against their will by way of threats, induced drug addiction and physical abuse, has grown out of control. Sex slavery of women is a global industry that is mostly run by the same people who traffic in little children, drugs, guns and god knows what else.

I don't doubt that you're sincere, Peregrine, but if "sex work" was not a degrading and dehumanizing occupation, why would so many (perhaps most) of these women have to be forced to engage in it? Why, as the above quote indicates, must foreign -- usually desperate women -- need to be tricked, kidnapped and 'imported', to fulfill the market demand?

This discussion reminds me of a woman I met many years ago, Lindalee Tracy, aka "Fonda Peters". I'd heard there was a woman who organized an annual "Strip-a-Thon" to raise money for a children's hospital. As the editor of a student paper, I decided to do a feature about her, which she kindly accepted, and I spent a couple of days following her around. I was immediately impressed with her personality. She was extremely intelligent, well-read, very funny and kind to me, a very naive kid with dreams of being a real reporter someday.

As part of my research, I spent a couple of hours in the strip club where she worked, along with one of my best friends, Dave, who was there to take pictures for the article. That was the only time in my entire life I've been inside a strip club. I'll never forget it. The waitresses were all naked. The women on the stage were naked. I had stepped into a universe where all women, regardless of what they were outside, were dehumanized pieces of meat whose value depended solely on their physical attractiveness to the customers.

Fonda had told me in the interview that appearances were deceptive, that the women were really in control. In her act, she deliberately made fun of the customers, sometimes going so far as to insult them. She used that, and the fact that touching was not allowed, to persuade me that it was the women who were exploiting the men, to make more money than they ever could, given their circumstances, as waitresses or office workers. Though she admitted that many were drug addicts or runaways with little education, some, she said, were single mothers who chose to do this because they could stay home with their children during the day and only work at night, when the children were in bed.

But what I saw once I stepped into the club was very different: nobody was insulted by her jokes because they were too busy looking at her crotch and her tits. She could say what she liked as long as she jiggled at the same time. Even worse, by virtue of being in that club myself, I was lumped in with the rest of the meat, even though I was very young, fully dressed and carrying a big notebook. Every man I passed boldly looked me over from top to bottom, not bothering to disguise his scrutiny. Here, I was merchandise by sole virtue of being female. My friend Dave, whom I'd brought because I felt so comfortable with him, began uncharacteristically commenting on the various collections of body parts around him as though they existed as commodities to be displayed for his pleasure, rather than human beings. This one was "hot", that one was a "dog", he kept pointing out the flaws or attributes of each as though that's what he was there for. It took me five minutes to adjust to the sight of all those naked women, but much longer to assimilate the change that had come over him. Suddenly I wondered if that was how he had been all along, and being in this environment just brought it out.

I came away from the whole experience feeling less trustful and with a sense of pity for this very smart woman whom I felt was kidding herself about what she was doing, what she was part of. Later, I was glad to learn that she left that world and began a new career as an investigative journalist, which suited her personality far better, in my opinion. Unlike millions of other women, she was incredibly lucky that she had that choice.

[AmyRose]

You got it Alice! And good for Iceland! I lived in Vegas for 12 years and there were strip clubs galore that kept popping up everywhere. And I am against the clubs, in general. I had a friend that used to sell pot at some of the strip clubs because he would make large amounts of money off of the girls and I would tag along with him just to see what it was like in there. And Alice, you are so right. The men would look at me, up and down. Try to give me money to go tip the dancers on stage. Try to talk me into getting on the stage. Etc etc...You described it perfectly.

Maybe I'm a little biased because I was working as a professional dancer in Vegas for about 5 years and I saw how the sex industry has really taken a hold of some of the traditional performing arts shows on Las Vegas Boulevard. On the one end of the strip you have the Cirque Du Soleil shows taking over (which are fine; acrobats, light show, highly overpriced, but still entertaining). But on the other end you are seeing more of the Risque nude dance shows being featured. Yes, they are technically-trained dancers...But still. I don't think there is a need to be dancing hiphop topless. I mean, come on...really? (ta-tas ouch!) So, the classier shows are disappearing. And even with some of the older shows still there, the difference in pay between the featured nude dancers and clothed dancers is huge. I still can't believe a girl I hung out with and danced with in a show in Shanghai is dancing as a nude in one of these shows (one of the classier older shows, but still....money talks).

The problem with the sex industry is that it's the neverending vicious circle. It's the Hotel California - You can check out anytime you'd like, but you can never leave. I'm so glad that smart woman you met got out of it, Alice. I have a friend that lives in Vegas and he's been telling me about his friend for 5 years now that's in her 40's, addicted to drugs, has children, and she is still stripping. She's stuck. She can't get out of it. One girl I knew, she was a wicked bellydancer. She could have performed at some of the Middle Eastern restaurants that featured dancers. Instead she went to stripping, then to Pornos. She still does it. She was really intelligent too. She could have done anything. Sad, so sad.