Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby American Dream » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:56 am

The Roots of Stalin in the Tea Party Movement

By Yasha Levine, AlterNet
Posted on April 17, 2010


http://www.alternet.org/story/146504/


The Tea Party movement's dirty little secret is that its chief financial backers owe their family fortune to the granddaddy of all their hatred: Stalin's godless empire of the USSR. The secretive oil billionaires of the Koch family, the main supporters of the right-wing groups that orchestrated the Tea Party movement, would not have the means to bankroll their favorite causes had it not been for the pile of money the family made working for the Bolsheviks in the late 1920s and early 1930s, building refineries, training Communist engineers and laying down the foundation of Soviet oil infrastructure.

The comrades were good to the Kochs. Today Koch Industries has grown into the second-largest private company in America. With an annual revenue of $100 billion, the company was just $6.3 billion shy of first place in 2008. Ownership is kept strictly in the family, with the company being split roughly between brothers Charles and David Koch, who are worth about $20 billion apiece and are infamous as the largest sponsors of right-wing causes. They bankroll scores of free-market and libertarian think tanks, institutes and advocacy groups. Greenpeace estimates that the Koch family shelled out $25 million from 2005 to 2008 funding the "climate denial machine," which means they outspent Exxon Mobile three to one.

I first learned about the Kochs in February 2009, when my colleague Mark Ames and I were looking into the strange origins of the then-nascent Tea Party movement. Our investigation led us again and again to a handful of right-wing advocacy groups directly tied to the Kochs. We were the first to connect the dots and debunk the Tea Party movement's "grassroots" front, exposing it as billionaire-backed astroturf campaign run by free-market advocacy groups FreedomWorks and Americans For Prosperity, both of which are closely linked to the Koch brothers.

But the Tea Party movement -- and the Koch family's obscene wealth -- go back more than half a century, all the way to grandpa Fredrick C. Koch, one of the founding members of the far-right John Birch Society which was convinced that socialism was taking over America through unions, colored people, Jews, homosexuals, the Kennedys and even Dwight D. Eisenhower.

These days, the Kochs paint themselves as true-believer Libertarians of the Austrian School. Charles Koch, the elder brother who runs the family business in Wichita, Kansas, quotes the wisdom of proto-libertarian "economist" Ludwig von Mises, but also sees himself as an economist in his own right. In 2007, Charles made his contribution to the body of free-market thought with an economic theory he calls "Market-Based Management" (a term he trademarked).

David Koch is the highbrow brother who lives in New York. He ran as the Libertarian party candidate for president in 1980 and says his dream is to "minimize the role of government, to maximize the role of private economy and to maximize personal freedoms." Apparently everyone's a free-market enthusiast at Koch Industries, including its spokeswoman, who recently wrote a letter to the New York Times stating that "it's a historical fact that economic freedom best fosters innovation, environmental protection and improved quality of life in a society." It might be true somewhere for someone, but not for the Kochs -- they owe it all to socialism and totalitarianism.

Here is a better historical fact, one that the Kochs don't like to repeat in public: the family's initial wealth was not created by the harsh, creative forces of unfettered capitalism, but by the grace of the centrally planned economy of the Soviet Union. The Koch family, America's biggest pushers of the free-market Tea Party revolution, would not be the billionaires they are today were it not for the whim of one of Stalin's comrades.

The story of how the Koch family amassed its socialist wealth starts at the turn of the 20th century with the birth of Fredrick C. Koch. Fred was born in a tiny north Texas town to a Dutch immigrant and newspaper publisher. The historical record is not clear about the family's wealth, but it appears that great-granddaddy Koch was not hurting for cash, because Fred Koch turned out to be a smart kid and was able to study in MIT and graduate with a degree in chemical engineering. A few years later, in 1925, Fred started up the Winkler-Koch Engineering Company with a former classmate, quickly developing and patenting a novel process to refine gasoline from crude oil that had a higher yield than anything on the market. It was shaping up to be an American success story, where anything was possible with a bit of elbow grease and good ol' ingenuity.

The sky was the limit -- until the free market rained on Fred's parade.

See, Fred was living through the Roaring Twenties, a time of big business, heavy speculation and zero government regulation. Much like today, cartels were free to form and free to fix -- and so they did. Sensing a threat to their royalty-revenue stream from Winkler-Koch's superior refining technology, the reigning oil cartel moved in to teach the young Koch how the laissez-faire business model worked in the real world.

"[W]hen he tried to market his invention, the major oil companies sued him for patent infringement. Koch eventually won the lawsuits (after 15 years in court), but the controversy made it tough to attract many U.S. customers," according to Hoover's Company Records service. Just like that, Winkler-Koch Engineering found itself squeezed out of the American market. They had a superior product at a cheaper price, but no one to sell it to.

Luckily, there was one market where opportunity beckoned and innovation was rewarded: the Soviet Union.

Stalin's first Five-Year Plan was just kicking into action a nation-wide industrialization effort, and Soviet planners needed smart, industrious college grads like Fred Koch. The Soviet Union was desperately trying to increase its oil refining capacity, so oil engineers were especially in high demand -- and well paid, too.

"We are the world's greatest market, and we are prepared to order a large amount of goods and pay for them," Joseph Stalin told an American journalist in 1932. Stalin wasn't kidding. From 1926 to 1929, the Soviet oil industry bought $20 million worth of equipment. And Koch was about to get in on the action.

In 1929, after hosting a delegation of Soviet planners in Wichita, Kansas, Winkler and Koch signed a $5 million contract to build 15 refineries in the Soviet Union. According to Oil of Russia, a Russian oil industry trade magazine, the deal made Winkler-Koch into Comrade Stalin's number-one refinery builder. It provided equipment and oversaw construction:

The first Winkler–Koch plants were set up in Tuapse in 1930. The cracking unit operated commendably, and would in the future be the type preferred by the heads of the Soviet Union's petroleum industry when purchasing new cracking equipment. In 1931, two Winkler–Koch cracking units were launched in Baku, another two in Batumi, and six at once in Grozny; the last had a combined refining capacity of 900,000 tons per year. In 1932, a Winkler–Koch unit commenced operations in Yaroslavl.

At the time, the Soviet Union's oil industry was a total mess. Equipment built by Western engineering firms was always breaking down or didn't work at all. Western engineers were constantly being accused of espionage or sabotage, real or imagined, and booted out of the country. Soviet workers suspected of colluding with the foreigners were simply taken out back and shot. Winkler-Koch made sure it was running a tight, efficient operation. Unlike his Western competitors, Koch pleased his Soviet clients by ensuring top quality and helping the cause of socialism.

The Soviet oil planners were delighted with Koch's refineries. The communists were so impressed they kept giving Winkler-Koch business and regularly sent Soviet engineers to train in Wichita. It was a sign of growing mutual trust.

By the time he got out in 1933, Koch earned $500,000, which was a ton of money for a kid fresh out of college. This nut of money served as the foundation for the family's future assets, which Koch no doubt started acquiring at rock-bottom prices. After all, 1933 was one of the two worst years of the Great Depression -- all assets were priced to go at 90 percent off. In the end, the capitalist-hating socialists ended up treating Koch fairly, way better than the monopolistic thrashing he got from his native land. So you'd think he'd at least something good to say about the Soviet Union when he got home.

Nope, not at all. He hated the commies, but for some reason he kept it to himself until the late 1950s (possibly because he was still doing work for the Soviet Union). Then, after coming back from a trip to the Soviet Union in 1956, he flew off the handle. According to a 1956 AP article, Fred Koch was among 11 prominent residents of Wichita, Kansas who traveled to Moscow "in an effort to convince the Russian people that Soviet propaganda about capitalists is untrue." Sounds like the perfect cover for a business trip.

It's not clear what he was actually doing there. But whatever the outcome -- maybe he didn't get the contract he was expecting or maybe he got swindled out of some investment or maybe he plain hated the thaw of post-Stalin Russia -- Fred Koch came back a pissed-off anti-communist and joined up with the right-wing Birchers. He bankrolled a John Birch Society chapter in Wichita and attempted to open a Bircher bookstore, which wasn't too popular and had to close.

He warned of a massive communist conspiracy to take control of America, saying that the Reds were eroding American universities, churches, political parties, the media and every branch of government. "Maybe you don't want to be controversial by getting mixed up in this anti-communist battle," Koch said in said in a speech to a Women's Republican Club in 1961. "But you won't be very controversial lying in a ditch with a bullet in your brain."

In 1961, Koch published a pamphlet titled "A Businessman Looks At Communism," in which he recounted his travels with a "hardcore Communist" named Jerome Livshitz. It was from Livshitz that Fred Koch first learned about the commie conspiracy to take over America:

The government detailed a little man by the name of Jerome Livshltz to go around to our various installations with me. Livshitz had taken part in the revolution of 1905, and had spent twelve years in the U.S.A. as a revolutionary, most of the time in jails....

In the months I traveled with him he gave me a liberal education in Communist techniques and methods. He told me how the Communists were going to infiltrate the U.S.A. in the schools, universities, armed forces and to use his words, "Make you rotten to the core." I believe that due to his American experience he was one of the original architects of the Communist plan of subversion of the U.S.A.

My associate and I pulled him from under an overturned car in Tiflis, and he was amazed. "Why did you save my life?" he said. "We are enemies. I would not have saved yours. Perhaps when the turn there, I will spare your lives." He told me that if his own mother stood in the way of the revolution he would strangle her with his bare hands. This is the mark of a hard-core Communist. They will do anything -- anything.

Fred Koch's paranoia continued to spiral out of control until his ticker quit in 1967. But by that time his son, Charles G. Koch, had already taken over control of the family business. He appropriated his father's communist paranoia and made it the basis of the family's free-market business philosophy.

"Once, my father ran a business in the ex-Soviet Union, and all engineers who worked with my father were imprisoned by Stalin later. My father, who had experienced this, became an anti-communist and thought the value of economical freedom and prosperity was more important than ever before," Charles said during an interview with a Korean newspaper in 2008, leaving out the part how evil socialist cash was the foundation of the Koch family's wealth.

Once he took over, it was clear that Charles had big plans for Koch Industries. He was going to push the limits of corporate growth by plowing 90 percent of the company's profits back into the till and diversifying to the max. It worked. The company expanded at an unreal rate: its revenues increased from $100 million in 1966 to $100 billion in 2008 -- that's 1,000-fold growth.

Today, it operates thousands of miles of pipelines in the United States, refines 800,000 barrels of crude oil daily, buys and sells the most asphalt in the nation, is among the top 10 cattle producers, and is among the 50 largest landowners. Koch Industries also poured hundreds of millions of dollars into right-wing organizations like Institute for Humane Studies, the Cato Institute, the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, the Bill of Rights Institute, the Reason Foundation, Citizens for a Sound Economy and the Federalist Society -- all of them promoting the usual billionaire-friendly ideas of the free market, deregulation and smaller government.

If that expansion looks too fast to be legit, that's because it was.

William Koch, the third brother who had a falling-out with Charles and David back in the '80s over Charles' sociopathic management style, appeared on "60 Minutes" in November 2000 to tell the world that Koch Industries was a criminal enterprise: "It was – was my family company. I was out of it," he says. "But that’s what appalled me so much... I did not want my family, my legacy, my father’s legacy to be based upon organized crime."

Charles Koch’s racket was very simple, explained William. With its extensive oil pipe network, Koch Industries' role as an oil middleman--it buys crude from someone’s well and sells it to a refinery--makes it easy to steal millions of dollars worth of oil by skimming just a little off the top of each transaction, or what they call “cheating measurements” in the oil trade. According to William, wells located on federal and Native American lands were the prime targets of the Koch scam.

"What Koch was doing was taking all these measurements and then falsifying them on the run sheets," said Bill Koch. "If the dipstick measured five feet 10 inches and one half inch, they would write down five feet nine and one half inches."

That may not sound like much, but Bill Koch said it added up. "Well, that was the beauty of the scheme. Because if they’re buying oil from 50,000 different people, and they’re stealing two barrels from each person. What does that add up to? One year, their data showed they stole a million and a half barrels of oil."

In 1999, William decided to take his brothers down. He sued Koch Industries in civil court under the False Claims Act, which allows whistleblowers to file suit on behalf of the federal government. William Koch accused the company of stealing hundreds of millions of dollars in oil from federal lands.

The band of brothers settled the case two years later, with Charles agreeing to pay $25 million in penalties to the federal government to have the suit dismissed. It turned out to be a great deal for Charles and David, considering that in the 1980s their "adjustments" allowed Koch Industries to siphon off 300 million gallons of oil without paying. It was pure profit--free money--to the tune of $230 million.

At the trial, 50 former Koch gaugers testified against the company, some in video depositions. They said employees even had a term for cheating on the measurements. "We in the company referred to it as the Koch Method because it was a system for cheating the producer out of oil," said one of the gaugers, Mark Wilson.

Ah, finally! Have we stumbled onto the secret to the family’s success? At the bottom of it all, is the Koch Method that funds all the libertarians nothing but old-fashioned theft? Or, as Koch hero Ludwig von Mises might ask, "Is the Koch Method just an unceasing sequence of single thefts?"
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby Hammer of Los » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:05 pm

Great article there AD. You bring some great material to this board. Thanks for that. Its a very interesting slice of history.

The article has a massive negative slant to it, of course. Opposing communist state control, and favouring a (properly regulated) free market system is hardly controversial. Even today's leftists agree with that. Certainly though that Charles Koch does look more than a wee bit shady, although his father's actions and motives are harder to impugn.

Still, that whole tea party thing is curious. Not to mention a little suspicious and worrying. I do worry about folk fanning the flames of a right wing populism. It's an interesting issue.

On the other hand, there is a movement which is deeply libertarian, and which opposes state interference in people's private lives, and ever increasing techniques of surveillance and control, often combined with anti war sentiment. Neil Peart recently identified himself as a "left leaning quasi libertarian." I got that on Wiki. That's for you 82_28. I always loved Rush. Oh, Peart backed away from much of his early admiration of Ayn Rand* too, I believe.

I guess that's kind of what I am; a green anti war left leaning quasi libertarian (new age philosopher, universalist unitarian, anti-establishment conspiracy theorist and evolving consciousness).** I have voted Green Party before in elections. And Labour. Although Blair gave me much cause to regret that. He was a tool of the real power elites, the establishment. What a phony Tony was. And we all know it. Still, they pay well.

*part of the inspiration for the album 2112, and much of Peart's early philosophical/political ideas.

**
Green anti war liberal left leaning quasi libertarian (new age philosopher, universalist unitarian, anti-establishment conspiracy theorist and evolving consciousness).


Does anyone have any idea what the size of this demographic is? I know its well-represented here on RI. I blame David Icke.

:D

But sadly the leftist party in this country favours ever increasing state surveillance and control, together with continued murderous and destructive geo political meddling across the planet. And that's not a conspiracy theory. I guess its just what the establishment want. What's a boy to do?

I can't go vote Cameron. Heaven help us if the Bullingdon boys get in. Prepare for nasty cop.

Brown? A major part of the New Labour project, is he to be trusted? His discomfort over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan does him credit. He was never one to parrot the War on Terror bs. I can't think of much else to say in his favour though.

Nick Clegg and Vince Cable, the wonderous economic oracle, are beloved of the BBC. That right there is enough to make me suspicious. And no, I don't mean I think the BBC are too liberal. Quite the reverse.

I'm rambling off topic now. Sorry bout that.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby smiths » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:00 am

Green anti war liberal left leaning quasi libertarian (new age philosopher, universalist unitarian, anti-establishment conspiracy theorist and evolving consciousness).


i am not sure how many of them there are

personally i am a cautiously optimistic pluralist agnostic green, espousing balanced constructive and dynamic movements forward whilst adhering to classical sound moral core-concepts all the time aiming at a better future
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby Hammer of Los » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:03 am

smiths wrote:personally i am a cautiously optimistic pluralist agnostic green, espousing balanced constructive and dynamic movements forward whilst adhering to classical sound moral core-concepts all the time aiming at a better future


It sounds nice, smiths. In fact, more than nice, marvellous!

smiths wrote:personally i am (a) cautiously optimistic


Hmph. I'd have to say I'm neither optimistic nor pessimistic, simply fascinated by what is happening.

smiths wrote:pluralist


Universalist is a pluralist definition of religion. I'm not a theist or anything like that. But, I tend to the spiritual and mental realms because I am an introverted personality type. Well, that's one way of putting it. I am an idealist, not a materialist. Or rather, I should say I am some third thing.

But I super loved this;

smiths wrote:agnostic


Yes, yes! Me too, above all things agnostic, although I never did get around to reading that buddhism without beliefs book which looked so interesting, the definition of interesting being something I can agree with, or put less flippantly self-deprecatingly, something which resonates with me.

smiths wrote:espousing balanced constructive and dynamic movements forward


That sounds brilliant! I love it. Especially the "espousing balance(d)" thing. I've got to agree there, being a neo taoist.

smiths wrote:adhering to classical sound moral core-concepts


Well, the sort of perennial philosophy type concepts and proto religious philosophical (ontological and epistemological) perspectives which resonate with my mind could be seen as the source of "classical sound moral core concepts", such as love thy neighbour as thyself, do none harm, seek not pleasures in abundance, seek the middle way, be modest and unassuming, seek to serve others, offer none violence, radiate universal compassion and so on. They're the sort of things I like.

smiths wrote:all the time aiming at a better future


I like that too. I have an interesting theory. If we can all be better parents than our own were, and bring up our children more mentally, emotionally and physically secure than we were, the world will inevitably become a nicer place over time.

I would be so sad to see the great and idiosyncratic geniuses of this board not leave their legacy physically in their sons and daughters. We need enlightened souls to pass on their wisdom.

Besides which, I'd say you were just the sort of philosopher the new age needs, smiths.

Isn't agreeing a beautiful thing!

:D

ps so sorry for the slight thread derailing. But I so love you all and so love this board that I can't help but ramble.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby wintler2 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:53 pm

Hammer of Los wrote:so sorry for the slight thread derailing.


I expect nothing more of you HoL. You had a go at derailing the thread on pg2, new page - new attempt to derail.

Anybody would think you wanted to distract from news on billionaire fascists subverting democracy and science. Who could possibly want to do that? :?:


Americans for Prosperity is a front for corporate interests
April 15, 2010
In about 30 seconds, thanks to sourcewatch.com, I found out that Americans for Prosperity, which is described as a "grass-roots, free market advocacy organization" by op-ed writer Dave Schwartz (Tea party, 1 year later," April 15), is nothing more than a corporate front group. Formerly called Citizens for a Sound Economy, AFP has a record of advocating for the tobacco industry to oppose cigarette taxes and indoor smoking bans and is largely funded by the Koch Family Foundations and Scaife Family Foundations. The Koch Foundations are funded entirely by the Koch Group, the largest privately owned energy company in the U.S. The Scaife Foundations funded most of the "Whitewater" harassment of Bill Clinton.

AFP is much like Tea Party Express, led by former House Majority Leader turned super corporate lobbyist Dick Armey. Both organizations would wither and die were it not for the financial lifeline they get from corporate interests who enjoy hoodwinking a gullible public.


The Baltimore Sun is using Sourcewatch? that makes my day. But its .org not .com .

Look at climate denial by talking points and you'll quickly stumble upon Koch money. Climategate? Check. "Polar bears are doing fine"? Check. The so-called Spanish study that, with bogus methodology, "proved" that green energy kills the economy? Check.
Think of climate denial in terms of obstructionist lawmakers and you'll quickly spot Koch money in their coffers. The brothers gave more than $10,000 each to James Inhofe (R-Ok.), Lisa Murkowski (R-Ak.), Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.), Jim DeMint(R-S.C.), Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.), David Vitter (R-La.), John Boehner (R-Oh.), Eric Cantor (R-Vir.), and Joe Barton (R-Tex.).
Look at climate denial as a list of right-wing think tanks, and you'll also find Koch money in the safe: Americans for Prosperity, which funded this summer's astroturf "Hot Air" protests, got $5 million. The Cato Institute has been on the climate beat since the 80s. In recent years alone, it's gotten $1 million from the Koch brothers; ditto the Heritage Foundation.
So, if you're an environmentalist or you just support real science over junk science, think about crossing Brawny, Dixie Cups, Angel Soft and Quilted Northern off your shopping list for good.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/gre ... y_id=60886



‘Hitler Youth.’ At an Americans for Prosperity event in December 2009, guest speaker Christopher Monckton called youth climate activists “Hitler Youth.” He told a Jewish youth climate activist whose grandparents escaped the Nazis that he was “Hitler Youth,” and that “you people don’t care” that “millions are dying in third world countries.” Americans for Prosperity again featured Christopher Monckton at a regional summit in March 2010. [The Times, 12/11/09]
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2010/ ... er-debate/



I love it when these slimeballs hang together (Monkton & Kochs astroturf AfP), it makes them so much easier to spot.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby tazmic » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:16 am

Wintler2 wrote:...news on billionaire fascists subverting democracy

This is the status quo wintler. I hope you'd noticed this long before the Koch story broke. In fact, your emphasis on this could itself be construed as a larger distraction. You are picking sides within a fake dialectic if you think the Koch family are subverting democracy - no, they are doing business. Business as usual. However, I do appreciate the greater insights this story gives into the spider webs of corruption, so thanks for sticking with it and tracing it through for us.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby Hammer of Los » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:09 am

wintler2 wrote:
Hammer of Los wrote:so sorry for the slight thread derailing.


I expect nothing more of you HoL. You had a go at derailing the thread on pg2, new page - new attempt to derail.

Anybody would think you wanted to distract from news on billionaire fascists subverting democracy and science. Who could possibly want to do that? :?:


Yes quite. It's not as if I've spent fifteen years studying that very subject, amongst many other interests.

Your failure to accept an apology demonstrates bad grace.

One or two disagreements between us and your calumnies develop apace.


~~~

But I would like to point out that the following are clear insinuations against myself and other posters;

wintler2 wrote:It should be noted that RI's busiest resident AGW deniers (BenD, tazmic, Hammer of Los, sorry if missed anyone) are not interested in this story. Tazmic dropped by with a red herring, but apparently none of these brave seekers of truth are at all bothered or even surprised that they're pushing lies produced by fascists.

They depend on the memory hole, on the flood of trivia we have daily delivered, to wash away the appalling truth. It makes me sad for them, to be so lacking in love for their fellow humans and creatures.. what an abyss of loneliness.


wintler2 wrote:
Hammer of Los wrote:.. can you please direct me to a single lie produced by a fascist that I have pushed on this board. Thanks. Or you might apologise for the needless slurs. Or a third option of your choice.

I'll take the first option, and have more than a single lie.

Fascists need to normalise what they do, so the rest of the populace doesn't impale them on pitchforks. This is you are doing their work for them:
Hammer of Los wrote:I read the article you quoted Wintler2, but I didn't find it terribly revealing. I already know big corporations fund think tanks. Wintler, about all this funding by Big Oil et al. Lobbyists lobby and PR people do their PR schtick, ie lie, spin, obfuscate, omit, exaggerate, invent etc etc. It's what makes the world go around. Everything is advocacy. Every organisation needs good PR. Perhaps that is part of what is meant by "post-normal science."


Most of your lies are more discreet:
Hammer of Los wrote:.. Mostly I have learned that the concensus is that they dont know enough about the climate to do much in the way of accurate modelling.
False. Elsewhere in this comment you say you acknowledge reality of anthropogenic climate change and need to reduce emissions, but you are consistently anti-science and anti- any effort to adapt.
There may be legitimate climate scientists who have no political connections somewhere. I'm not sure. I haven't found any yet.
Classic FauxNews generalisation, emerging unbidden from the uneasy consciences of the corrupted.
..another preacher for the New Austerity they are currently advertising..
Nice use of the dogwhistle there.
.. But the understanding I drew from it was that climate science is essentially in its infancy, and basic assumptions are being challenged all the time.
False.
..Furthemore, such study of the climate is in its infancy, and therefore very much in flux as it ought to be. We know of the Greenhouse Effect, a well established scientific theory concerning the warming of the earth due to the accumulation of "greenhouse gases." Although to be honest I know little of the details of the theory, and ought to undertake a little further research. ..
What we don't know is how accurate our climate models are. I would suggest most of the evidence indicates they are less than reliable. Scientists essentially agree that the extent of the warming influence of a man-made greenhouse effect in the last 50 or 100 years is unknown.
Curious how awareness of your own ignorance doesn't stop you committing yourself to the pro-polluter viewpoint. Again.

You get points for subtlety HoL, and for occasionally acknowledging the most unarguable facts of AGW, but your consistent spin is there for all to see.


wintler2 wrote:
TVC15 wrote:
Goddam, that makes me mad...is anyone really trying anymore? Oddly, I am mad at Fox News for not perfecting the con; if you are gonna skew a 'survey', at least get your own broadcasted lie straight...I want the enemy to be formidable and...better at simple math, is that too much to ask?

Well here you come totin' it along , so I'd say the con worked a lot slicker than you realize.
They depend on the memory hole, on the flood of trivia we have daily delivered, to wash away the appalling truth. It makes me sad for them, to be so lacking in love for their fellow humans and creatures.. what an abyss of loneliness.

Oh, if I could but touch the hem of your garment!


wintler2 wrote:Have you got any interesting questions or answers on the Koch family, or will you just .. distract from the topic?




Hmm, that makes you the third AGW-denier to post to a thread on fascists funding AGW denial, and the third to make no reference to the topic and only attempt distraction.

Anybody else see a pattern here?


No_Baseline wrote:Bumping it bc I am grateful to Jack Riddler and Wintler2 (who I have disagreed with on this board btw) for being true to who they are and for furthering their truth;

I'm very glad this board allows all views, and users aren't afraid to call out the ones that may have a... what is the right word? sinister? propagantive? agenda


wintler2 wrote:
Hammer of Los wrote:so sorry for the slight thread derailing.


I expect nothing more of you HoL. You had a go at derailing the thread on pg2, new page - new attempt to derail.

Anybody would think you wanted to distract from news on billionaire fascists subverting democracy and science. Who could possibly want to do that? :?:



~~~


I thought insinuation of that kind wasn't welcome around here. I support light moderation, but when an offence is repeated and then taken up by others its a bit much. I'm feeling under attack here and becoming quite paranoid about what awful thoughts posters might be having about my integrity or intentions on this board. Seriously. That is why I nearly quit this place. Is that what you want wintler2?

So, where are the moderators around here?! I like a light touch, but a word from a mod might be nice. It's nice to be nice.

Besides which, I've had enough of this crap and I'm not taking it lying down any more.

Furthermore, I am very disappointed in Jackriddler's comments. I've always thought him an extremely astute commentator. Newsflash! I guess no-one's perfect.

Thank you for your time. Have a nice day.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby barracuda » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:43 am

Alright, here's a light touch, then: wintler and no_baseline, keep in mind that suggesting a poster is acting as a disinfo agent is not permitted on the board.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby The Consul » Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:19 am

Ideology is a dark bush where the monkeys of ignorance evolve their egos into expert opinions. It is all about dominance. No matter how great the crime, no matter how horrifying the massacre. What Koch exports their blindess with handsome fees. Here now, little wog, how much you want for those eyes? But sir, I am a journalist, I can not be bought. But son, I own the network, now see and say as you are told, but invest it with your own ego and maybe you'll get a raise. Repeat after me 1 The Polar Bears never had it so good and 2 people who think otherwise are crazy. Run along now.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby wintler2 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:23 pm

barracuda wrote:Alright, here's a light touch, then: wintler and no_baseline, keep in mind that suggesting a poster is acting as a disinfo agent is not permitted on the board.


Any tips then on how to handle posters who repeatedly drag threads off-topic?

Is that something moderators have any interest in, or is it just survival of the most persistent?
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby barracuda » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:39 pm

It's a tricky thing. Generally speaking, wintler, the breadth of the discussion allowed within the thread is up to the discretion of the OP poster, in this case nathan. Beyond that, you seem to have matters well in hand without resorting to the assistance of an admin insofar as the general thrust of the topic is progressing.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby nathan28 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:55 pm

Thanks, barracuda, now I'm the absentee landlord of this thread.


That "false dialectic" quote up above is pretty hilarious, though.

And everyone knows today 19 April, NWO One World Gov't Day. This place is probably crawling with agents who have nothing better to do than read the asinine commentary of the 115th Internet Conspiratard Malingerer's Brigade to further the Satanic Black Mass Plan to Destroy the Small Business Entrepreneurial Spirit. I might even be an agent and not even know it.

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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby wintler2 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:25 am

Its an interesting question, who a thread belongs to. I can see the simple beauty of allocating it to whoever started the thread, but that endorses an enclosure of the (information) commons; i'm more a fan of Ivan Illich, who said tools belong to those who best use them.

If say i was a poster wishing to cripple discussion on topic X on this board, under OPs-Rules the best way i could do that would be to start a thread on it, as then could bury discussion in trivia, deadends and self-indulgent rambling and be beyond sanction. Yes anyone could start a new thread on same topic, but theres got to be a dilution of participants.

I wonder how it would work if a thread author could ban specific posters from their thread, after providing as justification say a dozen examples of the kind of off-topic blathering they want to avoid.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:51 am

wintler2 wrote:I wonder how it would work if a thread author could ban specific posters from their thread, after providing as justification say a dozen examples of the kind of off-topic blathering they want to avoid.


It's called a blog, and they don't even need a justification.
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Re: Koch Family Outed as "Paymaster" of Climate Change Deniers

Postby wintler2 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:53 pm

JackRiddler wrote:It's called a blog, and they don't even need a justification.

Good point.

wintler2 wrote:Any tips then on how to handle posters who repeatedly drag threads off-topic?
Is that something moderators have any interest in, or is it just survival of the most persistent?
barracuda wrote:It's a tricky thing. Generally speaking, wintler, the breadth of the discussion allowed within the thread is up to the discretion of the OP poster, in this case nathan. Beyond that, you seem to have matters well in hand without resorting to the assistance of an admin insofar as the general thrust of the topic is progressing.

So its survival of the most persistent, which is not likely to be parents/the employed/people with a life. I feel so much better now.
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