Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby alwyn » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:52 pm

Percival wrote:I would like to ask for a cease-fire here and now, thats not to say we cannot continue this discussion but can we all try and do so in a more professional and friendly manner because as it is this place is looking really second rate and not the RI that I was once very proud to be a member of, some of you who I always held in high regard have suddenly become juvenile and have resorted to the kind of behavior that I expect of my 5 year old, not adults like you all certainly are.

So, for the sake of the forum, for Jeff and Cuda and those who work to keep this place going, can we tone it down while continuing our discussion, heated as it may be, but without all the name calling and personal attacking?


I apologize profoundly that I let my anger re the railroading of this fine woman drive me over the edge into a borderline ad hominem attack. You are right, Percival, that we should keep this 'civil'.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:59 pm

alwyn wrote:
Percival wrote:I would like to ask for a cease-fire here and now, thats not to say we cannot continue this discussion but can we all try and do so in a more professional and friendly manner because as it is this place is looking really second rate and not the RI that I was once very proud to be a member of, some of you who I always held in high regard have suddenly become juvenile and have resorted to the kind of behavior that I expect of my 5 year old, not adults like you all certainly are.

So, for the sake of the forum, for Jeff and Cuda and those who work to keep this place going, can we tone it down while continuing our discussion, heated as it may be, but without all the name calling and personal attacking?




I apologize profoundly that I let my anger re the railroading of this fine woman drive me over the edge into a borderline ad hominem attack. You are right, Percival, that we should keep this 'civil'.


Thanks Alwyn, trust me I know this is an emotional issue for you, for me, for all of us, and I know no matter how hard we all try some of that emotion is going to overflow in to our posts and come out as insult, personal attack, ad hom and name calling, but all I ask is that we try and tone it down and if we dont get it right the first time try, try again!


I will admit that I really liked Helen, especially when she was ripping Bush a new one and I am saddened that she is going out like this but I cant say I agree with her comments, obviously I do think she regrets the way she said it and would take it back if she could and I recognize that and would be willing to give her a pass, I also think Jeff is right that this may be more about the left speaking out than just her comments just about Jews, but again what she said is very hurtful to a lot of people and simply put you cant get away with that sort of thing these days, its a career suicide, especially if youre on the left.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:57 am

17breezes wrote:"I agree with her."

She thinks Jews should go back to Germany and Poland. And you agree with that racist fucking bullshit?


Are you fucking joking me? C'mon. Put yourself in just about anybodies shoes. Quit thinking like a rabbi with satan horns holmes. She's an 89 year old lady who fucking has seemed to CARE for the last half century. If you have your background, I have mine too.

My mother and father, my grandmother, my great grandfather have always said "hell yeah" to the questions Helen Thomas has posed to powerful "leaders" over the years. I ain't no satan horned rabbi (your pic bro). But I am a motherfucking American who comes from a line of people who gave a fuck about this motherfucking place back before we (ourselves) didn't give a fuck. I come from a long line of liberals and anti-racists who didn't know what the fuck was going on insofar as how it would end up today. They simply motherfucking cared about others and they and they had motherfucking heart. Granted they didn't use the term ""motherfucking" back then. But I am only a product of this time and place. So whatever Mr. Breezes.

I call on you now to be cool. The Palestinians have it tough. The Israelis have it tough. I am calling on your humanity asshole. Peer through this fucking propaganda for a sec. Just peer. You don't have to pounce on through. This shit is fucking bullshit and you fucking know it. Quit eating it, if you truly are a member of RI.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby 17breezes » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:43 am

82_28 wrote:
17breezes wrote:"I agree with her."

She thinks Jews should go back to Germany and Poland. And you agree with that racist fucking bullshit?


Are you fucking joking me? C'mon. Put yourself in just about anybodies shoes. Quit thinking like a rabbi with satan horns holmes. She's an 89 year old lady who fucking has seemed to CARE for the last half century. If you have your background, I have mine too.

My mother and father, my grandmother, my great grandfather have always said "hell yeah" to the questions Helen Thomas has posed to powerful "leaders" over the years. I ain't no satan horned rabbi (your pic bro). But I am a motherfucking American who comes from a line of people who gave a fuck about this motherfucking place back before we (ourselves) didn't give a fuck. I come from a long line of liberals and anti-racists who didn't know what the fuck was going on insofar as how it would end up today. They simply motherfucking cared about others and they and they had motherfucking heart. Granted they didn't use the term ""motherfucking" back then. But I am only a product of this time and place. So whatever Mr. Breezes.

I call on you now to be cool. The Palestinians have it tough. The Israelis have it tough. I am calling on your humanity asshole. Peer through this fucking propaganda for a sec. Just peer. You don't have to pounce on through. This shit is fucking bullshit and you fucking know it. Quit eating it, if you truly are a member of RI.


If you are saying one has to ACCEPT antisemitic crap like Thomas spewed to be a true member of RI, I think you are selling RI short. Sure, some may believe that the Jews need to go back to Poland and Germany; some have even said they would like to see Israel destroyed but I'm pretty sure few here support anti-semitic remarks like that beyond the small minority who support all that kind of shit.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:13 am

17breezes wrote:
82_28 wrote:
17breezes wrote:"I agree with her."

She thinks Jews should go back to Germany and Poland. And you agree with that racist fucking bullshit?


Are you fucking joking me? C'mon. Put yourself in just about anybodies shoes. Quit thinking like a rabbi with satan horns holmes. She's an 89 year old lady who fucking has seemed to CARE for the last half century. If you have your background, I have mine too.

My mother and father, my grandmother, my great grandfather have always said "hell yeah" to the questions Helen Thomas has posed to powerful "leaders" over the years. I ain't no satan horned rabbi (your pic bro). But I am a motherfucking American who comes from a line of people who gave a fuck about this motherfucking place back before we (ourselves) didn't give a fuck. I come from a long line of liberals and anti-racists who didn't know what the fuck was going on insofar as how it would end up today. They simply motherfucking cared about others and they and they had motherfucking heart. Granted they didn't use the term ""motherfucking" back then. But I am only a product of this time and place. So whatever Mr. Breezes.

I call on you now to be cool. The Palestinians have it tough. The Israelis have it tough. I am calling on your humanity asshole. Peer through this fucking propaganda for a sec. Just peer. You don't have to pounce on through. This shit is fucking bullshit and you fucking know it. Quit eating it, if you truly are a member of RI.


If you are saying one has to ACCEPT antisemitic crap like Thomas spewed to be a true member of RI, I think you are selling RI short. Sure, some may believe that the Jews need to go back to Poland and Germany; some have even said they would like to see Israel destroyed but I'm pretty sure few here support anti-semitic remarks like that beyond the small minority who support all that kind of shit.


I think that the American occupiers should get the hell out of Iraq (and over one hundred other countries).

Does that make me anti-American?

Or anti-christian, since the U.S. is mostly Christian nation?
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Jeff » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:23 am

Bruce Dazzling wrote:I think that the American occupiers should get the hell out of Iraq (and over one hundred other countries).


Wouldn't telling Europeans to get the hell out of the Americas be closer to the spirit of the remarks? All land is stolen. That doesn't mean it's fine to steal, it means we're all living off the avails. If that admission could begin a discussion, that may be a discussion worth having.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby AlicetheKurious » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:07 am

Jeff wrote:
Bruce Dazzling wrote:I think that the American occupiers should get the hell out of Iraq (and over one hundred other countries).


Wouldn't telling Europeans to get the hell out of the Americas be closer to the spirit of the remarks? All land is stolen. That doesn't mean it's fine to steal, it means we're all living off the avails. If that admission could begin a discussion, that may be a discussion worth having.


Not quite. Israel was in violation of existing international law at the time it was established, and has continuously violated international law since then, up to this very day. Among other ongoing crimes which its leaders openly vow to continue, the construction and expansion of racist Jewish colonies in Palestinian land represents a major crime under the Geneva Conventions. Israel's acceptance into the UN was conditional upon its acceptance of the Palestinian refugees' Right to Return to their own homes. As I've said many times before, America could continue to exist, and even thrive, without committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Like Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany however, Israel could not. This is not just my opinion, it is the near-unanimous opinion of the Israeli establishment, including senior strategists.

At the very least, Israel should be expelled from the United Nations and be boycotted by legitimate states and people of conscience until it agrees to live up to its legal obligations and acknowledges in word and deed that the Palestinian people and its other victims are human beings, something that it refuses to do.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:33 am

Just out of curiosity, why is it racist to be anti-Zionist? Is it also racist to want China out of Tibet or the British out of Northern Ireland?

Note that I am not anti-Zionist. I see a complicated situation, and a coin with two sides. But who has set the boundaries of this debate such that suggesting (even in a private conversation) that Israelites should vacate Palestinian land is a "racist" statement worthy of dismissal?
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby beeline » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:43 am

.

I've actually looked into living in Holland--my mother is off-the-boat-Dutch--but they won't have me. As it turns out, Holland is a sexist society, and if it had been my father that was Dutch, there would be no problem in my obtaining a Dutch passport. As it is my mother, however, fuggeaboutit.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:52 am

beeline wrote:.

I've actually looked into living in Holland--my mother is off-the-boat-Dutch--but they won't have me. As it turns out, Holland is a sexist society, and if it had been my father that was Dutch, there would be no problem in my obtaining a Dutch passport. As it is my mother, however, fuggeaboutit.


See you tomorrow my friend :P
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:55 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Bruce Dazzling wrote:I think that the American occupiers should get the hell out of Iraq (and over one hundred other countries).


Wouldn't telling Europeans to get the hell out of the Americas be closer to the spirit of the remarks? All land is stolen. That doesn't mean it's fine to steal, it means we're all living off the avails. If that admission could begin a discussion, that may be a discussion worth having.


Not quite. Israel was in violation of existing international law at the time it was established, and has continuously violated international law since then, up to this very day. Among other ongoing crimes which its leaders openly vow to continue, the construction and expansion of racist Jewish colonies in Palestinian land represents a major crime under the Geneva Conventions. Israel's acceptance into the UN was conditional upon its acceptance of the Palestinian refugees' Right to Return to their own homes. As I've said many times before, America could continue to exist, and even thrive, without committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Like Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany however, Israel could not. This is not just my opinion, it is the near-unanimous opinion of the Israeli establishment, including senior strategists.

At the very least, Israel should be expelled from the United Nations and be boycotted by legitimate states and people of conscience until it agrees to live up to its legal obligations and acknowledges in word and deed that the Palestinian people and its other victims are human beings, something that it refuses to do.


I was on my way to work, but I see that Alice answered during my commute better than I probably would have.

I'd like to add, however, that I welcome any HONEST discussion about any situation, including Israel/Palestine.

The point I was making here...

I think that the American occupiers should get the hell out of Iraq (and over one hundred other countries).

Does that make me anti-American?

Or anti-christian, since the U.S. is mostly Christian nation?


...is that no honest discussion of the situation is possible in an environment where any criticism is simply sloughed off as anti-thisism, or anti-thatism. It's entirely possible to despise what Israel has done in Gaza without categorically hating Jews, just as it is entirely possible to despise what the U.S. has done in Iraq, or Cambodia, or any number of other places without a categorical hatred of Americans, or Christians. That method of debate is a cul-de-sac mindfuck from the get-go, and as such, should be disallowed on any forum that purports to want an honest debate.

If I can be so bold as to speak for Mac and Nordic, et al., I believe that this is why they are so angry at the state of this board at the moment.

Every time a reasonable discussion about the Gaza situation gets under way, it is immediately derailed by unsubstantiated charges of antisemitism, and that, in turn, immediately destroys any honest intellectual discussion.

It is absolutely fucking mind-bending that RI, one of the very last places on earth for logical, well-reasoned, debate, has become yet another place where criticism of an apartheid regime is off limits by virtue of the dummed-down, race-baiting tactics that have been allowed.

And yes, I DO realize that Mac and Nordic ended up making personal attacks, but I think you need to understand, Jeff, that the tactics that led to those ad hominems are completely and utterly head-explodingly maddening.

And just because I've ended up turning this into a bit of a rant, I will ask this question:

Why is it ok to accuse someone of being an antisemite when all they have done is criticize the well-documented actions of a government?

Why on earth is that tolerated again and again and again?

As I've already said above, it completely ruins any chance of honest intellectual debate, but it's also just a low down, dirty fucking thing to do. Period. And again, it happens here all of the time now.

I've been here for 2.5 years, mostly as a lurker, but I've come out of my shell to a great degree in the past few months. I'm here because there are tons of brilliant minds here, and because every place else sucks. But, if we can't honestly express criticism of one particular government without being labeled a racist, then a topic central to the state of the entire world is off limits, and well, that is really lame.

</rant>
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby beeline » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:56 am

.

This series goes 7 :D Then we're BOTH crapping our pants Friday night :shock:
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Jeff » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:07 am

stickdog99 wrote:Just out of curiosity, why is it racist to be anti-Zionist? Is it also racist to want China out of Tibet or the British out of Northern Ireland?

Note that I am not anti-Zionist. I see a complicated situation, and a coin with two sides. But who has set the boundaries of this debate such that suggesting (even in a private conversation) that Israelites should vacate Palestinian land is a "racist" statement worthy of dismissal?


I think there may be confusion about what exactly she was saying, and she may have shared that confusion.

IMO, initially it seems she's suggesting Israel needs to vacate the territories, and that "Palestine" is equivalent to the West Bank and Gaza. But then, when she says the Jews need to go back home to Germany and America, "Palestine" apparently means the Palestine of the British Mandate, and that Israel needs to get out of the Middle East.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:15 am

"Any Better Comments?"

The Ambush of Helen Thomas

By GARY LEUPP

Outrage!

White House journalist Helen Thomas, covering a Jewish American Heritage Month celebration at the White House May 27, is accosted on the sidewalk by someone who asks: “Any comments about Israel? We’re asking everybody today---any comments about Israel?”

Smiling in grandmotherly fashion----the way an 89 year-old woman might do when suddenly approached by an 17 year old boy who seems sincerely interested in her thoughts---she replies: “Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.”

“Oooh…” responds the questioner. “Any better comments?” (A voice in the background: “Helen is fun!”)

“Hah hah hah,” laughs Helen. “ Remember these people are occupied, and it’s their land, not German, and not Poland.”

“So where should they go? What should they do?”

“They could go home. Poland. Germany.”

“Where’s home? You’re saying Jews should go back to Poland and Germany?”

“And America and everywhere else.”

A week later this video of the impromptu interview appears on “RabbiLIVE.com,” website of Rabbi David Nesenoff. (Who by the way is this “live rabbi”? Who is this rabbi character who’s terminated the career of a Washington press icon? How many journalists are even asking?)

The clip begins and ends with strident musical accompaniment, and concludes with the caption: “Six million Jews were killed in Germany and Poland. Does Helen know that Jews have lived in Israel way before the Holocaust. How can Helen report unbiased?”

According to one report the questioner was Adam Nesenoff, David’s son. The latter supposedly “sat on the Thomas scoop” for a week while his “webmaster son” Adam took final exams.

“So we waited,” Rabbi Nesenoff told Yahoo News. “And of course, during the waiting of it, the flotilla happened.” Nesenoff doesn’t explain how the Israeli assault on the Gaza aid flotilla connects to Helen or the timing of the video release. But clearly it (and perhaps Thomas’s comments about it?) influenced the timing of the video. And once it was online, the White House---which was not outraged at all by the murder of 9 aid workers by the “Israeli Defense Forces” last week---immediately condemned the journalist.

Nesenoff contacted her employer, Hearst Newspapers, telling them they had “to get rid of her.” They did.

Outrage! About what? A journalist is suddenly approached on the sidewalk by two high school students who say they’re asking everybody today if they have comments about Israel. (Might I ask: Why did this happen in the first place? Was this for a school project? Are there other filmed interviews young Adam would like to share, to prove that he and his friend were really fact “asking everybody” and not just Helen?)

“Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine.” This was obviously a totally spontaneous statement, and could mean simply, “Tell them to withdraw from the occupied territories, as demanded by the entire world.”

The interviewer responds with apparent humor, asking for more comments. So the veteran journalist says, “Remember these people are occupied, and it’s their land.” It is of course absolutely true that Zionists occupy Palestinian land. This fact, not the comment, is outrageous. Most people on the planet understand this.

“Where should they go?” asks the youth rhetorically, perhaps psyched for his gotcha moment. In this elliptical conversation, the “they” could have been interpreted by Helen, who has just mentioned “occupied” land, as referring to settlers on the West Bank or on the Golan Heights. The topic under discussion is Palestine, which in U.S. journalistic useage is more likely to refer to a future Palestinian state than to the state of Israel in its 1967 borders. But the video is skewed to make it seem as though Thomas said all Jews in Israel and the occupied territories should leave, and go back to places where mass murder occurred.

To those who care about fairness, I suggest that’s unfair. That’s not what Helen Thomas said. She said Israel should leave Palestine. When prompted to say where those referenced should go, she referred to countries with historically large Jewish populations. Lots of Israelis are in fact leaving Israel for those countries. (About 14,000 Israeli Jews left annually between 1990 and 2005. According to a 2007 poll, half of Israeli youth between ages 14 and 18 express the desire to live outside of Israel, which they see as having a bleak future. A huge percentage of Israelis has or plans to inquire about obtaining foreign nationality; many Europeans offer this generously to descendents of citizens who can prove their ancestry. The Berlin synagogue has 12,000 members and is flourishing. There are now maybe 55,000 Jews in Poland, many emigrating from Israel following Poland’s admission to the EU.)

It’s not clear exactly what Thomas was saying in this spontaneous, fragmentary sidewalk conversation with kids who said that they were, for some reason, asking “everyone to comment about Israel.” Rabbi Nesenoff says there are more excerpts to come, but it’s likely that the above piece is the most “controversial.”

But let’s just suppose that Thomas is saying that the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948 was itself a bad thing, a catastrophy for the indigenous Palestinian people. (These by the way almost surely include descendents of the ancient Judaeans. There was never a total dispersion---diaspora---of Jews from Roman Judaea. Following the rebellions against Roman rule in the province between 66 and 135, a large but undetermined number of Jews were driven from Judaea as punishment. But the Romans did not, and probably couldn’t have, thoroughly “dispersed” the Jews. Many remained, some becoming Christians and later, Muslims. It is altogether likely that the DNA of many Palestinians is closer to that of the first century Judaeans than to that of Jews with centuries of European ancestry. And by the first century there were already huge numbers of Jews outside Judaea, many voluntarily, constituting trading communities from Britain to India. St. Paul visited many synagogues in Anatolia and Greece and dreamed of preaching the Christian gospel to the Jews of Spain.)

Let’s say Thomas is saying that the Zionists should have stayed in Europe (where anti-Semitism has greatly diminished in the last half-century, typically flourishing now mainly as a result of Israeli policy towards Palestinians) rather than pursuing their agenda in Palestine under Turkish rule or the British mandate. Maybe she’s saying that it was wrong for the Zionists to terrorize Palestinians into fleeing their villages in the diaspora of 1948. Maybe she’s saying that it’s wrong for Israel to accept any Jew (as defined by the rabbinical establishment) as a citizen while denying hundreds of thousands of Arabs the right to return to their homeland. If so, many agree with her. I do, certainly.

But there are some who demand that we all accept a certain understanding of Israel. Everyone must, to avoid charges of anti-Semitism, agree on these points:

1. The establishment of the state of Israel was absolutely necessary, to prevent the annihilation of the Jewish people in a future holocaust. (This is of course an unproveable assertion. The global Jewish population today is about what it was in the 1910s---about 16 million---and if it is declining it’s mostly because of birth control and intermarriage. The prospect for future Auschwitzes seems minimal.)

2. The Jewish state must be within the boundaries of the ancient state of Israel, as it existed during the (legendary) reign of King David, as described in the Bible. It is the right of Jews to reconstitute that state, from which they were wrongly driven. It has always been theirs, no matter where they roamed. It is their “birthright” to live in Israel. (Tens of millions of Christian Zionists embrace this notion, noting that God, in the Bible, made the Jews his Chosen People and gave them that land. Enough said!)

3. The establishment of the modern state of Israel was the result of a just and humane struggle. The displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs was their own fault, or a consequence of propaganda from Arab regimes urging them to flee. (Israeli historians like the estimable Ilan Pappe have effectively disproven this.)

4. The occupation of the lands invaded in 1967 is necessary as a security measure against Arab anti-Semitism, irrational anti-Jewish hate. (You can maybe advocate withdrawal from the territories, and even promote a two-state solution, without being called anti-Semitic. But if you note matter-of-factly that the occupation is against international law, is cruelly implemented, and produces enormous suffering, expect charges of anti-Semitism.)

If you don’t agree that Israel is a moral exemplar and light to the world, “the only democracy in the Middle East” just attending reasonably to its security needs against a world that is (for no good reason) hostile to itself, you can be hounded, harrassed, intimidated, discredited, denied tenure, fired. Helen was fired. That’s the real outrage here.

“So we waited. And of course, during the waiting of it, the flotilla happened.” Yes. A 19 year old Turkish-American boy (among nine others) was shot to death at close range in the head and back in international waters by Israeli hijackers wo’ve subsequently claimed that that their victims wanted to “lynch” them. They effectively conveyed the message: “Don’t mess with Israel.” And then 89 year old Helen got ambushed (lynched?) by this innocent-looking kid on the street.

The message? Shut up, you critics of Israel, you terrorists, you anti-Semites!

I hope Helen Thomas keeps talking and writing. She’s understood and exposed the brutal realities of recent history, and is much too young to shut up now.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby SanDiegoBuffGuy » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:22 am

As I mentioned above, Jeff, there is some deal of ambiguity in her comments, especially near the end of the clip. There really is no inference of "Palestine" meaning the Palestine of the British Mandate. At the beginning she is saying "these people are occupied and it's their land." She is talking about people in the Occupied Territories here, not those who live within the recognized state of Israel. It gets muddy as it goes along and that muddiness is taken like a football and certain people are running with it. As I mentioned, it seems to be a problem with pronouns. Especially, "they" and "their".

It would be nice to hear a clarification coming from Thomas herself, but she has decided to apologize categorically to try to make people forget about it and move on.

Sorry to say, Jeff, but when you say that Thomas is meaning that "Israel needs to get out of the Middle East," you are making a BIG assumption. Do I dare say, "Shame on you"?
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