How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

[BrandonD]

I honestly don't understand the function of a post like this, in a forum like this. Is this really an "epidemic" worth addressing?

I agree with Jakell that "holocaust denial" or questioning that particular official story does not automatically imply anti-semitism, any more than questioning the official story of 9/11 automatically implies anti-Americanism. Those are really just tactics to shut people up.

I was not personally present at the holocaust, so in my reality it is within the realm of possibility that elements of it might be untrue. At the same time, the story as I understand it might also be entirely 100% accurate from top to bottom. This is simply being honest and impartial.

I keep this same intellectual distance with regard to all major historical events that have made a huge cultural impact, the holocaust is certainly not unique in that regard, so if the lack of a hard-line "conclusion" makes me anti-semitic then I suppose I'm also anti-every-other-religion-and-nationality-in-the-world.

It seems that having intellectual detachment has fallen out of fashion. We've made pathology fashionable.

[DrEvil]

Wouldn't it be easier if people just add the people they're referring to in front of 'Holocaust'?
The Jewish Holocaust, The Irish Holocaust, The Native-American Holocaust, etc.

I still think the Jewish Holocaust is more relevant today than many of the others, because (as far as I know) no one is advocating the extermination of the Irish, or claiming that the world is run by a secret cabal of Irish bankers.
People still want to wipe out the Jews.

[brainpanhandler]

@ Jakell,

Thank you for your thoughtful, well reasoned contributions. What you are saying may seem self evident on the face of it, but you'll have to fight and scratch for every inch. Don't let it get you down.

[brainpanhandler]

Wouldn't it be easier if people just add the people they're referring to in front of 'Holocaust'?
The Jewish Holocaust, The Irish Holocaust, The Native-American Holocaust, etc.

I still think the Jewish Holocaust is more relevant today than many of the others, because (as far as I know) no one is advocating the extermination of the Irish, or claiming that the world is run by a secret cabal of Irish bankers.
People still want to wipe out the Jews.

That should go without saying, but thanks for saying it.

[jakell]

I honestly don't understand the function of a post like this, in a forum like this. Is this really an "epidemic" worth addressing?

I agree with Jakell that "holocaust denial" or questioning that particular official story does not automatically imply anti-semitism, any more than questioning the official story of 9/11 automatically implies anti-Americanism. Those are really just tactics to shut people up.

I was not personally present at the holocaust, so in my reality it is within the realm of possibility that elements of it might be untrue. At the same time, the story as I understand it might also be entirely 100% accurate from top to bottom. This is simply being honest and impartial.

I keep this same intellectual distance with regard to all major historical events that have made a huge cultural impact, the holocaust is certainly not unique in that regard, so if the lack of a hard-line "conclusion" makes me anti-semitic then I suppose I'm also anti-every-other-religion-and-nationality-in-the-world.

It seems that having intellectual detachment has fallen out of fashion. We've made pathology fashionable.

I have spent some time amongst White nationalists and Neo Nazis, internet forums make it possible for me to converse with people that I find objectionable and who I would never otherwise have had a opportunity of exchanging ideas with. Maybe the reverse is true, I don't know if they value the experience to the same extent.

'Holocaust Denial' seems to have moved beyond a mere naysaying of historical events, but has taken on the flavour of one of the dogmas upholding a belief system. I see similarities with creationists who, in the final analysis, still assert their own internal beliefs and received dogmas over plainly overwelming evidence and reasoning. It can sometimes take quite a while to get to this point, but it is fascinating to witness when you get there. It is this that fascinates me, the delicate interweaving of the rational and irrational, all overseen by .... I don't know what, but I have to keep looking.

There is something here beyond history and politics (although it is immersed in them). Hitler stated that NS is/was far more than a political movement, and this element has kept the whole thing alive through the wilderness years. White Nationalists/supremacists have been banking on societal collapse, and have remained underground within traditional nationalisms biding their time. I have observed this within British Nationalism, and suspect it is the similar in the rest of Europe. America and Australia probably differ in some ways as their nationalisms are younger.

[jakell]

Wouldn't it be easier if people just add the people they're referring to in front of 'Holocaust'?
The Jewish Holocaust, The Irish Holocaust, The Native-American Holocaust, etc.

I still think the Jewish Holocaust is more relevant today than many of the others, because (as far as I know) no one is advocating the extermination of the Irish, or claiming that the world is run by a secret cabal of Irish bankers.
People still want to wipe out the Jews.

Yes it would, but we have so many instances of the Nazi Holocaust being referred to as 'The Holocaust', that it is probably simpler just to concede that one. The others could be qualified in the fashion you suggest here, however I don't see the problem with simply using the word 'genocide', it's actually more descriptive.

[jakell]

@ Jakell,

Thank you for your thoughtful, well reasoned contributions. What you are saying may seem self evident on the face of it, but you'll have to fight and scratch for every inch. Don't let it get you down.

I lurk here a lot, but due to the standard being very high, don't often feel up to contributing.

With this matter, and some similar stuff on TPV thread, that standard seemed to plummet (don't know why), so I didn't feel overwhelmed for once. This is also something I have some familiarity with.

[seemslikeadream]

Why does RI need an OP about the Jewish Holocaust on the front page every single day ....perpetually for 7 years?

WHY?

[Wombaticus Rex]

SLAD, best thing you could have done is not posted in this thread at all.

Why engage? If it gets you caps lock mad, don't engage. Especially when it is not directed at you....which is really isn't.

[seemslikeadream]

please answer my question....why is this topic deemed so important that AD must post a new OP or bump one of his old ones so there is at least one if not two or three threads on the front page at RI for 7 years now..

[bluenoseclaret]

Dr Evil

"...People still want to wipe out the Jews....".

Just curious, could you provide any evidence for this rather sweeping comment.

Jakell

"....White Nationalists/supremacists have been banking on societal collapse, and have remained underground within traditional nationalisms biding their time. I have observed this within British Nationalism,...."

I'm intrigued, could you provide any more info to support the above view.

Thanks

[jakell]

Dr Evil

"...People still want to wipe out the Jews....".

Just curious, could you provide any evidence for this rather sweeping comment.

Spend some time on a white nationalist/supremacist site and you will find that 'The Jews' are still regarded by these folks as the source of the world's ills and the direct enemy of the 'White Race'. You will hardly see genocidal directly feelings expressed, but it is the logical conclusion of their feelings. Neither did the Nazis express such things at the outset

Jakell

"....White Nationalists/supremacists have been banking on societal collapse, and have remained underground within traditional nationalisms biding their time. I have observed this within British Nationalism,...."

I'm intrigued, could you provide any more info to support the above view.

Thanks

It's all snippets gained from a several years of familiarity, but I've pretty much confirmed all these views to myself and have been fairly rigorous. they are fairly cagey about these things (paranoid even), but traditional British Nationalism (a la BNP) is pretty much a dead duck and these other characters have started to do their own thing. There are still some WN's who see themselves as achieving their aims within the present systems, but the more realistic ones are anticipating collapse, there was a good amount of hand rubbing over the situation in Greece and the Golden Dawn.
Feel free to ask any specific questions regarding this and I'll do my best.

[seemslikeadream]

This is NOT a white nationalist/supremacist site

but someone here seems to think it could very well turn into one


Ever vigilant AD....ever vigilant...keep those OP's a comin'

[minime]

Spend some time on a white nationalist/supremacist site and you will find that 'The Jews' are still regarded by these folks as the source of the world's ills and the direct enemy of the 'White Race'. You will hardly see genocidal directly feelings expressed, but it is the logical conclusion of their feelings. Neither did the Nazis express such things at the outset

And you had such promise.

[jakell]

Spend some time on a white nationalist/supremacist site and you will find that 'The Jews' are still regarded by these folks as the source of the world's ills and the direct enemy of the 'White Race'. You will hardly see genocidal directly feelings expressed, but it is the logical conclusion of their feelings. Neither did the Nazis express such things at the outset

And you had such promise.

The weird thing is that their obsession with the Jews as the great Satan means that wiping them out would remove a big focal point for them. White Supremacists, in their insistence that the White race is the best, need to find a reason for it's shortcomings, and the only fitting opponents (in their view) are the very clever but Machiavellian Jews, in that they could not consistently be defeated by a 'lesser race'.

WN/WS sort of need the Jews, but there's more. Spend some more time talking to them and reading their stuff, and you will gain the distinct impression that they are wannabe (Zionist) Jews ie they are a diaspora, that has a sense of genetic superiority and racial destiny. All that is missing is the strong cultural adhesion.

There's even a section of WN that speaks of White Zion (finally, something you can google), who wish to move to a certain part of the world, or even an established country and make it suitable for whites only via political and/or forced change. There's quite a bit of controversy within WN about this as some see it as defeatism.