Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

[seemslikeadream]

see now you had to go there...jewish banker


when I see the words Conspiracy Theory...these are what immediately comes to my mind.....

maybe you should have spelled out in detail what conspiracy theories were acceptable to you...which ones we were allowed to talk about....when I think of conspiracy theory...White Supremacy, Patriarchy, Capitalism, Homophobia never even made my top 40 list

1.The Dreyfus Affair
2.The Mafia
3.MK-ULTRA
4.Operation Mockingbird
5.Manhattan Project
6.Asbestos
7.Watergate
8.The Tuskegee Syphilis Study
9.Operation Northwoods
10.1990 Testimony of Nayirah
11.Counter Intelligence Programs Against Activists in the 60s
12.The Iran-Contra Affair
13.The BCCI Scandal
14.CIA Drug Running in LA
15.Gulf of Tonkin Never Happened
16.The Business Plot
17.July 20, 1944 Conspiracy to Assassinate Hitler
18.Operation Ajax
19.Operation Snow White
20.Operation Gladio
21. The Church Committee
22.The New World Order
23.Kennedy Assassination
24.1919 World Series Conspiracy
25.Karen Silkwood
26.CIA Drug Smuggling in Arkansas
27.Bohemian Grove
28.Operation Paperclip
29.The Round Table
30.The Illuminati
31.The Trilateral Commission
32.Big Brother or the Shadow Government
33.The Federal Reserve Bank
34. 9/11
35. WMD/Iraq
36. Megaliths
37. Ancient Aliens
38. how old the pyramids are
39. UFOs
40. Giants roam the earth
41. Big Foot

[American Dream]

see now you had to go there...jewish banker


when I see the words Conspiracy Theory...these are what immediately comes to my mind.....

maybe you should have spelled out in detail what conspiracy theories were acceptable to you...which ones we were allowed to talk about....when I think of conspiracy theory...White Supremacy, Patriarchy, Capitalism, Homophobia never even made my top 40 list

1.The Dreyfus Affair
2.The Mafia
3.MK-ULTRA
4.Operation Mockingbird
5.Manhattan Project
6.Asbestos
7.Watergate
8.The Tuskegee Syphilis Study
9.Operation Northwoods
10.1990 Testimony of Nayirah
11.Counter Intelligence Programs Against Activists in the 60s
12.The Iran-Contra Affair
13.The BCCI Scandal
14.CIA Drug Running in LA
15.Gulf of Tonkin Never Happened
16.The Business Plot
17.July 20, 1944 Conspiracy to Assassinate Hitler
18.Operation Ajax
19.Operation Snow White
20.Operation Gladio
21. The Church Committee
22.The New World Order
23.Kennedy Assassination
24.1919 World Series Conspiracy
25.Karen Silkwood
26.CIA Drug Smuggling in Arkansas
27.Bohemian Grove
28.Operation Paperclip
29.The Round Table
30.The Illuminati
31.The Trilateral Commission
32.Big Brother or the Shadow Government
33.The Federal Reserve Bank
34. 9/11
35. WMD/Iraq
36. Megaliths
37. Ancient Aliens
38. how old the pyramids are
39. UFOs
40. Giants roam the earth
41. Big Foot

You missed a key point- I'm not proscribing areas of investigation for others, just outlining the kind of projects I myself would like to work on- and the political/social frame that guides my efforts.

Personally, I think that all 41 areas of inquiry you cited represent interesting and valid research areas- with the big caveat that the Devil is in the details regarding what we do with and about those themes.

[Searcher08]

@Elvis
Future Search is great! - there is a whole field of meeting topologies - Open Space; Scenario Planning; Backcasting; Visual Mapping; World Cafe - that was my background (corporate facilitation) in a previous life...

@AD
I took what Elvis said as a project like this having to be inclusive of diverse participants - like myself.

OK- now I see it differently but to use the sharpest sort of contrast there is a big, big difference between say, a recommendation to get rid of the jewish bankers and/or to live in eco-villages trading gold vs. say, to opposing Capital and the State by organizing grassroots workers- waged and unwaged- into an independent but coordinated force of resistance rooted in anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-fascist principles.

I'm just laying out a thumbnail sketch and I want to be clear that I am not advocating the more prescriptive forms of agit-prop, but the point should be obvious. Not that I deny that there are jewish bankers who have done wrongful things, or am against trading in gold or living in eco-villages per se...

This is where we bang up against things like logic - and which logic we use. For example you see those things as being exclusive and non-intersecting; if your logic is binary then everything stops - and a 'Relevance War' starts. If a different logic is used (where A and Not-A can both be used together) then the conversation becomes an inclusive 'map making' process. The devil is in the details effect often gets diffused when we start dealing in real sensory detail e.g in what 'agit-prop' looks sounds and feels like - for example in that late lamented unfinished conversation where I was trying to 'model' what you describe as activism. It was full of surprises and not at all how I (or several other folks) imagined it.

[American Dream]

This is where we bang up against things like logic - and which logic we use. For example you see those things as being exclusive and non-intersecting; if your logic is binary then everything stops - and a 'Relevance War' starts. If a different logic is used (where A and Not-A can both be used together) then the conversation becomes an inclusive 'map making' process.

I don't think so- see for example my comments on jewish bankers, eco-villages and gold. I'm all up for a Matt Taibbi piece on some banking scandal involving some jewish financiers, think eco-villages are intriguing but often too expensive and while I don't think gold is the cure for all our economic ills, I'm really good with "living outside the System" material.

It's more that for what I want to do personally, I would expand upon and tighten up these sorts of themes, along the lines suggested by the original post.

[BrandonD]

As to the "unwashed masses"- yes the question of audience also helps focus the question of goals. As to banner- we make the road by walking- this important question must develop organically with the narratives and investigations developed. And implementation activities- I think about this a lot, wonder about what made the late 60's/early 70's such a potent time in U.S. history- the history I best know.

There is another element of the 60s and 70s that is unique to this time, which is huge influx of psychedelic drugs. I really think there is a correlation. This is not necessarily an endorsement of drugs but rather of any process that shakes or disrupts indoctrinated reality structures - momentarily breaking the hypnotic force being applied to the culture at large, keeping everyone operating below their potential.

In theory.

[American Dream]

As to the "unwashed masses"- yes the question of audience also helps focus the question of goals. As to banner- we make the road by walking- this important question must develop organically with the narratives and investigations developed. And implementation activities- I think about this a lot, wonder about what made the late 60's/early 70's such a potent time in U.S. history- the history I best know.

There is another element of the 60s and 70s that is unique to this time, which is huge influx of psychedelic drugs. I really think there is a correlation. This is not necessarily an endorsement of drugs but rather of any process that shakes or disrupts indoctrinated reality structures - momentarily breaking the hypnotic force being applied to the culture at large, keeping everyone operating below their potential.

In theory.

I agree- to a point- but also think the drugs were a double edged sword, along the lines suggested by the "TIDS" thread..

[BrandonD]

As to the "unwashed masses"- yes the question of audience also helps focus the question of goals. As to banner- we make the road by walking- this important question must develop organically with the narratives and investigations developed. And implementation activities- I think about this a lot, wonder about what made the late 60's/early 70's such a potent time in U.S. history- the history I best know.

There is another element of the 60s and 70s that is unique to this time, which is huge influx of psychedelic drugs. I really think there is a correlation. This is not necessarily an endorsement of drugs but rather of any process that shakes or disrupts indoctrinated reality structures - momentarily breaking the hypnotic force being applied to the culture at large, keeping everyone operating below their potential.

In theory.

I agree- to a point- but also think the drugs were a double edged sword, along the lines suggested by the "TIDS" thread..

Yes I agree. Psychedelics have a positive side to them, but also some very negative side-effects - which I've personally experienced!

[BrandonD]

As I see it, one thrust of this thread is a desire to sort of re-brand conspiracy topics as something not related to extreme right-wing politics and racism/homophobia, etc?

I never thought there was a connection when I was younger and interested in these subjects, but after visiting internet forums and ESPECIALLY after the Obama term, conspiracy ideas seem almost exclusively associated with right-wing wackos in the mainstream public consciousness.

It would be nice to change that perception.

[jakell]

As I see it, one thrust of this thread is a desire to sort of re-brand conspiracy topics as something not related to extreme right-wing politics and racism/homophobia, etc?

I never thought there was a connection when I was younger and interested in these subjects, but after visiting internet forums and ESPECIALLY after the Obama term, conspiracy ideas seem almost exclusively associated with right-wing wackos in the mainstream public consciousness.

It would be nice to change that perception.

Possibly they tend to emerge most from the groups that are, or at least perceive themselves to be, disenfranchised.

[Elvis]

@AD
I took what Elvis said as a project like this having to be inclusive of diverse participants - like myself.

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry for being unclear.

On the other hand,

an investigation of the nexus between international fascist terror gangs and drug networks would not have to be (rigorously) comprehensive and inclusive of all social problems in order to identify problems and point to changes.

That takes me back to the Future Search second principle: Exploring all aspects of a system before trying to fix any part -- that problems exist in a matrix and should be treated holistically.

Yes, counter fascism for what it is by itself, small victories are great. But all the best-written articles (which few pro-fascists will even read) and sternest street clubbings (which only steel their hatreds), are not likely to change much.

If the aim of the proposed Theory is, as spelled out in your OP -- "to investigate and expose real conspiracies through investigations that can be backed by strong evidence, investigations that have the potential to seriously benefit our lives through significantly advancing our collective liberation" and "develop Conspiracy Theory (with a capital "T") that is solidly anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-authoritarian, anti-misogynist and also intelligently thought out" -- the scope then should be broad and deep.

That said, your stated aim is commendable as far as I can see, and I'd expect that just about any reasonably clear and concise Theory emerging from your individual values, interests and methods, would be a good one, and a good effort toward a rigorous and radical 'general' Conspiracy Theory, but would it get all the way there?


To refer again to the Future Search meetings process, introduced to me just today by Searcher*, these common causes of failure are worth consideration:

There is a vast literature documenting successful Future Searches. There also have been notable failures that people need to be aware of. The most common causes of failure are:

Non-interdependent groups (people who do not need each other).

Issues on which most participants do not wish to act.

Key actors missing.

Allowing too little time for the size of the task.

Overactive/controlling facilitation.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Sea ... Conference

* This is one reason I'd probably want Searcher involved in a collaboration of theorizers theorizing about conspiracies of collaborators: I've noticed on the forum he's offered some useful insights into thinking processes and group dynamics, and gained those to some extent by professional training and experience. I'd have to search the board to ascertain his 'politics' and all that -- and do I really want or need to plug him into an ideological 'slot' that might end up blocking an honest communication? As far as I can see, his worst offenses on this forum have been insisting on completely open inquiries, and, worse, a few apostrophe errors.

[BrandonD]

I like this idea! With the ridiculous amount of information now available, and with different people "specializing" in different areas of the conspiracy, it seems what is really needed is a network of people to collectively assimilate this information and establish an over-arching narrative model that best explains all the events.

One problem I always tend to see in larger Conspiracy Theories is that there exists a predetermined narrative which tends to dictate which aspects of the Conspiracy are considered most crucial or fundamental.

What aspects do those here consider most crucial? If the ideas are quite divergent then it might be necessary to establish a consensus on a certain number of foundational points.

[coffin_dodger]

The term 'Conspiracy Theory' is fraught with problems. In my observation, (as a conspiracy-minded individual), the majority of citizens (with any kind of above the level of poverty economic, or influential, power) in the western world, shy away from entertaining the idea of conspiracies, because the consequences of unmasking reality and really having to deal with some heavy shit would shatter any level of equilibrium they have in their lives. Comfortably numb is preferable to uncomfortably alive.

Those that are of a conspiracy mind, who wish to discuss the pressing issues, can be conveniently deflected in the mind of the comfortably numb by the old adage "oh, they are a conspiracist, they must be right-wing, racist or fascist" i.e. a bit crackpot.
Easy. Job done. Phew! No need to think about those unsettling thoughts, should there be any validity in what the nutty conspiracy theorist was blabbing on about.

For the vast, vast majority of conpiracy theorists, this is an unjust appraisal, though understandable. I'd possibly rather not think about all of the problems we face if I had the capacity (and desire) to block them out. But I don't.

RI (I think) is a conspiracy theory board. JFK, aliens, alternate consciousness, 911, power structures, deep politics - trying to see the relative truth behind the relative untruths. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I joined because it seemed unique. I still haven't stumbled across anything else like this place in nearly 20 years on the net. A place where (with high hopes), given the contingent ongoing input, some way out might be glimpsed - from amongst the people that dare to think about possible futures - and how to avoid the unpleasant ones.

However, just as the comfortably numb have coping mechanism for the (in their eyes) shite that conspiracists talk, many theorists have their own coping method too - the boogeyman. The scary isms that haven't got much, if any, power - but just imagine if they did. Unfortunately for those in its grip, those aren't the systems that individuals looking to make a change should be focusing on - the system where we are now, is.

Subjectively, if I visited this board for the first time tomorrow as a vaguely-intrepid comfortably numb, I would probably note the constant 'top of the discussion topics' fascism related threads. There are two ways of looking at this. Indeed, they are anti-fascist and anti-semetic in nature, but nonetheless they are about Fascism and anti-semetism. As a CNer (that's a comfortably number), I could begin to get turned off the whole conspiracy theorist vibe - because the old adage appears pretty much spot on.

Fascism may well be resurging again - but in the absence of anything new, it's bound to.

We should maybe have an area (of less pressure) in the lounge, where personal thoughts on achieving a better way can be aired, whilst others can chip in with ideas/ways to achieve it, that we cannot see ourselves.

[American Dream]

That takes me back to the Future Search second principle: Exploring all aspects of a system before trying to fix any part -- that problems exist in a matrix and should be treated holistically.

Yes, counter fascism for what it is by itself, small victories are great. But all the best-written articles (which few pro-fascists will even read) and sternest street clubbings (which only steel their hatreds), are not likely to change much.

If the aim of the proposed Theory is, as spelled out in your OP -- "to investigate and expose real conspiracies through investigations that can be backed by strong evidence, investigations that have the potential to seriously benefit our lives through significantly advancing our collective liberation" and "develop Conspiracy Theory (with a capital "T") that is solidly anti-fascist, anti-racist, anti-authoritarian, anti-misogynist and also intelligently thought out" -- the scope then should be broad and deep.

That said, your stated aim is commendable as far as I can see, and I'd expect that just about any reasonably clear and concise Theory emerging from your individual values, interests and methods, would be a good one, and a good effort toward a rigorous and radical 'general' Conspiracy Theory, but would it get all the way there?

I suppose it depends on the particulars, on one's goals, etc.

Ideologically rigid racist/fascist types do sometimes change, especially if they are very young. That said, there may be more of a chance for impact with the onllokers, the swing vote- the people who are targets of recruiting efforts. At least to me, that is more of the point. And that the Nazis don't get free play- they should not have the run of the place- any place.

Also, though it certainly is true that there is a place for big picture brainstorming- often with as diverse of a group as possible.

[American Dream]

However, just as the comfortably numb have coping mechanism for the (in their eyes) shite that conspiracists talk, many theorists have their own coping method too - the boogeyman. The scary isms that haven't got much, if any, power - but just imagine if they did. Unfortunately for those in its grip, those aren't the systems that individuals looking to make a change should be focusing on - the system where we are now, is.

Subjectively, if I visited this board for the first time tomorrow as a vaguely-intrepid comfortably numb, I would probably note the constant 'top of the discussion topics' fascism related threads. There are two ways of looking at this. Indeed, they are anti-fascist and anti-semetic in nature, but nonetheless they are about Fascism and anti-semetism. As a CNer (that's a comfortably number), I could begin to get turned off the whole conspiracy theorist vibe - because the old adage appears pretty much spot on.

Fascism may well be resurging again - but in the absence of anything new, it's bound to.

I've wrestled for many years with the idea of anti-fascism as political praxis. I'd say that grassroots racialists/racists and statist fascist types as well as all the different forms of the Revolutionary Right are bad, are a problem- but very much so in the conspiracy world. And of course that is where we find ourselves in this moment.

In general, anti-fascism is an important strand in a much more complicated tapestry- but it is an essential strand.

[BrandonD]

The term 'Conspiracy Theory' is fraught with problems. In my observation, (as a conspiracy-minded individual), the majority of citizens (with any kind of above the level of poverty economic, or influential, power) in the western world, shy away from entertaining the idea of conspiracies, because the consequences of unmasking reality and really having to deal with some heavy shit would shatter any level of equilibrium they have in their lives. Comfortably numb is preferable to uncomfortably alive.

Those that are of a conspiracy mind, who wish to discuss the pressing issues, can be conveniently deflected in the mind of the comfortably numb by the old adage "oh, they are a conspiracist, they must be right-wing, racist or fascist" i.e. a bit crackpot.
Easy. Job done. Phew! No need to think about those unsettling thoughts, should there be any validity in what the nutty conspiracy theorist was blabbing on about.

For the vast, vast majority of conpiracy theorists, this is an unjust appraisal, though understandable. I'd possibly rather not think about all of the problems we face if I had the capacity (and desire) to block them out. But I don't.

RI (I think) is a conspiracy theory board. JFK, aliens, alternate consciousness, 911, power structures, deep politics - trying to see the relative truth behind the relative untruths. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I joined because it seemed unique. I still haven't stumbled across anything else like this place in nearly 20 years on the net. A place where (with high hopes), given the contingent ongoing input, some way out might be glimpsed - from amongst the people that dare to think about possible futures - and how to avoid the unpleasant ones.

However, just as the comfortably numb have coping mechanism for the (in their eyes) shite that conspiracists talk, many theorists have their own coping method too - the boogeyman. The scary isms that haven't got much, if any, power - but just imagine if they did. Unfortunately for those in its grip, those aren't the systems that individuals looking to make a change should be focusing on - the system where we are now, is.

Subjectively, if I visited this board for the first time tomorrow as a vaguely-intrepid comfortably numb, I would probably note the constant 'top of the discussion topics' fascism related threads. There are two ways of looking at this. Indeed, they are anti-fascist and anti-semetic in nature, but nonetheless they are about Fascism and anti-semetism. As a CNer (that's a comfortably number), I could begin to get turned off the whole conspiracy theorist vibe - because the old adage appears pretty much spot on.

Fascism may well be resurging again - but in the absence of anything new, it's bound to.

We should maybe have an area (of less pressure) in the lounge, where personal thoughts on achieving a better way can be aired, whilst others can chip in with ideas/ways to achieve it, that we cannot see ourselves.

I like that idea, I'm all for a more casual free-flowing discussion of this idea. If you create such an area please let me know.

An analogy I see of this subject is something like a central black spot around which all the winds of culture blow, the winds curve around this spot creating the impression of a coherent and complete area, though there is an empty blind spot. In the center of that spot is the central foundation of the conspiracy. Spinning out from it are little whirlwinds, products of the convoluted weather created by this storm of blindness.

Fascism in my opinion is a whirlwind created from the central dark spot, and not a foundational part of the conspiracy.

But then again, this touches upon the great divide among conspiracy-minded people. There are those who think the conspiracy is primarily material; ie politicians and bankers and CIA and mafia, etc - and there are those like myself who think that the conspiracy ultimately originates in a realm that is unseen or "spiritual".

Depending on your point of view on that particular subject, this reflects quite a bit on what aspects of the world of conspiracy are considered most important or fundamental.