It's a Man's World!

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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:59 am

I hope slomo you're understanding that your appeals to your idea of fairness, justice, evidence, etc. may be worthwhile

but you're up against (at least in case of large segments of feminism) parties that have zero interest in any of the above ideals, at least in the ways you conceive of them

At least some versions of "feminist epistemology" would want to throw out all of your data since the facts might go against the conclusions its practicioners had arrived at in advance, and since your data might have originated with non-feminists, or might create problems for their mood/feelings/affect (and yes the aversion to your information would very possibly be explained in literally these terms.)

Even leaving this flaky end of the spectrum behind, most feminism is based on will-to-power, not logic, and openly admits this. This is why responses to any "unfairness" by feminism are going to get a lot more traction if they play the same game as will be transgressive, subversive, politically incorrect forms of masculinity that are due to grow at a faster and faster accelerating pace in the collapsing West. Polite, logical mens' rights arguments are just as or almost as completely socially unacceptable, anyways.

As silly as this all this may sound, at the same time I also think that even taking a sober, grown-up look at this stuff, part of the answer to your concerns is to look beyond appeals to a neutral/universal standard of arbitration, since if we dig deep enough there really isn't one - I think I get what you're doing with this thread and I don't want to derail or support it, I'm just curious what the bigger project is

I'm interested in how you feel about feminist arguments like the utopian "theory of consent" I referred to in an earlier post. These really move the Overton Window light-years towards a Feminist Singularity/Peak Feminism, way, way beyond the kind of relatively moderate feminist ideas you're arguing against - and it's this more radical stuff that younger people are really getting passionate about, anyways.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:38 am

tapitsbo » 05 Dec 2015 22:59 wrote:I hope slomo you're understanding that your appeals to your idea of fairness, justice, evidence, etc. may be worthwhile

but you're up against (at least in case of large segments of feminism) parties that have zero interest in any of the above, at least in the ways you conceive of them

At least some versions of "feminist epistemology" would want to throw out all of your data since it goes against the conclusions its practicioners had arrived at in advance, and since your data might create problems for their mood/feelings/affect (and yes the aversion to your information would be explained in literally these terms.)

As silly as this is, at the same time I think part of the answer to your concerns is to look beyond appeals to a neutral/universal standard of arbitration, since if we dig deep enough there really isn't one - I think I get what you're doing with this thread and I don't want to derail or support it, I'm just curious what the bigger project is.

I certainly understand what you're saying, that ultimately there is no true objectivity. However, science as a methodology tries to be as objective as possible (institutional Science is a whole other matter). Feminist epistemology almost always boils down to this: "I feel it, so it must be true." At an individual level, this can work, because after all we can only perceive the world through our own eyes. Where it breaks down is in its application to social policy, because everybody feels something different, and when you base social policy purely on feelings, you are automatically privileging one group's feelings over another group's. This is always a recipe for injustice.

So I have two problems with feminism. The first is that its adherents have made it very clear that they intend feminism to drive social policy, even though its claims are essentially faith-based. Without an evidence basis for its claims, this will lead only to unjust outcomes. For example, based on statistics whose veracity has been questioned (although admittedly the critisms are very controversial, so I wouldn't necessarily assume just yet that the counter-claims themselves are correct), there is now widespread support in some circles for eliminating due process in sexual assault cases -- do you really think that when it becomes established precedent to dispense with due process for one crime, it will stop there? For those concerned about fascism, this trend should really be alarming.

The second problem has to do with feminism as a form of religion. Even as a faith-based doctrine, feminism (or, to be fair, the more extreme versions thereof) falls short in providing life-enhancing inspiration. It reinforces a victim stance and encourages gender resentment. As such, it is life-negating. There's a reason why happily married heterosexual women are at most "feminist-lite" and eschew the more radical formulations: they aren't stuck in the man-hating resentment that blocks them from intimacy with men. I've seen so many women get sucked into the black hole of increasingly toxic feminism, and it doesn't make them happy, loving, or compassionate people.

I can't do much about the second issue: we all need something to believe in, and if a person's spiritual trajectory requires the lesson inherent in feminist ideology, so be it. But I can at least advocate for evidence-based social policy. Even acknowledging the problems inherent in quantifying complicated social processes (I make a living doing that for biomedical problems, and it's hard enough in that domain), we are better off at least putting a good-faith effort into objectivity than abandoning the social project to a free-for-all power grab.

There's no way I can convince the true-believers. They'll double down on their position, and that's their right. I'm trying to reach a different audience, one that is open to seeing that feminist ideology, as it is currently formulated in the 21st Century, demonizes men, and therefore feeds the social alienation from which we are all suffering. I don't care whether people still call themselves "feminists" or not, so much as whether they can see men and women both as ultimately and fundamentally human.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:45 am

Just going by your last sentence, maybe it's ideas about human dignity that we really need to be working on - and then solving these gender disputes will become a lot more intuitive. I think that the current dominant modern visions of justice/equality/fairness are pretty much bound to collapse into these sorts of squabbles, though

Personally I feel women (especially across the planet) DO have a lot of problems specific to them - warped and flaky versions of feminism could be said to be doing them a disservice, or could be said to be just provocative enough to cause conflict that leads to changes. I guess you could say men have specific problems too, varying with other factors

Even scientific objectivity (which itself is ultimately best defined as an institutional practice according to some philosophers of science) doesn't have a neutral stake in any of this - and that's exactly why many more passionate strains of feminism have been so persuasive, whatever their faults might be.

If men want to figure their shit out, they will have to likewise "dig deep" into the background of their problems and strategies for responding, imho, not reach for a quick fix of seeing what battles of legalistic equivalence can be won. Ironically men's issues are much, much deeper than just "protecting against evil versions of feminism"... I don't have all the answers, but it's striking to me how much the MRA movement resembles somebody banging their head on a wall a lot of the time
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:57 am

On theory of consent: big quagmire. I don't actually believe it comes from an honest place. Wearing my tinfoil hat, I would be willing to believe that modern young feminists are just the "useful idiots" for dispensing with due process. But that's just conspiracy theory.

It should be obvious that I believe that sex must be consensual, but using the established meaning of "consent". Alcohol is problematic, because many if not most people have sex under some condition of at least light inebriation, so the question of consent and alcohol/drug use becomes a question of where, on the spectrum, can one legitimately consent. The fact that sex is almost entirely driven by nonverbal cues also makes it hard to definitively confirm that the other party has consented, without "ruining the vibe". It's healthy and necessary to have ongoing discussions about these issues, understanding that it may be difficult to come up with a standard that will achieve the clarity we would like in the legal system. I am steadfastly against the idea of "revoked consent", i.e. the idea that one party can offer consent at one moment, then revoke it after the fact. (By "after the fact", I mean really after ... if someone says "stop" in the middle of the act, the other party is obligated to stop.)

It seems necessary for me to state that while I do think sexual assult happens (there are plenty of assholes in the world, and the current offerings at r/theRedPill only reinforce my opinions about that), I think a lot of what people are talking about on college campuses stems from miscommunication. The solution isn't to make campus more hostile and punitive, the solution is to encourage discussion about communication, and (I hate to say it) discourage alcohol and promiscuity, as much as can be done without being too preachy. However, this last ideal may actually be Utopian on my part.

I also want to remind folks that men can be sexually assaulted by women. I've read numerous stories of men who were coerced into sex by women, and the way the coercion worked was not by physical domination, but by social domination. It does happen. And why not? Women are sexual beings, and men have preferences and standards that would cause them to decline a sexual encounter.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:10 am

I'm talking about a much more crazy theory of consent than any of the already questionable ones getting traction on college campuses...
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:12 am

This is what I wrote the other day, it's actually a step beyond anything you'd hear about even in most progressive media

Here's a darkly funny anecdote about gender politics I just remembered: I recall, about a year ago, someone in my family deeply involved in queer feminism posting a blog article (I'll dig it up sometime, maybe) that argued that consent is something that can be, based on feelings, withdrawn from past actions at any time after intimacy by any involved parties. Anything can be deemed rape according to a change of feelings, yes, even if there is a recording of unambiguous, affirmative consent. Of course, since the author believed state justice is inherently oppressive violence, the punishment for said rape should be shunning by "the community" so the perpetrator can process their place in a causal chain of someone else's wounded affect. I trust the wise readers here can imagine some of the unfortunate scenarios that would result from this set-up...


It's an idea that consent isn't just something that happens during sex but is "carried forward" for the rest of someone's life and can always be revoked - anyways theoretically I guess it wouldn't just be women that could invoke this. Then again, slightly more moderate versions of this theory seemed based in an idea that most consent is coerced by structural oppression therefore it's all rape, anyways

I'm not sure what leads people to come up with this stuff. It might not be in good faith but in part it is the product of sincere belief. It's not the same thing as trolling...
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:15 am

tapitsbo » 05 Dec 2015 23:45 wrote:If men want to figure their shit out, they will have to likewise "dig deep" into the background of their problems, imho, not reach for a quick fix of seeing what battles of legalistic equivalence can be won. I don't have all the answers, but it's striking to me how much the MRA movement resembles somebody banging their head on a wall a lot of the time

They do, but what comes up often isn't pretty. See r/theRedPill, Jack Donovan, etc.

The advantage of focusing on issues where data can be collected is that data exist and are harder to dispute (harder, not impossible, because every study has some design flaw). Reaching back into the depths of evolutionary psychology (e.g.) is error-prone, probably at least 50% bullshit, and counterproductive to the goal of upholding human dignity. I won't say it isn't interesting, even compelling sometimes, but it is absolutely not helpful for what I'm trying to achieve in my life.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:18 am

Well the evo-psych route is just one route, and not one I support

Red-pill stuff isn't super interested in human dignity, you're right! Like you say it is at least trying to understand how we got here not just complaining "feminism isn't fair" (effective feminists will be the first to tell you they aren't interested in being fair - and your example of moderate happy wives or whatever isn't that relevant because these aren't the people driving feminism as a cultural and political force). I think other ideas that are less empty and rooted in resentment than red-pill bullshit will come about in the future.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:26 am

tapitsbo » 06 Dec 2015 00:12 wrote:This is what I wrote the other day, it's actually a step beyond anything you'd hear about even in most progressive media

Here's a darkly funny anecdote about gender politics I just remembered: I recall, about a year ago, someone in my family deeply involved in queer feminism posting a blog article (I'll dig it up sometime, maybe) that argued that consent is something that can be, based on feelings, withdrawn from past actions at any time after intimacy by any involved parties. Anything can be deemed rape according to a change of feelings, yes, even if there is a recording of unambiguous, affirmative consent. Of course, since the author believed state justice is inherently oppressive violence, the punishment for said rape should be shunning by "the community" so the perpetrator can process their place in a causal chain of someone else's wounded affect. I trust the wise readers here can imagine some of the unfortunate scenarios that would result from this set-up...


It's an idea that consent isn't just something that happens during sex but is "carried forward" for the rest of someone's life and can always be revoked - anyways theoretically I guess it wouldn't just be women that could invoke this. Then again, slightly more moderate versions of this theory seemed based in an idea that most consent is coerced by structural oppression therefore it's all rape, anyways

I'm not sure what leads people to come up with this stuff. It might not be in good faith but in part it is the product of sincere belief. It's not the same thing as trolling...

I intentially ignored that because it's a volatile topic. It should seem obvious that withdrawing consent after the fact is acting in total bad faith, and the only way somebody can genuinely believe that this is a morally correct stance is if they believed they belong to a superior class of beings worthy of greater rights and privileges than other classes. How is this not hierarchical domination?

But, honestly? Besides the fact that I strongly disagree with the idea, I just think these people are being played, i.e. they are useful idiots. I suspect there are cultural forces driven from above that are encouraging this nonsense, with the goal of achieving total alienation among non-elite humans. Even if these forces aren't ultimately of human agency, one could posit a metaphysical process involved (e.g. Steiner's Ahriman, or some of the stuff Charles Upton writes about). But, obviously, this is totally conjecture, as if any kind of evidence basis could be established for such a claim!
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby 82_28 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:37 am

You're not allowed to do that! Men are largely not allowed to have feelings. Goddamn have I gone out of my way to assuage people I loved with all kinds of shit women have to have. Flowers, fucking jewelry, calling shit off when shit could become awkward. Feminists/women have it pretty damn easy. If on the bus for instance, I give up my seat for a woman should she be forced to stand. You always hold the door open for a woman first. In the restaurant industry you are always told to take the woman's order first and then serve her first. Ladies, it is the way it is. It is not a man's world.

As a side, which thankfully does not exist any longer, many places that served alcohol legally had to keep women in their seats once upon served. They were not allowed to mingle with an alcoholic drink and nor could they order it for themselves. A man had to do it. I'm not gonna look it up since I have too much work to do. But I did a post on this a few years ago on another site. Seattle at least did away with this law in the late 60s.

Trixie, bring me a sandwich. Which, when I last sat with my boss, every time I went down to the cafeteria I asked her if she would like anything. It wasn't no hitting on her, it was just common courtesy. I would do it for anyone or even animals and ghosts or whatever.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby 82_28 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:49 am

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:50 am

Not displaying feelings is different from not having them. The fact that it is not socially acceptable for men to show feelings (likely a biological constraint, ultimately arising from mammalian biology/psychology) does not mean we don't actually have them.

That men don't have internal lives ... that is the father of all lies upon which modern virulent feminism rests.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby American Dream » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:08 am

Taking Account of our Politics: An Anarchist Perspective on Contending with Sexual Violence

http://www.linchpin.ca/?q=content/takin ... l-violence

MRA movements may seem like a departure in an article primarily focused on sexual assault, but we see a link. Not only do MRAs directly address sexual assault, but they are a social movement organizing around sexism. In order to combat sexism and sexual violence, we need to be active both in dealing with direct instances of sexual assault, and in countering broader social movements, such as MRAs and anti-abortion activists, who actively oppose women’s liberation. As with accountability processes, we have struggled to understand how best to counter these groups. What can we do beyond the counter-demonstration? How do we address groups that form in response to perceived declines in male privilege? How do we apply our understanding of the current terrain of patriarchy in ways that can lead to meaningful actions?

The overall goal of this article is to link our actions around sexual violence, our political, social, and economic understanding of gender oppression, and possibilities for activism against patriarchy into a coherent whole. This does not spell an end to our mistakes. Unfortunately, fuck-ups are likely to continue. Rather, this is an attempt to understand our experiences of the past four years ― hammered out in boring procedural discussions, emotional outbursts, and some clear, collective discussion ― politically. It is an attempt to learn from our mistakes and our successes, to make better attempts, better failures, and better analysis in the future.



Developing our Politics on Sexual Violence

When confronting an incident of sexual assault, we strive for clear and definitive answers and direction, both in terms of how to best deal with the particular situation and how to work more broadly toward confronting sexual assault politically. Too often feminists have looked for fundamental or reductionist truths to guide their response, mistaking hard lines for clarity. Political accountability, instead, looks to complexity in order to find direction. There is a complex interplay of economic factors, such as the gendered division of labour and the oppression of women who are forced to take on the vast majority of unpaid and low-paid reproductive labour. More sociological factors also play a role, such as the extreme objectification of women's bodies in media and mainstream culture. There is a long history of men claiming ownership and entitlement to women's bodies, and this is seen clearly in the way marriage is treated in relatively recent laws around rape. Race, colonialism, heterosexism, and ableism all interact with sexual assault. And reproductive justice, in its broadest sense, has strong links with sexual assault―women of colour, poor women, and disabled women being forcibly sterilized by the State seems like one of the very clearest examples of sexual violence.

Political accountability seeks to look at how these factors impact on issues of sexual violence honestly and complexly, without drawing forced equivalencies. That is to say that, while patterns of sexual violence are influenced by gendered divisions of labour and wealth, they also occur in great numbers in cases where there is no economic relationship between parties. The forced simplicity of both liberal feminists and MRAs―for example, MRAs' focus on gender imbalances in prisons, without any consideration of other factors or broader issues―is a type of gender reductionism that we hope to avoid. But being nuanced should not be confused with being soft: a perpetrator of assault is a class traitor, like a white supremacist, carrying out a devastating form of intra-class violence against those he holds privilege and power over. We should be harsh, but we should be clear why we're doing it. False claims of community are no justification. In this section, we consider some of the factors at play.

Capitalism and Patriarchy

Patriarchal gender relations and patterns of sexual violence existed prior to the development of capitalism and have manifested in many forms throughout history. However, given that capitalism is the dominant social order of the day, and a system that structures all of our lives, focus will be given here to Capital and patriarchy. Throughout capitalism, working class men have held a cross-class allegiance with ruling class men. They have claimed ownership of, power over, and benefits from women's bodies and labour, as well as more access to property ownership and higher wages. This is evident in many ways. One is that women have historically taken on huge amounts of unpaid reproductive labour, such as childcare, cooking, and housekeeping. This has meant that, no matter how exploited a male worker may be, he has still had the ability to further exploit and oppress in his own home. This has also meant that, historically, working class men who married possessed a right to the body and sexuality of his wife.

It is important to note that while this may be an example of intra-class violence, in the sense that both the man and woman in this example belong to the working class, it is not horizontal violence ― because men nonetheless hold structural economic and political power over women. Working class men are faced with a choice ― to ally themselves with working class women and fight for gender equality and class struggle, or to continue to reproduce the gender imbalance and gender violence that they have historically benefited from. Too often, even men who called themselves revolutionaries have chosen the latter.

The concept of social reproduction is central to an understanding of how the functioning of capitalism has served to reinforce and perpetuate patriarchy as a system of male dominance. Social reproduction, in this case, refers to work required in order to reproduce workers―things like cooking, raising children, and keeping a clean home. These tasks are as necessary to capitalism as wage labour, but they are often unpaid and hidden away within the private realm of the household. However, in contemporary North American society, we often see this work being carried out by low-paid workers, who are almost all women, mostly women of colour, and often migrant workers. A key example in Ontario is the Live-In Caregiver Program, in which women workers live in employers’ homes and work for long hours, for low wages, and in vulnerable situations.

The material and ideological undervaluing and subordination of women under capitalism is the basis for the reproduction of male dominance and patriarchal relations. Women are, as a group, paid less than men, take on more unpaid reproductive labour, and make up a large part of the most precarious and low-paid workers. For this reason, a political understanding of accountability must also be an anti-capitalist struggle. This means both that instances of sexual assault must be seen in the context of gendered class relations, and that we as anarchists must engage in feminist struggle in workplaces and neighbourhoods around issues of unpaid and low-paid reproductive labour.


Politics to the Front – Participating in Feminist Struggle

The point is not for women simply to take power out of men’s hands, since that wouldn’t change anything about the world. It’s a question precisely of destroying that notion of power.
Simone de Beauvoir


The struggle against sexual violence and patriarchy must manifest in our daily lives and organizing efforts. As we develop our politics around these issues, it is imperative that we find ways to test our ideas in practice. As we have seen, a key problem with emphasizing accountability processes is that, by doing so, we are slipping away from addressing the structural roots of sexual violence. By side-stepping an analysis of the wider systems of power that are at play, we risk containing our politics within inward-looking activist scenes. Of course, we absolutely must contend with individual instances of sexual violence, as they will continue to occur. In this regard, an attempt has been made above to underscore how we feel that an approach that stresses political accountability can potentially address some of the short-comings of the community accountability model. However, we must also deal with movements that are actively and publicly organizing to perpetuate patriarchal social relations more broadly. MRAs comprise one such movement. As we endeavour to spread feminist ideas, we can expect to contend with reactionary elements in society that see these ideas as a threat to their relatively privileged existence.

By developing and putting into practice an anarchist political analysis of sexual violence and patriarchy, we are better poised to critique and build upon the failings of current feminist challenges to MRAs. More specifically, as will be explored below, the same absence of structural analysis which seems to plague accountability processes can be detected within the more liberal feminist responses to MRA organizing thus far.

The MRA movement is a growing force in North America, appearing most prominently on university campuses as student clubs that purport to address and raise awareness about “men's issues”. By manipulating the anxieties men face under the regime of neoliberal austerity, “men’s issues” groups choose to scapegoat feminism, thereby obscuring the underlying social relations of Capital and patriarchy that both men and women must navigate in order to survive.

Men's rights groups have existed in various forms since the 1850s, and more concretely since the 1970s. Historically, this movement has been framed as a critical response to the advancement of women's rights. More than offering a mere critical response, MRAs represent a patriarchal reactionary politics. It is no coincidence that their solidification in the 1970s took place against the backdrop of an influx of women into the paid labour force, and the increasing material gains won through women’s rights struggles as part of the expansion of the post-World War II Welfare State. Over the decades, the movement's rhetoric has been finessed to include pleasant words like “equality” and “inclusivity” and phrases that attempt to highlight a commitment to “achieving equality for all Canadians, regardless of sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, family status, race, ethnicity, creed, age or disability.” Rhetoric like this almost seems to betray the core message, which has remained consistent. The message being that feminists represent a special interest group that place themselves in direct competition with men for access to finite societal resources, and should therefore be opposed.

MRAs' claims that men endure hardships in society, such as lack of access to mental healthcare, problems in the judicial and prison systems, and unsafe working conditions are partly legitimate. However, like the anti-choice activist interested in fetal rights, it's clear that much of the interest MRAs have in these issues, and the debates they lead to, are occurring in bad faith. For instance, discussion of unsafe working conditions amongst MRAs does not lend focus to the operation of Capital as a force of exploitation that does harm to working class bodies through its consumption of labour power. Further, of little surprise, MRA discourse lacks any analysis regarding the gendered division of labour that has historically exposed women to uniquely unsafe working conditions. One contemporary example of such exposure is the disproportionate threat of sexual violence faced by female workers in the retail, service and hospitality industries, or the threat of workplace injury to predominantly female personal support workers in understaffed care facilities. Clearly, any attempt to genuinely contend with unsafe working conditions on the job necessarily requires an understanding of work in the context of capitalism. An understanding that lends itself to a strategy that is only enhanced, not threatened, by a knowledge of women's unique exploitation under capitalism.

Nevertheless, the surface utilization of partially legitimate issues by MRAs ― coupled with their reliance on liberal concepts such as “gender blindness” and “equality” as a cover for their anti-feminism ― make them a difficult group to engage with using rational discourse. In the absence of a feminist movement that could posit a revolutionary explanation as to why these problems are necessarily perpetuated in a patriarchal, capitalist society, MRAs are able to use this void as an opportunity for their further development. This has taken the form of challenging the very idea that women are structurally oppressed in society.

Men gravitate towards the anti-feminism of the MRAs, not simply because they have experienced hardship in their lives, but because of the significant material benefits they receive under patriarchy. MRAs defend a system that entitles men to the unwaged domestic work of women, as well as higher paid employment with greater social status. Ironically, MRAs consistently raise the rigid definition of masculinity, which men often adhere to (i.e. sexist behaviour) in order to maintain these privileges, as unfair to men. In this vein, the challenge to male dominance that feminism promotes manifests itself sexually as a challenge to male entitlement to female bodies. Female sexual agency is therefore viewed as a threat by many MRAs who, motivated by anger at potential rejection, and uncritical of the role masculine socialization has played in forming their views around consent and choice, like to whip up hysteria regarding so called “false” rape accusations, thereby contributing to their defence of rape culture more broadly. It's likely that female sexual agency is the primary reason men participate in MRA groups, since it seems the bulk of MRAs are in their early twenties―too young to have first-hand experience of some of the other talking points that they rally around. Their unwavering dedication to misogyny should implore us to strengthen our efforts to build an organized response to MRAs. Part of that effort must be a persistence in exposing “men's issues” for what they are―running the gamut from legitimate but misguided, to completely fraudulent.

In Toronto, MRAs are attempting to become a more permanent feature of the city's political landscape. They have established a student group, which they call the Canadian Association for Equality (CAFE), on the University of Toronto campus, where they have hosted lectures by anti-feminist academics such as Warren Farrell and Janice Fiamengo. CAFE has also set up men's rights groups at Ryerson University (also in Toronto), and several other university campuses in Ottawa, Montreal, Peterborough, and Guelph, as well as two off-campus groups in Ottawa and Vancouver. Currently CAFE is trying to establish a “Centre for Men and Families” in Toronto, and claim to have already received nearly half of the $50,000 start-up funds required―mainly from private donations. The proposed centre would operate as a support hub for men who claim to experience gender-based violence or discrimination, but, unfortunately, will most likely act as an echo-chamber in which “women's issues” are assumed to undermine and eclipse the disproportionate amount of hardships that men are perceived to face in society.

Feminists in Toronto have combated MRA activity in a couple of ways. Rallies have been organized on campus to correspond with the timing of MRA events, in an attempt to engage attendees in dialogue about their issues of concern. Printed materials have been distributed that attempt to re-frame the issues raised by the MRAs as broader social problems perpetuated by patriarchy, and which contain lists of resources for men who are facing domestic abuse or depression. The goal here is to catch the fair-weather MRA before he falls into the abyss of misogyny and victimhood, while still operating within the territory of liberalism.

Much like the rise of accountability processes as a means of addressing instances of sexual violence, these attempts at dealing with the reactionary sexism of MRAs ought to be encouraged and celebrated insofar as they reflect an active undertaking to combat concrete manifestations of male supremacy. Unfortunately, this more liberal brand of combating MRAs also shares with accountability processes a shallow level of political development concerning the systemic roots of the issues they attempt to confront. Whether it is in the context of holding a presence at MRA events or through debates on social media, a re-framing approach has been coupled with the tendency to engage in a mere statistics war waged against MRA information campaigns. In this context, both sides of the debate seek to present and explain statistics concerning gendered trends surrounding issues such as homelessness, suicide, and industrial accidents, while neither group takes on a deeper analysis of the interlocking systems of power that underlie such trends. To engage genuinely, perhaps we should resist the temptation to retort MRA claims with the standard “but women have it worse”. Perhaps a more effective strategy would be an acknowledgement, “yes, men do commit suicide at a higher rate than women―so what are we going to do about it, besides standing around blaming feminists?”
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby tapitsbo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:51 pm

The most extreme radfem I've ever met was a cisgender man. He used to drone on endlessly about CAFE in Toronto like American Dream's post just did, and constantly lecture women about why their feminisms were the wrong kind of feminisms, etc.

For the record, I've been threatened with a false accusation simply for saying I that I felt sad. I think that ties together a couple talking points in the last few points nicely.

And I'm still not an MRA, lol.

Yes slomo, I agree that certain people are "getting played"/trolled even as they appear to troll.
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Re: It's a Man's World!

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:03 pm

slomo » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:50 am wrote:That men don't have internal lives ... that is the father of all lies upon which modern virulent feminism rests.


Why is it always the father of all lies?
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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