New Book—Enthralled: The Guru Cult of Tibetan Buddhism

[liminalOyster]

Quotes are from LO's post above

Just started meditating at one point about 15 years ago because I could tell I really needed it.

Oh okay.I see. So you wanted to learn about meditating and turning inward and ended up in a religion with a very complex (according to your explanations) way of interpreting reality.

No, that's not at all how I see and experience meditation or Buddhism. As I said upthread: I am not a tantrika. I've not said what tradition I practice and don't want to but it is not a Tibetan or esoteric one.

...IOW out in the open but not clear to the untrained eye. Samaya also includes ethical mandates including one against misogyny actually.

Mandates that are not followed, especially by the leading Lamas don't mean much and end up being nothing but camouflage and smoke in the eyes of more sincere, lower level followers.

HS, do you have any direct experience at all with such sanghas? Are you basing your commentary here on books other than Chandler's? I'm genuinely curious because you seem to be adopting a rather extreme view based on limited exposure or experience. There is a ton of shit in the water in Tibetan Buddhism, Tibet, Shambhala (aka Vajradhatu) and other sanghas and organizations. But there's also a great deal of good. I wish you were a bit more interested in that ambiguity.

In any case, I'm signing off this thread which I don't want to participate in further. But I did want to share this, which I think will interest you alot : http://www.integralworld.net/benjamin92.html

I will actually post it to AD's TIDS thread too. It interests me because the organization in questions, Shambhala, is one of the biggest meditation communities in the US and has not usually been rated as a cult but based on recent events (as well as Chandler's book,) the author has decided it may be a "moderately dangerous cult."

edit:

I will add two quick things:

The Integral page linked above says this about Chandler, which dovetails very much with what I said earlier here -- that there is a paranoid and somewhat xenophobic narrative of the infiltration of the West by non-Christians: "From a number of Chandler's comments [3], it appears to me that politically she is both a Republican and Trump supporter, and her continuous praising of our American capitalist system runs very foreign to me."

In the comments on that page, Chandler writes that Tibetan lamas are "the ultimate racists." She continues that "the Dalai Lama's [is attempting[ to create a Buddhocracy through out the world." She says this to the author of the piece: "I sincerely hope that you can maintain your western reason and intelligence and don't engage in too much mindfulness." She refers to the "occult" aspects of Vajrayana. And she says thus which seems to confirm that she's a MAGA type: "This is why I stopped identifying with being a democrat and liberalism in 2011. I will not vote democratic again, unless this changes. Since we are bringing politics into the conversation."

[Heaven Swan]

Quotes from LO's post above:

HS, do you have any direct experience at all with such sanghas? Are you basing your commentary here on books other than Chandler's? I'm genuinely curious because you seem to be adopting a rather extreme view based on limited exposure or experience. There is a ton of shit in the water in Tibetan Buddhism, Tibet, Shambhala (aka Vajradhatu) and other sanghas and organizations. But there's also a great deal of good. I wish you were a bit more interested in that ambiguity.

In any case, I'm signing off this thread which I don't want to participate in further. But I did want to share this, which I think will interest you alot : http://www.integralworld.net/benjamin92.html

So sorry LO. My interest is in getting to the truth. This is not at all personal, as I think is obvious. The last thing I wanted to do was offend you or any other Buddhists reading this.

Thanks to IamwhoIam for posting the NYT link about the Panchen Lama. I'm still learning and appreciate it. And I did find a reference from Chandler about China's support for Tibetan Buddhism and will post it later.

To answer your question LO--I've never been a Buddhist but have had some contact with the religion through a monk I knew and was close friends with. He was in his 20's but looked 17-18 when I first met him and we went to a Buddhist event together put on by visiting Bhutanese monks. I was very triggered by the ceremony (I'm a survivor of Catholic clergy abuse). Having had a lot of alcoholic family members, I've developed radar for advanced alcoholics and was shocked that the abbot conducting the ceremony seemed to be an alcoholic. I was relieved when we left.

I went home and my friend went to eat and hang out with the visiting monks. afterwards he told me that during the meal the abbot kept leering at him. Nothing happened though. He was sitting with the young monks and they were hounding him. "You live here, take us somewhere where we can meet some girls," IOW they wanted to get laid...

My monk friend told me other similar stories and finally left Buddhism. He had been very young and idealistic when he joined then became disillusioned, devastated really at the corruption he witnessed. He toyed with other religions but couldn't find a direction. He ended up homeless and an opioid addict. He has a place to live now but despite being in his early 40's, I don't think he has much time left.

I was turned off, to say the least, by the behavior of these monks, especially since I had been led to see Bhutan as some sort of a pristine, happy, Buddhist Shangrila, but until reading Chandler's book I tended towards thinking that this may have been an isolated corrupt monastery.

I've had other exposure...too much to go into...but none has been positive.

There's something more important than my personal experience though, and I do have an axe to grind. I am very passionate in wanting, in my lifetime, to see these patriarchal religions crumble. These religions are responsible for codifying, spreading and enforcing the worst forms of sexism and misogyny, not to mention all the behind the scenes abuse and torture they have implemented over the centuries. If we ever want true freedom and basic human rights for all on this planet these religions must go.

I will actually post it to AD's TIDS thread too. It interests me because the organization in questions, Shambhala, is one of the biggest meditation communities in the US and has not usually been rated as a cult but based on recent events (as well as Chandler's book,) the author has decided it may be a "moderately dangerous cult."

Thanks. I did take a look at this thread. I guess Chandler's book is gaining some traction. Personally, I hope Shambhala is fully outed and loses credibility, like the Moonies did, thanks to the brave survivors and their supporters who spoke out.

edit:

I will add two quick things:

The Integral page linked above says this about Chandler, which dovetails very much with what I said earlier here -- that there is a paranoid and somewhat xenophobic narrative of the infiltration of the West by non-Christians: "From a number of Chandler's comments [3], it appears to me that politically she is both a Republican and Trump supporter, and her continuous praising of our American capitalist system runs very foreign to me."

In the comments on that page, Chandler writes that Tibetan lamas are "the ultimate racists." She continues that "the Dalai Lama's [is attempting[ to create a Buddhocracy through out the world." She says this to the author of the piece: "I sincerely hope that you can maintain your western reason and intelligence and don't engage in too much mindfulness." She refers to the "occult" aspects of Vajrayana. And she says thus which seems to confirm that she's a MAGA type: "This is why I stopped identifying with being a democrat and liberalism in 2011. I will not vote democratic again, unless this changes. Since we are bringing politics into the conversation."

Wait, wait, not so fast. It "appears to him" that Chandler is a Trump supporter and now suddenly she is? Just because someone is disillusioned with the Democrats doesn't mean they support Trump.

I'm about a third of the way through the book now. (fascinating read and highly recommended) She does feel that we need to re-evaluate the tendency of some liberals/leftists to disdain all aspects of American (USA) culture and history and not throw the baby out with the militaristic bathwater. Just because we have an out-of-control Pentagon and CIA doesn't mean that Emerson, Thoreau, Beecher-Stowe, our Constitution and Bill of Rights, our respect for science and critical inquiry and separation between church and state need to be junked and replaced by the Medieval beliefs of Tibetan warlords. That's the place she's coming from and I respect her point-of-view.

[liminalOyster]

I am very passionate in wanting, in my lifetime, to see these patriarchal religions crumble. These religions are responsible for codifying, spreading and enforcing the worst forms of sexism and misogyny, not to mention all the behind the scenes abuse and torture they have implemented over the centuries. If we ever want true freedom and basic human rights for all on this planet these religions must go.

No skin off my back. Have at it: But it is perhaps worth considering saying what you have said here up front. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with you as a poster and you've made this clear elsewhere, in which case the onus is on me. But you seem to have a commitment to a very strong view that all capital R religion is inalienably patriarchal, exploitative, oppressive. I totally respect your right to this opinion but it also means that I care, in some sense, about an institution that you believe is pretty much definitively evil. IMO, that makes little room for more nuanced discussion about experiences within so-called religious bodies.

Obviusly, take/leave as you see fit, but I would still humbly caution you to be wary of Chandler even if she seems, in part, to dovetail with your view.

She really seems to have an undercurrent of proto ethnic nationalism running through her working historical narrative.

She literally uses the term "new world order" and seems to believe in a genuine conspiracy between *all forms of so-called mindfulness including dilute secular Kabatt-Zinn stuff* and "democrats" to implement -- one world government -- ala Alex Jones, Birchers, etc.

When this is coupled with her repeating references to "the Western mind" and the assault upon it, which she'd like to fight off, it may as well be Pat Buchanan, IMO and really operates on the same kind of xenophobic logic as MAGA, only here its Tibetan "racist" lamas instead of dreamers with "anchor babies" etc.

When it is coupled with her general Orientalism, it recalls long and deep negative characterizations of the wily mystical Asians which go back, in this case, at least to the 19th c chinese railworkers,.

And when it is coupled with her negative references, to "the occult" and the threat of mindfulness leading to "mind control," she is smart enough to reference Znamenski but she sounds, to my ears at least, very much like the fundamentalists who protest Yoga in public schools because it may lead to demonic possession.

In sum, certain kinds of narratives get re-skinned as they are repeated but there are only so many of them and this one is easily identifiable -- a small group of woke freedom fighters wage a brave moral battle against the Decline of the West at the hands of godless invaders. This is the same basic story as The Turner Diaries, just less virulent and more erudite.

Chandler makes some worthy criticisms. But they are simply too tainted by the base ethnic identity politics which underly her thinking, even if unconscious to her.

Only my opinion, of course. I won't sully your thread further and thanks for the friendliness. Cheers.

[Iamwhomiam]

Thank you for your comments, Liminal Oyster. I had prepared a few comments last night but withheld them and I'm sorry I did as they might have been helpful to Heaven Swan. It is difficult for westerners to grasp concepts that without experience words can only convey poorly. It's sort of like trying to describe the color blue to a blind person. Meditation is simply meditation, whether it is a Christian meditating upon Christian teachings or a Buddhist meditating upon Buddhist teachings, or an Atheist meditating upon nothing : the goal is the same in bringing one closer to the truth of reality.

There's even a wave of anti-yoga Christians claiming that by practicing yoga, you displace God from within you and replace him with demons.

Fortunately, these days online can be found very much information on Buddhist practices, which as I stated earlier is not practicing a religion, but is following a philosophy by which you choose to live your life, but this was not accepted by HS who still refers to it as a religion.

I've not read Chandler's book and doubt I will, as what she has to say cannot be of any help to me. I don't disagree with Liminal Oyster's take on her. Just another Charles Murray wannabe. More on Charles Murray

Seriously? Tibetan warlords we now need to worry about?

This is no place to start, but it's a good beginning:

https://www.oshorajneesh.com/download/osho-books/buddha/The_Heart_Sutra.pdf

http://www.oshoworld.com/discourses/audio_eng.asp?album_id=20

You can purchase a book or an audio book of Oshi's discourses, if you'd prefer.

[Elvis]

I keep a little scap of paper pinned up with the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path; that seems like enough. My own feeling is that Buddhism should not be complicated.

Many years ago I lived in an apartment next to an NSA "chanter" couple; when we met them, they asked us if we ever chanted and said we could chant for anything we want, and did we know where to get some pot? They kept an alter on the living room with 'sacrificed' rotting fruit. They had violent fights and you could hear him hitting her. As far as I could tell, there wasn't anything Buddhist about them.

[peartreed]

Buddha-full can be beautiful.

[identity]

Many years ago I lived in an apartment next to an NSA "chanter" couple; when we met them, they asked us if we ever chanted and said we could chant for anything we want, and did we know where to get some pot? They kept an alter on the living room with 'sacrificed' rotting fruit. They had violent fights and you could hear him hitting her. As far as I could tell, there wasn't anything Buddhist about them.

Buddhism with No Strings Attached:

Chanter couple chanting,
each for their own
temporal nirvana:
she, for escape (and weed),
he, for her total submission (and weed!)

rotting fruit, bruised skin
their humble sacrifices
on a Buddhist altar

[Sounder]

I met a new Zen priest on the day he moved to town because he rented a place next door to my then girlfriends house. Was never a member but my wife sat with them for awhile and I took work with said priest in a new remodel business. I still work with the folk that I worked with in the early days. Most quit while many became members in the local Tibetan group, I assume but do not know, because the Zen guru was quite a fool.

Back then I read a fair bit of 'spiritual' material, never much happy with it. Sufi's were the only ones I could moderately get behind because in that tradition the 'wise guys' had to hold regular jobs. IMO it is not right to monetize the pursuit of more subtle understanding of reality, it's also counterproductive.

It would seem that a more robust 'spirituality' is found through ones own examinations rather than one mediated by others. Sure, listen to the 'wise guys' but realize that a lot of verbiage is subtle means for covering over shortcomings.