Z Magazine: An interview with Noel IgnatievQ. Let’s talk about your publication Race Traitor, which you call the journal of
“the new abolitionism.” Appearing across its cover is the slogan “Treason to
Whiteness is Loyalty to Humanity.” There’s some pretty provocative language
packed in there. What, precisely, do you mean to covey with all this? And how
does the journal’s purpose relate to your aims in How the Irish Became White?
A: The relationship between the two projects is this. In the book I’m studying
how a group of people who were not white became white, that is, became
members of the white “club.” In the journal I’m trying to explore how people
who now think of themselves as white, or who are white, or who act white,
might become un-white. So in a sense it’s a way of studying how the film
might be run backward
Q: Of course this raises the question of exactly what you mean by “white.”
A: Indeed, I’m not referring to people of fair skin, straight hair, or any of the
other physical characteristics which we normally think of as white. No one has
any control over how they were born, how they look, or any of that. So far as
I’m concerned those things make no difference. I’m talking about what’s going
on in people’s minds. To me, being “white” means being part of a club, with
certain privileges and obligations. People are recruited into that club at birth,
enrolled in that club without their consent or permission, and brought up
according to its rules. Generally speaking, they go through life accepting the
rules and accepting the benefits of membership, without ever considering the
costs.
Q: What are the costs?
A: The cost of membership in the white club is that it requires a loyalty and
conformity to official American society in a way that’s making life very un-
comfortable and even dangerous for all of the ordinary folk in this country—
those who are called white, as well as those who are called black. The project
of our journal is to break up that club. Essentially the way we think the club
can be broken up is by disrupting the conformity that maintains it.
In our view, the country needs some reverse oreos: a whole bunch of folks who
look white on the outside but don’t act white. So many, in fact, that it will be
impossible for those in power in this country to really be sure who’s white
merely by looking. When that happens the value of the white skin will dimin-
ish.
Q: What sorts of things might result from this?
A: I think political issues and conflicts and divisions would take place on
normal bases, having to do with people’s interests in terms of wealth versus
poverty, for example, and questions of that kind, which would open the door
for all sorts of social and political changes that haven’t happened yet, because
some people settle for being white rather than take a chance
on being free.
It seems to me that culturally, the United States is not a white country.
Cul turally, the United States is, at the very least, as Albert Murray once put it,
“incontestably mulatto.” Every American, merely by virtue of landing on these
shores, becomes culturally part Yankee, part American Indian, and part black,
with a little pinch of ethnic salt. In a certain sense people know this. Just
think of the music we listen to, the dances we do, the sports we admire, the
dress, the rhythms of speech, certain attributes of Protestantism and even, in
some places, Catholicism—all of these things indicate a black influence in
American life. And Americans by and large enjoy this—although they’re not
quite willing to admit it. They prefer to deny it. But even insofar as it’s ac-
knowledged—and this is crucial—they want to separate all of this from ques-
tions of political rights and citizenship. So what I like to say is that the
United States is the largest country in the world of people who pass for white.
There are a couple hundred million of them who are denying the black pres-
ence within their own souls and hearts.
The result is that people accept a lot of abuse and a lot of suffering—and I’m
talking about so-called white people now. Everybody knows that black people
are oppressed. I’m talking about the white people who accept a lot of abuse
and a lot of mistreatment—from the government, from their employers, from
their landlords, from the people in authority—because at least they have the
consolation of being white, or thinking that they’re white. I want to see that
broken apart.
Q: How could that happen?
A: I think the way to break it apart is to attack and disrupt the structures that
reproduce the color line in the United States.
Q: Which structures are we talking about then?
A: I’m not talking about racists. I assume that there’s a small number a white
people in the United States who are dedicated, ideologically committed white
supremacists. And there’s a small number of white people in the United States
who are really, genuinely against white supremacy and want to overturn it.
And I assume that the majority of white people in this country probably mean
as well as most human beings have since the beginning of time. They lead
their ordinary private lives, seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. They don’t
wish ill to people of color, but on the other hand aren’t willing to take chances
to change anything about it. And by and large they function like the “good
Germans” during World War II: they don’t know what’s going on because it’s
more comfortable for them in many ways not to know.
So I’m not talking about Tom Metzger or hard-core white supremacists repro-
ducing racial oppression. I’m talking about the ordinary mainstream institu-
tions of this society—the labor market, the school system, the police and the
court system, the social work industry, the housing authority. All of these
various social mechanisms, which in many cases are operated and adminis-
tered by well-meaning folk who would be horrified at the suggestion that they
are, in fact, reproducing the structures of racism.
Q: How are they reproducing the structures of racism?
A: Well, for instance, tracking in the public schools, which has a clear racial
characteristic. We are not dealing here with two groups of people who are
coming out of the same history. It becomes an excuse for dividing black from
white. People are channeled, even from the first grade; they get sent directly
onto one track that’s going to lead them into skilled jobs, into better situa-
tions, into a certain kind of occupational future. And on the other hand, we
have people who are being sent, being channeled, directly into the army,
prison, the warehouse, or the most menial jobs available. The schools do this
under the guise of what are considered to be objective, fair kinds of testing.
But, as a whole number of people have pointed out, these standards and these
tests are race-loaded.
Another example is the job market and the implication of the unions in con-
trolling the job market and maintaining a kind of father-son system of conti-
nuity—particularly in some of the remnants of the skilled trades industries,
where plumbers and carpenters, and so forth, can pass on what amounts to
the right to work in these industries from father to son, uncle to nephew, in a
way that excludes black people. And again, it’s not done openly as a matter of
color—it’s done through the family—but the result of it is that there are still
many of these trades that are restricted to people who are called white.
Another example, of course, is the courts and the criminal justice system,
which has attracted the most attention recently. The institution which in-
volves the greatest amount of participation of black males—in particular,
those in their twenties—is the criminal justice system, far outweighing the
higher education system. Drugs provide the most illuminating case study on
this score. The penalty for using even a tiny amount of crack are far more
severe than the penalty for using or possessing a similar amount of powder
cocaine—crack cocaine being the drug of choice for black folks in the ghetto,
powder cocaine for white folks in the suburbs.
The result is the prisons are filled with people who are in for a paltry amount
of crack, while the folks in the suburbs enjoy impunity. Drug use has now
filled America’s prisons with poor, by and large black, people.
Congress, in fact, voted down a law that would have eliminated this discrep-
ancy in the severity of the respective penalties—although the words “black”
and “white” were never mentioned in the law—thus making it clear that young
black men will continue to be channeled into prison, while the law will wink
at cocaine use by white folks in the suburbs.
Q: The other day you described a poignant example from your own experience
of this apartheid-like double standard so deeply entrenched in our legal cul-
ture. Would you share it again?
A: That sort of experience poses us with a question: How do we break out of
this? The last time I was in New York, I made an illegal right turn on a red
light. I didn’t know that you can’t do that in New York City. A cop stopped me.
I gave him my license. He looked at it courteously and admonished me, told
me not to do it again, and let me go.
I tried to say to myself, what was going on here? It seems to me that they
looked at me—I look white—and they said, okay, we can let this guy go, he’s
not a danger to us, he seems okay. He violated the law, but no big deal, we’ll
cut him a little slack, give him a break.
Q: He’s part of our club.
A: Exactly. Now people know that had I been black, the outcome might have
been different. I might have gotten a ticket. I might have been taken down to
the station and been worked over. I might have been Rodney King by the time
they were done with me. Most black Americans have anecdotes—it’s a stan-
dard thing, the cops stopping black people for the well-known crime of DWB:
Driving While Black.
This was a small example of the maintenance, you see, of the white club.
Recruiting me. Holding me. It works subtly. It’s a reward to me for assumed
past good behavior, and an incentive for assumed future good behavior. So I
think to myself: What am I gaining and what am I giving up? What I gain from
it, obviously, is that I don’t get a ticket; I get released with a little bit of
courtesy. But what I gave up is my ability to struggle against those people:
the cops and the judges and the landlords and the employers and the political
officials, who are reducing the American economy to a shambles and destroy-
ing the quality of American life—all because at least I have the privileges of
club membership.
So I say to myself, well, what could I do to get out of the club? How could I
break apart the club? What would make the cops treat me differently?
What would make them treat me differently is if they couldn’t be sure whether
I was white merely by looking at me. And what would make them think twice
is if there were enough people who were acting—in a public way—defiantly,
flagrantly un-white. Then the cops really could no longer be sure. They’d have
to start examining each person’s individual behavior. Or else they’d fall back
on the standard that governs police conduct all over the world where race is
not the issue-that is to say, social class: speech, dress, the usual tokens.
All over the world, cops beat up poor people, That’s their job. What has to be
explained is not why they beat up Rodney King—they do that in all countries
in the world. The question isn’t why they beat up black people, but why they
don’t regularly and routinely beat up people who look white. The reason for
that is this club that exists. Well, whites gain something from this club, as
I’ve pointed out, but they also lose something from it. They also pay a price
for membership in this club, and the price is living in a society which is going
to hell in a hand basket and everybody knows it.