Mansplaining

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Re: Mansplaining

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:23 am

Well, yes, they definitely do.

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Obviously I am coming at it from an exclusively male perspective, like yourself, except I am staggering around drunk in here, mansplaining stuff to other men. :lol:


That was me talking earlier (like a few months back) so I know that men do mansplain stuff to other men, in a somewhat erasing manner (I mean, we erase whatever they were saying before in order to turn it towards whatever we want to talk about instead) and I recognise that I myself am particularly prone to doing this, and that it is an unattractive and objectionable trait, and that I am an arsehole therefore.

But that was kind of the point of the post (well, a part of it). :bigsmile
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:35 am

Rick Perry Dismisses His Wife’s Abortion Comments, Tries To Explain What She Really Believes

On Saturday, Anita Perry, the wife of longtime Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R), raised some eyebrows after she appeared to voice her support for a woman’s right to choose — a position at odds with her husband’s staunch opposition to abortion even in cases of rape, incest or where childbirth threatens the life of the mother.

But rather than Mrs. Perry clarifying her opinion or explaining that she misspoke, the Governor took it upon himself to dismiss his wife’s statements and explain to a crowd of reporters what she really thinks about abortion.

“From time to time we’ll stick the wrong word in the wrong place, and you pounce upon it,” said Perry during an appearance in New Jersey alongside Republican senate candidate Steve Lonegan, who is running against Newark’s Democratic Mayor Cory Booker.

But Anita Perry did not offer up a simple, one-word answer when asked about her views on a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion. During a televised interview at the Texas Tribune Festival, Perry responded to a question about the ongoing war on women by explaining that while she herself opposes abortion, she recognizes the right that other women have to pursue one as well.

“I see it as a woman’s right,” she said. “If they want to do that, that is their decision, they have to live with that decision. It is not mine, it is not something that I would say for them.” Moderator Evan Smith, the editor-in-chief of the Texas Tribune, was quick to offer Perry an opportunity to clarify her remarks, but instead she expressed some hesitation about the restrictive anti-abortion laws signed by her husband and again explained that abortion was a woman’s right, “just like it’s a man’s right if he wants to have some kind of procedure.”

Anita Perry’s comments align her more closely with fellow Texan and State Sen. Wendy Davis (D) than with her husband when it comes to abortion. Davis famously launched a late-night filibuster in an attempt to block the Republican legislature from passing a bill that would outlaw all abortions for women who are more than 20 weeks pregnant. The bill was delayed, but ultimately passed and was signed into law by Gov. Perry in July. When asked by Smith if her husband was right to sign the law, Anita explained that it was “really difficult” for her.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10 ... -comments/

:lol:
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby JackRiddler » Tue May 27, 2014 9:10 am

Project Willow » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:21 pm wrote:I've heard the arguments countless times. They are very old and tired and need to be put to bed.

"This isn't a patriarchy because I have trouble talking to women and I can't get laid."

"This isn't a patriarchy because my mother, sister, girlfriend, wife dominates me."

"This isn't a patriarchy because that feminist was really rude to me!"

"This isn't a patriarchy because men get hurt too."

"This isn't a patriarchy because, did you see those few broads who were allowed to speak on television, to hold elected office, to do a man's job, to become rich?!"

"This isn't a patriarchy because it's classicism, capitalism, individual pathology!"

"This isn't a patriarchy, you're just angry because some man hurt you!"

The last one is my personal fav. Nobody has lobbed that one at me in a long time.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue May 27, 2014 11:18 am

This isn't a patriarchy because I'm a man and I love women.

This isn't a patriarchy because women like being submissive and dominated.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Searcher08 » Wed May 28, 2014 7:41 am

Project Willow » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:17 am wrote:^ Thanks for mansplaining that.


"When you are a hammer, the world consists of nails"


Person A is speaking to Person B about something which is meaningful to A
Their (unstated) outcome for the conversation is to have a conversation where they are listened to and the experience and subject explored.

Person B then interrupts person A

This has to be done by one or a combination of:
Talking over them; ('Bullhorning' )
By A's non-verbal messages overpowering A's message (eg B head-shaking violently side to side);
Waiting for A to breathe / end a sentence and then talking in the gap ('Grabbing the mike')

I found this paper
http://interruptions.net/literature/LaFrance-PWQ92.pdf

Well worth reading. (I tried copying sections from the PDF but was not successful)

I appreciate that the 'power' dimension self-evidently exists - personally, I think that framing the problem in a communication domain would make it much more amenable to change in the wider population rather than framing it in purely social / economic or gender domains.

I am very aware of the pattern in action and that the OP misses the report of the other person in the conversation and of a third party observer. My best mate does this a lot and I found the best solution for me. He interrupts by talking over. I have found that one or more of these strategies are really useful:
a) If what he says is very tangential to my subject, I will just start speaking slightly slower than him, in a sing-song friendly tonality "And interesting. And you have not heard the end of my story." Repeat like a mantra :)

b) Relevance challenge
"I'm unsure how Y is directly connected to my conversation. I hadnt finished sharing about X and would like to do that"

c) Meta-communication Interrupt
"Petunia" said in a slow louder voice.
Unless the conversation was around flowers, this acts as a conversational Control-Alt -Del for a few seconds. State your outcome for the conversation and start from the point before the interruption. :)

A lot of the people who are mega-interrupters / derailers have limited sensory acuity about the effects of their interruptions (they are literally only listening to themselves) - I think of them like bulls - pretty difficult to 'push' them in a different direction, but find the ring through their nose and you can gently lead them in a more mutually empowering, respectful and productive direction.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Project Willow » Wed May 28, 2014 12:23 pm

I have a friend who approaches just about everyone she meets with barrage of stream of consciousness anecdotes, leaving no room for one to get a word in edgewise. She has difficultly with tracking and editing in conversation. She wanders off on many tangents and she can get quite frustrated when she invariably loses the point she was trying to make. Sometimes I will gently bring her around to where she started. I don't take any personal offense at this behavior, that would be silly. It isn't some artifact of enculturation, some power over maneuver or posturing, it's just how her mind works.

This thread is not about personal idiosyncrasies however. This thread is about an aspect of patriarchal culture, the perceived authority of the male view, and how some men use this in routine conversation, consciously or unconsciously, as a means of control. It is about attitude and approach.

Speaking of hammers to nails, have you considered that my views on gender inequality may be a nail to you? Given the number of female bloggers who've been threatened with rape or death simply for speaking their minds, the choice of that metaphor is a bit ironic.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Searcher08 » Wed May 28, 2014 1:54 pm

The OP described can also be seen as describing a communication structure, which appears from the research in the paper I posted to have a lot of nuance and variation in the composition of the dyads involved.

I am interested in the specifics of what you described and how it is enacted and also how it can be counteracted. I'm sorry you seem to think that is not relevant, particularly when it is adding an extra dimension to the discussion.

What are your ideas for counteracting this what you describe as an attitude and approach? (I see what I described as just the nuts and bolts 'communication instantiation' of this)

I do not know what your views on gender inequality are, nor vice-versa. I am aware that my communication style and learning process is both 'big picture' and 'small chunk', so I tend to ask a lot of questions. Face to face this is much less forensic and much more amiable and softer than it tends to sound online. I am partly Aspie too. What may land as challenging the veracity of someone's point of view online in real life would probably be experienced as the curiosity level of an excited kid - which is where it is coming from.

Project Willow » Wed May 28, 2014 4:23 pm wrote:I have a friend who approaches just about everyone she meets with barrage of stream of consciousness anecdotes, leaving no room for one to get a word in edgewise. She has difficultly with tracking and editing in conversation. She wanders off on many tangents and she can get quite frustrated when she invariably loses the point she was trying to make. Sometimes I will gently bring her around to where she started. I don't take any personal offense at this behavior, that would be silly. It isn't some artifact of enculturation, some power over maneuver or posturing, it's just how her mind works.

This thread is not about personal idiosyncrasies however. This thread is about an aspect of patriarchal culture, the perceived authority of the male view, and how some men use this in routine conversation, consciously or unconsciously, as a means of control. It is about attitude and approach.

Speaking of hammers to nails, have you considered that my views on gender inequality may be a nail to you? Given the number of female bloggers who've been threatened with rape or death simply for speaking their minds, the choice of that metaphor is a bit ironic.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Wed May 28, 2014 2:07 pm

Didnt read thread. Not that the topic of "mansplaining" isnt an infinite wellspring of very interesting discussion but... yeah. Ive noticed this phenomenon a lot at parties and other social events. Men do talk down to women like theyre children, when they want to screw them. Ive never seen this happen between a man and a woman that actually know each other very well, or who are already screwing or related or something. The reason for this is that, society tells men that they have to be knowledgable/interesting to women so they try their best to put on a front like that. The other reason is because it works. Ive seen the dorkiest dude in the world explain to some hot chick very slowly and simply the finer aspects of raising pitbulls and get her in bed that night. So while the college/feminist crowd has seen through this play, and totally hasnt turned a minor inconvenience of social interaction into a representation of the abstract notion of female oppression i.e. "patriarchy" in order to suck as much victimization out of their comfortable privileged white upper class lives as possible and parasitically attach themselves to the real struggles of disadvantaged women, here in hicksville nowhere mansplaining still happens and still works.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby American Dream » Wed May 28, 2014 2:16 pm

Things women say that you hate hearing all the time

Image

No one ever likes being pulled up on actions or words or whatever that has been perceived by others as directly or indirectly perpetuating oppression. Whenever this has happened to me (which is fairly often), my initial response every fucking time is to start explaining how actually I wasn't really saying anything offensive to anyone, and that's not actually what I meant, and if my intention was something else then really people should give me the benefit of the doubt blah blah and I get all defensive and outraged and really upset that anyone would think I'm racist/homophobic/ableist/transphobic or whatever when I'm totally not, I defintely know I'm not any of those things. I don't think this is that uncommon a reaction.

Problem is, even if I've been unfairly targeted as being racist or homophobic or something when I haven't been (I still haven't got round to dealing with my tendency to Britsplain, which involves me not actively supporting Scottish Independence), the fact that I get upset about it really, really isn't the point here, and I'm aware that I need to try and keep that in check and just suck up that feeling of social embarrassment and deal with what's actually happening. As we have all grown up in hierarchical cultures where patriarchy, white supremacy, heteronormativity and ableism are the norm, we will all say or do things from time to time, maybe totally unintentionally, that perpetuate this so it's really not that big a leap to accept that maybe sometimes when people point this out to us they might actually be right. And even if they're not right, being accused of racism or sexism or whatever when you aren't isn't really much of a match for actually having to navigate life with these oppressions all the time, so... maybe we should try and be a bit less defensive.



https://libcom.org/blog/things-women-sa ... 013?page=1
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby 82_28 » Wed May 28, 2014 3:06 pm

You do have to modify your hearty handshake for women. Not of any fault of my own, but I've been told a few times that my handshake hurt. And then I say, "you've gotta be kidding me". Or something. And then the attendant apology for making the mistake of being friendly.

Then again, the men you cannot trust all have limp handshakes. And not to make an issue of it as I don't see it this way, just an observation, men and women are different, but a limp handshake from a woman is real and must be respected, while a strong handshake from a man means he respects you no matter the gender.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Wed May 28, 2014 4:11 pm

82_28 » Wed May 28, 2014 2:06 pm wrote:You do have to modify your hearty handshake for women. Not of any fault of my own, but I've been told a few times that my handshake hurt. And then I say, "you've gotta be kidding me". Or something. And then the attendant apology for making the mistake of being friendly.

Then again, the men you cannot trust all have limp handshakes. And not to make an issue of it as I don't see it this way, just an observation, men and women are different, but a limp handshake from a woman is real and must be respected, while a strong handshake from a man means he respects you no matter the gender.


How bad is it that whenever I shake a man's hand I can't help but wonder if he washed his hands after he shook the dew from the lily. :? Gawd help me if I ever visit one of those countries where they don't have access to toilet paper. I'm not overly germ conscious either. Is this a kind of gender bias?
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby 82_28 » Wed May 28, 2014 4:39 pm

LOL
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby American Dream » Wed May 28, 2014 4:54 pm

Pele'sDaughter » Wed May 28, 2014 3:11 pm wrote:How bad is it that whenever I shake a man's hand I can't help but wonder if he washed his hands after he shook the dew from the lily. :? Gawd help me if I ever visit one of those countries where they don't have access to toilet paper. I'm not overly germ conscious either. Is this a kind of gender bias?


I think it is usually the left hand that is used for such ablutions, so European-style hand shaking should be ok, I would think.
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby Pele'sDaughter » Wed May 28, 2014 4:56 pm

Thank you. :oops:
Don't believe anything they say.
And at the same time,
Don't believe that they say anything without a reason.
---Immanuel Kant
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Re: Mansplaining

Postby 82_28 » Wed May 28, 2014 5:19 pm

Sucks to be a basically ambi southpaw I guess. I do different things with both sides of my limbs. And I am a man dammit!
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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