SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby Belligerent Savant » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:11 am

Belligerent Savant » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:52 pm wrote:.


Why not try?


To be clear, my message should not be confused with NOT trying.

Be it Bernie or any other worthwhile candidate -- we should all TRY to get our man/woman elected. It's all we can do as citizens.

I'm saying: he'll never become President, for reasons irrespective of citizen efforts.

It'd be grand if I'm proven wrong come 2020.

But I won't be.


(This shouldn't be mistaken for negativity. Cynicism, sure. But so long as we continue to subscribe to the charade known as the National Election process, the Voice of The People shan't be heard. I simply do not believe The System -- as currently constituted -- can allow for a President benefiting the Majority. Too much money, power and influence built into The System for such an event to transpire. It's rigged for the Insiders. The System needs to be fully broken down and built up anew. Some day, perhaps.)



"The System needs to be fully broken down and built up anew." ...only to be later compromised once again.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:34 pm

.

Willow, very relevant thoughts. Just a response to one part:

Project Willow » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:14 pm wrote:How is it Bernie was allowed to go even this far when others in similar scenarios past have been easily defeated or disappeared from political life or altogether?


Well, notwithstanding the probability of the answer you gave, it's not just him.

The coalescence around the Sanders campaign is the latest, not the only and not the last iteration of movements that have manifested and continue to manifest in the immigrant rights marches, Occupy Wall Street, the early days of the Wisconsin uprising, the eco-rebellions, Black Lives Matter, Fight for $15, the ongoing trade union organizing and strike waves, and to a lesser extent the anti-war movement. It is the latest expression of tens of millions of people and especially the youth awakening to all the lies of the system, a response to the crises of the times, just when the young (an age group that ranges from the teens into the 40s) have less and less and less to lose.

The systemic antagonists to this are neither all-powerful nor always and everywhere united, nor entirely unwilling to show toleration. When these movements combine and mutate and go electoral (or, in this case, to give him his credit, when Sanders provides that chance through the clearest, most militant and uncompromising expression of a social democratic platform in more than 40 years, something that is very far to "the left" on the American scene), then the PTB or some of them may indeed understand the danger that it can spread and become more popular and conscious if they tolerate it; but, at the same time, the structural set-up of the "democracy" also allows what we just saw transpire in early March: rapid coordinated shock-and-awe maneuvers on many fronts to suppress the movement's electoral expression and to make that look like its genuine endogenous failure to win a majority.

Here's what we as veteran observers fail to see or forget: that was incredibly close, the movement is large and mainstream and growing, there's been nothing to compare to it in size or potential in about 50 years and it's bigger, younger, and on the rise, also more diverse and less consolidated. Times are unusually and irreversibly unstable, and what happens next is unpredictable and contingent. The last is true in spite of all the different horror scenarios we can easily plot out. Everyone's got a short window emotionally, so we get these feelings of defeat when actually it's an unusual time and nothing's set in stone -- not even after the presumed reelection of the fellow trying to play the American Hitler. History is not on forced repeat.

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby norton ash » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:17 pm

Encouraging and well-put. It's all about assembling crowds and getting a new congress. They can't shoot all of us.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby liminalOyster » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:29 pm

JackRiddler » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:34 pm wrote:.History is not on forced repeat.


Yes, it is, IMO. Or at least the basic contours thereof are. Which is why the energy behind that force that enables the repeat function so needs a counter-force, exorcism, short-circuit, ungrounding, etc.

edit, ps: I suspect #Occupy in some form/iteration/mutation is the answer. I suspect it will be driven in part by some of the positive aspects of disconnection/isolatioln/reflection driven by COVID quarantine. OTOH, I feel like all my predictions are now always wrong.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby Grizzly » Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:58 pm

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:56 pm

As someone who's voted Green several times and probably will again, and as someone who also avoided elections altogether for a dozen years, and as someone who has even voted for Democrats and not always regretted it, I have come to wonder why the Lucy parable is never considered applicable to a) US third-party efforts in all decades after the 1850s,* b) US efforts at armed revolutionary insurgency or activist-delivered terrorism, also since roughly that time, or c) anarchist-inflected arguments against any kind of voting as complicity and legitimation of the system.

Could it be that the theoretical revision we must make involves learning stoicism, or Buddhism, or some other form of abiding?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IVta2d1hHU

* although there is arguably a case to be made for, ugh, Wallace getting his way by changing the map, and people do (stupidly imho) credit Perot for doing the same.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby liminalOyster » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:14 pm

I think our best bet these days is to appropriate the Shock Doctrine and milk the fuck out of these moments (COVID, etc) to just spread the fucking word loud n clear.

For instance: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/covid-19-d ... 1585777796

I trust that we've got a big fat critical mass of young people who're brave enough to say the obvious that always needs saying. A lot of universities are unlikely to reopen in-person in the fall. And it's going to really push along the sensible experience of how fucked up the current system is for alot of college-aged people. I'm hopeful they'll strike and resist and generatl strike etc and ad infinitum.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby stickdog99 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:15 pm



If there is any hope, it is in the fight for $15.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby Project Willow » Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:45 pm

JackRiddler » 10 Apr 2020 19:14 wrote:Last hope is the rope-a-dope?


:wink

JackRiddler wrote:The systemic antagonists to this are neither all-powerful nor always and everywhere united, nor entirely unwilling to show toleration. When these movements combine and mutate and go electoral (or, in this case, to give him his credit, when Sanders provides that chance through the clearest, most militant and uncompromising expression of a social democratic platform in more than 40 years, something that is very far to "the left" on the American scene), then the PTB or some of them may indeed understand the danger that it can spread and become more popular and conscious if they tolerate it; but, at the same time, the structural set-up of the "democracy" also allows what we just saw transpire in early March: rapid coordinated shock-and-awe maneuvers on many fronts to suppress the movement's electoral expression and to make that look like its genuine endogenous failure to win a majority.


I'm not contending they are all powerful, but I do take issue with your premise that elite response in this case is necessarily reactive. The Bernie as progressive sheepdog project, is not beyond the realm of possibility, and it could be accomplished well in advance, by hanging something over his head. If I've read correctly, or skimmed rather, Bernie himself advocated for building movements outside of party structures, or building new parties, as recent as the 1990s. What happened to that Bernie?

I have no evidence for my contentions except my understanding of my own direct, personal experience with behavior control masters, and my awareness that fore planning on this level is not beyond their capacities. This is to say that, I think there's a naïveté in your analysis that doesn't account for over 100 years and billions of dollars invested in the manipulation of human behavior. I hope you're right, but I don't think so. Any counter movement can be knee capped and/or co-opted at this point. The major levers of connection and motivation are all controlled by the masters.

If the other doomsayers such Corbett are correct and that we are headed into a globalist wet dream of authoritarian control, movements will be atomized into tiny communities existing on the margins of society, a dystopian movie come true.

Regardless, if you want to hold out hope, I'll hope right along with you, while keeping a side eye on the planners.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:31 pm

.


Thanks for sharing your perspective, PW. My less-learned assessment is in alignment with yours.

The latest optic -


Sanders Endorses Biden: ‘We Need You In The White House’

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) endorsed former Vice President Joe Biden on Monday in an effort to unite the Democratic Party ahead of the 2020 presidential election.

Sanders, a Democratic Socialist who represents the party’s left flank, suspended his presidential campaign last week, clearing the way for Biden to win the party’s presidential nomination.

“We’ve got to make Trump a one-term president and we need you in the White House,” Sanders said to Biden in a livestream Monday.

“Bernie, I want to thank you for that, it means a great deal,” Biden said a couple minutes later.

Sanders’ endorsement doesn’t necessarily mean that his supporters will fall in line behind Biden: The two candidates, Monday’s commity aside, maintain different stances on key issues.


Etc..

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/sand ... rses-biden
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby alloneword » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:57 pm

Yeah, I know, we shouldn't mock the afflicted... but:

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby liminalOyster » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:57 am

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:18 pm

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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:00 pm

.

Here's my comment from the time Sanders showed misguided mercy toward Joe. Fateful. Read it now, if you had your doubts then, and tell me what I got wrong, especially regarding the disastrous Ukrainian impeachment strategy. Was this really only three months ago?

Jan 23, 2020, 5:47 PM

Zephyr Teachout's column was not only right but mild. The Bidens' dealings typify the systemic political corruption under capitalism. It doesn't matter that it's legal. Who legalized every species of conflict-of-interest, political bribery, nepotism, pay-to-play, and banking fraud? Oh, right, forty years of Biden and the Bipartisans. (Of course the history is longer than this but there's no doubt on how recent "Bipartisan Centrists" have stood in deregulating the flow and reach of money in politics, especially into their own pockets.)

It doesn't matter how much worse Trump is! Of course he's worse! Figure it out, Trump has a base. He plays their Leader. They follow him! This is not a joke, it really is the time of death coming.

You get one chance to stop the beast. There is no safe option or assured route. Biden's right-wing politics, at best, will leave the un-Trumpian majority apathetic and demobilized. His legal family enrichment and his decades of loyal service to the corporations will be fat and easy targets.

Do you think Trump's predatory instincts were in error, when he tried to sic Ukraine back on the Burisma case? Obviously this will stick to Joe. Don't delude yourself with the corporate media talk about how Hunter's payoffs are "appropriate." The more Biden points to Trumpian corruption in response, the more they look the same, regardless of whatever important underlying differences you believe apply. Is this really the show you want to watch unfold for the next 10 months?

In short, Sanders should never have apologized for what Teachout wrote. She is among the leading legal experts on these issues and a thoroughly upstanding, righteous person. In response to those pretending to be concerned about Teachout's column, all that Sanders needed to say was that she is a law professor and she writes what she likes.

Apologizing for Teachout's column is probably a tactical move, yes. Look like a nice guy. "Unity." Teachout doesn't seem to mind, she just reiterated her endorsement of Sanders. (Is he now on the hook for her complete published ouevre, by the way?)

This is no time to apologize for straight and honest talk. Not from the guy who just told the assembled New York Times editorial board, to their faces, that they are sad creatures, empty suits, waiting for birthday cards from people who know they are full of shit. There is no going back.

The "centrist" campaigns, the party establishment, the corporate media, the Old Republican "Never-Trump" war criminals who have seized land among the Democrats, and the Clinton-gang punditry will continue to manufacture bogus, irrelevant, and outrageous attacks. Every single day.

They are following the same dirty strategy of personal slander that was thrown against Corbyn in the UK. They will show no limits, no shame, no concern whatsoever for any interest other than the narrow aim of destroying Sanders and the new left movements. They will tell you the Jewish socialist from Brooklyn is anti-Semitic. They will tell you he's too Jewish. They will tell you the country's most popular politician cannot win, and they will work toward that end. They are hostiles. If it means losing to Trump, they don't care. Some people prefer to watch the world burn.

The right way to deal with this rhetorical aggression is to take no shit. Hit back. Keep it brief, but no apologies. Stick to real politics. Make the calls. Win the damn votes. Once these forces are pushed back, it will be on them to decide just how much further they intend to help Trump's reelection. Fuck them.

Of course Sanders should not go as far as Tulsi Gabbard, but her lawsuit in response to Clinton, who literally accused her of treason, should serve as the guiding star in how to respond to slander from hostiles. Hit back, hard.

Sanders is rising at the right time. Unlike with Corbyn, who was battered by "his own side" for five years, the time-frame for establishing slanders against him is short.

Is it me, or do most Americans seem to have stopped caring about the daily corporate media bullshit? Are they perhaps suffering from bullshit overload? Either way, it's not sticking like it used to. My evidence is that after three years of the most fanatically repetitive top-down propaganda campaign I've ever seen in this country, most people care less than ever about the manufactured Russian threat. Quick, who's Oleg Deripaska?

Some of you do know the answer to that question, at least sort of. You may have convinced yourself this name is more important and consequential to the course of U.S. politics or the actions of the Trump regime than the Mercers, Prince, De Vos, Walton, Thiel, Gates and Bezos combined.

You exceptions are plentiful among my highly educated and generally sharp friends. A minority, but well ensconced in your filter bubbles. You are probably disillusioned with what a dud the #Russiagate main narrative proved to be, but now you cling to its offspring: the impeachment strategy that may as well have been designed to lose.

Are you actually deluding yourselves that John Fucking Murder-Man Bolton, who delivers keynote speeches at conventions of literal terrorist organizations (MEK), and who might dance in public if nuclear weapons were dropped on a few million Iranians, is going to help unseat Trump? Maybe, if you promise to drop that nuke for him.

It makes me sad to see you this way.

Are you taking inspiration from Schiff's unhinged war talk? The way he dehumanizes Russians, just like Trump dehumanizes Muslims and Mexicans (and everyone else)? Schiff is channeling no lesser criminal than G. W. Bush himself, repeating the slogan of "we must fight them," the Russians, "over there," meaning Ukraine -- what the fuck!? -- so "we don't fight them over here."

Please figure out that this does not damage Trump. Reaction is not the answer for reaction. Inciting more war in Ukraine is not your national security!

My friends, there is still hope for you. I'm not a liberal, I'm a leftist. But in what universe is this your liberalism? Rediscover your principles.
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Re: SANDERS 2020 is seriously dangerous <3

Postby bks » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:52 pm

Enjoying this exchange on Sanders btw PW and Jack (like old times here!). My thoughts:

1. It has to be admitted, with PW, that Sanders is a sheepdog, whatever else he is. He announced long ago he would play that role. He played in in 2016 and then got shit on for doing it so well for Clinton (25% of her 2008 voters supported McCain, while less than half that percentage of Sanders 2016 voters supported Trump); He's doing it again in 2020 for his friend, a serial confabulist, a racist, a sexually aggressive POS of a corporatist who very probably raped Tara Reade. The reasons don't matter much anymore, because no one has anything on him that he can't blunt by holding a press conference to tell his mass following exactly who's blackmailing him. My guess is: no one is.

2. Biden is a s responsible for the mass incarceration of black Americans as any Democratic ex-Senator still alive, counted many segregationists as friends, was always the strong ally of banks and CC companies (the Senator from MBNA, etc), and at the most fundamental level was the product of a mid-Century America where men of his aspired-to station saw women and minorities, at best, as props and accessories in a world in which they were the primary agents, and effectively owned.

He never evolved out of that fundamental outlook. Yet Sanders considers him a friend and never attacked him during the campaign. Why? It has to do with their joint membership in an exclusive club of 100 and, just as much, Sanders' pathetic record on US aggression, Zionism, and American exceptionalism more broadly. His politics basically suck - just less than all others. He always wanted to be one of the cool kids, and he is far too believing in the good he can do by just pressing policy a bit leftward. Those two proclivities together amount to a tragic failing for a person that just two months ago was a heavy favorite to win the Democratic party's nomination.

3. Despite all of this, had he hired a staff that included more experienced and respected figures, they could have perhaps steered him to the approach he needed to take to defeat a corpse like Biden. I have to believe his younger staff (Sirota, Gray, Turner) all understood what was needed, but they were not his most senior staff nor willing/able to act decisively when the entire establishment lined up against him during that fateful week or 10 days.

In any event, he's an abject failure from the perspective of what he was poised to achieve 8 weeks ago. That should be the measuring stick, not where he came from in 2015. He's gotten almost nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway in some other form - the leftward-ish drift of the party was coming anyway before him. He's always been simply an avatar for a movement that ALWAYS needed to surpass him in its radicalism. Now, he's a full-on schlemiel who begs for $3 bucks from people that would have emptied their bank accounts to support him if he would have just fought. a bit.
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