Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby wintler2 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:36 pm

beeline wrote:.

I've seen a lot of discussion regarding the supply-side of the peak oil equation, but has anyone addressed the demand side? In 1970 there were appx. 250,000,000 cars in used worldwide; today that number exceeds 1,100,000,000, more than a fourfold increase. And demand for cars will only increase as the economies of the developing world catch up to developed nations, i.e. India and China will have many more people with the means to buy cars in the very near future.

Source


Hi Beeline,
Thats alot of cars for sure, and it is taking a lot of oil to run them - ~87 million barrels a day (not all for cars of course, also ships, planes, pesticides, lubricants, plastics etc). Surely any profit orientated individual or company would be busy developing whatever they've got, rather than saving secret oil and creating the demand destruction clusterfuck/GFC we got in 08 when price spiked. Oil price triggered the GFC, collapsing the debt house house of cards, and it should have been no surprise to anyone that it did.

Image

Image


i think China is an interesting case - the Communist Party plc cares not about individual citizens but it knows it needs to keep enough of them happy/hopeful/car-spirational or it is finished. So it has for at least a decade been going around the world pushing cash at any government able to supply oil, Sudan being the posterchild for western hypocrites, but also Russia, Iran, Angola, Nigeria, Egypt, Gabon, Venezuela, Argentina..
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2500.html
http://bulletinacademic.co.uk/331_the-i ... diplomacy/
Our own glorious leaders of course beat this up as a mortal threat (to their paymasters), but my point is: why would China be making all this effort if there was plenty of oil? Because Hu Jintao obviously isn't relying on peak-denying CERA for his information.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby wintler2 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:53 pm

Just for laffs:
Published Jul 11 2011 by ASPO-USA, Archived Jul 11 2011

Dilithium Crystals "most likely" to power next generation
by Christine Patton

June 18, 2012 -- CAMBRIDGE, MASS --

In a Gallup poll released today, Americans chose dilithium crystals as the "most likely" fuel to run future cars and power plants, with 84% of Americans choosing the crystals over other options including nuclear, hydrogen, corn ethanol, shale gas, and photovoltaic solar panels. Respondents indicated that dilithium crystals are popular for providing quiet, clean energy, with a proven track record of seven-hundred twenty-six episodes in four different Star Trek television series.

Professor Stephen Palmer, of MIT, claims that dilithium crystals have "literally unlimited potential" for the future of energy, reporting, "Based on my research, which includes careful observation of over ten thousand hours of Deep Space Nine and Voyager re-runs, dilithium crystals have a virtually infinite capacity for power generation."

Palmer explains, "The crystals provide power for starship warp drives by channeling electro-plasma released by the mutual annihilation from extremely high temperatures and electro-magnetic radiation. And since Spock and Scotty solved the problem of gradual decrystalization during their time travel mission to the twenty-third century, all we have to do is harness this energy, and BAM! - we're set for the next five thousand years." ...
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2 ... generation
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby vanlose kid » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:17 pm

recent Bundeswehr study of Peak Oil fallout. thought i'd add it to the thread.

German military study warns of peak oil crisis

By Joe Romm on Sep 8, 2010 at 8:40 am

A study by a German military think tank has analyzed how “peak oil” might change the global economy. The internal draft document — leaked on the Internet — shows for the first time how carefully the German government has considered a potential energy crisis.

The term “peak oil” is used by energy experts to refer to a point in time when global oil reserves pass their zenith and production gradually begins to decline. This would result in a permanent supply crisis — and fear of it can trigger turbulence in commodity markets and on stock exchanges.

The issue is so politically explosive that it’s remarkable when an institution like the Bundeswehr, the German military, uses the term “peak oil” at all. But a military study currently circulating on the German blogosphere goes even further.


That’s from an article last week in Der Spiegel online. None of this is a surprise to CP readers (see “Peak oil production coming sooner than expected“) or to those who follow the once staid International Energy Agency (see World’s top energy economist warns: “We have to leave oil before oil leaves us”).

But what is remarkable is the source — and the bluntness of the report’s conclusions about political and economic impacts.
“The study, whose authenticity was confirmed to SPIEGEL ONLINE by sources in government circles” is by “the Future Analysis department of the Bundeswehr Transformation Center, a think tank tasked with fixing a direction for the German military”:

According to the German report, there is “some probability that peak oil will occur around the year 2010 and that the impact on security is expected to be felt 15 to 30 years later.”


This is what they expect for the 2020s and beyond:

• Oil will determine power: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center writes that oil will become one decisive factor in determining the new landscape of international relations: “The relative importance of the oil-producing nations in the international system is growing. These nations are using the advantages resulting from this to expand the scope of their domestic and foreign policies and establish themselves as a new or resurgent regional, or in some cases even global leading powers.”
• Increasing importance of oil exporters: For importers of oil more competition for resources will mean an increase in the number of nations competing for favor with oil-producing nations. For the latter this opens up a window of opportunity which can be used to implement political, economic or ideological aims. As this window of time will only be open for a limited period, “this could result in a more aggressive assertion of national interests on the part of the oil-producing nations.”
• Politics in place of the market: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center expects that a supply crisis would roll back the liberalization of the energy market. “The proportion of oil traded on the global, freely accessible oil market will diminish as more oil is traded through bi-national contracts,” the study states. In the long run, the study goes on, the global oil market, will only be able to follow the laws of the free market in a restricted way. “Bilateral, conditioned supply agreements and privileged partnerships, such as those seen prior to the oil crises of the 1970s, will once again come to the fore.”
• Market failures: The authors paint a bleak picture of the consequences resulting from a shortage of petroleum. As the transportation of goods depends on crude oil, international trade could be subject to colossal tax hikes. “Shortages in the supply of vital goods could arise” as a result, for example in food supplies. Oil is used directly or indirectly in the production of 95 percent of all industrial goods. Price shocks could therefore be seen in almost any industry and throughout all stages of the industrial supply chain. “In the medium term the global economic system and every market-oriented national economy would collapse.”
• Relapse into planned economy: Since virtually all economic sectors rely heavily on oil, peak oil could lead to a “partial or complete failure of markets,” says the study. “A conceivable alternative would be government rationing and the allocation of important goods or the setting of production schedules and other short-term coercive measures to replace market-based mechanisms in times of crisis.”
• Global chain reaction: “A restructuring of oil supplies will not be equally possible in all regions before the onset of peak oil,” says the study. “It is likely that a large number of states will not be in a position to make the necessary investments in time,” or with “sufficient magnitude.” If there were economic crashes in some regions of the world, Germany could be affected. Germany would not escape the crises of other countries, because it’s so tightly integrated into the global economy.
• Crisis of political legitimacy: The Bundeswehr study also raises fears for the survival of democracy itself. Parts of the population could perceive the upheaval triggered by peak oil “as a general systemic crisis.” This would create “room for ideological and extremist alternatives to existing forms of government.” Fragmentation of the affected population is likely and could “in extreme cases lead to open conflict.”

It would have been nice if there had been any reporting on how Germany might get itself off of oil, given how dire this report is.

Interestingly, the article notes:

The leak has parallels with recent reports from the UK. Only last week the Guardian newspaper reported that the British Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) is keeping documents secret which show the UK government is far more concerned about an impending supply crisis than it cares to admit.

According to the Guardian, the DECC, the Bank of England and the British Ministry of Defence are working alongside industry representatives to develop a crisis plan to deal with possible shortfalls in energy supply. Inquiries made by Britain’s so-called peak oil workshops to energy experts have been seen by SPIEGEL ONLINE.


You can read the Guardian piece here: “Peak oil alarm revealed by secret official talks.”

Replacing oil in the transportation sector requires strong government action two decades before a peak because of the time needed to replace vehicles and fuel infrastructure. That was the conclusion of a major study funded by the Department of Energy in 2005 — yes, the Bush DOE — on “Peaking of World Oil Production.”

The DOE report noted: “The world has never faced a problem like this. Without massive mitigation more than a decade before the fact, the problem will be pervasive and will not be temporary. Previous energy transitions (wood to coal and coal to oil) were gradual and evolutionary; oil peaking will be abrupt and revolutionary.”

Ouch! The same central point is true about global warming. If we want global carbon dioxide emissions to peak and start declining, the planet will need to start aggressive mitigation policies two decades in advance.

Since the climate and clean energy bill has died in the U.S. Senate with no serious possibility of comprehensive legislation for at least the next two years and likely the next several, the best chance of the nation proactively developing a peak oil strategy is all but gone.

For that reason, the likely impacts of peak oil will continue to be a focus of Climate Progress.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2010/09/0 ... ary-study/


Bundeswehr Military Study Warns of a Potentially Drastic Oil Crisis

'Peak Oil' and the German Government
Military Study Warns of a Potentially Drastic Oil Crisis


By Stefan Schultz

A study by a German military think tank has analyzed how "peak oil" might change the global economy. The internal draft document -- leaked on the Internet -- shows for the first time how carefully the German government has considered a potential energy crisis.

The term "peak oil" is used by energy experts to refer to a point in time when global oil reserves pass their zenith and production gradually begins to decline. This would result in a permanent supply crisis -- and fear of it can trigger turbulence in commodity markets and on stock exchanges.

The issue is so politically explosive that it's remarkable when an institution like the Bundeswehr, the German military, uses the term "peak oil" at all. But a military study currently circulating on the German blogosphere goes even further.

The study is a product of the Future Analysis department of the Bundeswehr Transformation Center, a think tank tasked with fixing a direction for the German military. The team of authors, led by Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Will, uses sometimes-dramatic language to depict the consequences of an irreversible depletion of raw materials. It warns of shifts in the global balance of power, of the formation of new relationships based on interdependency, of a decline in importance of the western industrial nations, of the "total collapse of the markets" and of serious political and economic crises.

The study, whose authenticity was confirmed to SPIEGEL ONLINE by sources in government circles, was not meant for publication. The document is said to be in draft stage and to consist solely of scientific opinion, which has not yet been edited by the Defense Ministry and other government bodies.

The lead author, Will, has declined to comment on the study. It remains doubtful that either the Bundeswehr or the German government would have consented to publish the document in its current form. But the study does show how intensively the German government has engaged with the question of peak oil.

Parallels to activities in the UK

The leak has parallels with recent reports from the UK. Only last week the Guardian newspaper reported that the British Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) is keeping documents secret which show the UK government is far more concerned about an impending supply crisis than it cares to admit.

According to the Guardian, the DECC, the Bank of England and the British Ministry of Defence are working alongside industry representatives to develop a crisis plan to deal with possible shortfalls in energy supply. Inquiries made by Britain's so-called peak oil workshops to energy experts have been seen by SPIEGEL ONLINE. A DECC spokeswoman sought to play down the process, telling the Guardian the enquiries were "routine" and had no political implications.

The Bundeswehr study may not have immediate political consequences, either, but it shows that the German government fears shortages could quickly arise.


A Litany of Market Failures
According to the German report, there is "some probability that peak oil will occur around the year 2010 and that the impact on security is expected to be felt 15 to 30 years later." The Bundeswehr prediction is consistent with those of well-known scientists who assume global oil production has either already passed its peak or will do so this year.


Market Failures and International Chain Reactions

The political and economic impacts of peak oil on Germany have now been studied for the first time in depth. The crude oil expert Steffen Bukold has evaluated and summarized the findings of the Bundeswehr study. Here is an overview of the central points:

Oil will determine power: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center writes that oil will become one decisive factor in determining the new landscape of international relations: "The relative importance of the oil-producing nations in the international system is growing. These nations are using the advantages resulting from this to expand the scope of their domestic and foreign policies and establish themselves as a new or resurgent regional, or in some cases even global leading powers."

Increasing importance of oil exporters: For importers of oil more competition for resources will mean an increase in the number of nations competing for favor with oil-producing nations. For the latter this opens up a window of opportunity which can be used to implement political, economic or ideological aims. As this window of time will only be open for a limited period, "this could result in a more aggressive assertion of national interests on the part of the oil-producing nations."

Politics in place of the market: The Bundeswehr Transformation Center expects that a supply crisis would roll back the liberalization of the energy market. "The proportion of oil traded on the global, freely accessible oil market will diminish as more oil is traded through bi-national contracts," the study states. In the long run, the study goes on, the global oil market, will only be able to follow the laws of the free market in a restricted way. "Bilateral, conditioned supply agreements and privileged partnerships, such as those seen prior to the oil crises of the 1970s, will once again come to the fore."

Market failures: The authors paint a bleak picture of the consequences resulting from a shortage of petroleum. As the transportation of goods depends on crude oil, international trade could be subject to colossal tax hikes. "Shortages in the supply of vital goods could arise" as a result, for example in food supplies. Oil is used directly or indirectly in the production of 95 percent of all industrial goods. Price shocks could therefore be seen in almost any industry and throughout all stages of the industrial supply chain. "In the medium term the global economic system and every market-oriented national economy would collapse."

Relapse into planned economy: Since virtually all economic sectors rely heavily on oil, peak oil could lead to a "partial or complete failure of markets," says the study. "A conceivable alternative would be government rationing and the allocation of important goods or the setting of production schedules and other short-term coercive measures to replace market-based mechanisms in times of crisis."

Global chain reaction: "A restructuring of oil supplies will not be equally possible in all regions before the onset of peak oil," says the study. "It is likely that a large number of states will not be in a position to make the necessary investments in time," or with "sufficient magnitude." If there were economic crashes in some regions of the world, Germany could be affected. Germany would not escape the crises of other countries, because it's so tightly integrated into the global economy.

Crisis of political legitimacy: The Bundeswehr study also raises fears for the survival of democracy itself. Parts of the population could perceive the upheaval triggered by peak oil "as a general systemic crisis." This would create "room for ideological and extremist alternatives to existing forms of government." Fragmentation of the affected population is likely and could "in extreme cases lead to open conflict."

The scenarios outlined by the Bundeswehr Transformation Center are drastic. Even more explosive politically are recommendations to the government that the energy experts have put forward based on these scenarios. They argue that "states dependent on oil imports" will be forced to "show more pragmatism toward oil-producing states in their foreign policy." Political priorities will have to be somewhat subordinated, they claim, to the overriding concern of securing energy supplies.

For example: Germany would have to be more flexible in relation toward Russia's foreign policy objectives. It would also have to show more restraint in its foreign policy toward Israel, to avoid alienating Arab oil-producing nations. Unconditional support for Israel and its right to exist is currently a cornerstone of German foreign policy.

The relationship with Russia, in particular, is of fundamental importance for German access to oil and gas, the study says. "For Germany, this involves a balancing act between stable and privileged relations with Russia and the sensitivities of (Germany's) eastern neighbors." In other words, Germany, if it wants to guarantee its own energy security, should be accommodating in relation to Moscow's foreign policy objectives, even if it means risking damage to its relations with Poland and other Eastern European states.

Peak oil would also have profound consequences for Berlin's posture toward the Middle East, according to the study. "A readjustment of Germany's Middle East policy … in favor of more intensive relations with producer countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, which have the largest conventional oil reserves in the region, might put a strain on German-Israeli relations, depending on the intensity of the policy change," the authors write.

When contacted by SPIEGEL ONLINE, the Defense Ministry declined to comment on the study.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/intern ... risis.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 38,00.html


from the comment section at WAB:

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Just one small note:

The study is a socalled "SFT21" study by the "Department of Future Analysis" of the Center for Transformation. It studies potential events that might influence German future politics and military setup, with a general horizon set at 2040. For the military it suggests as a possible part of a solution an evaluation of a "Green Forces Roadmap 2050", moving to "postfossile" energy sources between 2050 and 2100, such as using renewable energy sources at bases and using non-fossile energy sources in particular for ships and submarines (*cough*nuke boomers*cough*).


Peak oil alarm revealed by secret official talks

Behind government dismissals of 'alarmist' fears there is growing concern over critical future energy supplies

Terry Macalister and Lionel Badal
The Observer, Sunday 22 August 2010

Speculation that government ministers are far more concerned about a future supply crunch than they have admitted has been fuelled by the revelation that they are canvassing views from industry and the scientific community about "peak oil".

The Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) is also refusing to hand over policy documents about "peak oil" – the point at which oil production reaches its maximum and then declines – under the Freedom of Information (FoI) Act, despite releasing others in which it admits "secrecy around the topic is probably not good".

Experts say they have received a letter from David Mackay, chief scientific adviser to the DECC, asking for information and advice on peak oil amid a growing campaign from industrialists such as Sir Richard Branson for the government to put contingency plans in place to deal with any future crisis.

A spokeswoman for the department insisted the request from Mackay was "routine" and said there was no change of policy other than to keep the issue under review. The peak oil argument was effectively dismissed as alarmist by former energy minister Malcolm Wicks in a report to government last summer, while oil companies such as BP, which have major influence in Whitehall, take a similar line.

But documents obtained under the FoI Act seen by the Observer show that a "peak oil workshop" brought together staff from the DECC, the Bank of England and Ministry of Defence among others to discuss the issue.

A ministry note of that summit warned that "[Government] public lines on peak oil are 'not quite right'. They need to take account of climate change and put more emphasis on reducing demand and also the fact that peak oil may increase volatility in the market."

Those comments were written 12 months ago, but a letter in response to the FoI request written by DECC officials and dated 31 July 2010 says it can only release some information on what is currently under policy discussion because they are "ongoing" and "high profile" in nature.

The letter adds: "We recognise the public interest arguments in favour of disclosing this information. In particular we recognise that greater transparency makes government more open and accountable and could help provide an insight into peak oil.

"However any public interest in the disclosure of such information must be balanced with the need to ensure that ministers and advisers can discuss policy in a manner which allows for frank exchanges of views and opinions about important and sensitive issues."

Yet the note of the workshop distributed last year talks about secrecy around the topic being "probably not good", although it also suggests officials stick to the line that the "International Energy Agency is an authoritative source in this field" and stresses how the IEA believes there is sufficient reserves to meet demand till 2030 as long as investment in new reserves is maintained.

But the Paris-based organisation has come under increasing scrutiny from a growing group of critics who believe the IEA's optimism is misplaced. Last year the Guardian revealed that the IEA was also riven with dissent over the issue with senior staff members privately telling newspaper they thought the official numbers on future global oil supply were over-optimistic.

The IEA predicted in the 2009 World Energy Outlook published last November that oil demand would grow from 85m barrels a day today to 88m in 2015 and reach 105m in 2030. The organisation presumes the challenge of meeting that demand can equally be met by a mixture of higher Opec production and considerably more output from unconventional sources.

But an internal IEA source said: "Many inside the organisation believe that maintaining oil supplies at even 90m to 95m barrels a day would be impossible, but there are fears that panic could spread on the financial markets if the figures were brought down further. And the Americans fear the end of oil supremacy because it would threaten their power over access to oil resources."

The IEA has denied the claims of internal dissent and sticks by its figures. But Kjell Aleklett, a professor of physics at Uppsala University in Sweden and author of a report The Peak of the Oil Age, claims crude production is more likely to be 75m barrels a day by 2030 than the "unrealistic" 105m projected by the IEA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010 ... ange/print


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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby stickdog99 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:18 am

So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby Nordic » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:02 am

stickdog99 wrote:So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.


:roll:

You know, I've never met anyone in my life who suffers from the belief system that you seem to think so many of us suffer from.

I.E. you say that those who "believe" in "Peak Oil" think that we're all just gonna go down the tubes because, well, we BELEIVE in Big Oil and seem to think there's no other alternative but to keep our lips glued to the teat of Big Oil, and that we're just throwing up our hands and ripping our hair in despair because, by golly, Big Oil is the Only Game in Town and it's just too damn bad that everything is gonna go down in flames because Big Oil dictates that.

I mean, c'mon, that's just one of the WEIRDEST thought patterns I've ever stumbled across.

I've never met anyone like that because nobody like that exists.

Those who "believe" in Peak Oil, those with half a fucking brain, like most of us, think that we'd damn well better do something pretty fucking quick to get off of the oil addiction, because that monkey on our backs is gonna eat our brains out.

We all know damn well -- and what's bizarre is we all agree on this, even you (so what are we arguing about again?) -- that we need to leave Big Oil in history's dustbin and get our asses moving into the New World of alternative energies.

So tell you what. Tell me about a single person you've actually met who believes the way you seem to THINK a lot of us believe. Go on. It's nobody here, so it must be somebody in your "real" life. You know, a friend, a coworker, a family member.

Because if you actually know someone like this, I'd love to hear about it. It'd be like meeting someone with three arms or five feet or something. You know, a story to tell.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby Stephen Morgan » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:42 am

stickdog99 wrote:So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.


Call-me-Dave says so? I'm convinced!

Nordic wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.


:roll:

You know, I've never met anyone in my life who suffers from the belief system that you seem to think so many of us suffer from.

I.E. you say that those who "believe" in "Peak Oil" think that we're all just gonna go down the tubes because, well, we BELEIVE in Big Oil and seem to think there's no other alternative but to keep our lips glued to the teat of Big Oil, and that we're just throwing up our hands and ripping our hair in despair because, by golly, Big Oil is the Only Game in Town and it's just too damn bad that everything is gonna go down in flames because Big Oil dictates that.


That's pretty much how you act but, speaking for myself, I rather think you're just salivating over the much-anticipated End Of The World As We Know It. Finally, the shit is going to hit the fan. You can use up all that tinned food and bottled water you stored up for Y2K, and then after 9/11 for the coming UN takeover when all the dissidents would be put in the shackle-filled trains and sent off to the DIA underground internment centre. And you'll be all, like, told you so.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby wordspeak2 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:57 am

"We all know damn well -- and what's bizarre is we all agree on this, even you (so what are we arguing about again?) -- that we need to leave Big Oil in history's dustbin and get our asses moving into the New World of alternative energies."

No, Richard Heinberg says there's not enough time to transition to clean energy, and a human die-off is necessary (actually, he says it's inevitable). Most of the other "Peak Oil" prophets- witness lovely popular web sites such as www.dieoff.com- say the same thing, and wintler2 said the same in this thread, that clean energy could not substitute for oil in the context of "business as usual." Therefore... Which is the whole point. Therefore what?

Rational and progressives minds don't want "business as usual" either, but we don't see that as people diving. We see that as the war machine running out of control all over the world. Fight back politically, de-militarize, use our money and resources to fund vital environmental projects, including clean energy, as well progressive social service programs to alleviate poverty. But then you're called a socialist, which the "Peak Oil" writers decidedly are *not.*

So what we're "arguing about again," indeed, is the solution, because that's the upshot of this whole thing. Or perhaps we shouldn't be arguing with you so much, Nordic, but be careful with whom you keep company.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby wintler2 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:39 am

wordspeak2 wrote:..
So what we're "arguing about again," indeed, is the solution, because that's the upshot of this whole thing...

No, as i stated in first post and repeatedly since, this isn't about your fantasies on what i or other peak oilers think, its about whether oil production will/is/has peaked.

You keep trying to smear the messenger and have shown no interest in engaging on the topic. Whatever; it all adds to the threads stats.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:53 am

wordspeak2 wrote:No, Richard Heinberg says there's not enough time to transition to clean energy, and a human die-off is necessary (actually, he says it's inevitable). Most of the other "Peak Oil" prophets- witness lovely popular web sites such as http://www.dieoff.com- say the same thing, and wintler2 said the same in this thread, that clean energy could not substitute for oil in the context of "business as usual." Therefore... Which is the whole point. Therefore what?


You've made it clear you're not interested in the issue but in identifying and demonizing "Peak Oil prophets" and in casting yourself in opposition to whatever they say, even when they're right.

By the same logic, I should decide banks are okay, since many of the most vocal critics of banking bring along a lot of right-wing or economic "libertarian" baggage.

Engage the facts, not your choice of messengers and your idea of their character (or who you fantasize they are working for -- I've heard we're all Bolsheviks hired by the Rothschilds to prepare to kill everyone on the planet!)

Why is Saudi Arabia drilling offshore? Etc. (I've posted it like three times already.)

Furthermore I can't say I've read every word of Heinberg but you should cite chapter and verse if you're going to say he makes claims of population collapse as an inevitability (which would not be moral judgements or indications of what he wants, by the way). This is not the impression I've gathered from what I have read of him. I believe he considers it inevitable given the continuation of present conditions, and so should anyone. On the practical side he wants much the same actions as you do, supposedly: get away from the hydrocarbon beast (oil, natural gas and coal). If he doesn't believe it will work, so be it; just because one is pessimistic on what they take to be realistic grounds doesn't mean they desire the worst outcome. If he's wrong, so be it. I do not think he's working dishonestly in reaching his conclusions.

What's the debate about here? Supposedly, we'd all like to see an end to wars, a break up of the oil cartel's power, and a rational, non-catastrophic transition to renewable, (relatively) ecological and decentralized forms of energy, transport modes and agricultures (minus Morgan, who seems to think oil and even primary biofuel are dandy and abundant).

.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby Nordic » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:17 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.


Call-me-Dave says so? I'm convinced!

Nordic wrote:
stickdog99 wrote:So Peak Oil is not just what the Big Five oil companies think; it's what the German and British governments think as well.


:roll:

You know, I've never met anyone in my life who suffers from the belief system that you seem to think so many of us suffer from.

I.E. you say that those who "believe" in "Peak Oil" think that we're all just gonna go down the tubes because, well, we BELEIVE in Big Oil and seem to think there's no other alternative but to keep our lips glued to the teat of Big Oil, and that we're just throwing up our hands and ripping our hair in despair because, by golly, Big Oil is the Only Game in Town and it's just too damn bad that everything is gonna go down in flames because Big Oil dictates that.


That's pretty much how you act but, speaking for myself, I rather think you're just salivating over the much-anticipated End Of The World As We Know It. Finally, the shit is going to hit the fan. You can use up all that tinned food and bottled water you stored up for Y2K, and then after 9/11 for the coming UN takeover when all the dissidents would be put in the shackle-filled trains and sent off to the DIA underground internment centre. And you'll be all, like, told you so.



absolutely, 100 percent, and delusionally wrong! utterly and stupidly wrong.

laughably, and self-humiliatingly wrong.

you're assumptions about me are as factually wrong as your bizarre notions of feminist history.

and honestly i don't know anyone like you describe, except maybe the hairy shirtlessd guy who lives in his falling-apart van down by my local park.

you are simply making shit up inside your own head and believing it.

it's really kind of strange.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:03 pm

.

Here's Richard Heinberg:

Richard Heinberg, THE PARTY'S OVER Oil, War, and the Fate of Industrial Societies

There is much that individuals and communities can do to prepare for the energy crunch. Anything that promotes individual self-reliance (gardening, energy conservation, and voluntary simplicity) will help. But the strategy of individualist survivalism will offer only temporary and uncertain refuge during the energy down-slope. True individual and family security will come only with community solidarity and interdependence. Living in a community that is weathering the downslope well will enhance personal chances of surviving and prospering far more than will individual efforts at stockpiling tools or growing food.


What a monster!!!

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby wordspeak2 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:03 pm

Um, did you actually read the book, or just take one quote? "Community solidarity" means exactly what's happening in practice, which is upper-class white enclaves reducing their "carbon footprint" and further separating themselves from the rest of society. I'm living right in the middle of this shit. It's distinctly not a mass level solution; it's distinctly a privileged individualist, non-class solution. It means get your people together, head to the hills, try to go solar. Save yourselves from the impending doom.

I've seen Heinberg speak in person, and heard him speak to the ecological "need" for half the world's population to die off. Not even lip service is given to social justice by Mr. Heinberg, and alternative energies on any mass level are dismissed.

Which is all probably why his book is endorsed by open white supremacist ("ethnic separatist") Virginia Abernethy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Abernethy
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby Nordic » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:01 pm

that doesn't mean that peak oil doesn't exist, it just means you don't like heinberg.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby slimmouse » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:49 pm

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this whole debate often smacks to me of two bald men fighting over a comb insofaras there are more than enough alternatives to oil which have been continuously suppressed. Crushed like bugs by the corporate reptiles.

From the work of Tesla, to the many ongoing instances of cold fusion, to the safe nuclear fuel alternatives, conveniently and doubtless "accidently" ignored by the lizards in their quest to find something more powerful in their eyes - namely something that could blow the non reptiles to bits , tax us more via their weapons, poison us more in order for their medical industries to extract a further pound of flesh - theres more than enough evidence to all but the blind man that this oil boohaha is exactly that.

Seriously...
Last edited by slimmouse on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

Postby Nordic » Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:00 pm

it reminds me more of someone with bad diabetes. the gangrene is setting in to the feet, and one of the doctors is suggesting amputation to save the rest of the body, and the patient doesn't like that, so he's saying "you're lying to me about my diabetes! you just enjoy cutting off people's feet!"
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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