What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wallflower » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:57 pm

Nordic wrote:
On a recent job I hired a young woman. She was really cool and I really like her. She was also pretty green and inexperienced. I found myself being WAY nicer to her than I would be to a guy of the same experience level. The guy who works directly under me, who is in charge of hiring all of them (with my approval and input), told me I was being too nice to her. He may have been right. With the guys I'm really strict, and I treat them, well, like guys. With this young woman I treated her with far less strict oversight and with a far more forgiving attitude. I was "nicer". Honestly, with guys, I don't really care about their feelings so much, they're guys and they're gonna have to deal with it. With women? I'm more careful of their feelings.

Now, is that misogyny on my part? Or the opposite?


This anecdote seems to point to something really important, but I'm not sure I'm really smart enough to figure out how it is so. So just superficially, one reason I think it's important is the paradox: I love the women and girls in my life, dearly, I don't hate them. At the same time it's impossible for me to ignore that the deck is stacked against women and girls. So what am I supposed to do about that? A generic answer might be to struggle, but that answer doesn't provide much clue in the particular.

Mike Konczal has a good post up for International Women's Day. By the way: Happy Women's Day :partyhat "International Woman’s Day, Wendy Brown, and What Feminist Theory Can Do For You." http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/international-woman%E2%80%99s-day-wendy-brown-and-what-feminist-theory-can-do-for-you/

Konczal posts a snippet of an article by Wendy Brown in Brown's book "States of Injury" http://www.amazon.com/States-Injury-Wendy-Brown/dp/069102989X Unfortunately the snippet is posted in the form of a JPG image. Brown outlines constitute terms of liberal discourse which depend on an opposition to a subject and set of activities marked as feminine.

equality--difference
liberty--necessity/encumbrance
autonomy--dependent/dependents
rights--needs/relations/duty
individual--family
self-interest--selflessness
public--private
contract--consent

As they say, it's worth reading the whole thing, but I'll copy Konczal's concluding:

I’d argue that everyone who wants this project to succeed needs to engage in the the feminist critique of liberalism.

Why? Academic feminism has thought deeply about two arguments that need to be addressed. The first is that that the project is larger than stagnating wages, something that can’t be addressed by the differential inflationary impacts of the consumption of cheap electronic goods and really cheap food. The issue is about freedom and autonomy. The subject that can lead a life of equality, liberty, autonomy in the public is not a given or a prerequisite to society but instead a political creation, something created only through struggle.

The second is that a contract, like a marriage contract or like a labor contract, can be “freely” entered into but still contain elements of coercion to it. Coercion can still be the central characteristic of it. That the market is a series of voluntary transactions, and any outcome of it just, is an illusion. How to pull away that veil is the project, and feminist thought gives us a start on it.


It's uncomfortable when faced with a situation that reveals patterns of dominance that we've never consciously considered. In Brown's list of dichotomies surely we consider the right column important as well as the left. But we generally accept the dominance of the left column until presented with a situation we're not sure that dominance makes sense; like a women working on a crew when heretofore all the crews had been exclusively men. The solution doesn't seem to be to treat everyone--man and women--alike, because the presence of a woman seems to upset a whole list of unexamined assumptions. So we're left to struggle for a solution.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:12 pm

Wendy Brown wrote:Image
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:52 am

Nordic wrote:I'll throw something out there that I've seen in my life, just for the hell of it, because I'm unemployed again today (damn women are taking all the jobs!)<------JOKE

In my "day job" I do lighting for the entertainment business. It's probably about 97% guys who do this stuff. Often I am in charge. Probably 97% of the time there aren't women on our crew, because, well, there just are hardly any in existence. It's extremely physically demanding to the point of being brutal, it's a bit dangerous, involves huge amounts of electricity, and honestly it helps to be able to literally throw some weight around. Women just don't get into this field, in general.

On a recent job I hired a young woman. She was really cool and I really like her. She was also pretty green and inexperienced. I found myself being WAY nicer to her than I would be to a guy of the same experience level. The guy who works directly under me, who is in charge of hiring all of them (with my approval and input), told me I was being too nice to her. He may have been right. With the guys I'm really strict, and I treat them, well, like guys. With this young woman I treated her with far less strict oversight and with a far more forgiving attitude. I was "nicer". Honestly, with guys, I don't really care about their feelings so much, they're guys and they're gonna have to deal with it. With women? I'm more careful of their feelings.

Now, is that misogyny on my part? Or the opposite?

I'm serious, I'm curious what others think of this.


That's neither misogyny nor sexism. It's being nice to someone who probably feels self-conscious and wary of harassment and/or hazing when you're in a position of authority and are able to do that responsibly. Or possibly it's just acting like you like whom you like and are who you are, which is also fine.

I mean, I'm assuming that labor conditions were fair for everyone, right? Anyway. I think it was very nice and supportive of you. And....I don't know. You might do the same for, let's say, a kid who was new to the crew and whom you felt a mild mentoring impulse toward, wouldn't you? Who was male?

Anyway. I don't see that gender politics really apply. You were being a decent person and boss, sounds like. And maybe a little bit of a flirt? I don't know. But there's nothing wrong with it, either way, imo.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Hammer of Los » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:01 am

What a nice reply from C2W! Thank heaven someone is throwing some water on the fire!

Quick response to nordic: perhaps also you are generally more polite, less given to obscenity, more considerate towards women than you are to men. I think I probably am, but then women have always been nicer to me than men, so I am just returning the favour. Also it occurs to me that women don't present a threat to men in the same way as another man does; between men, there is always a certain amount of competitiveness, a wariness, the desire to appear strong, not weak.

It's good to be aware of the impulses that drive you, you know; self examination.

I also think men should be allowed to post on the subject of misogyny. They are the experts in this field, after all.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:00 pm

A Wikileaks Cable From Moscow

US Ambassador John Beyrle: "Feminism" is a Dirty Word in Russia

By ISRAEL SHAMIR

As some countries celebrate International Women’s Day on March 8, we present here on the CounterPunch site a previously unpublished Wikileaks cable on women’s rights in Russia, signed by the current U.S. Ambassador to the Russian Federation, John Beyrle, a career foreign service officer who assumed his present post in 2008. He had served two previous tours in the Moscow embassy.

Categorized as “sensitive” and “not for publication”, Beyrle’s cable affords an interesting insight on Russian sisterhood. The Russian women had full equal rights in the Soviet days, says the US Ambassador, and even now Russia has the most liberal laws on gender equality. The gap between men and women’s wages is just about 15 percent, as opposed to 35 per cent in the US. Russia does not know sex harassment cases; women are bothered all right, but they do not complain. A young student inquired incredulously: "Is it really true, that in an American office, a man cannot touch a woman, or else she will take him to court?" She added that perhaps the woman might find the attention pleasing. Indeed, the Russian women are fighting for their right not to pursue a career and would rather stay home.

We also learn from the Wiki cable that since the fall of Soviet socialist model accompanied by de-industrialization, men’s lot took a sharp turn for worse: men commit suicides in droves, and men’s life expectancy is a full 12 years shorter than that of women. With the advent of capitalism, many women believed in the Cinderella dream of marrying a rich man; now only 5 per cent stick to this hope. Russian women want to be beautiful and they put a lot of effort into it, including wearing quite provocative dresses even to their workplace. The Ambassador noted that “feminism” is a dirty word in Russia; none admit to it.

Now the cable.

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 MOSCOW 001647 SENSITIVE SIPDIS E.O. 12958: N/A TAGS: PHUM, KDEM, EFIN, SOCI, KWMN, RS SUBJECT: FOR RUSSIAN WOMEN, SURVIVAL TRUMPS RIGHTS

1. (SBU) Summary:

Despite liberal laws and official Russian policy protecting women's rights, Russian women routinely suffer rights abuses in their daily lives, including violence and sexual harassment. Centuries-old patriarchal attitudes continue to hold sway. Soviet ideology temporarily and marginally elevated women's legal status, but subsequent economic woes exacerbated women's social problems. Alcoholism and poverty, often associated with spousal abuse, have also caused a demographic decline of men. The shortage of working men forces many women to work as breadwinners, while maintaining their role as the primary family caregiver, and it also decreases women's incentive to complain publicly about rights abuses. Even prominent women's rights activists distance themselves from "feminism," leading to a diminished women's rights movement in the country. This cable is the first in a series on women's issues in Russia. End Summary.

Good laws, but reality is different -

2. (SBU) Russian policy and women's rights laws, which were drafted in the 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union, are among the most liberal in the world. The 1993 Constitution of the Russian Federation, in its section on women's rights, closely follows the "Bill of Women's Rights" found in Optional Protocol to the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW). Article 19 of the Russian Constitution states that men and women shall have equal rights and equal opportunity. Russia has had the equivalent of the U.S. Lilly Ledbetter law (recently signed by Obama) on equal pay on its books since early Bolshevik days.

3. (SBU) In reality, however, Russian women routinely suffer rights abuses, discrimination, and inequality in their daily lives. Shelters and rights organizations report tens of thousands of cases involving battered women - including approximately 12,000 killed annually - but reported cases are only a small percentage of the full number. Such abuse is not limited to poor families; in a 2007 Moscow State University study of upper-income families, 70 per cent of the women reported having suffered violence, including during pregnancy. In a June 11 conversation with us, Larissa Mikhaylovna, a professor in the journalism faculty at Moscow State University, attributed the problem to ingrained social attitudes in Russian culture, going back centuries. Alluding to the medieval monk Domostroy, who wrote that a husband must use violence to control his wife and to show that he loves her, Mikhaylovna said that this belief remains common today.

4. (SBU) According to the NGO ANNA, which defends battered women, men who commit acts of domestic violence are unlikely to face prosecution in Russia. The law does not recognize domestic violence as a distinct crime, and nearly fifty versions of a national law to address domestic violence have failed to make any progress in the State Duma. Natalya Abubikirova, who runs the Association of Women's Crisis Centers, told us June 15 that there is little government assistance for women's shelters; nearly all of them are run by NGOs with limited funds, and the approximately 20 shelters nationwide (including three on the outskirts of Moscow, and none in Moscow city) with 200 beds in total are woefully insufficient to accommodate the large number of cases. The domestic violence problem is also considerably worse than the numbers indicate, as societal attitudes discourage women from publicly complaining about abuse.

5. (SBU) Russian women rarely complain publicly about sexual harassment, despite its ubiquitous presence in the Russian workplace. Although a 2007 survey also showed that 100 per cent of female respondents with a job reported having suffered sexual harassment at work, only three women in Russian history have lodged a sexual harassment complaint in court; all three lost their cases. The attitude that sexual harassment is acceptable is widespread among both genders in Russia. Job advertisements routinely indicate age and gender requirements for a position, and Association of Women Journalists director Svetlana Svistunova told us June 15 that "job applications are like a beauty contest." After an Embassy event introducing Russian female activists and leaders to an American feminist, a journalism doctoral student at the Higher School of Economics expressed skepticism to us about the goals of the U.S. women's rights movement. "Is it really true," she inquired incredulously, "that in an American office, a man cannot touch a woman, or else she will take him to court?" She added that perhaps the woman might find the attention pleasing. (Note: Some women object to the sexual stereotypes that they are expected to live up to in Russia. In a May 20 conversation with us, Dr. Galina Mikhaleva, Chair of the Yabloko party's Gender Faction, noted that "in other countries, you do not show up MOSCOW 00001647 002 OF 004 to work in a mini-skirt." End Note.) In this atmosphere of sexual exploitation, it is not surprising that according to a May 4 Reuters article, Moscow houses ten times the number of prostitutes (100,000) than either London or New York.

6. (SBU) The issue of family planning and reproductive rights, an issue of major concern for Western feminists, is barely on the radar screen in Russia. Svetlana Yakimenko, the Director of Project Kesher, an international women's rights NGO, told us May 21 that Planned Parenthood International had a difficult time gaining a foothold in Russia and faces opposition to its work from both the GOR and the Orthodox Church. She added that education regarding family planning is woefully inadequate among both genders, especially outside of the big cities. The GOR pursues an official policy of encouraging women to have as many children as possible in order to counteract the country's demographic problems, but many women are reluctant to have children, as they are aware of the likelihood that they will have to raise them as single mothers. (Note: The Human Rights Ombdusman recently released his annual report on human rights in Russia, encompassing a variety of subjects but saying nothing about women's rights, and only noting the need for families to have more children. End Note.) According to Mikhaleva, Russia's abortion rate is one of the highest in the world; for every 100 births there are approximately 200 abortions.

A worsening problem since Soviet times -

7. (SBU) Soviet ideology elevated women's status in society, teaching that women should work alongside men in building a socialist utopia. A women's rights expert based at the Institute of North American Studies, Natalya Shvedova, told us June 10 that Soviet propaganda successfully influenced popular attitudes. Women in the Soviet Union were often held up as shining examples of workers making the country strong; illustrating this point, Svistunova mentioned the example of the female sculptor who created the iconic "Worker and Peasant Farmer" statue that represented Communist ideals. At the same time, however, Svistunova noted that even in such an ideological atmosphere, women rarely held high positions in the Politburo or as factory managers. With perestroika, the old patriarchal traditions returned, in which women were viewed as keepers of the hearth. Shvedova said that perestroika had "coarsened" Russian society; in place of building a socialist utopia, since the fall of Communism the average Russian has focused instead on competition for scarce resources.

8. (SBU) The social pressures imposed by economic difficulties since the fall of Communism have pushed many women into the position of focusing more on survival than on defending their rights. They often must either support their family single-handedly in the absence of a man in their life, or tolerate abuse from a man who is present. The life expectancy for men in Russia, 61, is one of the lowest in the world, and a full 12 years less than that of women. Much of this problem can be attributed to alcohol. According to the World Health Organization, per capita consumption of alcohol in Russia exceeds by fourfold the acceptable limit. Male consumption of alcohol, particularly in smaller towns and villages, deals two blows to women: first, it frequently exacerbates tension and violence in male-female relationships, and second, the absence of working men affects women's socio-economic welfare. Both the demographic disparity and the 75 percent divorce rate mean that women commonly are stretched thin by the need to support themselves - and often their children - which increases their incentive to put up with abuse. Svistunova asserted that the economic basis of gender relations that has accompanied the post-Soviet era has led most women to view men largely as sources of money. As many men are unable to fulfill that role, she said, this exacerbates the alcohol problem and also has led to a high rate of suicide among men, which in its turn, worsens the demographic problem.

Oppression is in the eye of the beholder -

8. (SBU) Perhaps because of many women focus on pragmatic necessity under difficult conditions, our contacts tell us that the majority of Russian women say that they do not consider themselves oppressed. Although women are rarely found in positions of significant political or economic power (as well as other allegedly "male" professions such as driving Metro trains), few report any problems receiving a good education and pursuing a career of some kind, even if the career is not always commensurate with their education level. According to Mikhaylovna, who tracks wage statistics, the wage disparity between the genders - 15 percent - is MOSCOW 00001647 003 OF 004 considerably lower than in other countries. (Note: In the U.S., the disparity is 35 percent; some Russian studies have found the Russian disparity to be higher as well. End Note.) However, while feminist goals often include the right to pursue a career, a number of Russian women ironically would prefer the right not to pursue a career. Consistently, both in private conversations with us and publicly on television and radio shows, we have heard women express the intention of meeting a man (Russian or foreign) who is wealthy enough to support them so that they are not required to work and raise a family at the same time. In keeping with such goals, advertisements for beauty products are ubiquitous in Russia; in one recent ad for a skin product, rather than "Pamper yourself," or "Indulge yourself," the billboard suggested: "Invest in yourself."

9. (SBU) Svistunova traced this attitude back to Soviet times, when everyone of both genders was required to work, except "the wives of the big shots." When Gorbachev encouraged women to leave their jobs and care for kids, and provided three years of paid maternity leave for the purpose (since decreased to one year), women did so enthusiastically. Svistunova added that after perestroika, Russian women developed a "mania" for beauty, and in the 1990s it was common "to hunt for a foreign man." In the following decade, she said, attention transferred to "New Russian" moguls. Such attitudes, while still widespread, are now starting to diminish. What Svistuna sardonically called "this pretty life" (of support from a rich man) exists only for five percent of women, and many others are starting to recognize it as a "fairy tale." Furthermore, women are increasingly starting to view such an arrangement as unsatisfactory, as it turns the women into objects who are kept in a golden cage. In a potentially bright spot amidst bleak statistics and backward attitudes, Svistunova describes conversations with her 20-year-old daughter and her daughter's female friends in which they express interest in establishing themselves as confident and independent, pursuing their own careers and personal fulfillment.

Is "feminism" a dirty word? -

10. (SBU) Such encouraging signs notwithstanding, widespread attitudes among both genders remain at variance with feminism as it is understood in the West, and most Russian women continue to shun the term "feminism." Mikhaylovna noted that many Russian women encourage machismo in their sons and husbands; this is seen as necessary in a rough-and-tumble country that historically has had to defend itself against invaders. She added that many view feminism as synonymous with hatred of men. She said that in her opinion, feminism means women respecting themselves without denigrating men, and quoted the American feminist Rebecca West, who said in 1913, "I don't know what feminism is, but every time I don't want someone to wipe their feet on me, I am called a feminist." However, she acknowledged that her opinion was a minority one. In reality, as Svistunova lamented, even prominent women's rights activists distance themselves from feminism. She said that Russian female activists need to "reanimate" the feminist movement, but lamented that "we can't get people interested," because of perceptions that it is too "political." She cautioned, however, against forming the impression that Russian women are submissive; on the contrary, she said that in the private environment of the home, they assert themselves strongly and "command the men."

11. (SBU) At both the official and the societal level, consciousness of women's rights remains embryonic. Shvedova - who was a Fulbright scholar at Trinity College in Washington, DC in 2005 - said that the women's rights movement in Russia is at the stage that the American movement was many decades ago. In Russian universities, gender studies rarely exist as a subject, but are folded into classes on "social problems." Even if the GOR had a concerted policy of encouraging and defending women's rights to accompany its liberal legislation, it would face an uphill battle changing societal attitudes. As it is, the GOR does little to address the subject, and Mikhaylovna accuses the GOR of fostering patriarchal attitudes through its emphasis on "mother capital" as part of its stated goal to strengthen Russia. In 2008, during a State Duma meeting on women's issues, Liberal Democratic Party nationalist leader Vladimir Zhirinovskiy infuriated many women when he stated that women should stay at home and have children, and let men take care of everything else. C

Comment -

12. (SBU) Many Russian women seek the same rights as women in other countries, such as safety from domestic violence and the right to equal pay for equal work. However, the context in which they attempt to assert those rights differs considerably from that in the Western context. As they often find themselves fulfilling both traditional male and traditional female roles, while men are either nowhere to be found or are incapacitated and/or abusive, Russian women are focusing more on simple survival than on organizing a Russian version of the National Organization for Women. Until demographic trends in Russia change, the social dynamic between the genders in Russia will continue to discourage women from taking the time, energy, or initiative to publicly stand up for their rights in a manner similar to Western feminists.






Female Sexuality Still Terrifying to Conservative Lawmakers
The dusty old argument that female sexuality is a subversive force that needs to be strictly controlled is alive and well in the GOP.
March 8, 2011 |


The Republican attack on Planned Parenthood, in the form of the House zeroing out funding for the organization in the continuing resolution on the federal budget, seemingly came out of nowhere. For decades, the kinds of services provided with federal dollars by Planned Parenthood---contraception, STD testing and treatment, cancer screening---had been assumed non-controversial by the Beltway media. The reproductive rights debate was framed mainly as a fight over bodily autonomy versus fetal life, between secular humanists and religious folks who believed fertilized eggs had souls.

So why then an attack funding STD treatment and contraception? Why, all of a sudden, do you have politicians like Rep. Steve King railing against Planned Parenthood not because of fetal life---after all, depriving women of contraception access will likely increase the abortion rate---but because Planned Parenthood is “invested in promiscuity”? Why do you have a conservative figurehead like Sean Hannity arguing not that abortion is wrong because it’s taking a life, but because teenage girls shouldn't be making out in the back seats of cars in the first place? Why is Gov. Scott Walker not only attacking collective bargaining rights in the state of Wisconsin, but trying to eliminate contraception coverage (but not erectile dysfunction medication) on the grounds of “morality”?

The dusty old argument that female sexuality is a subversive force that needs to be strictly controlled isn’t as dead as we thought. The mainstream conservative movement is bringing it out of hibernation, and this time with a twist: now they’re arguing that women need to have their rights taken from them for their own good.

In the decades prior to Griswold v. Connecticut and Roe v. Wade--the Supreme Court decisions that legalized contraception and abortion, respectively--the arguments for restrictions on women’s reproductive rights barely needed explanation. Millennia of male dominance, from the mythology of Eve to the The Seven Year Itch, held that female sexuality so threatened the bonds of society that controlling it took precedence over allowing women rights. But after these groundbreaking Supreme Court decisions established women’s right to privacy, opponents of reproductive rights were forced to switch gears.

Enter the fetus. Striking a pose of concern for “fetal rights” allowed the anti-choice movement to attack at least one tool women use to claim ownership over their own sexuality, and sadly, anti-choicers made dramatic inroads against abortion rights hiding behind the fetus. But claims about fetal life don’t produce a clear path to arguing against access to contraception and medical care for STDs. Not that conservatives haven’t tried. The fringe of the anti-choice movement has attacked (at times, with mild success) contraception access with claims that hormonal contraception is a form of abortion, but this kind of argument is stalled because of the scientific and common sense evidence against it.

Returning to arguments that paint female sexuality as a corrosive force that must be controlled by restricting women’s rights has been a steady desire in the anti-choice movement. But how, when the public sees the sadism in that argument for what it is? The answer that conservatives have happened upon is to argue that women need to be denied their rights for their own good.

For years now, arguing against women’s rights for women’s supposed wellbeing has been worked with surprising success on the already contentious field of abortion. Arguments that women are victims of their own freedom have been successfully wielded to restrict women’s access to abortion. In various states, legislators have passed mandatory waiting periods and ultrasound laws by arguing that they need to protect women from their own rash decisions. Even the Supreme Court engaged with the paternalistic argument, banning a certain later-term abortion procedure because, as Justice Kennedy explained in the majority decision, women might later regret the decision.

After years of using paternalism against abortion rights, Republicans have taken twinning the majority in the House as the signal to expand the “restrict women’s rights for their own good” arguments to contraception. The initial target is Planned Parenthood, but it will likely not be the last.

Fringe anti-choicers have been trying out arguments that contraception is bad for women for years now in their own circles. The gist of it is that the widespread availability of contraception has lured naïve women into thinking they can have sex whenever they want, and the result has been nothing but misery for women: serial abortions, abandonment by men, depression and loneliness. Men, the argument goes, are no longer forced into marriage with women who withhold sex or get pregnant to trap men. And apparently women need begrudgingly formed marriages to be happy.

In support of defunding Planned Parenthood, you’re seeing this “contraception begets sex begets misery for women” argument repeated in far more mainstream channels than you would have even a few months ago. National Review editor Kathryn Lopez attacked Planned Parenthood on the grounds that access to contraception had killed romance and laid waste to women’s chances at marriage. (How she explains the profits of the wedding industry in an era when people have supposedly stopped marrying is beyond me.)

Ross Douthat took Lopez’s argument and gussied it up with tortured statistics, while making essentially the same argument in the New York Times. Male commitment is the necessary ingredient for female happiness, he argued, and Planned Parenthood inhibits women from this goal by allowing sexually active single women the same access as the monogamous. Women should want to lose their access to affordable contraception, he insinuated, as it would turn them from cat-owning spinsters into girlfriends and maybe even wives.

Most disturbingly, the supposed feminist Democrat of Fox News, Kirsten Powers, argued in the Daily Beast that contraception doesn’t even prevent abortion. Her unique twist on the argument that women’s rights hurt women was not that rights deprive women of husbands so much as depriving them of babies, by tricking them into not reproducing. The basic argument is the same: women are too stupid to know what they want, and so the government will have to take away contraception for their own good.

Even if Planned Parenthood survives this attempt to strip it of its federal subsidies, the anti-choice movement has gained a significant amount of rhetorical ground in the past few months. Arguments that women can’t be trusted with contraception were resigned to fringe blogs decorated with fetal guts in the past, but now the very same radical anti-sex arguments are being bandied around in the Daily Beast and the New York Times. The mainstream assumption that contraception isn’t controversial has been challenged. Next time contraception access gets threatened---likely when the HHS tries to make birth control mandatory coverage under health care reform---these arguments will be trotted out. Next time, they won’t seem quite as radical.
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Re: Re:

Postby barracuda » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:36 pm

Alright. I must admit that I had hopes that this thread would sink quietly to the second page of General Discussion as an adjunct to the implementation of the new guideline regarding gender as posted by Jeff on page 473 of this never-ending discussion. Alas, it was not to be.

Stephen, I would like to give my attention to many of your various contentions poorly disguised behind the slipping mask of so-called dialectic, but I need to begin with this statement, which doesn't really pertain directly to the topic at hand, although I feel compelled to address it first. I should add that were we actually having this discussion in real life, my responses would almost certainly have evolved into a series of interpretive dances, as I think we are at the point in our discourse whereupon this technique may have value. Sadly, I must work within the constraints of the given format, so...

Stephen Morgan wrote:
As far as I can tell none of the women I know believe themselves to be the persecuted underclass of a patriarchal state, so perhaps they're all lying, conniving, idiots, but I suppose that only cuts one way.


Apparently you are saying you don't know any of the women on the forum.


I don't consider myself to know people I only "know" on the internet. At the very least I need to know someone's real name and face, and be able to put them together, or I don't know them.


So. These statements pose a number of impediments to my understanding of your perspective. Maybe I should make a list:

1.) "As far as I can tell none of the women I know believe themselves to be the persecuted underclass of a patriarchal state..."

    - This is an example of the sort of anecdotal evidence from a man's point of view which has been raised over and again on this thread.

    - I can counter this specious argument by merely insisting that all of the women I know believe themselves to be the persecuted underclass of a patriarchal state, and we are back at square one.

    - The question arises as to exactly how these women you know were surveyed as to the extent of their identification as a part of a persecuted underclass. Did you ask them straight out? Did you perform this survey in person? Were you presenting your interlocutions in your customary attire and demeanor? (At this point I feel it is necessary and prudent to advise the gentle readers of this discussion as to a few of the particulars of Stephen's appearance and habituations, as related by himself to me in another thread. He is a large blond man, who has not cut his hair or beard in decades, bathes only inconsistantly, cuts his finger- and toe-nails with scissors, and speaks with a nearly unintelligible local accent. His preferred climate is severe cold, and he only rarely eats vegetables.)

    - I am not trying to imply that perhaps the women of your survey may not have felt entirely comfortable in being completely forthcoming with regards to your question, merely floating that possibility as a little boat upon the stream of my thought processes here.

2.) "At the very least I need to know someone's real name and face, and be able to put them together, or I don't know them."

    - I would contend that merely connecting a face to a name is hardly the extent of qualifications as to actually knowing someone.

    - It may be observed that though one has connected a face to a name in this manner, the knowledge of that person's thoughts on various subjects, and in fact, the depth of their personality may be rather less well known to you, in fact, than the personality of these individuals with whom you have shared several years worth of yours and their most complex and deeply felt ideas and viewpoints.

    - I can assure you that having actually taken advantage of the opportunity to travel and attend a meeting of persons associated witrh this board, a meeting which included the attendance of at least six women members of the forum, the conjugation of our physical bodies in proximate space was merely an enjoyable addition to the pre-existing knowledge we had already encompassed via our congress on this forum. In other words, we met as old friends, and I feel I can assure you that were you to meet the members here in like circumstance, your results would be highly similar, depending in a small way, of course, upon the state of your personal hygene at that moment.

In other words, Stephen, please take the opportunity to allow yourself the pleasure of knowing people here on the forum, and allowing their opinions on how they feel regarding the subject at hand to have at least an equal weight to those persons who have shared what I can only think must truely be the unfettered joy of a face-to-face encounter with your personable self. I can see no other way towards community here.
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Re: Re:

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:47 pm

.

You know, I'd never expect something that started as ironically Stalinist as this:

barracuda wrote:as an adjunct to the implementation of the new guideline regarding gender as posted by Jeff on page 473 of this never-ending


To end up in a place as beautiful as it did. Rather than quote the conclusion and ruin the journey, allow me to loop back to barracuda:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31392&p=388325#p388323

Really.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby DevilYouKnow » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:29 pm

What constitutes misogyny?

This:

L.C., the young woman in the video, lives in poverty in Lima, Peru. At the age of 13, she was raped repeatedly by a 34-year-old man, but when she discovered that she was pregnant, he denied that the child could be his. In desperation, L.C. tried to commit suicide by jumping from a window, but didn't die; instead, she lay on the ground for hours, paralyzed. When she was finally found and taken to the hospital, doctors refused to operate because she was pregnant, but also refused her family's petition for a therapeutic abortion.

http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/peruvian-teen-jumps-out-of-window-after/

And this:

The story of young women who simply disappear is all too common in this border city, but in the last two years, gendered violence has been drawn into the broader blood pool in Mexico’s murder capital. A grisly drug war has claimed at least 7,800 lives in the city since 2008.

But femicides, or targeted attacks on women represent something different from the killings affecting all residents, activists say.

'International shame'

The Mexican government does not keep official statistics on these femicides, says Flor Cuevas, a member of the Chihuahua State Human Rights Commission.

"There is a negative attitude from government towards the problem," Cuevas said during an interview in her Juarez office. "Femicides must be covered up, as they are an international shame."

El Diario newspaper, the most respected daily in this city of about 1.2 million, has estimated that 878 women were killed between 1993 and 2010, although activists think the figure is far higher and well into the thousands.

Jazmine Ponce went missing while going to apply for a job she had seen advertisied at a "very nice boot store", her mother said.

Many of the young women who disappeared in the 1990s worked in Juarez’s infamous maquiladoras, factories paying a minimum wage of about $5 per day in a city where housing and food costs are not much less than in the US.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/03/201138142312445430.html

...and this:

Gaika is a rarity in South Africa, indeed in all of Africa, as an openly gay woman. And since her attack, which took place in 2009, she has become something of an icon in the battle against the South African phenomenon called "corrective rape." Virtually unknown to the rest of the world at the time of Gaika's ordeal, corrective rape has since become a hot issue. Through online campaigns, nearly a million people have joined local activists in demanding that the South African government recognize corrective rape as a hate crime. But with so few cases of homophobic violence resulting in trials — and of those, almost none ending in conviction — the activists have a long fight ahead of them.

(...)

Human-rights organizations estimate that over 40% of South African women will be raped in their lifetime and say that only 1 in 9 rapes are reported — which is to say that the average South African woman is more likely to be raped than complete secondary school. A survey by South Africa's Medical Research Council in June 2009 found that 1 in 4 South African men admitted to having "had sex with a woman when she didn't consent," and 46% of those said they had done so more than once.


http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2057744,00.html

...and this:

A teenager whipped to death in Bangladesh for having a relationship with a married man was allegedly raped by her cousin, it has emerged.

Four Islamic clerics were arrested this week for ordering Mosammet Hena, 14, to receive 100 lashes in a fatwa or religious edict at a village in the south-western Shariatpur district.

It has now been reported that the teenage girl was raped by her married cousin and then accused of having an affair with him.

The girl collapsed after she was lashed in public with a bamboo cane around 70 times on Monday, police chief Shahidur Rahman said.

She was taken to hospital, but died hours later.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353234/Bangladesh-girl-14-whipped-dead-affair-married-man-rape-cousin.html

Whether instances of applied gynophobia or simply the strong preying on the weak. Just to add some perspective.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Nordic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:38 pm

Well, if you want to go there, here are two more, just from today:

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/ar ... he_victim/

11-Year-Old Girl Horrifically Gang-Raped; New York Times Article Blames the Victim

and

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/09/a ... e-lawsuit/

American Apparel CEO held teen as sex slave: lawsuit


I mean, maybe we do need a few of these in this thread just to remind Stephen Morgan that it's not always so safe to be a female as he seems to think it is.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:05 pm

The New York Times' Rape-Friendly Reporting
— By Mac McClelland| Wed Mar. 9, 2011 11:25 AM PST
From today's New York Times:

The police investigation began shortly after Thanksgiving, when an elementary school student alerted a teacher to a lurid cellphone video that included one of her classmates.

The video led the police to an abandoned trailer, more evidence and, eventually, to a roundup over the last month of 18 young men and teenage boys on charges of participating in the gang rape of an 11-year-old girl in the abandoned trailer home, the authorities said.

This story from Cleveland, Texas, is beyond horrifying. Obviously. Unfortunately, further injustices have now been heaped on the victim (and the movement to end rape culture) by the article's writer and editor.

"Gang Rape of Schoolgirl, and Arrests, Shake Texas Town," the Times article covering the atrocities, is a collection of one perpetrator-excusing, victim-blaming insult after another. It starts right after the lede and some further information about the suspects, who include middle schoolers and a 27-year-old. Then:

The case has rocked this East Texas community to its core and left many residents in the working-class neighborhood where the attack took place with unanswered questions. Among them is, if the allegations are proved, how could their young men have been drawn into such an act? [Italics mine.]

Hmm. My editors let me get away with passive voice, too, but in this case it seems inappropriate, as does the peculiar verb choice, which gives the suspects a little bit of a pass. If the allegations are proved, then the young men of Cleveland, Texas, committed these dreadful acts. However, by the story's semantics, they didn't allegedly do anything. They were coerced into it by some unnamed influence or entity.

But okay, maybe how 18 young men were allegedly drawn into gang-raping a child is truly the question on Clevelanders' minds. The article was written by a reporter, not a pundit, so perhaps it can't be helped that some of the reported content is wildly insensitive. For example:

"It's just destroyed our community," said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. "These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives."

You can't blame a reporter for reporting uncomfortable facts, like this evidence of a culture that places more responsibility on victims and has more sympathy for rapists. You can blame a reporter, though, for not using the tools available to him to provide a basic balance of information and opinions. A transition like this could follow that last quote: "But others have different concerns, like…" Now insert a quote from a person wondering what it's going to be like for the victim to have nightmares, post-traumatic stress, depression, possibly crippling intimacy issues for a very long time. Instead, the only other people quoted are saying things like this:

Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands—known as the Quarters—said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said.

"Where was her mother? What was her mother thinking?" said Ms. Harrison, one of a handful of neighbors who would speak on the record. "How can you have an 11-year-old child missing down in the Quarters?"

This is the point at which, as the writer's editor, I would send him an email. "Dear James," it would say. "Thanks for getting in this in! I have some concerns that we've only got quotes from people who are worried about the suspects ('The arrests have left many wondering who will be taken into custody next') and think the girl was asking for it, especially since, even if she actually begged for it, the fact that she is 11 makes the incident stupendously reprehensible (not to mention still illegal). We don't want anyone wrongly thinking you are being lazy or thoughtless or misogynist! Please advise if literally no other kinds of quotes are available because every single person who lives in Cleveland, Texas, is a monster."

It seems such a message never happened, because the story ends with the school district spokeswoman, whose primary concerns appear to be as screwed up as the rest of the community's.

The students who were arrested have not returned to school, and it is unclear if they ever will. Ms. Gatlin said the girl had been transferred to another district. "It's devastating, and it’s really tearing our community apart," she said. "I really wish that this could end in a better light."

You know what I really wish? After wishing that this had never happened, and didn't happen all the time? That major media organizations would stop sneakily, if unintentionally, promoting rape-friendliness. It doesn't help the cause of keeping our youth from getting drawn into such acts.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby DevilYouKnow » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:10 pm

Wow, that NYT article is despicable.

Residents in the neighborhood where the abandoned trailer stands — known as the Quarters — said the victim had been visiting various friends there for months. They said she dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s. She would hang out with teenage boys at a playground, some said.

So fucking what??

“It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”

Poor "boys" up to age 27.

But I guess they deserve praise for providing such a timely example for inclusion in this thread.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:22 pm

and these from a couple of weeks ago in Canada:

Convicted rapist avoids jail because 'sex was in the air'


BY MIKE MCINTYRE, WINNIPEG FREE PRESS FEBRUARY 24, 2011


A convicted rapist will not go to jail because a Manitoba judge says the victim sent signals that "sex was in the air" through her suggestive attire and promiscuous conduct on the night of the attack.

Kenneth Rhodes was given a two-year conditional sentence last week which allows him to remain free in the community in a decision likely to trigger strong debate.

The Crown wanted at least three years behind bars.

Queen's Bench Justice Robert Dewar called Rhodes a "clumsy Don Juan" who may have misunderstood what the victim wanted when he forced intercourse along a darkened highway outside Thompson, Man., in 2006.

Rhodes and a friend met the 26-year-old woman and her girlfriend earlier that night outside of a bar under what the judge called "inviting circumstances."

Dewar specifically noted the women were wearing tube tops with no bra, high heels and plenty of makeup.

"They made their intentions publicly known that they wanted to party," said Dewar. He said the women spoke of going swimming in a nearby lake that night "notwithstanding the fact neither of them had a bathing suit."

The foursome left the parking lot and headed into the woods, court was told. Rhodes began making sexual advances toward the victim, who initially rejected him but later returned his kisses.

Rhodes then forced himself upon the woman once they were alone.

Rhodes pleaded not guilty at the trial on the basis he thought the woman had consented. Dewar rejected his defence -but said aspects of it can now be considered on sentencing.

"This is a different case than one where there is no perceived invitation," said Dewar. "This is a case of misunderstood signals and inconsiderate behaviour."

Rhodes will be under a 24-hour curfew for the first year of his conditional sentence, with exceptions to allow him to work and attend to medical appointments. His name will also be placed on the national sex-offender registry.

Rhodes was also ordered by the judge to write a letter of apology to his victim.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Convic ... z1G8yWb0G5


Toronto officer apologizes over 'slut' comment at York University

Toronto police officer Constable Michael Sanguinetti issued a letter of apology to York University Osgoode Hall Law School's staff and students over comments he made about women dressing up like "sluts."

During a sexual assault seminar at Toronto’s York University, Constable Michael Sanguinetti told students that women could avoid being sexual assaulted if they would stop dressing like “sluts."

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” said Sanguinetti. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

Following his remarks, Sanguinetti wrote a letter of apology to the school and said that he is “embarrassed” by his comments, which were “poorly thought out and did not reflect the commitment of the Toronto Police Services to victims of sexual assaults.”

He added that he realizes that sexual assaults, and similar crimes, can have a “traumatizing effect” on both the victims and their families. “My comment was hurtful in this respect.”

Sanguinetti was out on patrol on Thursday evening, but was unavailable for comment. The Toronto Sun reports that the officer has been disciplined, but it is unknown what sort of punishment he will receive.

Constable Wendy Drummond said the comments were made on Jan. 24 and the police immediately looked into the professional standards unit. “The comments are not something that is condoned by the (Toronto Police) service and we treat the allegations very seriously.”

Toronto Police Services spokesperson Meaghan Ray says that they do not provide should-nots to avoid sexual assault, but rather provide a detailed list of the time and place of sexual assaults so women can adjust their behaviour.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Toronto officer apologizes over 'slut' comment at York University - Toronto Headlines | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/headlines-in-to ... z1G8zPG98n
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:28 am

Manning Up: Kay Hymowitz
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... -hymowitz/

Writer Kay Hymonitz will explain why she thinks the rise of powerful women has given men a license to be boys.
...

This is a scene from the movie Knocked Up. In it, the lead character -- played by Seth Rogen -- is a fun-loving, hard-partying guy who refuses to think about the future ... right up until he has a one-night-stand and gets a woman pregnant.

A lot of people found the movie pretty funny. Kay Hymowitz, though, found it speaks volumes about a trend she sees as being more disturbing than amusing.

This morning, as part of our project Shift we are looking at what Kay Hymowitz views as a new demographic. She is the author of a new book called Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys. She's also a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. Kay Hymowitz was in New York City.

Dangerous Demographic
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... mographic/

Male Canadians aged 15 to 25 live in dangerous times. Accidents are the leading cause of death. Suicide and homicide run second and third. We have a portrait of a very dangerous demographic.
...

Coming of age stories featuring teenaged boys fumbling their way into adulthood are fixtures in our popular culture... The Catcher In the Rye ... The Outsiders ... Rebel Without A Cause. Stories with one common thread: danger. Protagonists doing risky things... be it drinking vodka all day long... or racing cars.

And it looks as if art is imitating life: the statistics prove it. Among Canadian boys and young men, aged 15 to 25... accidents are by far the leading cause of death. Suicide and homicide are right behind in second and third place. On top of that, Canadian men are three times more likely to commit suicide than Canadian women. And more than 90 per cent of the people who die in workplace injuries in Canada are men.

This morning, as part of our project on demographic change ... Shift, we're asking why this is such a dangerous demographic. And for their help, we're joined by two young men. Michael Champagne is 23. He's the founder of a group called Aboriginal Youth Opportunities. It helps young people with everything from leaving gangs to learning how to apply for welfare. He was in Winnipeg. And Cory Biagi is a 26 year-old mountain climber and back-country skier. He was in Vancouver. David Hatfield is the Canadian Coordinator of International Men's Day. He was also in Vancouver. And Daniel Kruger is a researcher at the School of Public Health and the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:40 am

Plutonia wrote:
Dangerous Demographic
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/20 ... mographic/
...

Coming of age stories featuring teenaged boys fumbling their way into adulthood are fixtures in our popular culture... The Catcher In the Rye ... The Outsiders ... Rebel Without A Cause. Stories with one common thread: danger. Protagonists doing risky things... be it drinking vodka all day long... or racing cars.

And it looks as if art is imitating life: the statistics prove it.


Note to CBC: it's 2011. Hopefully the stats they used are more recent!
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Luposapien » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:51 pm

So... While perhaps belonging more properly in the "Apologies" thread in the Lounge, since this thread started up, I've been working up the guts to say I'm sorry, to Crikkett in particular, and the women (and men) in general, who may have been hurt or offended by some posts I made a couple years back in this thread:

Easy come, easy go

I won't drag it all into this space, but anyone wishing to see me make a bit of an ass of myself is welcome to check it out.

Suffice it to say that I can have difficulty seeing past the end of my own nose at times, and I'm afraid in my rush to make a pithy, and rather over-generalized, statement, I failed to fully examine exactly what I was saying. It left a bad taste in my mouth, but I'm afraid I didn't have the fortitude at the time to admit why that was the case: that, as much as I hate to admit it, and as much as I try to overcome them, I've got blind spots aplenty. Perhaps it doesn't mean much coming so late, but, again, I apologize.

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