Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:09 pm

Thanks to all.

Dear brekin, how do I embed a video?

https://youtu.be/ndixD2tKnlA
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:27 pm

lunarmoth wrote:Thanks to all.

Dear brekin, how do I embed a video?

https://youtu.be/ndixD2tKnlA


You take out this bit from the url:
ndixD2tKnlA
Highlight it and then click on the little youtube button in the editor.



I won't even ask what that video has to with this thread either, because who am I to wonder why?
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:33 pm

Image
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:17 pm

"UNCONDITIONAL LOVE," you babies!

Coming off from trading accusations re: artists who worked for the CIA (versus artists who didn't?) in the Cold War era when the CIA was expanding worldwide and taking over cultural organizations, magazines, conferences, music, abstract painting and on and on to advance its political agenda - which included bloody coups and mass-murder and brutal torture not to mention torture conditioning of children some of whom were groomed to be the mind controlled journalists, writers, artists and pop stars of today..

It was a vast enterprise that's still ongoing as this woman https:// explains: . (Well if you click.on it you'll see it's a woman)

So, trading blame and accusations and demanding "proof" that some high profile singer is "guilty" seems like a waste of our breath when on closer (or broader);inspection, everyone working in culture had to pass through the CIA gate (or in Canada, get approval from British intelligence). That was the first step to getting chosen, after which they had to prove they were committed, versatile and obedient enough to get the jobs. Clearly, cultural ambassadors perform missions, bring back information, build networks, bring people together at events -- and all of that is potentially useful if the overall aim is herding people into patterns of behavior, belief, compliance with accepted ideology.

Also these great figures of pop or high culture set an example, showing others what they should and shouldn't do in order to make it.

That's why they're promoted in the first place - because they can hear their master's voice -- remember that blatant ad for RCA?

That's why you'll never hear Bob or Leonard speaking out against, say, wars or exploitation or child trafficking - because if they did they would not exist anymore on our radar. It's not just that they collaborate - its bred into them and then programmed. It's so much who they are, how can you blame them for it?.Blame, innocence, guilt barely come into the picture -

It's the system we have to understand. Then everything in it makes perfect sense. It's the creepy system we grew up in and are living under. And when it comes to recruiting and developing and promoting agents, no coercion is needed, just incentives.

However I think later on, the stakes get ratcheted up, and an ageing "star" who has been around and knows too much, or gets too confident of him or herself, has to be introduced to punishment. Punishment entails making impossible choices and carrying out worse kinds of missions, after which blackmail is added to the control instruments. At some point, there is probably zero choice, and very little left of the original personality who was capable of choosing.

You can get into the Mafia but you can't leave. And fame is like that too, for all sorts of reasons including how it's manufactured.
Last edited by lunarmoth on Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:09 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:45 pm

99 dreams i have had,
Every one a lead balloon

:wallhead:



Guruilla:
The French have a saying: "Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner." (Blaise Pascal). It's one of those statements that define a culture (sort of), like "Waste not, want not" or "Mind your own business" or "You can't always get what you want."

It's not that the French are permissive - it's just that (like you) they seem to place a higher emphasis on listening and thinking deeply before they judge others.

I think that's why this thread is fine as long as it doesn't turn into a blame-fest and then, of course, a long spasm of censorship and denial. Let's keep our spasms flowing on toward forgiveness and understanding. None of us is perfect here, either
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Sounder » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:37 am

So, trading blame and accusations and demanding "proof" that some high profile singer is "guilty" seems like a waste of our breath when on closer (or broader);inspection, everyone working in culture had to pass through the CIA gate (or in Canada, get approval from British intelligence). That was the first step to getting chosen, after which they had to prove they were committed, versatile and obedient enough to get the jobs. Clearly, cultural ambassadors perform missions, bring back information, build networks, bring people together at events -- and all of that is potentially useful if the overall aim is herding people into patterns of behavior, belief, compliance with accepted ideology.

Also these great figures of pop or high culture set an example, showing others what they should and shouldn't do in order to make it.

That's why they're promoted in the first place - because they can hear their master's voice -- remember that blatant ad for RCA?


This is how I see it, we are swimming in it. Still wanna be a pop star?

guruilla wrote...
I think there's got to be a thick and blurry gray area between active harassment by design, and people being triggered by their own unconscious "stuff" and trying to shut down the conversation, whether it's about MKULTRA folk singers or transgender or whatever. Just as there's a pretty gray blurry area between a survivor of mind control-based sexual abuse, per se, and survivors of, you know, just being born on this planet.



This was written a few days ago and I wasn't going to post it, but, here it is anyway. I'm not sure what thread it came from.


I'm in scan mode now, but still love some of the stuff that jumps out.

This may strike some as OT but these 'threads' are as often about us as they are about the subject anyway.

What is an 'operative'? The word implies that one is working to achieve objectives of forces greater than oneself.

But don't we all craft our self identities around relationships with various aspects of our larger context? We find security packaged in ideological frameworks that devalue ideas in order to overvalue various forms of social conformity. We lose our authentic self in trying to find our ‘authentic’ selves.

We are all injured and some compensate honorably, but most of us also effectively abuse others if that is felt to be needed in order to protect ones self-identity.

The split model of reality provides a poor method for understanding the causal chains responsible for actual reality given that our perceived reality is so pervaded by social Darwinist and materialist gospel.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:39 pm

Sounder » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:37 am wrote:
What is an 'operative'? The word implies that one is working to achieve objectives of forces greater than oneself.

Makes me think of the book Operators & Things (PDF).
“Operators move about in the flesh. So far as surface appearance is concerned,
Operators are identical with Things. No Thing would be able to distinguish one from the other, but
Operators can distinguish them easily. An Operator need only extend and contact the individual’s
mind and he knows instantly whether he’s tuned in on an Operator or a Thing.”

“The one great difference between an Operator and a Thing is the
construction and ability of the mind. Operators are born with special brain cells known as the
battlement. With these cells, an Operator can extend and probe into the mind of a Thing. He can tap
the Thing’s mind and discover what is going on there, and even feed thoughts to the Thing’s mind
in order to motivate it. The mental difference is one of ability, not one of quality. Operators, like
Things, may be stupid or intelligent. But that one difference permits the Operators to rule the
Things.”


Sounder wrote:But don't we all craft our self identities around relationships with various aspects of our larger context? We find security packaged in ideological frameworks that devalue ideas in order to overvalue various forms of social conformity. We lose our authentic self in trying to find our ‘authentic’ selves.

We are all injured and some compensate honorably, but most of us also effectively abuse others if that is felt to be needed in order to protect ones self-identity.

Every Thing struggles to become an Operator? The Violent Identity Quest to be a Somebody.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Cordelia » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:47 pm

Lunarmoth wrote:

"It's so much who they are, how can you blame them for it?.Blame, innocence, guilt barely come into the picture -

It's the system we have to understand. Then everything in it makes perfect sense. It's the creepy system we grew up in and are living under. And when it comes to recruiting and developing and promoting agents, no coercion is needed, just incentives."

That.

(When I read several years ago that Leonard Cohen's most trusted colleague had ripped him off, thereby forcing him out of his Zen-retirement, I was sold. Bought the story--great marketing strategy really--bought the documentary 'I'm Your Man'. Wasn't too keen on the new Cohen, dressed up as an old gangster, looking a bit like Meyer Lansky, but good fashion marketing tool for aging fans. The 'stars', like the rest of us, aren't in control of their own destinies either-pathetic, really.)
The greatest sin is to be unconscious. ~ Carl Jung

We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content. ~ Dag Hammarskjold 'Waymarks'
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:18 pm

Cordelia » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:47 pm wrote:the new Cohen, dressed up as an old gangster, looking a bit like Meyer Lansky, but good fashion marketing tool for aging fans. The 'stars', like the rest of us, aren't in control of their own destinies either-pathetic, really.)

Like modern-day gladiators? Appealing to the public (as Sinead did) isn't much of a way out of the Colosseum. They want to see blood as much as Empire does.
It is a lot easier to fool people than show them how they have been fooled.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Sounder » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:59 pm

"Operative', to my mind, denotes the low man on the pole, while the 'operator' works the other end.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby brekin » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:40 pm

Sometimes things can get a little too meta-meta and definitions wee too pliable. I assume when we talk about operative, we mean someone working for an intelligence agency (knowingly or unknowingly) or exploited by one to clandestinely assist in carrying out intelligence operations. Or even a large or well financed private intelligence-like agency.

Everyone wants to rule the world and be famous, but not everyone has the backing of a clandestine agency (or agencies or their hired hands) who can actively work to cause and orchestrate large governmental/cultural changes and uses them in service to this. Which isn't to say such intelligence agencies don't get sloppy, go off mission and sometimes have poorly defined operations. But I think most people do have the potential tendency, of their own accord, to create a structure that could resemble a secretive, controlling, cult-like organization given enough money, power and fame. Sometimes they just have to hire their family, really.

Phil Spector, for example, is a guy who I wouldn't be surprised had intelligence connections, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if the cruelty, control, threats of violence and high weirdness he inflicted on family, co-workers and victims wasn't just the result of the usual darker sides of the human spectrum being allowed free rein with increasingly leveling up of money, fame and power.

Sometimes people are secret agents, and sometimes people are just obvious assholes.

Image

I only wish my words, could just convince myself, that it just wasn't real.
But that's not the way it feels, Operator


If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby lunarmoth » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:43 pm

guruilla » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:39 pm wrote:
Sounder » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:37 am wrote:
What is an 'operative'? The word implies that one is working to achieve objectives of forces greater than oneself.

Makes me think of the book Operators & Things (PDF).
“Operators move about in the flesh. So far as surface appearance is concerned,
Operators are identical with Things. No Thing would be able to distinguish one from the other, but
Operators can distinguish them easily. An Operator need only extend and contact the individual’s
mind and he knows instantly whether he’s tuned in on an Operator or a Thing.”

“The one great difference between an Operator and a Thing is the
construction and ability of the mind. Operators are born with special brain cells known as the
battlement. With these cells, an Operator can extend and probe into the mind of a Thing. He can tap
the Thing’s mind and discover what is going on there, and even feed thoughts to the Thing’s mind
in order to motivate it. The mental difference is one of ability, not one of quality. Operators, like
Things, may be stupid or intelligent. But that one difference permits the Operators to rule the
Things.”


Sounder wrote:1But don't we all craft our self identities around relationships with various aspects of our larger context? We find security packaged in ideological frameworks that devalue ideas in order to overvalue various forms of social conformity. We lose our authentic self in trying to find our ‘authentic’ selves.

We are all injured and some compensate honorably, but most of us also effectively abuse others if that is felt to be needed in order to protect ones self-identity.

Every Thing struggles to become an Operator? The Violent Identity Quest to be a Somebody.




@guruilla
I downloaded Barbara O'Brien's book. Read the slick introduction by a psychiatrist, and a couple of chapters by O'Brien. First impression: this is MKULTRA-related. The year (1958) is a strong indication. The confident, patronizing tone of the psychiatrist-expert in introducing us to the strange world of the patient, who hears voices and has multiple 'Operators' who appear to be imaginary - also typical of the times and prevailing ideology of these CIA doctors. There is much violence and dissociation and the style is obsessively detailed and claustrophobic. She is threatened early on with electro shock, but saved by her doctor and encouraged or permitted to tell her story i.e. offered psychoanalysis as a way out of ECT torture. She describes strange but plausibly brutal workplace politics, being hospitalized for an apparent heart attack and then shipped to a psych ward, drugged or threatened with powerful sedatives and talking her way out of it. That's where I quit. It's not an entertaining read and I suspect she wrote it to demonstrate her willingness to record everything in a journal for her doctors who are studying the effects of their drugs and other aggressive therapies on this "patient" who is likely a casualty of one their experiments

Something I learned when researching MKUlTRA: schizophrenia was not being "cured" but created in unwitting subjects, and studied with a view to how it could be used as a weapon.

This woman does not strike me as living in a mysterious alternate reality known as "Schizophrenia". She strikes me as a programmed dissociative personality struggling to deal with her programmers. She clearly believes that if she is clever, compliant, and diligent enough she can succeed or at least escape the maze of abuse she initially perhaps agreed to. Or she may have entered it as a child. It may be all she knows.

The subjects in these experiments are treated like Things. That's the very real dichotomy involved being a human lab rat in a trauma experiment. The only escape is through dissociation and splitting.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby Nordic » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:01 am

You can get into the Mafia but you can't leave. And fame is like that too, for all sorts of reasons including how it's manufactured


Hotel California.

And in the master's chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby guruilla » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:03 am

lunarmoth wrote:First impression: this is MKULTRA-related.

That hadn't occurred to me, funnily enough. The at least partial reality of her experiences seemed inescapable, however. Perhaps the book is mapping the overlap between human-handling, CIA-style, and entity perception/possession?

Whatever the entities "are" ~ possibly psychic fragments, externalized alters...

I didn't read it all either.
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Re: Leonard Cohen, Operative? (Ann Diamond material)

Postby identity » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:14 am

offered psychoanalysis as a way out of ECT torture


One double bind I'm glad I've never been confronted with...
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
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