The 2012 "Election" thread

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby bks » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:32 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Did I say yet anywhere on these threads that I was going to vote for Obama?

I wrote:
I don't know. Who reads 25 pages of a thread? But something tells me Fresno and Nordic would have objected less strenuously to an expressed intention to vote for Jill Stein (though wtf do I know?)

“… we live in an interlocking world, in which no sphere and no area is insulated… [we] must choose our priorities, and do it on the basis of inadequate evidence. To disregard consequences in the name of purity of principle can itself often be a kind of indulgence and evasion.”
Ernest Gellner, 1990



Did I say not voting was based on purity of principle? Seems to me, Mr. Gellner, that under the conditions I just laid out, voting, if it is done in New York, for Obama, in full knowledge of who he is, is likelier to be an act performed on the basis of purity of principle than is not voting.

Not voting for either of the duopoly's men when casting in New York helps maintain coherence of belief and action in a time when that's not all that easy to do. That has its merits as well, wouldn't you say?

And try answering your phone :)
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:41 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Did I say yet anywhere on these threads that I was going to vote for Obama?

“… we live in an interlocking world, in which no sphere and no area is insulated… [we] must choose our priorities, and do it on the basis of inadequate evidence. To disregard consequences in the name of purity of principle can itself often be a kind of indulgence and evasion.”
Ernest Gellner, 1990


It's not purity, it's fucking self preservation.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:27 am

Fresno_Layshaft wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:Did I say yet anywhere on these threads that I was going to vote for Obama?


So, for the sake of clarity, you're not voting for Obama?


I know that no one asked me that. But fwiw, I (a) haven't done it yet; (b) don't plan on starting any time soon; and (c) strangely enough, do not feel that sunny is therefore permanently responsible for four more years of dead babies in Pakistan than I am.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:12 am

My vote for Obama is in no way an endorsement of his policies.

It will be cast to prevent Romney from enacting his.

So let's stop with the moralizing; everyone will do as they feel they should for whatever their reasons.

We talk about how mysteriously and utterly fixed the game is and that there is nothing at all we can do to alter the future. Should Obama be re-elected our military-industrial complex will not vanish but if Romney's elected he'll nourish and grow the heartless bloody beast. In your name. With your taxes.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:01 am

Willow: You're right to do as you do, and I have no problems with it.

It's clear that both options will preserve the ecology of the MIC-intel-deep state complex, I happen to believe that one will grow it more dramatically than the other. No way to tell, since you can't run both scenarios to compare. Also, someone with your experience has the right to consider it irrelevant to your own choices.

Fresno, to your question, see here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33931&start=375

Have I "savagely berated" you? I don't recall doing so. I've said (and meant) mean things to some people, in response to mean things I've read from them that I thought were unreasonable. I'd find it hard to be mean to someone with your avatar. Strange, isn't it?

bks, I never fail to take your calls if I see them. Let's do it again today!

PS, all: Sorry about that quote. Ran into it while reading something and threw it in here, though it's too general to say anything, isn't it?

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:57 pm

I'm aware that Paul Craig Roberts isn't a favorite in these parts, but he sure makes a lot of valid points in this essay.

In America There will Never be a Real Debate
Voting for Obliteration
by PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
October 25, 2012

God help them if Obama and Romney ever had to participate in a real debate about a real issue at the Oxford Union. They would be massacred.

The “debates” revealed that not only the candidates but also the entire country is completely tuned out to every real problem and dangerous development. For example, you would never know that US citizens can now be imprisoned and executed without due process. All that is required to terminate the liberty and life of an American citizen by his own government is an unaccountable decision somewhere in the executive branch.

No doubt that Americans, if they think of this at all, believe that it will only happen to terrorists who deserve it. But as no evidence or due process is required, how would we know that it only happens to terrorists? Can we really trust a government that has started wars in 7 countries on the basis of falsehoods? If the US government will lie about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in order to invade a country, why won’t it lie about who is a terrorist?

America needs a debate about how we can be made more safe by removing the Constitutional protection of due process. If the power of government is not limited by the Constitution, are we ruled by Caesar? The Founding Fathers did not think we could trust a caesar with our safety? What has changed that we can now trust a caesar?

If we are under such a terrorist threat that the Constitution has to be suspended or replaced by unaccountable executive action, how come all the alleged terrorist cases are sting operations organized by the FBI? In eleven years there has not been a single case in which the “terrorist” had the initiative!

In the eleven years since 9/11, acts of domestic terrorism have been miniscule if they even exist. What justifies the enormous and expensive Department of Homeland Security? Why does Homeland Security have military-equipped Special Response Teams with armored vehicles? http://www.dhs.gov/photo/hsi-using-armo ... aining-ice Who are the targets of these militarized units? If eleven years of US government murder, maiming, and displacement of millions of Muslims hasn’t provoked massive acts of domestic terrorism, why is Homeland Security creating a domestic armed force of its own? Why are there no congressional hearings and no public discussion? How can a government whose budget is deep in the red afford a second military force with no defined and Constitutionally legal purpose?

What is Homeland Security’s motivation in creating a Homeland Youth? Is the new FEMA Corps a disguise for a more sinister purpose, a Hitler Youth as Internet sites suggest? https://www.dhs.gov/blog/2012/09/14/wel ... ural-class Are the massive ammunition purchases by Homeland Security related to the raising of a nationwide corps of 18-24 year-olds? How can so much be going on in front of our eyes with no questions asked?

Why did not Romney ask Obama why he is working to overturn the federal court’s ruling that US citizens cannot be subject to indefinite detention in violation of the US Constitution? Is it because Romney and his neoconservative advisers agree with Obama and his advisers? If so, then why is one tyrant better than another?

Why has the US constructed a network of detainment camps, for which it is hiring “internment specialists“?

Why does the US Army now have a policy for “establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations”?

Here is Rachel Maddow’s report on how Obama criticizes the neoconservative Bush/Cheney regime for violations of the US Constitution and US statutory law and then proposes the same thing himself.

How did the presidential debates avoid the fact of Predator Drones flying over us here in the domestic United States of America? What is the purpose of this? Why are the smallest police forces in the most remote of locations being equipped with armored cars? I have seen them. In small lilly-white communities north of Atlanta, Georgia, communities of sub-million dollar MacMansions have militarized police with armored cars and automatic weapons. SWAT teams in full military gear are everywhere. What is it all about? These small semi-rural areas will never see a terrorist or experience a hostage situation. Yet, they are all armed to the teeth. They are so heavily armed that they could be sent into combat against the Third Reich or the Red Army.

Any such questions run afoul of the assumption of America’s moral perfection. No such debate will ever happen. But if “it is the economy, stupid,” why is there no economic debate?

Last month the Federal Reserve announced QE3. If QE1 and QE2 did not work, why does anyone, including the Federal Reserve chairman, think that QE3 will work?

Yet, the utterly irrational financial markets, which haven’t a clue about anything, were overjoyed at QE3. This can only be because what rules the equity market is propaganda, spin, and disinformation, not facts. The vaunted stock market is incapable of making any correct decision. The decisions are made by the fools in the market operating on a short-run basis. The only safe path to take is to run with the lemmings. This strategy insures that a portfolio manager is always in the middle of his peers and, therefore, he doesn’t lose clients.

How wonderful it would have been for Obama and Romney to have confronted in a real debate how QE3, designed to help insolvent “banks too big to fail,” can help households operating, with two earners, on real incomes of 45 years ago, which is where the current real median household income stands.

How does saving a bank, designated as “too big to fail,” help the family whose jobs or main job has been exported to China or India in order to maximize corporate profits, executive performance bonuses and shareholders’ capital gains?

Obviously the working population of the US has been sacrificed to the profits of the mega-rich.

An appropriate debate question is: Why has the livelihood of working Americans been sacrificed to the profits of the mega-rich?

No such question will ever be asked in a “presidential debate.”

In the 21st century, US citizens became nonentities. They are brutalized by the police whose incomes their taxes pay. They, for protesting some injustice or for no cause at all, are beaten, arrested, tasered and even murdered. The police, paid by the public, beat up paralyzed people in wheel chairs, frame those who call them for help against criminals, taser grandmothers and small children, and shoot down in cold blood unarmed citizens who have done nothing except lose control of themselves, either through alcohol, drugs, or rage.

Brainwashed Americans pay large taxes at every level of government for protection against gratuitous violence, but what their taxes support is gratuitous violence against themselves. Every American, except for the small number of mega-rich who control Washington, can be arrested and dispossessed, both liberty and property, on the basis of nothing but an allegation of a member of the executive branch who might want the accused’s wife, girlfriend, property, or to settle a score, or to exterminate a rival, or to score against a high school, college, or business rival.

In America today, law serves the powerful, not justice. In effect, there is no law, and there is no justice. Only unaccountable power.

What is the point of a vote when the outcome is the same? Both candidates represent the interests of Israel, not the interests of the US. Both candidates represent the interests of the military/security complex, agribusiness, the offshoring corporations, the suppression of unions and workers, the total demise of civil liberty and the US Constitution, which is in the way of unbridled executive power .

In the US today, the power of money rules. Nothing else is in the equation. Why vote to lend your support to the continuation of your own exploitation? Every time Americans vote it is a vote for their own obliteration.

Paul Craig Roberts is a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal. His latest book, Wirtschaft am Abgrund (Economies In Collapse) has just been published.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:43 pm

Noone is criticizing anyone for voting Obama. It's pretty much, you're held hostage and can only make one chess move. Either you make the one chess move and say at least you tried, or you did nothing. Either way you lose, but psychologically it's better to think they tried. There's this sinking feeling "they" really want to install Romney in some sneaky fashion, perhaps some created fiasco at the ballot in Ohio, who knows. As much as we all have issues with Obama and know he's just a tool put in by the same MIC who brought us Bush and Cheney as a brief lull...with Romney, well...noone can deny he presents a portal straight to the gates of hell.

I myself will be voting for Roseanne Barr partly out of tradition for voting third party(tho yes, I did vote Kerry back in 2004. Otherwise I usually vote third party) as somehow she will be on the California ballot.
But yeah, I don't know how it happened, but the GOP didnt become kinder and more moderate. Somehow the GOP dipped into batshit insane nasty world and sees no evidence of stopping
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:59 pm

Greg Palast yesterday talking about the sneaky new methods of election vote fraud and he expects massive vote fraud

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:03 pm

Does anybody here really believe that Obama has not been worse than Bush on the big issues that affect the entire planet, not just Americans? He has. And it's an embarrassing reality that his base (liberals/progressives) has failed miserably at even the most basic level of eternal vigilance. Emphasis mine below.

Against Complicity
The Moral Case for Silence
by NORMAN POLLACK
October 25, 2012

Herman Melville’s story, “Bartleby, the Scrivener,” written 160-odd years ago, is now more relevant than ever. Bartleby faces out to a blank wall–the subtitle is, “A Story of Wall Street”–his highest assertion of self being:”I prefer not to.” Melville, perhaps America’s greatest writer, was making an important statement: meaningful choice has been circumscribed, even by the mid-19th century, in American society. Not only was the heroic turned against itself, but a pervasive condition of alienation defined the individual’s inner life and relations to others. One encountered reality through basic compromises of the ideal vision of a democratic polity, so that engagement became complicity in the renewal of one’s alienation. This, Melville resolutely opposed.

So, too, did Sherwood Anderson seventy years later. (By coincidence, today the New York Times focuses on Elyria, Ohio, his birthplace and the locale for Winesburg, which remains essentially unchanged.) Anderson also captures the loneliness and sadness of American life, which finds the individual enclosed within walls, so that one’s highest affirmation becomes to say “No” to the materialism that trades in false values and destroys the human soul. From Melville to Anderson to the present, America is still in the same condition, only now in more intensified form in that we no longer recognize alienation and willingly accept complicity in a life devoid of self-knowledge and the cooperative social bonds which alone confers dignity on human beings.

Making the moral case for silence as imperative in the coming election may seem difficult. Liberals and many but not all progressives regard the choice to be crystal-clear: Romney, the Republican party, and the Tea Partiers in its midst represent retrograde social forces affecting all sectors of American life. The indictment is merited. Romney seeks a return to the Dark Ages of American capitalism. Both regulation and the social safety net would be severely impaired, and individual privacy would be invaded by a heightened puritanical zeal. Hester Prynne would lurk in every shadow. As for foreign policy, bluntness would rule the waves. One suspects that the Pentagon would be given a blank check to wage perpetual war founded on the belief that America, a pristine land of freedom, is surrounded by enemies, domestic and foreign. From the liberals’ standpoint, what could possibly be worse?

I submit, perhaps Barack Obama could be worse. It is not that he fails to transcend the Dark Ages of American capitalism and its rapacious behaviors, but rather, that he has, in ways that speak to a sophisticated corporatism which already has created societal foundations detrimental to America’s root democratic professions of freedom and human rights (themselves relegated for the most part to the mythology of exceptionalism). Obama, more than his predecessors, is the quintessential spokesperson for a mature capitalism in which government, as custodian of the public interest, is under assault from the forces of privatization, now gathering as a tidal wave which he is blithely surfing. The leader of government presides over its transformation into an annex of Wall Street. Really, a transmogrification, both of government and society, knit together in callous disregard for both economic and ethical constraints on greed, extremes in the distribution of wealth, and the widespread privation created by a political economy of market idolatry and financial chicanery.

Alienation had been classically described as the pain and anguish experienced through feelings of estrangement from one’s society—but at least the pain was felt, and therefore could be contested even when the source was unclear. One was not reduced to apathy or passivity. In that meaning, alienation was akin to the recognition although somewhat blurred of exploitation, in which case the idea of resistance had not been removed from consciousness. Today under mature capitalism social structure and cultural institutions are directed to the obliteration of political consciousness. Resistence to the actuality of hunger, homelessness, unemployment, home foreclosures, accelerated inequality of income and wealth, vast military outlays, all of which speak volumes about the decay of a democratic order, is less than conditions warrant and almost nonexistent. This is alienation in its more modern phase: exploitation is very much present, its recognition conversely is at a low ebb. Obama dances over a spiritual void, characterized by the inertia of once progressive social forces, whether labor unions, civil liberties and civil rights groups, or the mobilization of the poor themselves, as in councils of the unemployed at the advent of the Great Depression.

This form of alienation is the more insidious because, not merely inhering in the massification and depersonalization of the social order as described by Kafka, it has been actively sought via the political system by the power structure to ensure dominance above and acquiescence below—the “below” here referring to working people en masse (fully three-fourths of society) and those dissidents of all stripes who may still have their wits about them. The behavior of upper groups, while base and cruel, is not groundless or irrational. To have millions out of work, many of whom are no longer defined even as included in the labor force because of long-term unemployment, others while barely holding on facing demoralization, ill health, and disintegration of family ties, and youth, without prospects, becoming a lost generation more poignantly depressed than their counterpart of the 1920s, all of these represent a potential tinder box for, if not social revolt, then, almost equally to be feared, destabilization of the market society and economy. The poor can only be hidden, ignored, or forgotten up to a point, when the phrase “middle class” as an inclusive social diagram loses its celebratory aura. For mature capitalism to achieve optimal functionality, i.e., the generation of sustained profits to a small, increasingly cohesive elite, or ruling group, requires strong—or at least presenting the illusion of strength—co-optative leadership capable of absorbing the negative energies it produces.

In this regard, Obama is the ideal personification of mature capitalism. He is not a front man, cipher, or puppet; instead, he identifies fully with the social order, its hierarchical structure, and its social purposes. He needed no urgings from others to betray practically every campaign promise he made in 2008. Today, he is hardly the alternative to Romney, his record reducing him to the same plane as his opponent. For ruling groups, his advantage lies in his facility for dressing retrograde policies in liberal rhetoric, and more, keeping intact an electoral base in the depths of false consciousness who cannot, in denial, see how their interests, including that of the black community itself, have been violated. Broadly, he and Romney are committed to the Washington Consensus, its faith in market efficiency, rationality, and justness, which provides the ideological cornerstone for deregulation of the economy and, relatedly, the subordination of government to, while servicing the needs of, business.

Even here, one can debate who has the better argument, Romney emphasizing a stronger manufacturing presence, Obama–signaling the new—looking toward the financialization of the total economy. Yet neither one’s position detracts from further wealth concentration and an hierarchical system of power. By deeming finance modern, the wave of the future in economic growth, Obama in practice devalues manufacturing as perhaps premodern (a distinction fueled by his rhetorical liberalism). This shift in proportions of the economic base, especially in the context of globalization, where industrialization becomes widespread, intentionally offers a structural vehicle for greater if riskier profitability through the financial sector. A New American Exceptionalism is informally declared, banking as the ascendant force in achieving national and global prosperity. The hitch of course is that this has led to some of the shadiest practices in the history of American capitalism: predatory lending, credit default swaps, derivatives trading, exotic instruments having utmost ingenuity, all carrying the message, risk analysis be damned, as full speed ahead to enormous profits.

As a result, much of the global financial community was brought to its knees, a disaster in the making for some time, but most acutely felt not by bankers and fund managers but those whose equity was destroyed in the housing debacle and the poor and the unemployed who faced reductions in social services and benefits. Social misery, however, did not run parallel with enlightenment. Obama’s supporters either forget or do not wish to be reminded that among his first appointments were Geithner and Summers, who represented a straight line projection—and for that reason were chosen–from the Clinton administration of the framework of deregulation. The essence of Clintonian economics, under Robert Rubin’s tutelage, deregulation, primarily through the repeal of Glass-Steagall, laid the basis for the financial crisis of 2007.

The absence of effective financial regulation, true to this day, as seen in the feckless operations of the SEC, is only one dimension of basic agreement between the candidates. Others include such diverse areas (yet forming a unitary perspective of conservatism if not reaction) as gun control, climate change, oil drilling, the inclusion of coal mining in the energy mix, and despite nuances, immigration policy, and, although Romney is mum on the subject, their common disregard for civil liberties, justified as necessary by the threat of terrorism. On the last-named, it would be difficult for Romney to exceed or match Obama’s record in erecting the state secrets doctrine as a first principle of governance, leading to the creation of the National Security State, use of the Espionage Act to discourage whistleblowers, widespread surveillance, the practice of rendition, assault on habeas corpus rights, and, not to be forgotten, approval of indefinite detention–a new outburst equal to the Palmer Raids and McCarthyism in undermining the Constitution.

Withal, Obama appears untouchable; his genius for manipulating the American public, or rather, his base, including the many in distress, is critical to his leadership role in advancing American financial and business interests. The base, resting in adulatory mode, refuses to recognize potential long-term trends that have now been set in motion, e.g., further deregulation or that which proves inefficacious (as witness FDA and Interior Department policies), privatization, and weakening of the social safety net. In symbolic terms, the drone may well define the Obama presidency. One does not know whether Romney would closet himself with his advisors and personally authorize targeted assassination. Hopefully not, given that this barbaric act is the antithesis of due process and rule of law—a leap into moral vacuity that he would find difficult to match or surpass.

Finally, in the foreign policy arena, Obama, Republican distortions of the record notwithstanding, has been anything but a dove (aka, weak, soft, red), and instead he has been a robust commander-in-chief who surrounds himself with a highly aggressive national security team asserting a geopolitical agenda entirely establishment-oriented and, hence, consistent with the main outlines of previous administrations. Obama is no patsy. He enlarged the mission of the CIA to include operations, enjoys cordial relations with the intelligence community, has awakened to the imperial possibilities of naval power, has, through assistance to the nuclear power industry, moved forward a new generation of nuclear weapons, assisted paramilitary groups in Columbia in conducting death-squad operations against labor organizers and peasants whose land stands in the way of mineral companies, all this in addition to the larger picture, what is quaintly termed the “re-positioning” of American interest and military forces. The Cold War is being refurbished with what appears to be a new enemy—China. Obama’s Pacific-first strategy can only signify its attempted encirclement, accompanied by the strengthening of alliance systems including reportedly the pressure on Japan to rearm and to embark on the development of nuclear weapons. And securing favorable trade-and-investment outlets globally, as in the past, has not been neglected.

Like I believe Bartleby would hold, affirming silence becomes necessary when, as in the coming election, but also, the wider historical path being pursued, one regards as morally debasing not only a lesser-of-two-evils argument but what stands behind it: willing complicity in the political and cultural mechanisms used to promote exploitation and inequality, societal conditions rooted in hierarchical relations of power having direct economic consequences for every member of society. Inequality is a cancer. Its spread depends on false consciousness, its treatment and cure on self-knowledge and resistance to policies and practices in the name of, but intended to deceive, the people and deprive them of their rights. My hope is slight, however just perhaps to say “No” strikes a responsive chord, makes for a collective response, becomes socially popular, the sky may not fall in, but false consciousness would be if not sloughed off at least seriously weakened. And, in turn, the structure of power, in its brutality affecting human dignity, would be exposed for all to see—and ultimately oppose. The chance to project an authentic alternative vision, one no longer beholden to wealth accumulation and its correlates social misery and division, is worth taking. These are not propitious times for democracy; first must come an awareness of that in order to rekindle the hope in its realization.

Norman Pollack is a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:31 pm

ninakat wrote:Does anybody here really believe that Obama has not been worse than Bush on the big issues that affect the entire planet, not just Americans? He has. And it's an embarrassing reality that his base (liberals/progressives) has failed miserably at even the most basic level of eternal vigilance.


I can't believe you'd even ask this question. Obama is the consolidation, legalization, and get-away for the Bush regime, which was the main show and 20+ years in the making. The present admin is also a relative return to normal of "mere" traditional multipolar imperialism, with all the murder that entails -- it just happens to be a lot less murder than what the Bush regime offered up, even if by drone rather than direct invasion. It's nuts not to see the difference and radically warmaking nature of the Bush regime, which launched multiple land invasions and sought unipolar military dominance in all regions. This on a board where pretty much everyone thinks 9/11 was an inside job executed by officials in the Bush regime. It's like you're asking for a new 9/11 and a new quantum leap for fascism. The Bush regime made all of the crimes you attribute to Obama possible and acceptable in the first place. Anyone who would have tried to expose them and put them away (which of course was a must) would have been an immediate target for assassination. Just who do you imagine could have possibly been elected after the Bush regime actively overthrew the constitution and international law? Things can be much, much worse, and basically you seem to be rooting for it.

And the embarrassment for failure in "eternal vigilance" lies with the whole country -- above all the right wingers who root for war and demand a warlike stance to the world, and who work to destroy anyone who is not 100% on their line -- the ones who declare Obama a weakling and a socialist, remember? They have the high ground in the ambient politics. Their sensibilities set the agenda and the ideological limits. They are the ones whose hold must be smashed first, if anything is ever to change in this system.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Project Willow » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:46 pm

Iamwhomiam wrote:So let's stop with the moralizing; everyone will do as they feel they should for whatever their reasons.


If advocating for the cessation of brutality is moralizing... oh, nevermind. People just don't care, it doesn't matter how bleeding heart you say you are, nobody gives a shit about any criminal state activity, unless it happens to their sister, and even then...

Iamwhomiam wrote:We talk about how mysteriously and utterly fixed the game is and that there is nothing at all we can do to alter the future. Should Obama be re-elected our military-industrial complex will not vanish but if Romney's elected he'll nourish and grow the heartless bloody beast. In your name. With your taxes.


That is just not an accurate picture of what is happening. There is no one who could have and has been more effective at growing the MIC than Obama, for the very simple reason that he is not opposed in his efforts. People are all bound up in their fears and illusions of the opposition and their delusions about who Obama really is. It's all perfectly on script, the one the ptb is using to turn us into a fully fascist state. As you've just announced, the illusion of Obama along with the reality of his right wing activity is supported by your vote. I agree with Mr. Ford, he is the more effective evil, and voting for him is a huge mistake.

http://blackagendareport.com/content/why-barack-obama-more-effective-evil
He is the More Effective Evil because Black Folks – historically, the most progressive cohort in the United States – and Liberals, and even lots of folks that call themselves Marxists, let him get away murder! Yet, people still insist on calling him a Lesser Evil, while he drives a stake through Due Process of Law.


http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/7/effective_evil_or_progressives_best_hope
So, you’re painting—this is the attempt of people who want to defend Obama from the left—you attempt to say that he’s a victim of all these Republican forces, but in fact he is the initiator, from within the Democratic Party, of these austerity measures. He is the initiator of preventive detention. Preventive detention, which is—savages the Bill of Rights, I think it basically abolishes the rule of law in this country. It was just a theory under Bush. It was a presidential opinion that inherent in the presidency was the right to detain, to lock up, and throw away the key forever, anybody, including U.S. citizens designated by the president. But that was just the president’s opinion. It fell to President Obama to nurture and guide through Congress a bill, actual legislation, that brings for the first time to the United States a preventive detention without trial. That is making history. That’s part of the Obama legacy. And that was not a Republican concoction, you see.

And that makes him the lesser of two evils, not because he is more evil than the Republicans even, certainly not than Hitler, as you tried to put on us. It’s because he can accomplish, because people like yourself insist, even though you acknowledge most of these crimes that I’ve elucidated have been committed under his watch, even though you acknowledge this, you continue to support him, and you make him a fait accompli, and you allow him to bring in more and more of the right-wing agenda, which then passes, in ways that the Republicans could never get it passed, just as George Bush could never complete his assault on Social Security. These Republicans couldn’t do it, either. They can’t—they can’t put the ax to Medicaid and Medicare. They don’t have the power. But, if President Obama puts his muscle behind the $4 trillion of cuts, then the deed is done. That makes him the more effective evil.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:46 pm

ninakat wrote:Does anybody here really believe that Obama has not been worse than Bush on the big issues that affect the entire planet, not just Americans? He has. And it's an embarrassing reality that his base (liberals/progressives) has failed miserably at even the most basic level of eternal vigilance.


By every measure that I can think of -- blood spilt and treasure seized here and abroad, basically -- he has not been worse than Bush. In some ways, he's been a continuance of Bush (and therefore, obviously, as bad). In others, he's been more or less a continuance of Clinton.

Don't mistake me. He's plenty bad. Intolerably bad. I don't say otherwise. But I'd really, really like to see the accounting that supports your conclusion. In what concrete terms has he been worse? More corrupt? More criminal? More greedy? More dishonest? More brutal? More violent? More....what?

I mean, Bush left large parts of the world (including this one) in ruins, in one way or another. Hard to top that.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:53 pm

JackRiddler wrote:Obama is the consolidation, legalization, and get-away for the Bush regime, which was the main show and 20+ years in the making.


But surely that's precisely the point, Jack. Why should anyone vote for a consolidation, legalization, and get-away for the Bush regime, least of all twice in a row? Because the only alternative is the Bush regime?

That's the way it always works, i.e., like magic, because it is magic:

Image

In 2012, the motto is "ABR". If Palin had been running instead of Romney, it'd be "ABP". In 2016, when Cthulhu is the Republican candidate, it'll be "ABC". Where will it all end? With a Z? And more to the point: When?

Even more to the point: How? As an American in NY you're of course much closer to the ground than I am as a Brit in Mitteleuropa, but I can't see that the American left has been in any way empowered by the emergence of the Obama regime. On the contrary. Admittedly, I hardly know any American leftists personally, except [racks brains] W in Chicago and C in Paris and you over there. I do know dozens of essentially apolitical but of course perfectly nice American liberals here in Old Europe who were first ecstatic and relieved (not least because they didn't have to pretend to be Canadians any more, ho ho), then patient, patient, patient..., then gradually vaguely discouraged, then defensively (ironically) jocular, then embarrassed by his bankster bailout, then touchily defensive about his "healthcare reforms", then at times furious at any mention of Obama's even more obvious shortcomings (especially his wars), and now again fearful that ̶C̶̶t̶̶h̶̶u̶̶l̶̶h̶̶u̶ Romney might get in, and therefore suddenly talkative (="politically active") again, because [cue drumroll]: Anybody But Romney.

To transpose this situation to a British milieu: If I had to choose between Thatcher and Blair, I would choose Blair, right? Wrong. I wouldn't, not any more. Because I wasn't born yesterday. I would in fact tell Blair to fuck right off. Not because my soul is too beautiful to endure voting for him, but because I would be stupid to vote for a repulsive manipulative mendacious sanctimonious capitalist bastard who pretends not only to have my best interests at heart (and those of my child, and those of the planet) but also to be the best of all possible worlds when he is merely the near-worst of this world and in fact my enemy.

Or I might mention the appalling Red-Green coalition in Germany. But that would go on forever and in any case it would just be more of the same. You get the point.

Sooner or later it has to stop, does it not? That is the question. And if not now, when? Serious question. It's not as if the world has all the time in the world.

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Last edited by MacCruiskeen on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby compared2what? » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:58 pm

Not sure it matters all that much, but fwiw, I've never actually thought that Obama really had much of a presidency to call his own in the first place.

I mean, look at his cabinet. It's not his. He's a figurehead. Bill and Hillary are the ones running the show, imo.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:34 pm

c2w wrote:I mean, look at his cabinet. It's not his. He's a figurehead. Bill and Hillary are the ones running the show, imo.


Why leave out George and Poppy? It's all one ̶b̶̶i̶̶g̶ small happy family.

Analysis: Obama keeps Bush nominees in top posts

For all the GOP howling about Barack Obama radically steering the government to the left and leading the nation toward socialism, some of his major appointments are Republican men and women of the middle [sic!!].

By TOM RAUM

Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON —

For all the GOP howling about Barack Obama radically steering the government to the left and leading the nation toward socialism, some of his major appointments are Republican men and women of the middle.

In what may be the top two national posts in light of today's crises at home and abroad, Obama stuck with the picks of former President George W. Bush in reappointing Fed chief Ben Bernanke and Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Bernanke last week was given another four-year term to preside over nothing less than saving the U.S. economy and then keeping it strong. He was appointed by Bush in 2006 after a short stint as chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisers. Gates was kept in his Pentagon post to wind down the war in Iraq and build up the one in Afghanistan. [...]

http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2 ... lysis.html


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