Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Username » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:49 am

~
The Irish Times - Saturday, June 5, 2010


What Is Not Allowed

RICHARD TILLINGHAST

POEM:
No tinned meat is allowed, no tomato paste,

no clothing, no shoes, no notebooks.

These will be stored in our warehouses at Kerem Shalom

until further notice.

Bananas, apples, and persimmons are allowed into Gaza,

peaches and dates, and now macaroni

(after the American Senator’s visit).

These are vital for daily sustenance.

But no apricots, no plums, no grapes, no avocados, no jam.

These are luxuries and are not allowed.

Paper for textbooks is not allowed.

The terrorists could use it to print seditious material.

And why do you need textbooks

now that your schools are rubble?

No steel is allowed, no building supplies, no plastic pipe.

These the terrorists could use to launch rockets

against us.

Pumpkins and carrots you may have,

but no delicacies,

no cherries, no pomegranates, no watermelon, no onions,

no chocolate.

We have a list of three dozen items that are allowed,

but we are not obliged to disclose its contents.

This is the decision arrived at

by Colonel Levi, Colonel Rosenzweig, and Colonel Segal.

Our motto:

‘No prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis.’

You may fish in the Mediterranean,

but only as far as three km from shore.

Beyond that and we open fire.

It is a great pity the waters are polluted –

twenty million gallons of raw sewage dumped into the sea every day

is the figure given.

Our rockets struck the sewage treatments plants,

and at this point spare parts to repair them are not allowed.

As long as Hamas threatens us,

no cement is allowed, no glass, no medical equipment.

We are watching you from our pilotless drones

as you cook your sparse meals over open fires

and bed down

in the ruins of houses destroyed by tank shells.

And if your children can’t sleep,

missing the ones who were killed in our incursion,

or cry out in the night, or wet their beds

in your makeshift refugee tents,

or scream, feeling pain in their amputated limbs –

that’s the price you pay for harbouring terrorists.

God gave us this land.

A land without a people for a people without a land.

Richard Tillinghast is an American poet who lives in Co Tipperary. He is the author of eight books of poetry, the latest of which is Selected Poems (Dedalus Press, 2010 ), as well as several works of non-fiction.
~
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby American Dream » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:44 am

American Dream wrote:
Can you provide a specific citation?

Thanks.

compared2what? wrote:
Yes. Can you do a Google search? Because if you can, you can find photos of that protest attached to articles that identify those protesters as Satmar, as well as articles that identify them as Neturei Karta. But more of the latter, which appear more reliable, as I'm sure you know. Although evidently you don't know and will never learn that I have no problem admitting error and humbly apologizing for it, which I hereby do. I additionally apologize for not doing it as feelingly as I would have if you'd just corrected me, which I regret.

And yes, I do fully concede in advance that my belief that you're playing a little power-trippy game is an assumption. It might be incorrect, therefore. But it wouldn't be unjustified.


What"s with this little dig about "power-trippy"? Since you started implicating Searcher in somehow not caring enough about pedophilia based on your assertion that the people in the photo were Satmar, I wondered why you did that and I asked you directly. You came back with the claim that you knew for a fact that they were Satmar due to a photo search but your claim only rested on our trust in you, since you cited no source.

Even though my limited searched produced no evidence that this was so, I thought to myself "maybe I don't know her super-secret research techniques" and that maybe there was good evidence that they are Satmar, so I therefore asked you directly for the source of your claims. This was based on a positive assumpton about you- that you would never make such claims and then stick to them citing only your personal authority, unless you could really back them up and that your research skills are strong.

So, quite honestly, I don't appreciate the attitude which you attach to your retraction.
Last edited by American Dream on Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby AlicetheKurious » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:58 am

Dear c2w,

I was amazed to read your post, in which you wrote:

The truth is that I'm afraid to speak up. Less because I fear the consequences personally than because if the antisemitism on this thread and on this forum is really as profound, immovable, and deaf to reason as it appears to be, I'd rather not find it out.


Such a serious and shocking statement demands at least a few citations, yet you provide none. On the other hand, statements like this one, by Percival, provoked no particular reaction, from you or anybody else:

Under the law of Jihad a Muslim is allowed to lie, cheat, steal, drink, do drugs, shave their facial hair, eat pork etc, whatever it takes to blend and mix with those around them and allow them to complete their sworn mission and I believe as I said that it wouldnt take long, if they were allowed to live freely side by side with the Jewish people, for them to grow the kind of numbers needed to actually deliver on their promise to drive every Jew in to the Med Sea and rid the entire region of every last one of them.


This, dear, is what hatred sounds like. This is racism based entirely on lies, egregious and outrageous lies that presume the reader's almost total ignorance and predisposition to accept racist whoppers, made up for the sole purpose of provoking fear and loathing against an entire class of people, to dehumanize them as the basis for justifying any act of violence against them, up to and including extermination.

Trying to hijack the narrative and transform it from one that is about millions of men, women and children who have been terrorized for decades and robbed of all their possessions before being herded into a de facto concentration camp where they are being slowly exterminated, into a tale about Jewish victimization, is nothing short of obscene.

This is not about Jews, it is about the Palestinian people, a people whose humanity has been trampled, whose property has been stolen and whose civil and human rights have been denied, and to add insult to injury, who have been kept voiceless and invisible behind the smokescreen of their oppressors' saturation campaign of demonization.

Racism is not only about "hatred" which is a feeling that can not be legislated away or even attributed with any certainty. Much more significantly, racism is about double standards when those who have the power to impose their will make moral judgments and distribute "rights".

For example, Jews living, say, in the United States take it for granted that the homes and other property they own will not be taken away from them because they are the 'wrong' religion, yet many of those same people find it very acceptable that Palestinian homes and property be taken by force and handed over to those of the "right" religion. These Americans know that millions of Palestinians are trapped in refugee camps, denied citizenship in their own land and the right to return to their homes, but they find it ok that they can simply board the next flight to Israel and instantly be granted citizenship with all the rights and privilege it entails. It is not seen as particularly wrong or racist that a Palestinian has far less right to his or her own home than a Jewish individual from Brooklyn, NY, regardless of who holds the actual deed.

Further, although many of these people agree that a state like Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa had no "right to exist" because the continued existence of both was predicated upon the denial of human and civil rights to an entire category of people in order to privilege another, they insist that such standards are not relevant in the case of the Judeo-supremacist state. Why are they not relevant? Because in this case the supremacists who claim such privileges happen to be Jews, rather than "Aryans" or Afrikaners.

They accept the annual transfer of billions of dollars' worth of advanced military equipment to the army of an expansionist, racist state that has consistently used it to slaughter innocent men, women and children and to clear them out of their homes in order to make way for Jewish-only colonies and Jewish-only roads, yet refer to those who try to resist and defend themselves as "terrorists". "Self-defense" is only acceptable when it is used as a justification by the aggressor, never when it is used by the victims of a genocidal and openly racist military power. At least, that is the case if the military power in question identifies itself as Jewish and if the victims are not.

These same people never address the question of how and why so many Palestinians have ended up behind the concrete walls and watchtowers of Gaza, nor why they have no citizenship and no acknowledged human rights like other people. Rights like the right to life, the right not to be kidnapped and tortured, the right to move from place to place, the right to eat and the right to drink water that is not contaminated with raw sewage and toxic chemicals. On the other hand, they advocate the "right" of Israel to put 1.5 million human beings "on a diet" and to deprive them of shelter and even schoolbooks.

Zionist apologists invoke "self defense" to justify the most revolting atrocities against the most helpless human beings, as though it were understood that there is a moral or legal principle that says that Jews have the right to steal and destroy and then to kill even infants and elderly and other civilians if any of their people try to resist those who commit aggression against them, simply because the latter are Jews and the former are not.

Sometimes these people say, "It's their own fault," and what they mean is that if only those creatures would embrace their own dispossession, their own status as vermin and cockroaches and lice and acknowledge the right of the Chosen People to take what they want from them, all would be well. If only they accepted that their inalienable right to return to their homes and all their other inalienable rights are just a bunch of words on paper that don't apply to them, that would solve everything. Well, it wouldn't solve anything for them, but certainly for the Israelis who long to enjoy their loot in peace; and after all, those are the only ones who matter, no?

Is there anyone here who has suggested that international humanitarian laws and principles be applied differently according to whether a person is Jewish or not? Yes, and in every single case the individual in question has advocated superior "rights" for Israel than for the Palestinian people, or indeed for any people.

As for the invocations of the Holocaust, it is cynical in the extreme to misappropriate victimhood simply because one belongs to a certain religion or ethnic group. The victims of nazi racism and violence have far more in common with the victims of zionist racism and violence than they do with the sadistic, super-militarized Israeli state, with its check-points, its phosphorous and cluster bombs and DIME weapons dropped from the sky on millions of trapped and destitute refugees, its policy of deliberate mass starvation, its racist laws and its indiscriminate slaughter of even small children because "there are no civilians" and "they are all terrorists".

I do not presume to know what is in people's hearts, but certainly people's statements here and the assumptions upon which they are based, if viewed objectively, make it very clear who is and who is not driven by racism. Only if one presumes that Jews are superior beings who deserve superior "rights" to other people (including the right to steal and the right to kill), is it possible to view the demand that the lives and legal and human rights of the Palestinians should be enforced exactly the same as those of Jewish Israelis is "antisemitic".

P.S. No snide comments about me being "back" -- I'm only visiting. And provoked beyond endurance.
Last edited by AlicetheKurious on Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby American Dream » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:53 am

An act of state terrorism

June 06, 2010

By Kevin Ovenden and Lee Sustar



Outraged protests have spread around the world following the Israeli commando raid on a flotilla carrying desperately needed humanitarian aid to Gaza. At least nine people were killed, and many more injured when Israeli forces attacked the unarmed peace activists in the middle of the night on May 31. But the Israeli government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu continues to spin lies about the assault, with the connivance of the Israeli and American media.

Kevin Ovenden is an organizer of the Viva Palestina solidarity group and veteran of two convoys to Gaza. He spoke to Lee Sustar about the murderous Israeli assault on the peace flotilla--and he makes the case that the Palestinian solidarity movement must seize the moment to build wider support for ending the siege.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

WHEN DID it become clear that the flotilla faced violence at the hands of Israeli military forces?

I BECAME increasingly convinced that the Netanyahu government would stop at nothing to stop the flotilla, and the reason for my thinking was that it became clear that allowing the flotilla in--given the level of international support that was developing on Thursday and Friday of the previous week--would have signaled the end of the embargo on Gaza.

In fact, what's happened has also signaled the end of the siege. It's changed the situation utterly.

At the time, I believed that Israel's calculation was based on two things--one, that the force used would be brutal, but would not lead to such a large number of casualties--though it would lead to casualties. And second, that they would get away without any backlash in world opinion because, quite frankly, they've gotten away with far bigger crimes. They got away with, at least in the immediate term, the murder of over 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza with the assault in December 2008 and January 2009.

By Saturday, May 29, and certainly by Sunday, I became convinced that this was the calculation that had been made.

Ninety miles away from Israeli territory--which is well within international waters--we made the first contact with Israeli forces when we were parallel with the north of Israel, just coming south of Lebanon. When that happened, I sent out a very short but ominous e-mail alert to friends to circulate, anticipating that there would be a violent attack on the flotilla.

THE ISRAELI government and the right-wing media claim that Israel made an attempt at a nonviolent seizure of the ships, and their soldiers only fired back when they were attacked by the residents with pipes and other weapons. What really happened?

I WAS on the lead ship out of six--the Mavi Marmara. The initial contact was made at 11 p.m. on Sunday night, and people came to the top of the ship--there was obviously a lot of commotion. We had satellite broadcasting on board, and we got our message out around the world.

But for two or three hours, people were milling around, and lots of people went to get some rest, on the advice of the organizers. It was pitch black--the middle of the night.

We were 90 miles away from Israel. The internationally recognized sovereignty zones extend 22 miles into the sea. Obviously that doesn't apply for Gaza itself, but we were well away from Gaza. The Israelis have unilaterally extended their sea border to 68 miles. But we were a further 12 to 22 miles outside of even that unacceptable and unsupportable extension.

So people got some rest. There were lots of people on the lookout. I woke up at 4 a.m. along with lots of other people--it was around the time for the fajr morning prayer for the Muslims on the vessel. At about 4:25 a.m., the assault began.

It began with percussion grenades. They are an explosive, and they can injure people badly when they go off next to them. They were designed to create panic, which itself is an extremely reckless and violent act when you consider that this was a civilian passenger ship carrying over 500 people from 32 different nationalities.

The youngest participant was not yet one year old. The oldest was 88 years old. We were carrying, among others, parliamentarians, including two members of the German Bundestag, and the exiled Eastern Catholic archbishop of Jerusalem, Archbishop Hilarion Capucci, who is 85 years old and has the use of only one leg. This is an indication of the kinds of people who were aboard the ships.

To fire percussion grenades and generate panic on a boat moving at a speed of about 22 knots in pitch darkness in the open sea in the Eastern Mediterranean at night is itself a violent act.

Israeli attack dinghies, called Zodiacs, moved up very quickly on the side of the boat. They were carrying fully armed Special Forces--full commando attack units.

By fully armed, I mean something like five pieces of firepower or knives--rifles, sidearms, commando knives, balaclava-covered faces, Kevlar helmets and so on. In other words, something akin to the U.S. Navy Seals people see in the movies in a glamorized way.

A helicopter moved in over the ship, and people began to file down. There was, of course, massive commotion aboard the ship. In that commotion, some people responded quite instinctively and with good cause--and with all legal and moral authority on their side. They pushed back, fought back with their hands and with whatever was to hand on the top of the ship where the first soldiers landed. Two soldiers were pushed from the top of the ship onto the next deck down.

They had already opened fire with what I thought to be rubberized bullets. These are not bullets that are made of rubber. They have a steel core, but are surrounded by rubber, and can themselves can be lethal. But almost immediately, we heard the different noise of live rounds being fired--but not indiscriminately or wildly. Rather, it was carefully targeted from both sides of the ship--which was surrounded--from the helicopter, and from those Israeli attack forces who were landing on the ship itself.

I can give you some examples of what happened--one from another colleague who was also on the Viva Palestina delegation aboard the ship, Nicci Enchmarch. She was next to one of the very first people to be killed. He was a Turkish man who was holding a camera--that's all he had in his hands. He was shot directly through the center of the forehead. The exit wounds through the back of the head took away the back third of the skull. He fell to the ground and experienced his last few seconds of life. This is the nature of the attack from the Israelis.

After they commandeered the whole ship and brutally rounded people up, they gathered together whatever they could find on the ship to pile up and show what we had used as weapons. We could see that they took knives from the kitchen, where of course there were knives. They were kitchen knives, not commando knives or anything like that--and they piled those up as if they were used as weapons.

They most certainly were not used as weapons. The evidence for that is the two Israeli soldiers, who were disarmed for the safety of everybody on the ship. They were very quickly disarmed and taken down to the area we'd set up as an improvised emergency room. They were looked after--guarded--so that there would be no reprisals from anybody who was feeling outraged.

The injuries that they sustained were injuries from being manhandled, perhaps hit with sticks. They were walking wounded. They were given back to their units as soon as possible, after the murderous attacks stopped.

This is why the Israeli lie machine is stumbling to a halt on this question. Whatever they claim, whatever selective footage they try to put forward, the brutal fact is that nine people--at least--were murdered, with gunshot wounds, and some Israeli soldiers ended up getting roughed up. That's the balance of the use of force--on the one hand, the use of force by some people to defend themselves; on the other, a truly murderous attack, a massacre.

CAN YOU help answer the question about the confusion, about the numbers dead?

YES. PEOPLE were killed in various parts of the outside of the ship, on the decks. The attack lasted for about 28 minutes. The captain was then able to broadcast by loudspeaker that the ship had been taken. He told everybody who had been on the outside of the ship to desist from demonstrating against the Israelis. Many of us, simply by our physical presence, were hoping to delay the attack and protect the lives of other people.

No one knew, when the live firing started, what would happen if the Israelis got inside the ship, and perhaps started firing wildly where there were even more people. So we then went inside to the large sleeping areas, and the Israelis poured onto the walkways and onto the very top of the ship--into the bridge and the engine room and so on.

Then, for more than an hour and a half, we appealed via the loudspeaker system, and via an Israeli Knesset [parliament] member, an Arab who speaks fluent Hebrew. She went forward to the windows with a sign explaining who she was, and that we had many, many injured.

We had managed to get as many as we could to the makeshift emergency room--some of which became a makeshift mortuary. But many of the people who were killed or seriously injured were still on the roof and the top decks of the boat. It was chaos--we didn't know how many there were. She was told to go back or she'd be shot, as would anybody who attempted to make contact with the Israelis.

For more than an hour and a quarter, we were appealing for help in a situation where quite literally we had people who were bleeding to death. According to the medics, at least one of those people who died may well have had their life saved if more sophisticated medical assistance of the kind that's onboard an Israeli vessel had been to hand.

But we were not allowed to evacuate any wounded over to the Israelis for more than an hour and a quarter, during which time one person died. So you can imagine the situation. There are seriously wounded people, and bodies lying in various parts of the ship. And then we were treated with a mixture of contempt, humiliation and attempts to degrade us throughout the rest of the horrific, horrific ordeal. There was scant regard for the wounded.

We tried to get out one wounded person at a time to the Israelis. The Israelis were not at all sensitive in handling them. We had them on stretchers, but they were rudely bundled up upstairs. These are people with abdominal and serious leg wounds. We sent experienced medics, one with each of the wounded. The medics were taken, thoroughly body-searched, handcuffed and not allowed to be with the wounded.

We weren't allowed to go upstairs, which was where most of the bodies were. So it's taken some time to piece things together. There are still two critically ill people in Israel, and there are six in the military hospital in Ankara, who are very seriously ill, but appear to be recovering. So I'm afraid to say that the figure of nine deaths, which took us 48 hours to establish, could go even higher.

WHAT WAS the treatment you were given when you were finally taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod?

THEY STOPPED the ship to begin removing bodies--this was still while we were at sea. They will, of course, have taken pictures. People have to ask themselves why, if the Israelis are so keen to explain what's taken place, have they have not been prepared to release those pictures to the world? We know why. I found out from Turkish officials that one of the people killed was shot at close range through the back of the head--which is an execution.

As the ship was stopped, and after the seriously wounded had been evacuated, we were led out onto the deck one by one, thoroughly searched, with all our belongings and everything taken. Some people had their passports taken at that stage.

We were cable-tied with those plastic cuffs--and most of the men with their hands tightly behind their backs. Most of the women were in front. Some people--journalists and members of parliament--were not cable-tied. But we were placed on the decks of the boats, with many people in stress positions, on their knees, heads down, arms cable-tied behind their backs.

We weren't allowed to talk. People who asked questions were pushed down. Anybody who tried to stand up was pushed down, so that they fell down, with guns pointed in their face. It was all the tactics that people may have seen meted out against the Palestinians and meted out by occupation forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the world--paramilitary terrorizing tactics.

I saw one British citizen on his knees, arms cable-tied behind his back, slapped three times across the face. Three people who I took to be Palestinian were also blindfolded and then kicked to the ground, arms tied behind their backs. Sheikh Raed Salahm--a leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel who was with us who is from Jerusalem--was taken off and severely intimidated, although he maintained his composure throughout.

There was a menacing atmosphere, one in which you could legitimately fear that someone could be shot even though they were handcuffed.

When we got to Ashdod, people were taken off one by one. As we were processed, Israeli intelligence and all manner of different state agencies were there. There were attempts to bully, humiliate, belittle and frighten people.

We were told as we got there not to worry--that we were simply going to be deported, and that we would be reunited with our belongings after we had been processed. After we were processed, we were put into prison vans, which are cells on wheels, and nobody was taken immediately to the airport as had been promised. That was all a mind game. Everybody was taken to a new prison facility in the Negev Desert. I arrived on the night of Monday the 31st and was eventually released on the morning of Wednesday the 2nd.

WHY DID you end up in Turkey?

WE IN the Viva Palestina delegation--and, I think, many others--had already decided that in this event, we would ask to go to Istanbul, because this is the area where most of the convoy had headed off from, and where we could rendezvous with friends from around the world.

In fact, all the Arabs were sent to Jordan, I think by land, and everybody else to Turkey. The Turkish civil organizations--and by that stage, the Turkish government--moved with incredible speed and determination to get absolutely everybody out and to safety. The Turkish airline sent three planes; the Turkish Red Crescent, or civil organization, sent two ambulance planes; and the Turkish military sent a third ambulance plane to Tel Aviv to get people out.

We now know that the Turkish prime minister said to the Israelis that if they were not going to release all of the prisoners, then Turkey was prepared for an escalating military confrontation.

WHEN DID you begin to perceive what a political storm the assault had caused?

I DIDN'T fully know that until Wednesday the 2nd. We were held incommunicado, of course, but I did have a visit from a man from the British consulate.

I should say that the treatment was not acceptable at all. We had nothing you could really describe as food on the first night, and the first thing we had resembling a meal was on the Tuesday afternoon, when consulate officials were visiting--which, as they said, was hardly a coincidence.

The consulate officials were treated contemptuously. I'll give you one example: the British consulate official from Jerusalem tried to have a private conversation through a prison cell door--we weren't allowed to meet face to face--with two British citizens. The junior prison guard refused to move. When he was asked to move, he brought two other prison guards. When the diplomat explained that under all international treaties, protocol and the law, he's entitled to speak to his nationals privately, the junior guard said, "Go to your international tribunals, go to your law, we don't care."

Of course, in a sense, the prison guard was right--he was simply reflecting the experience of all Israeli officials over the course of many, many decades, which is that whatever words are uttered at the international level, there's nothing to make those words reality.

But I heard from the British consulate official something of the scale of what had taken place. Even the new British foreign secretary--who at that point had not yet made a speech in the House of Commons--was condemning the attack and calling for an inquiry.

We'd managed to piece together among ourselves that there were, we thought, upwards of four dead. We knew that this would be a major story. As we were leaving the prison, with no real further information and being taken to the airport in coaches and prison vans, we could see Israeli police, military and civilians through the windows.

I could see the looks on their faces. I had prepared myself for a journey where we would be jeered at and laughed at from beginning to end, from Be'er Shiva to Ben-Gurion Airport. In fact, there were looks of hatred and aggressive gestures. It struck me very quickly that the only explanation for this was that in the international arena--although Israel had killed many people--it had wounded itself enormously in its standing and its strategic goals.

One thing's for sure. This was an attempt to instill fear--to use terror to achieve a political objective. This is the dictionary definition of terrorism. Real terrorism--state terrorism, by Israel.

WHAT'S NEXT for the movement to break the siege of Gaza?

THESE DISCUSSIONS are taking place right now among the leading components of the movement, so I don't want to say anything that preempts that. But I think that the following is common ground for everybody.

Firstly, there has never been such an event in the history of the solidarity movement with Palestine. This is the Sharpeville and the Soweto of the Palestine solidarity movement. Not of course, the Sharpeville and the Soweto for Palestinians themselves. They've experienced many such massacres--from Deir Yassin in 1948 all the way through to the attacks on Gaza in December-January of 2008 and 2009.

But for the Palestinian solidarity movement, this is the Sharpeville and Soweto, and it must be turned into such. Both of those events marked international turning points in the struggle against apartheid and the isolation of the apartheid regime in South Africa, and this strategically is what we need to work toward now. The momentum, which has come at an incredible, almost unbearable price, cost, is nevertheless against the Israelis. It's with the Palestinians and with all those who stand with them.

This development has several strands. First, various international bodies and governments have taken strong--and in some cases, unprecedentedly strong--positions, not just over the massacre and the call for an independent, international tribunal, but also saying clearly that the siege on Gaza has to come to an end.

This has absolutely been the position of the British government--a right-wing government has come out with a position that is stronger than the position of the Labour government 18 months ago during the time of the Gaza atrocities. That's not a product of government thinking--it's a product of the groundswell in Britain, and many, many other countries.

Former British MP George Galloway, my close friend and colleague, was on a speaking tour in the U.S. designed to maximize support for the flotilla and for Palestine. He spoke in one city on Monday night as news was beginning to break in Houston, and there were 300 or 400 people there. By Tuesday night, he spoke in Dallas, and there were 1,200 people there. He describes it as the most electrifying meeting he'd ever been at, and this is someone who's been at many meetings and many momentous events, particularly around this question.

So the tide is definitely turning. First, we have to turn all our energies into pushing every government and international body to come out with the strongest possible position, which has to include ending the siege on Gaza as an immediate step toward a wider advance for the Palestinian position.

Second, we have to appeal to the core of people who have already been active on one level or another around the Palestinian question, or those who are already convinced, to re-galvanize the movement, and go out and convince yet wider layers of people. We must argue the Palestinian case, and also push the case more generally to very wide layers of people.

In Britain, we're saying: How great is the price to be for blanket support for Israel, and for whatever its governments choose to do? The price has now become a murderous attack on nationals from 32 difference countries, the murder of nine people, attacks and humiliation and mistreatment of British citizens in the Eastern Mediterranean in an act of piracy on the high seas--an attack on a Turkish ship with Turkish crew. People talk of alliances, and Turkey is a NATO ally.

Is this the price they have to pay--that people who are supposed to be allies are to be murdered so that Israel is supported in anything it does? That's a price which people in Britain are not prepared to pay.

Through this argument, we can move people progressively to a deeper understanding of what's taking place. I genuinely believe that this is a major turning point--not just over the siege of Gaza, but over Palestine and the wider politics of the region. Everything we do needs to be carefully calibrated and strategically thought out to drive that home in the coming months.

Transcription by Sarah Levy.



From: Z Net - The Spirit Of Resistance Lives
URL: http://www.zcommunications.org/an-act-o ... in-ovenden
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Elvis » Sun Jun 06, 2010 6:48 am

Percival wrote:Again I ask, how can they handle this better and to your satisfaction? How can they handle the threat of extermination?


Hi Percival,
Can you agree for starters that Israel should stop the establishment of new settlements in the occupied areas?

Your post with the quote above has some points, but the settlements only make tensions worse.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:52 am

17breezes wrote:
justdrew wrote:Carter just had hamas backed very far away from the pledge of war, had there been any negotiations, any real willingness to pursue peace something could have been done. 17b... your willingness to think the worst of gentiles is exactly the thought process that traps Israel in needless war.


The Holocaust PROVES what "Gentiles," as you call them are like at their worst. One would think that after that horror, antisemitism would have died; but, it didn't did it?

When an American icon for the left like Helen Thomas lets her mask slip, as Cohen says "Everybody knows."


You know, that actually wouldn't be a meaningful thing that was PROVED by the Holocaust even if it were a thing that was PROVED by the Holocaust. Which I personally wouldn't say it was. What people are like at their worst, maybe. But people got a lot of styles of "worst." I can't really see what it avails anybody to try to narrow it down to just the one mode.

But never mind that. Because I have a very earnest point to make about the Holocaust that's entirely outside that whole paradigm, very little noticed, and too potentially dangerous to overlook.

Which is that from a Western European perspective, there wasn't a single thing unique or new or special about Nazi policy wrt Jews. It was a throwback and there's no point in saying "Never again" to it in that form, because it's never going to happen again in that form.

In fact a very large part if not all of the Nazi party's populist appeal boils down to exactly that: Scapegoating Jews by stripping them of all rights and property, and/or deporting them, and/or segregating them in ghettos, and/or massacring them was just episodically business as usual throughout the whole of Europe from the middle ages through to the post-enlightenment. And please do forgive me, but I really do feel that those who don't learn from history are doomed to being easily misled by appearances in the present.

So here goes:

First of all, people have always enjoyed disliking Jews and always will enjoy disliking Jews. That's never going to change until this epoch of civilization is over for good. Which is very unfortunate, imo. And not just because I'm Jewish, either.

But since it's hardly the most urgent or lethal crisis in most parts of the world where there are any Jews or where Jews want to be -- for example, it's no longer politically or legally sanctioned and no longer a literal threat to life and limb in those places, largely including Israel at least for the moment and in the recent past, it's just not productive or persuasive to carry on as if it were. It was for a long time, true. But the only place on earth where it's at imminent risk or close to the edge of being true now is in Israel. Which I think just lost its last hope of turning the tide in the foreseeable future, although I hope that's not true. Again, not just because I'm Jewish, or even because I'm Jewish at all, but because large numbers of people will die if it is. So let's see what we can learn from history.

To narrow it down first to 19th century Europe, and then to 19th century post-Holy-Roman-Empire-but-pre-German-Empire Europe (ie -- the slow unification of German states between 1806 and 1871, prior to the very rapid rise and even more rapid fall of the German Empire that gets you to interwar Hitler-ready Germany):

During the 19th century in general, the one million and one complications entailed by trying to keep European powers balanced enough to prevent the entire era from just being one set of Napoleonic Wars after another, along with some other factors, eventually led to at least the nominal emancipation and enfranchisement of Jews everywhere in Western Europe.

And that was not only unique and new, it was so unique and new that it pretty much stayed recurrently and remittently unique and new until after the First World War.

VERY broadly speaking, up until that point, during periods when economies were booming and dazzling cultural advances were being made, Jews were integrated members of society until a decline took hold, at which point it was time to bring out the Jew laws. In urban areas. Rural areas of course stayed provincial, the industrial revolution hadn't gotten far enough to change that yet. And Imperial Russia never even made it into the Renaissance, let alone the post-enlightenment. So they didn't get around to emancipating Jews until 1917. Which was more of a Hail Mary Pass than an emancipation, obviously. But they're not 19th century Western Europe anyway, to which the very next paragraph is going to return. So the hell with them for now.

Basically, the whole of that place and time was episodically overtaken with bouts of anti-semitic violence and repression. The personhood of Jews and the desirability of having them as full citizens was a divisive and complicated issue everywhere to everybody, including Western European Jews. That's why Hasidic sects arose, they weren't down with speaking the native language or mixing with the natives, they preferred volitional segregation.

And it was exta-complicated and divisive in what emerged as the German Empire. Because they had extra-complex national-identity issues to begin with, what with not in having any history wrt being a nation and not in fact being one, since they were then (broadly speaking) a confederation of loosely affiliated states that used to be part of the Holy Roman Empire, spoke German and felt kinda nostalgic for that time they all got together and overthrew Napoleon once and for all. Which is why they spent most of the 19th century alternately fighting as comrades and then as enemies while trying to figure out if Prussia was the boss of Austria or if Austria was the boss of Prussia, before settling on the former in 1871.

As a result of which, Jews were legally definitively globally emancipated throughout all the federated and independent German states at least three separate times during the 19th century without ever becoming emancipated in some parts of it at all either prior to 1871 or in some areas subsequent to it.

Long story short: By the time there got to be a German Empire and during the entirety of its little 47-year run as the most dominant, industrialized, advanced, prosperous and highly unstable nation-state on earth, the Germany somehow managed to engender a much fuller sense of cultural assimilation and civic patriotism among its Jewish citizens than practically any other country, while never fully assimilating them. And also while never really developing any unifying cultural traditions via which the majority population could differentiate or pride itself as nationally German.

I mean apart from the economic and infrastructural gains that they lost all of and then some during WWI, obviously. But the gist of what I'm saying is that Germany was situationally and culturally anomalous in post WWI Western Europe insofar as it never developed any coping mechanism for its Jew problems and never had an event like the Dreyfuss Affair that led to the sort and amount of national consciousness raising that the Dreyfus Affair had in France more than a century earlier. On top of which they lost WWI in a major way. They had practically nothing left except what were by then somewhat out-of-date unreconstructed antisemitic beliefs and practices. Which is not to say that the rest of the Western Europe still didn't enjoy disliking Jews. It did. But at varying rates, most Western European cultures with sizable Jewish populations had been generally moving in the direction of disliking them as assimilated citizens by the pre-rise of Hitler period actually. whereas Germany had only been doing it apparently.

In short, the rise of the Nazi party was the exception not the rule, and it spoke to the past and not the future of Jews in most of Western Europe.

So the only thing wrong with the near-universal belief that Hitler bowled his followers over due to the unprecedented candor with which he frankly and boldly reviled Jews or the never-before-matched pragmatism with which he sought to purge them from the land by any and all means necessary is that what actually bowled them over was how heavily precedented and reassuringly familiar those things were to a dispirited and economically depressed populace that had little in the way of widely shared cultural experience apart from fighting in wars and scapegoating Jews when times got tough.

But wait. That's not even my main point. This is:

There is something that makes the Holocaust both singular and notable, but it's not something Jew-centric, nor is it something that Jews or the majority population really had any way of meaningfully anticipating. Which was simply that in the inter-war period, technological advances in the machinery of death and destruction had made it possible to follow a rabble-rousing campaign of Jew-scapegoating by deporting hundreds of thousands of them and killing millions with less exhausting and debilitating physical effort and fewer publicly witnessed scenes of grotesque carnage than it had formerly taken to get rid of tens of thousands.

No one was prepared for that spectacle when it was revealed, and almost no one could handle being confronted with it. As attested to by the memory of many still-living people who were there for it. And that's what turned out to be the real game-changer in the western world. There just wasn't any way of knowing any of that at the time. I mean, it's not like you could realistically expect American or Western European Jews to have been sitting around in the '30s and '40s thinking: "Well, thank g-d the worst is almost over, after which we'll turn a corner and possibly do something to help out all the Eastern European Jews that nobody ever stopped slaughtering."

But there's absolutely nothing standing in the way of anyone knowing it now.

And from that point of view, at least, it's not only totally superfluous to say "Never again" as if the common connotation of that phrase had been borne out by events, it's not really any more considered or considerate than invoking the Holocaust as if it were the only damn thing that ever happened to make Jews feel that they'd never be safe as a diaspora people. As many posters to this forum appear to believe. Which is tragic.

But since I'm talking to you about what you're missing when you think of the Holocaust and say "Never again" and not to them about what they're missing when they posit a cause-and-effect relationship between the Holocaust and the foundation of the state of Israel as if those were two cleanly discrete and isolated events that came out of nowhere in the first half of the 20th century when the world fist began solely in order to lead us to our present state of indignation and outrage, it's also irrelevant.

So. Let's recap some of what you're missing.

First of all, no genocidal imperial regime in the post-war era, no matter how crazy, is ever going to risk letting the world see something like that again. Which is why you haven't.

Second of all, in political and historical terms, the Holocaust wasn't and still isn't a representative model of things to come for anyone in the contemporary industrialized Judeo-Christian west. It was more like the first and last serious 20th century attempt to revive the old-school minority-scape-goating-and-persecution-for-domestic-political-purposes practices of a former era.

Third, the present state of play wrt genocide is pretty much that non-Judeo-Christian countries that aren't in Western Europe or North America can still do it without leaving home. But with a few possibly never-ending exceptions (Hi, Ireland!) when we sophisticated civilizations want to rally the country by uniting it in a state of blind and mass-murderous rage toward a scapegoated Other who's a threat to Our Way of Life, we have to take it overseas and slaughter large numbers of the less civilized. Israel is sui generis in that regard in a way that's analogous though not equivalent to, say, South African sui-generis-ness. In that it's a culturally but not geographically Western European country. Of which there are a few. Here and there. Being worse than Israel but not provoking as much outrage, as South Africa is. For example.

And I'm out of steam.

I do wish this thread would try to focus on reality as it can clearly be perceived if you look at it for yourself, though. Neither the pro-Israel minority nor the ostensibly pro-Palestinian majority that expresses its support for Palestine by saying "Fuck Israel" is doing that at the moment. It's kind of what you might call a moment of horror and untruth.

Okay. I regret it already. But I'm hitting submit.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:11 am

American Dream wrote:
American Dream wrote:
Can you provide a specific citation?

Thanks.

compared2what? wrote:
Yes. Can you do a Google search? Because if you can, you can find photos of that protest attached to articles that identify those protesters as Satmar, as well as articles that identify them as Neturei Karta. But more of the latter, which appear more reliable, as I'm sure you know. Although evidently you don't know and will never learn that I have no problem admitting error and humbly apologizing for it, which I hereby do. I additionally apologize for not doing it as feelingly as I would have if you'd just corrected me, which I regret.

And yes, I do fully concede in advance that my belief that you're playing a little power-trippy game is an assumption. It might be incorrect, therefore. But it wouldn't be unjustified.


What"s with this little dig about "power-trippy"? Since you started implicating Searcher in somehow not caring enough about pedophilia based on your assertion that the people in the photo were Satmar, I wondered why you did that and I asked you directly. You came back with the claim that you knew for a fact that they were Satmar due to a photo search but your claim only rested on our trust in you, since you cited no source.

Even though my limited searched produced no evidence that this was so, I thought to myself "maybe I don't know her super-secret research techniques" and that maybe there was good evidence that they are Satmar, so I therefore asked you directly for the source of your claims. This was based on a positive assumpton about you- that you would never make such claims and then stick to them citing only your personal authority, unless you could really back them up and that your research skills are strong.

So, quite honestly, I don't appreciate the attitude which you attach to your retraction.


You're genuinely misunderstanding me. AD. I'm very ashamed of myself, although I did not start implicating Searcher in anything in the sense that you're suggesting. I was under the impression that I was calling his attention to something I assumed he didn't know, which I was not only too careless to confirm accurately but too arrogant to reconsider when you perfectly appropriately brought it to my attention. You were right. I was wrong.

The reason I left in the initial part of that response because it seemed obvious to me that it was so ludicrous on its face for me to be calling you power-trippy, as if I had a leg to stand on in saying that -- as I myself do go on to say, in case anyone misses that point -- that I deserved to be stuck out there with my petty bullshit as clearly visible as that fully retracted and totally uncalled for accusation makes it.

Because although I do fully retract it and understand that it was totally uncalled for, I did think it was justified for long enough to have written it. Which is totally shameful and reflects poorly (and accurately) on me. Not on you.

Was that clear? I'd be happy to make any changes you want me to. But fwiw, that remark was not intended to be read in context as if it were really a justified little dig. As I thought I had gone on to indicate.

It was intended to be read as me copping to being as much of an asshole to you as I had in fact been. In order to show you that I understood and didn't seek to minimize in what way I'd been in the wrong.for which I then went on sincerely to apologize.

To me, that makes an apology more meaningful, since a demonstration of insight and true confession of shame offers more assurance that there won't be a repeat offense than a simple statement of remorse does.

But it's totally up to you. Just let me know.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby stefano » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:45 am

compared2what? wrote:Judeo-Christian west.

How can you use that word in the same breath as an explanation of the centuries of oppression suffered by Jews at the hands of Christians?

compared2what? wrote:worse than Israel but not provoking as much outrage, as South Africa is.

I think you'll find it's 2010, we recently celebrated the 16th anniversary of our one-state solution. And there was plenty of very helpful outrage at SA a few decades ago. Also that the SA military never actually used artillery against black neighbourhoods, so "worse" is very debatable.

Percival, I'm glad you're posting, I missed a few days of this thread so might only get into it tomorrow, but the reason Israel attracts more criticism than, say, Sri Lanka is that it's the last colonial state, where whites are dispossessing natives at gunpoint. I agree that criticism of Israel is not always wholly fair, but do you really want to be saying that Israel's violence should be tolerated up to the point where it's as bad as the worst thing happening anywhere else in the world?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:58 am

c2w, I had only a vague knowledge of this issue in the Orthodox community, so although your tone was sharp, I could understand it, as something I should have been better informed about, and it is something that you yourself felt strongly about. I first was aware of it through the book 'The Color of Water'.
We do differ on many things, I have never felt personally attacked by you, and on a personal level appreciate you very much, as you make me listen harder and reflect more. :)
A D, I appreciate what you are saying about drawing a distinction between the Satmars and NK. I didnt even know of the Satmars.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby American Dream » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:21 am

For me, the whole thing about Satmars and Neturei Karta was based only on a nagging doubt, as I have lived in a neighborhood where various Hasidics were around, with there various regalia and internecine conflicts, and have also been to enough Palestinian solidarity activities to have seen Neturei Karta in action and know they are their own religious group.

Unfortunately, my Internet research techniques are not particularly sophisticated, so that left me with the nagging doubt and not an ironclad certainty either way.

Anyway, thank you Searcher and c2w for helping clear this up!

Now- back to the ongoing crisis, which is already in progress...
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:33 am

AlicetheKurious wrote:Dear c2w,

I was amazed to read your post, in which you wrote:

The truth is that I'm afraid to speak up. Less because I fear the consequences personally than because if the antisemitism on this thread and on this forum is really as profound, immovable, and deaf to reason as it appears to be, I'd rather not find it out.


Such a serious and shocking statement demands at least a few citations, yet you provide none. On the other hand, statements like this one, by Percival, provoked no particular reaction, from you or anybody else:

Under the law of Jihad a Muslim is allowed to lie, cheat, steal, drink, do drugs, shave their facial hair, eat pork etc, whatever it takes to blend and mix with those around them and allow them to complete their sworn mission and I believe as I said that it wouldnt take long, if they were allowed to live freely side by side with the Jewish people, for them to grow the kind of numbers needed to actually deliver on their promise to drive every Jew in to the Med Sea and rid the entire region of every last one of them.


This, dear, is what hatred sounds like. This is racism based entirely on lies, egregious and outrageous lies that presume the reader's almost total ignorance and predisposition to accept racist whoppers, made up for the sole purpose of provoking fear and loathing against an entire class of people, to dehumanize them as the basis for justifying any act of violence against them, up to and including extermination.


Alice, oh my god, am I happy to hear your voice, even if you're yelling at me. I too am practically beyond endurance, and more for the same reason that you are than because I have my panties in a twist about some purely rhetorical bullshit emanating from people who are free enough and safe enough for their ill-considered remarks really to be all that high on my list of priorities. That notwithstanding, I will never be so beyond endurance that I forget that you and I are both doing our level best to advocate for the powerless and condemn the oppressor, despite our divergence of opinion wrt some pretty significant specifics.

Do you mind if I don't respond in detail for now, beyond to say that I know what hatred sounds like, that I also know what real concern sounds like, and that I don't think I'd seen that post of Percival's? Although I did just finish doing my level best to convey to 17breezes (as well as Percival, as well as anyone else who gives a fuck what I think) where some of the fundamental errors on which their distorted perceptions are based come from.

Also, sorry, but I'm not going to name names or provide citations on the antisemitism charge, now or (probably) ever. Because I don't see how that could possibly help anyone, least of all the powerless people for whom I wish to advocate. Which I don't do as well as you do, or as forcefully as you do, but which I nevertheless do my very best to do.

To be honest, my orientation and style on this issue is so much a product of my experience that it just inherently has very limited currency here.

Because it's so very heavily influenced by my having spent so much time and energy trying to explain to members of my own family, whom I love, not only that Israel's culpability is not, in fact, at all equivalent to whatever culpability there might be or once long ago was on the Palestinian side, it's actually so many orders of magnitude greater that even if there was one-hundred percent reciprocity in bad acts on both sides at this stage of the game -- which there isn't -- they wouldn't be equally meaningful. Because in that particular match-up, Israel has all the power, and the Palestinians have none. Furthermore, it's been many, many decades since it was even remotely realistic for Israelis to believe that their right to exist was at risk of being eliminated by Hamas, whereas it's not even a question of belief or future prospects on the Palestinian side. Their right to exist is being eliminated. And that's reality.

And there's really not only indisputably less need for anyone here to listen to that explanation than there is in my family, there's not a whole lot more need here than there is in my family to....I'm not quite sure how to put this. But it's very difficult to get American Jews to take a moment to think about how fucked up they still are as a direct legacy of the brutality and poverty and fear and anger that their grandparents or great-grandparents lived with in Eastern Europe if they lived or in the United States if they were last-wave immigrants in the 1875 to 1913 period. As my grandparents were, for example. Because they were totally destroyed people, and that kind of damage gets handed down for generations and generations before it dwindles to within non-traumatized parameters.

Which is not something that solely afflicts Jews and Arabs, obviously. In addition to which, generational poverty by itself is enough to put that ball in play. So there's really not a single reality associated with any people imposing a state of war and/or oppression of any kind that I can think of that's more important to be mindful of always than that one, imo. Andyet there's not a single reality than that one that people are more resistant to acknowledging, in my experience. WRT to themselves and their own kind or anybody else's, pretty much equally.***

Anyway. I'm rambling. For which I apologize. Also, fwiw, I'm sorry that my level best isn't up to the level you want it to be, although there's only so sorry I can be about that, since it is my level best. I just haven't got anything to add to it beyond the hope that there's a corresponding limit on your disappointment with me.

So...Best and fondest wishes for now, honey my dear. However disjointed their expression might be. I've missed you much,

c2w

*** ON EDIT: Just to be extra-double-plus clear here, my point is not that it's essential for Jews to understand the suffering of Jews, but that it's essential for all people to understand how profound and long-lasting the damage done by power to powerlessness is, and to understand it in a way that's fully integrated enough that no matter via what avenue they got to it, they won't be able to say anything apart from "Never again" in any situation in which that needs to be said -- ie, any situation in which one class of people (or for that matter, a single person) systematically strips another of personhood. Universally.
Last edited by compared2what? on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby 17breezes » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:40 am

Username wrote:~
Thank you for the thoughtful response. Agreed, America is just as much a murderous bullying nation as that of Israel. And the Jew-hating stuff is getting fierce. Absolutely scary. I don't know what to say about it either, really. But I feel we're being played. Both sides.

And Percival and Breezy aren't helping.
~


And why aren't we helping? Are you afraid of different opinions/facts? Do you crave a hive mind?
"Go back to Auschwitz" Humanitarian peace activists, 2010.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby norton ash » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:44 am

17 Breezes, you're fucking worthless.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby American Dream » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:59 am

These days the various Palestinian solidarity actions I am at are plagued by small numbers of zionists whose only role is perhaps to provoke and represent that their position has adherents. They are not changing minds, near as I can see. Quite the opposite- their minimization of human rights abuses serves primarily to organize against their cause.

I'd personally say that 17breezes and Percival provide the functional equivalent here. I'm not in favor of banning pro-zionist arguments but the signal-to-noise ratio here is becoming deafening...
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported

Postby Jeff » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:03 am

norton ash wrote:17 Breezes, you're fucking worthless.


The arguments are fraught enough already, please leave aside the personal attacks.
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