Giffords shooting

[IanEye]

"It looks like Palin, Beck, Sharron Angle and the rest got their first target. Their wish for Second Amendment activism has been fulfilled." - Eric Fuller

[Nordic]

I am not what you'd call 'pro-gun.' But I am not anti-gun, either. I just don't think that this incident can be twisted to support a "see? armed citizens are dangerous!!!" argument because, like you said Nordic, this guy proves that it isn't the case.

One instance isn't something you can generalize about.

My biggest issue is with these fantasy-heads who think that a proper gun-totin' macho (and presumably beer-gutted) right winger is gonna be a deterrent to something like this. That's where I have the issue.

"If only there had been a responsible gun owner packing heat at that moment!" is the usual refrain from those morons.

Well it's stupid because, as we've seen, and as Bruce describes above, it's pointless.

And I would have to say that adding a bunch of panicked people into a panicked situation WITH GUNS does NOT increase the safety of those present.

Just because in this case the guy didn't shoot is kinda irrelevant.

At the same time I don't really believe in gun control, either, so ......

[undead]

Listen to the hate against the right in this forum alone, and this isa sort of apolitical/brainy/intuitive/creative crew.

Well, we're all right here on this forum, so there must be a wealth of examples within easy reach. Please show us some!

.

Yeah, where's the hating of the right wing happening on this forum? I mean there's definitely a lot of sarcastic loathing, hand wringing, deconstruction, exposition, analysis, etc. But I don't see any "left" elements hating on anyone. When you comment on fascism, you are commenting on pure hate, so a clear view of that is always going to be really unpleasant.

This might seem hateful, but it really isn't. I don't give a fuck about Gabrielle Giffords or whether she lives or dies. I had never heard of her when this happened and since she supports concentration camps for undocumented immigrants, then karma's a bitch, I guess. Whatever. Lot's of people get killed like this *every day* in Mexico and I care a lot more about them, other innocent people who were killed and wounded, and whatever insane reaction this incident will precipitate from the police state. It is really a shame that this has to happen in order to snap the American public out of their sleepwalking and the sad thing is that I doubt this will be enough.

[undead]

I also wanted to add that although ALL innocent deaths are tragic and wrong, the inordinate amount of attention given to that little girl and the other innocent bystanders killed that day is indicative of the maniacal racism that this country was founded on. They get a speech from the president because they were Americans, and their lives are more valuable than those of people who live in other countries.

[Simulist]

Only women should ever be allowed to have guns. The death rate from guns, including wars, would drop to a tenth or less (and most of it would still be from men).

Sulfur, charcoal, potassium nitrate, and testosterone make a dangerous mix.

(Pretty icky too, probably.)

[Luther Blissett]

Maybe you think it was coincidental that Giffords was already on Palin's crosshairs map and getting death threats and having her offices vandalized and complaining about it publicly, before an actual assassin appeared and shot her for completely unrelated reasons because he was crazy. I do not. (I also think this is of greater significance in explaining what happened than that someone on the scene was named Dave Bowman, or that the young girl the assassin murdered happened to be born on 9/11/01.)

Just wanted to go on the record that, although I got caught up in the weirdness of all the synchs in this story, I most definitely agree with Jack here. There is a deeply disturbing, and I believe deliberate, pattern of violent rhetoric and imagery directed, to a very large extent, at those perceived to be liberal, progressive, or (heaven forbid) socialist. As much as I'm horrified by what happened, in all honesty, it amazes me that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often than it does. That it happened to a female Democrat in Arizona is entirely unsurprising. This is not to say that I don't see anger and hatred directed at the right by those on the left, because I do, but I don't see it as much, and I don't see it much outside of specifically left-leaning forums. I certainly don't see it much at all in any of the mainstream media.

Also, although my anti-gun sentiments have lessened in recent years, I have to come down on the side of those who say adding more guns to the mix is not really solution to anything.

Female and Jewish congresswoman in Arizona. I too agree with Jack. I really hope that no one is offended or finds my "coincidence" post to be callous.

[freemason9]

Personally, I'm strongly in favor of vastly expanded gun ownership, but only among those rational and restrained enough not to be strongly in favor of vastly expanded gun ownership.

Only women should ever be allowed to have guns. The death rate from guns, including wars, would drop to a tenth or less (and most of it would still be from men).

.

that's the craziest fuckin thing i ever heard

[Canadian_watcher]

I'll give authoritarian, but I'm not so sure about right wing. Obama's running the show right now and I think there have been a few authoritarian moves under his watch.

The Wall-Mart tell on your neighbour messages.
The clamp down at airports.
The idea of an internet ID for all.
Continuation of all the Bush-era denials of civil liberties in spite of promising the contrary...

need I go on?

Obama's running the show? He's on the left? How many false premises are you going to cram into that?

.

word!

but that should bring into contrast how absolutely screwy things have gotten in the yewessavay. The Dems worship (and I don't use that word loosely) a leader who by all rights should be being worshipped by the craziest of crazy right-wingers. But.. that isn't the scene - the scene is the opposite, except nobody sees it, and so they point fingers at each other inot noticing they are deep within a house of mirrors.

[8bitagent]

how would a gun wielding person know who to shoot? It's highly likely that they'll pick the wrong person, just as HAPPENED in this case, it just so happens he didn't shoot, another person likely would have. Then a third person shows up and shoots him. Round robin. I have zero trust in my fellow Americans, especially those fellow Americans who are so pathetic as to feel the need to carry firearms while running errands around town. It's madness.

Oh Im absolutely sick of it. Very soon, not more than about 10 miles from the scene of this tragedy, they're going to be holding this massive machine gun expo. Last year an 8 year old child accidentally was killed by an Uzi machine gun at another such major gun show. In Vegas soon they're holding a gun show the size of E3 and CES.

Im sick of all these insecure brainwashed Fox News watching guys in America who think real manhood is owning a firearm. All these Republican men and women politicians using gun use terminology in their rhetoric. All these paranoid quacks who think guns are the answer to EVERYTHING. Im sick of mainstream conservatives pushing this gun worshipping culture(they should be wearing necklaces with jesus holding a gun for how much they love the rifle) Im sick of the "alternative" right and Alex Jones aggressively trying to give every listener a gun and thinking every kid should own a firearm.

I used to attack the left, out of my own frustration on how so called fellow progressives were ignoring(or even supporting) the Afghan war while being against the Iraq war. Or for blindly following Obama without question. Or for being ignorant to the nonstop Pakistani drone attacks. But I am just sick to death of all this "climate change is a hoax/Obama is a commie socialist who faked his birth certificate/healthcare is to kill granny/guns solve everything" right wing retards and incindiary hate filled rhetoric. My god, Rush Limbaugh openly says he wishes segregation was back in schools and in your face racist views and noone barely raises an eyebrow anymore.


Marilyn Manson summed it up best:

Yeah, where's the hating of the right wing happening on this forum? I mean there's definitely a lot of sarcastic loathing, hand wringing, deconstruction, exposition, analysis, etc. But I don't see any "left" elements hating on anyone. When you comment on fascism, you are commenting on pure hate, so a clear view of that is always going to be really unpleasant.

This might seem hateful, but it really isn't. I don't give a fuck about Gabrielle Giffords or whether she lives or dies. I had never heard of her when this happened and since she supports concentration camps for undocumented immigrants, then karma's a bitch, I guess. Whatever. Lot's of people get killed like this *every day* in Mexico and I care a lot more about them, other innocent people who were killed and wounded, and whatever insane reaction this incident will precipitate from the police state. It is really a shame that this has to happen in order to snap the American public out of their sleepwalking and the sad thing is that I doubt this will be enough.

Wait, she is aggressively against undocumented Mexicans? I thought her and Judge Roll were the target of anti illegal groups? I thought Giffords was more talking about the drug cartels, which I agree have gotten completely out of control.

forget abortion (wedge) or guns (wedge)

I'm pretty sure the family of George Tiller won't be forgetting either of those wedges.

Yeah you gotta love America. If you're a woman with a stillborn, horribly malformed fetus, or deathly pregnancy you're pretty much fucked.

[Simulist]

But.. that isn't the scene - the scene is the opposite, except nobody sees it, and so they point fingers at each other inot noticing they are deep within a house of mirrors.

I used to think I was in a hall of mirrors. Now though, I'm starting to think it's the Ronald Reagan Hospital for the Mentally Ill.

Maybe we were spirited away there back in 1980s on a wave of unfounded optimism... Peggy Noonan was the admitting nurse and Dr. C. Everett Koop was the administrator and psychiatrist. James Watt is outside tending to the grounds, and Ethel Merman is still singing "Everything's Coming Up Roses."

(Looks like we picked the wrong decade to go nuts!)

[8bitagent]

Does JLL really need a "handler"? We are quick to afix the term "blackop" to every event...but I don't know...

JLL went to Walgreens the night before the shooting to get developed(who still gets pictures developed?) pictures of him naked holding his weapons near his crotch.
He then checks into a motel. He goes to a Walmart to get bullets, gets denied...but has success at another Walmart. He also buys the infamous 'black duffle bag' there. Then at around 4am posts a goodbye message online to friends. He gets issued a ticket by cops for traffic violations, has an argument with his dad, and ends up hailing a yellow cab. He cant pay the guy so he has to go into Safeway
to break a $20.

Then at precisely 10:10am, the massacre begins. I just can't see a "handler" assigned to this case. There are suggestions and triggers a lot more subtle than that.

Also is it me, or are guns more of the problem than the solution? How many countless accidental deaths and injuries come from kids playing with guns/middle of the night accidental shootings/etc?

And its now a fact that 80% of all the guns used in the Mexican civil war by drug cartels come from Texas gun shops and conventions. I guess the right wing talk radio and NRA doesnt want to talk about that

Maybe you think it was coincidental that Giffords was already on Palin's crosshairs map and getting death threats and having her offices vandalized and complaining about it publicly, before an actual assassin appeared and shot her for completely unrelated reasons because he was crazy. I do not. (I also think this is of greater significance in explaining what happened than that someone on the scene was named Dave Bowman, or that the young girl the assassin murdered happened to be born on 9/11/01.)

Just wanted to go on the record that, although I got caught up in the weirdness of all the synchs in this story, I most definitely agree with Jack here. There is a deeply disturbing, and I believe deliberate, pattern of violent rhetoric and imagery directed, to a very large extent, at those perceived to be liberal, progressive, or (heaven forbid) socialist. As much as I'm horrified by what happened, in all honesty, it amazes me that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often than it does. That it happened to a female Democrat in Arizona is entirely unsurprising. This is not to say that I don't see anger and hatred directed at the right by those on the left, because I do, but I don't see it as much, and I don't see it much outside of specifically left-leaning forums. I certainly don't see it much at all in any of the mainstream media.

Also, although my anti-gun sentiments have lessened in recent years, I have to come down on the side of those who say adding more guns to the mix is not really solution to anything.

And sadly we will probably see more of these acts of violence in such a right wing hate climate.

[Canadian_watcher]

But.. that isn't the scene - the scene is the opposite, except nobody sees it, and so they point fingers at each other inot noticing they are deep within a house of mirrors.

I used to think I was in a hall of mirrors. Now though, I'm starting to think it's the Ronald Reagan Hospital for the Mentally Ill.

Maybe we were spirited away there back in 1980s on a wave of unfounded optimism... Peggy Noonan was the admitting nurse and Dr. C. Everett Koop was the administrator and psychiatrist. James Watt is outside tending to the grounds, and Ethel Merman is still singing "Everything's Coming Up Roses."

(Looks like we picked the wrong decade to go nuts!)

the world sure was different back then.. sorta. Well not really - just the interest rates.

I don't feel nuts anymore though, I feel sane for the first time in years. Maybe it's because my neighbour to the South is so bat-shit crazy that in contrast I feel I'm doin' just fine. and also if I compare myself to the miserable souls on "Intervention" "Hoarders" "My Strange Addiction" "Dr. Phil" etc etc then whoopee! I'm King of the World!

[nathan28]

FWIW & since there was speculation in this vein earlier, CNN is offering a 'reconstruction' of the shooting. Loughner by CNN's account positioned himself between the table Giffords and two others were standing at and at the end of the crowd so that he could fire on Giffords and then have everyone else lined up catercorner across from him a few feet away so that he'd be almost certain to hit people. He had a semi-auto 9mm, so he could have emptied the clip fast enough that people likely wouldn't be able to disperse in time to get away.

If that's accurate, I find it shows some quick-wittedness that he was able to position himself that advantageously, or maybe he had some training (which isn't that hard to come by, I know people who have taken "tactical" firearms courses for the hell of it).

But that said, as far as an assassination, well, it doesn't look like he killed the intended target so much as just caused mayhem, which leads me to doubt that he was 'handled' to kill Giffords.

[nathan28]

NPR's editors now want to put your high school permanent record in the gun background check database.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/15/132942261/experts-gun-background-checks-have-big-gaps

Experts: Gun Background Checks Have Big Gaps
by Laura Sullivan
January 15, 2011

When Jared Loughner walked into the Tucson gun store where authorities allege he put down his money for a Glock 19 in November, the store owner sent a request to run Loughner's name through the FBI's database of criminals, fugitives, illegal immigrants and mentally ill to see if Loughner was among them.

Loughner had had several runs in with police for possessing drugs and had been told to leave his community college for erratic behavior. But the arrests never became convictions, and his behavior was never evaluated by state mental health professionals. So like 10 million others across the U.S. last year, Loughner passed and got his gun.

Despite the outcome, it's not people like Jared Loughner — people who may have questionable but not criminal backgrounds — that have gun control advocates worried. It's the database itself, which is only as good as the records that states put into it...

Okay, yeah, sure, put the shit your square tenth grade teacher told the school guidance counselor on the background checks. "He smells like he smokes cigarettes, and he just sits drawing pictures in his notebook in class! I think he's mentally ill!" But, hey, what's this, from the same article?

The database is a 13-year-old system called NICS — the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. It pulls records from not only state and local police but dozens of other agencies, including the U.S. Park Police, campus police and the U.S. Border Patrol...

"If there's an open warrant for someone's arrest, the database is usually correct," said Robert McCrie, professor of security management at the John Hay College of Criminal Justice. "Where it is not correct is in the disposition of cases — if the charges are later dismissed or the case is continued. That's not very reliable, and that's a problem"...

In 2005, the latest figures available, the Justice Department determined that more than 3,000 people walked out of a gun store with a firearm that they should not have been able to buy...

Some of the biggest challenges for the database, experts say, are domestic violence and drug cases, which often have inconclusive ends. Defendants are sometimes given a year or two to attend treatment, complete community service or enter therapy before a court decides whether a conviction will stand. An arrest is not enough to prohibit someone from buying a gun.

In 2009, the FBI ran 10.8 million background checks on potential customers. About 150,000 people were rejected. Most had felony or domestic violence convictions, or a restraining order, on their records. Less than 2 percent were rejected because of a mental illness.

So, out of eleven million checks, which means less than eleven million individuals, 150,000 people were rejected correctly, and only 3000 were 'false negatives' where the individual shouldn't have had access. IOW, for every one person who got a gun they shouldn't have had, fifty people were, by the present data base, appropriately and legally denied firearms.

Likewise, very few people who are "mentally ill" to the point of being 'dangerous' even attempt to buy guns, which in theory is the issue here, that Loughner was "troubled", which is arguable at best.

Beyond that, the experts the article cite state that the biggest gap in the database is with deferred and dismissed cases, which the article elaborates on as referring to drug and domestic violence cases, both of which inundate courts so much that the courts resort to recogs as de facto probation to mitigate prison crowding*.

Implicit in the article, as the editor's headline makes clear, is the idea that shit like conversations with public high school guidance counselors rank on par with the professional assessment of a psychiatrist, or with a jury's or judge's felony ruling. Likewise, implicit is the sentiment that an arrest, regardless of outcome, ranks as a felony, though there the suggestion is that drug and domestic violence cases are the issue, not recog/ACD/deferred sentencing, but that's how it comes across.


* Also, courts don't take domestic violence seriously and cops are usually scared to answer domestic disturbance calls.

[The Consul]

[quote="nathan28"]
If that's accurate, I find it shows some quick-wittedness that he was able to position himself that advantageously, or maybe he had some training (which isn't that hard to come by, I know people who have taken "tactical" firearms courses for the hell of it).

[quote]

Or he just logged in 2000 hours of Halo and Call of Duty. Still, it is amazing that a guy could be so frantic and unbalanced and yet to focused once inside the kill zone. He had a very high target rate. Still begs question of entry point of first shot vs. his position, Giffords placement.

Sickening to think just how easy it was.