Trayvon Martin

[seemslikeadream]

FACT

George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin

He will look over his shoulder a frighten being for the rest of his live long days..he will never live as a free man...his fate is set.... his prison will follow him wherever he goes


I say that is justice

[American Dream]

I get the feeling that people dont understand the concept of evidence and its importance when it comes to deciding to put people in prison.

There was no evidence to support the charges in this case, none, zero, nada. Do we really want to lower the burden of proof and allow people to be put in prison based on guess work, gut feeling and hunch, do we really not understand the long term consequences of that.

The jury made the decision based on the evidence presented, we may not like it, I DO NOT LIKE IT, but I accept it and understand why it has to be that way.

There are many, many contradictions and ambiguities to be considered regarding jurisprudence in the United States. C2w does a consistently excellent job of laying those out, from what I have seen.

That said, this makes me think of a discussion of Fascism that is confined to to the issue of Adolph Eichmann's job performance only...

I understand our system isnt perfect but I have yet to see a better one, all I am saying is that there is a burden of proof that has to be met and it wasnt. There are many reasons for that, some of those reasons are the prosecutions fault, the cops fault and perhaps even racism itself, but the fact remains the evidence was not there and almost 100% of the legal experts who do not have some sort of political agenda agree that the right verdict was rendered even if they hate it and disagree with it they cannot rightfully say that the verdict was wrong given the evidence that was presented to that jury.

I am sickened that Trayon is dead and that GZ couldnt just mind his own fucking business, but sad as it all is, the evidence was just not there and we cant just throw the burden of proof out, selectively, for some cases, just because we dont like the end result, WE JUST CANT DO THAT, the consequences for that are dangerous and not a road we really want to go down.

The verdict has been rendered, that part of this story is OVER and should remain OVER but I understand there is certainly a lot more to discuss about racism in general and what led to this whole thing happening to begin with, lets continue to have that discussion but we have to stop calling for the feds to come in and retry a case that has already been tried and a verdict rendered, we just really DO NOT NEED TO BE GOING DOWN THAT ROAD especially now with all the abuse the govt is already involved in, to give them the ok to do that is just lending more support to their abuse of power.

There is so much to be said about how the U.S. legal system reflects, enforces and perpetuates the oppression that is at the core of the System here in what some may call "best nation on Earth" for some, perhaps. This does not change the brutal realities at work in the heart of America for many, however.

That would be a great place to start in understanding what went wrong, and how we can help make things better...

I agree with you on that and that is a discussion that needs to continue, minorities and the poor in general are not afforded the same due process as the rest of us and that is something that bothers me a lot. I am not sure what to do about it but I think it will work itself out, white people are quickly becoming the minorities in this country and I suspect that we are going to see a lot less of the sort of oppression you are referring to as the old guard ww 2 generation that has been leading this country all these years be slowly replaced by the new more diverse generation of today. So I think going forward things look better but right now we are of course still seeing some of the same old shit we saw in the 40s 50s and 60s when it comes to blacks and how they are treated by the system. But think it is slowly changing as the positions of power and authority ar enow being taken over by those very people who have been oppressed all these years. I was very happy when we elected Obama, it was a great day for this country, I cant say I am happy with his performance and I hope that doesnt hurt the cause overall because that was a great day when we elected America's first black president and I now look forward to a woman, a hispanic and even perhaps a person of an alternative lifestyle someday sitting at that desk in the WH, those will again be watershed moments for this country and I see no reason why we are not headed in that direction in spite of the fact that RIGHT NOW it appears we are going backwards instead of forwards, we really arent, those are misleading appearances, we are making progress and diversity is at the forefront of it all, there is no stopping it, sheer numbers alone make it the most powerful force in American politics today. That old generation is about gone and good riddance.

That may be true to a degree as far as individual racism and other forms of oppression go. However, as to institutional issues that will take a whole lot more of thinking, organizing and changing.

It's debatable how much a multicultural rainbow and/or gender spectrum of faces pulling the gears of the System in and of itself will help. If the System doesn't change radically, we're stuck with the same old problems, as Obama himself illustrates so poignantly...

[seemslikeadream]

and that lovely American justice system that never makes mistakes?????

Are you shitting me?

Sometimes they put people in prison when they're innocent sometimes they let guilty people go free


systemic defects in the criminal justice system

The Innocence Project: Freeing The Unjustly Imprisoned
By Bob Morris | 04/16/2012 | Civil Rights, Legislation, News, States

Cornelius Dupree after exoneration. He spent 30 years in prison. Credit: innocenceproject.org


The Innocence Project uses modern DNA testing to free those who have been wrongfully sent to prison. They have helped in the release of over 250 inmates after DNA tests proved conclusively they did not commit the crimes. It is important to note these are not judgment calls nor are the circumstances murky. Rather, the new DNA evidence proved them to be innocent. But what is often murky are the circumstances leading to the convictions, including undue police pressure on witnesses, aggressive interrogation tactics, mishandling evidence, and prosecutorial misconduct.

Some of those freed were in prison for many years. Thomas McGowan spent 23 years in a Texas prison for a rape and burglary and was freed after new DNA testing on the rape kit proved he was innocent. Four Chicago men had indictments against them dismissed after a judge overturned their convictions because DNA evidence implicated another person. There have been 289 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the US, with 222 of them since 2000. The average time served was 13 years with about 3,800 years total served. Think about that. Imagine if 13 years of your life was taken away and you were locked up for crimes you did not do. About half of the exonerees get financial compensation. Among the troubling statistics, almost two-thirds of the exonerees are African-American and an overwhelming number of all of them are low-income.

There is something wrong with a justice system where so many innocent people are sent to prison, especially since they tend to be poor and black. The Innocence Project says these cases are not isolated but instead demonstrate systemic defects in the criminal justice system. The biggest problem is eyewitness misidentification, especially when different races are involved. “Studies have shown that people are less able to recognize faces of a different race than their own.” Sloppy or improper forensic science is also problematic, as are false confessions. Appallingly, “in 35 percent of false confession or admission cases, the defendant was 18 years old or younger and/or developmentally disabled.” Also informants are generally unreliable and may be trying to cut a deal for themselves. And unfortunately, police and prosecutors can and do engage in misconduct, destroy evidence, and withhold important facts which sometimes even include knowing the defendant is innocent.

The Innocence Project has worked with several states and court systems and reform is coming. They have labored long and hard in the dark world of wrongful imprisonment and welcome your support.

[8bitagent]

I get the feeling that people dont understand the concept of evidence and its importance when it comes to deciding to put people in prison.

There was no evidence to support the charges in this case, none, zero, nada. Do we really want to lower the burden of proof and allow people to be put in prison based on guess work, gut feeling and hunch, do we really not understand the long term consequences of that.

The jury made the decision based on the evidence presented, we may not like it, I DO NOT LIKE IT, but I accept it and understand why it has to be that way.

1. Police told him not to follow. He disobeyed

2. If Zimmerman had just gone to do his little errands at Target, both he and Trayvon would have gotten home and everyone would be living happily ever after

3. If 1/1000th the energy and voice put into the Zimmerman verdict was put into the ENTIRE epidemic of young black males dying by gun fire, this would be a better world

[American Dream]

http://gatheringforces.org/2013/07/17/j ... n-america/

Just Us: There Can be No Justice for Trayvon Martin in America

2013 JULY 17

One night Trayvon Martin walked to the store. On the way back he was followed and harassed by racist vigilante George Zimmerman. The vigilante murdered him.

The police showed up, but they knew Zimmerman. His father was a judge. They took him to the station, questioned and let him go. Zimmerman became a hero for right wing, white supremacist forces. He told Sean Hannity it was God’s plan that he killed Trayvon and that he had no regrets. Only nation-wide protests forced the state’s hand to bring charges weeks later.

The facts of the case are well-known enough. No need to repeat them.

Over a year later Trayvon Martin was put on trial in front of a nearly all-white jury. Rachel Jeantel was put on trial. Black people were put on trial. A typical teenager, Trayvon was turned into his opposite: a black male preying on white America. No one should be surprised about the verdict, though liberals and progressive seem to be. The civil rights establishment is at a loss for words. They have nothing to say after no better an example of the fact that the law is not for black people, the oppressed, or the working class.

How could Trayvon, a typical teenager, and Zimmerman, a spiteful predator, be turned into opposites?

Look at the interrogation of Rachel Jeantel on the stand by Zimmerman attorney, Don West. Jeantel was relentlessly attacked by West for over five hours, repeating the same questions over and over again. West dragged Trayvon through the mud, implying that he was a menace who deserved to be killed. While the strategy was meant to agitate Jeantel, the lawyer knew she could not respond to his attacks. West implied that because Jeantel didn’t go to the police, she must be lying. But she knew what West knew: she was afraid to go to the police. But that fact can’t be recognized by the law because the law pretends that all citizens are equal. Trapped on the stand, the deck stacked against her, all she could do was show she was not going to let West break her, as she said in a later interview. Afterwards the lawyer went out for ice cream with his daughters. They took a selfie and put it on Instagram, laughing at Jeantel as ‘stupid’.

Don West’s interrogation, with a nearly all white jury looking on, is the law in America. Like Trayvon, her very existence made her guilty. The law, by definition, could not be on Trayvon’s side. He wasn’t the first to be murdered by American “law,” and he won’t be the last.

White supremacy is a system. It arises from the social relations at the very foundation of this society. It’s wrong to say that if Zimmerman stayed in his car, then nothing would have happened. This wishful thinking ignores the fact that Zimmerman called the police on an innocent boy, and those cops would stop and frisk at best, or could have framed or killed Trayvon at worst. It happens everyday. But the whole point of the verdict was that Zimmerman had the right to harass and confront Trayvon because he “felt” threatened.

No matter what a good kid Trayvon was he can’t be seen this way in American society. He must be misrepresented, falsified and slandered by the system.

The reason for the half-hearted prosecution of Zimmerman is not because of the evidence. The failure is in the fact that the state was incapable of making an anti-racist case against Zimmerman. The state is product of and expresses the dominant forces in society.

When the state attorney, Angela Corey, was laughing and smiling after the verdict, telling us the ‘system worked,’ a whole mind set was revealed. She went through the routine and the charade. The special prosecutors did their ‘job’ – business as usual. A year earlier, Corey put Marissa Alexander, a black woman, in jail for 20 years after Alexander fired a gun into a wall to warn off her violent and abusive ex-husband.

Much is made in the media of so called white fear. No such thing exists. It is bad faith to say so. This ‘fear’ is in fact sadistic grievance and hate. It is black and brown people in this country and around the world who fear white rage everyday. It should be feared because it is objective – it is not simply an expression of some individuals or specific social groups of whites. It is the system itself – its laws, its police, its division of labor, its prisons, its political parties, its media, its imperialism.

Of course, there is nothing new about this reality. However, we are faced with a resurgent white populism that has only been gaining strength in a society going through immense social and political polarization. This white populism is not expressed in the state, but attempting to work outside the bounds of the state. That is what Zimmerman did.

The trial and verdict is just another expression of this white supremacist populism. Zimmerman’s attorneys constructed an unapologetic racial defense and was supported by a nearly all-white jury, one of whom called the protests over a year ago demanding the arrest of Zimmerman, ‘riots’. Defense lawyers stated directly that Trayvon was a threat because he was black. It was Zimmerman’s right to chase and stop Trayvon. According to Zimmerman attorney Mark O’Mara, Trayvon ’caused his own death’.

The message is clear. Black people must be watched, harassed, and sometimes killed. Folks like Trayvon can’t stand their ground and defend themselves against an armed vigilante following them. If they do, they can be imprisoned or killed. In the press conference after the verdict Mark O’Mara stated ‘if Zimmerman was black,’ then ‘he would have never been charged with a crime.’ He was doing nothing but putting a point on the political case they waged in the court room.

The murder of Trayvon Martin and the acquittal of Zimmerman have happened within a bigger picture. With the world crisis the decay of capitalist system is deepening. Social and political polarization in the United States has been increasing. It isn’t only that the capitalist class has relentlessly attacked the living standards during the crisis. But along with it there has been a growing social counter-revolution. We all know its features: women’s reproductive rights increasingly outlawed, unions being outlawed, the right to vote attacked and curtailed, the unrelenting imprisonment and torture of millions of people in jails or on probation for life, dismantling of public education, the creation of a massive surveillance state, and the fast growing authoritarianism of official society, the elite and a section of the middle class. And while bourgeois parliamentary politics continues to break down, in Washington D.C., the state capitols around the country, and in the corporate offices, the ruling class, the well-off and the politicians are living in a new gilded age. These are all expressions of a corrupt, decaying society.

The liberals, the progressives, the civil rights and immigrant rights establishment have nothing to say. What can they say? This is America. They say be peaceful. But what should you do in the face of a capitalist class and the white supremacist, anti-women forces of reaction? They want black people dead. They want Latinos dead. They want Muslims dead. They want the whole of the working class and the oppressed on their knees, barely alive, begging for their dignity.

Many don’t believe in this system. The number increases everyday. They know the laws are not for them. Many are talking about what to do next. For sure we need to go into the streets by the millions. What is happening around the world has shown plain as day that a giant is awakening.

But mass protests are not enough. We must organize ourselves for political power to really challenge and end the system. In order to do that we have to build up our ability to intervene in society by creating independent organizations of the working class and oppressed. Only when we can intervene and stop business as usual in the workplaces, on the block, and in the schools will there be justice.

[seemslikeadream]

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

[Hunter]

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

Yes but that manual is NOT LAW, so it is an issue that can be used in CIVIL LAWSUIT for proving NEGLIGENCE and all sorts of other things but it has no bearing on a criminal case or the second degree murder charges because there is no law, no statute that says the above anywhere in the criminal code. So it can and will ikely be used in the civil case and it should be, it will show that he was negligent and the HOA was negligent for not making sure he was unarmed, which is why the HOA already settled and paid the Martin family one million dollars, because of that specifically I am sure, there is no defense against that, they were negligent for allowing GZ to carry that weapon or at least making certain that he wasnt. But there is no law that says he cant carry that weapon, IN FACT THE LAW SAYS HE CAN CARRY IT WHEREVER AND WHENEVER HE WANTS. He broke no law by having that gun he only broke an HOA rule.

[Hunter]

I get the feeling that people dont understand the concept of evidence and its importance when it comes to deciding to put people in prison.

There was no evidence to support the charges in this case, none, zero, nada. Do we really want to lower the burden of proof and allow people to be put in prison based on guess work, gut feeling and hunch, do we really not understand the long term consequences of that.

The jury made the decision based on the evidence presented, we may not like it, I DO NOT LIKE IT, but I accept it and understand why it has to be that way.

1. Police told him not to follow. He disobeyed

2. If Zimmerman had just gone to do his little errands at Target, both he and Trayvon would have gotten home and everyone would be living happily ever after

3. If 1/1000th the energy and voice put into the Zimmerman verdict was put into the ENTIRE epidemic of young black males dying by gun fire, this would be a better world

POLICE did not tell him to not follow, this lie keeps getting repeated and it is false, the 911 operator SUGGESTED he not follow, go back and listen to the 911 operators testimony he makes it very clear that he cannot TELL ANYONE WHAT TO DO he can only make suggestions and nobody is required to follow those suggestions, they are not police officers, GZ had no contact with POLICE OFFICERS until they were on the scene and after the shooting occured.


I agree with 2 an 3 you are correct. Number 1 is wrong though, the he had no contact with the police and a 911 operator cannot demand you do anything they can only suggest this or that and he made that very clear when he was on the stand. They cant tell people what to do because they would then be held liable if what they say turns out to be the wrong thing so he said that he sort of just suggested "well we really dont need you to be following him sir."


He did follow him and THAT IS WHAT LED to this whole mess and I believe GZ should not have done that but as I have pointed out and Mr fish also, countless times, it is NOT AGAINST THE LAW TO FOLLOW SOMEONE, it may be a stupid decision but it is NOT ILLEGAL and that is what matters when you are on trial for murder, what is legal is what isnt legal, E V I D E N C E of which there was NONE to convict him of 2nd degree murder EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW AND AGREE GZ WAS A FUCKING BONEHEAD WHO WAS IRRESPONSIBLE WITH THAT GUN, he didnt break any laws. HE DID NOT BREAK ANY LAWS, as least that the evidence shows, there is no evidence that he broke a law and that is what is needed, evidence.

[seemslikeadream]

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

[American Dream]

I'll continue to stand by my previous statement that "this makes me think of a discussion of Fascism that is confined to to the issue of Adolph Eichmann's job performance only..."

[Nordic]

HE DID NOT BREAK ANY LAWS, as least that the evidence shows, there is no evidence that he broke a law and that is what is needed, evidence.

What the fuck is wrong with you? He shot and killed somebody. There was a goddamn dead body there, that's your fucking evidence, you fucking racist.

[Hunter]

I'll continue to stand by my previous statement that "this makes me think of a discussion of Fascism that is confined to to the issue of Adolph Eichmann's job performance only..."

I have no fucking clue what you are trying to get at but if somehow you are trying to say I am a fascist or supporting such then just come out and say it.

IF I AM MISUNDERSTANDING YOU THEN I APOLOGIZE SINCERELY, but I am honestly confused that you have no followed three of my posts with some sort of statement about this all reminding you have fascism and Eichman. Maybe I am not smart or clever enough to catch your drift but I am a Jew by the way so I dont really care too much about discussing those pieces of shit or bringing them in to this thread, but by all means, please elaborate.

I THINK what you mean is that I am not seeing the bigger picture here and that is just not true, in fact that is exactly what I am seeing and speaking about, the bigger picture of the dangers of not making sure the state meets its burden of proof and what would happen of we lower that burden. But who knows, I am probably just not smart enough to hang with some of you around here when it comes to these discussions.

[Hunter]

HE DID NOT BREAK ANY LAWS, as least that the evidence shows, there is no evidence that he broke a law and that is what is needed, evidence.

What the fuck is wrong with you? He shot and killed somebody. There was a goddamn dead body there, that's your fucking evidence, you fucking racist.

Wow, that was uncalled for and I would like a mod to address this, I am not a racist and my comments and posts indicate no such thing.

My point was there is no evidence as to how that murder took place, nobody was there to see it and therefore there was no evidence to present to a jury to make a decision on how it happened, YES WE CAN ALL GUESS AND ASSUME HOW IT HAPPENED AND I AGREE WITH YOU but that isnt evidence presentable in court in a trial for murder.


But I will tell you what, I am done here and I would like a mod to just go ahead and delete my account, I wont tolerate ever being called a racist and I have NEVER POSTED A SINGLE THING to indicate that I am racist, I have AGREED THAT THE VERDICT SUCKS and I am sickened by what GZ did I simply said there was no evidence to convict him on the charges filed and every single legal expert agrees so I guess we are all racist.

Mods you can go ahead and delete my account, since my time here I have seen nothing but mean spirited attacks on posters who are offering genuine and sincere and opinion and not attacking anyone, in fact I have never attacked anyone on this board or even been warned about such BUT THIS FORUM IS TOXIC and I want nothing more to do with it, I DEMAND you delete my posts and my name or I will deal with it through your host and server.

Thank you in advance and in the future you really should try and clean this place up, this sort of crap is intolerable.

To those I made friends with I thank you for your time and contributions but this is the straw that broke the camels back, this is the most unfriendly and toxic fucking forum I ever been to and I have tried to stick around and make it better and never once met fire with fire but a person can only take so much, So again please delete every comment and my account from this forum.

[American Dream]

I'll continue to stand by my previous statement that "this makes me think of a discussion of Fascism that is confined to to the issue of Adolph Eichmann's job performance only..."

I have no fucking clue what you are trying to get at but if somehow you are trying to say I am a fascist or supporting such then just come out and say it.

IF I AM MISUNDERSTANDING YOU THEN I APOLOGIZE SINCERELY, but I am honestly confused that you have no followed three of my posts with some sort of statement about this all reminding you have fascism and Eichman. Maybe I am not smart or clever enough to catch your drift but I am a Jew by the way so I dont really care too much about discussing those pieces of shit or bringing them in to this thread, but by all means, please elaborate.

I THINK what you mean is that I am not seeing the bigger picture here and that is just not true, in fact that is exactly what I am seeing and speaking about, the bigger picture of the dangers of not making sure the state meets its burden of proof and what would happen of we lower that burden. But who knows, I am probably just not smart enough to hang with some of you around here when it comes to these discussions.

No, not saying you are a fascist, or even want to be racist. I am saying that it is a big concern that you are systematically excluding most of the important issues, which are to me much better represented in this piece:


Just Us: There Can be No Justice for Trayvon Martin in America

http://gatheringforces.org/2013/07/17/j ... n-america/

[Hunter]

One last comment, OK AD I understand and I really was confused what you meant, thank you for the explanation, and I think I understand what you are getting at now.

Anyhow I am done, its been coming for a while and this isnt the first and Nordic alone didnt cause this, I know he is a good dude and is probably just frustrated but still that is no excuse and the board itself is being increasingly more unfriendly and less enjoyable by the MINUTE.

Take care.