What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 82_28 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:33 am

There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wintler2 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:05 am

gnosticheresy_2 wrote:There is always seems to be a hierarchy in any human interaction, and with that hierarchy seems to come the threat of physical violence. And that is always present in face-to-face interactions, no matter how much the participants wish otherwise.

Agree, with qualification: I think monocutural hierarchies are neccesarily violent - many rich man/pretty women will assume they're at the top of pecking order and arc up at any defiance or disregard of their assumed rank, cos they feel threatened by other sources of rank, e.g. elder, intellectual, skill-based, and don't want to recognise them. But if multiple hierarchies can co-exist, and the dominant-paradigm alpha's have the sense/hear useful feedback to not hog the limelight and to support rank for others, then everybody can get a piece and violence can be made if not absent then at least much more distant.

gnosticheresy_2 wrote: Maybe one way to neutralize it is for all participants in any interaction to explicitly acknowledge that this hierarchical ordering is going on - humour is the best way imo, humour that depreciates the self to the benefit of others, rather than humour that depreciates others to the benefit of the self.

Ya ya absolutely, and mustn't it be the high-ranked/more powerful individual who starts the disarmament?
E.g. as an adult trainer, i look out for something i don't know in the first class with a group, so i can point it out, "i don't know, does anyone else here know how to..?", and everybody relaxes. How to defuse or share rank between genders is not always so simple..
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:17 am

Nordic wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:
Nordic wrote:
Canadian_watcher wrote:This whole undercurrent of who-would-beat-who-in-a-fight.. that's not good, dudes. .


Well whether you think this is "good" or not seems rather pointless. Because I'm pretty sure this is hard-wired into us, the way it is in dogs.


yeah, I guess.. like the way all women are natural moms.



Well, define "natural". All women are, in fact, natural moms if you consider that they're biologically equipped to be moms. Men certainly aren't.

And I'd say most women are hard-wired to be moms, like most men are hard wired as I was describing. Certainly not "all" but "most".

Tick tock tick tock. That's the biological clock most women seem to have. RIIIIIINGGGGG!!! That's the alarm going off in the early 30's.


This is the dreaded 'nature versus nurture' debate... is it really biology, or is it culture? It is an endless argument and most people inevitably end up coming to the conclusion that it's both.

Both women and men have the capacity to become parents (barring physical complications). So really, biologically speaking, it should be hard-wired into both sexes. Our culture, on the other hand, does little to associate males with fatherhood, particularly fatherhood of newborns and young children.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Nordic » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:12 pm

Maybe we're sick of this thread, but I just thought of something that seems important:

Can women be misogynists? And if so, how does this contribute overall?

I thought of this because of this story:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/16/r ... gang-rape/

Republican lawmaker blames 11-year-old victim of alleged gang rape


In this case, the "Republican lawmaker" is a woman.

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 82_28 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:38 pm

Watch me stick my foot in my mouth again and go and get banned.

But you bring up a great point, Nordic. I just don't think misogyny is a gender specific issue, but rather a cultural one and a cultural issue that indicates a built in decline. Almost as if our culture, this western culture, this judeo-christian culture, this technocratic culture was built TO decline by keeping us divided. While I know that I cannot speak for a woman, I also know that I can speak of how I feel about women and my deep respect for what I will never have to go through, as I am not a woman. Yet the respect remains. When I have a problem with somebody, it is with that person alone. However, our common languages have built in genders. We're kinda "lucky" with English as we do not observe linguistic/etymological genders. I do not know what role this plays in the formation of a human mind as the child learns its respective language and customs. So, I really have no idea. But on a person to person basis, misogyny need not exist if common respect is not only observed, but lived. There are just as big of assholes on the male or female end.

We can still be friends and recognize that there are a number of variables which help to form our ideals. Thank god ideals still exist in at least, hopefully, a critical mass of us.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Project Willow » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:38 pm

Well, I do believe you two have just discovered the un-popped cherry atop of the cake of your infuriatingly, mystifyingly uninformed, and insensitive contributions.

Congratulations! :partyhat
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Plutonia » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:31 pm

82_28 wrote:Almost as if our culture, this western culture, this judeo-christian culture, this technocratic culture was built TO decline by keeping us divided.


...capitalist markets are revolutionary, but their revolutionary nihilism makes them all the more effective both as contagions of democratic desire and as means by which its social conflicts are mediated and temporized. Capitalism does not just spread the gospel of equality; it also makes it socially workable, within limits. But only by means of a cultural revolution that transforms all traditional moral understandings, especially in the region of personal life and the relation of the public and the private. However effective this may be in servicing the exigencies of the democratic psyche, though, it threatens the cohesiveness of society. Thus the paradoxical productivity of capitalism: the more creative it is of democratic wealth and culture, the more it disintegrates social order. Capitalism serves to postpone antagonisms within “civil society,” the envies and jealousies of democratic men and women, but only by intensifying antagonism between itself and social order as a whole.
It mediates conflicts on the inter-personal level, but only by aggravating the collision between “society” itself and its “sacred” order
...

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... LZ3fyCj3Ow
[the British] government always kept a kind of standing army of news writers who without any regard to truth, or to what should be like truth, invented & put into the papers whatever might serve the minister

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:27 am

Project Willow wrote:Well, I do believe you two have just discovered the un-popped cherry atop of the cake of your infuriatingly, mystifyingly uninformed, and insensitive contributions.

Congratulations! :partyhat



That's just fucking insulting.

So my view doesn't fit into your men-vs-women, men-are-evil-women-are-victims view of the world.

I know you probably have your reasons for feeling the way you do, but who is displaying prejudice here?

Should I bring up black slaveowners in the pre civil-war South? How about Jews for Jesus? Are all these things off limits because they piss somebody off and don't fit into a neat and tidy world view?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wintler2 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:34 am

Nordic wrote:..So my view doesn't fit into your men-vs-women, men-are-evil-women-are-victims view of the world.

Strawman (irony accidental), unless you can quote PW saying anything remotely like that.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wintler2 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:48 am

82_28 wrote:Almost as if our culture, this western culture, this judeo-christian culture, this technocratic culture was built TO decline by keeping us divided.


Wrong end of the telescope: capitalism was built BY keeping us divided.
Plutonia wrote:"...capitalist markets are revolutionary, but their revolutionary nihilism makes them all the more effective both as contagions of democratic desire and as means by which its social conflicts are mediated and temporized. Capitalism does not just spread the gospel of equality; it also makes it socially workable, within limits. But only by means of a cultural revolution that transforms all traditional moral understandings, especially in the region of personal life and the relation of the public and the private. However effective this may be in servicing the exigencies of the democratic psyche, though, it threatens the cohesiveness of society. Thus the paradoxical productivity of capitalism: the more creative it is of democratic wealth and culture, the more it disintegrates social order. Capitalism serves to postpone antagonisms within “civil society,” the envies and jealousies of democratic men and women, but only by intensifying antagonism between itself and social order as a whole.
It mediates conflicts on the inter-personal level, but only by aggravating the collision between “society” itself and its “sacred” order
...

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... LZ3fyCj3Ow

Not sure i get this, does it mean consumption lulls away the outrage of interpersonal violence?

-

Was reading Derrick Jensens 'Language older than words' again recently, a relevant quote:
Several times I have commented that hatred felt long and deeply enough no longer feels like hatred, but more like tradition, economics, religion, what have you. It is when those traditions are challenged, when the entitlement is threatened, when the masks of religion, economics, and so on are pulled away that hate transforms from its more seemingly sophisticated, "normal," chronic state--where those exploited are looked down upon, or despised--to a more acute and obvious manifestation.

Hate becomes more perceptible when it is no longer normalized.

Another way to say all of this is that if the rhetoric of superiority works to maintain the entitlement, hatred and direct physical force remain underground. But when that rhetoric begins to fail, force and hatred waits in the wings, ready to explode.
"Wintler2, you are a disgusting example of a human being, the worst kind in existence on God's Earth. This is not just my personal judgement.." BenD

Research question: are all god botherers authoritarians?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:36 am

Nordic wrote:
Project Willow wrote:Well, I do believe you two have just discovered the un-popped cherry atop of the cake of your infuriatingly, mystifyingly uninformed, and insensitive contributions.

Congratulations! :partyhat


That's just fucking insulting.



That's how it landed with me, too. Highly underwhelming and not a great advert.
Last edited by Searcher08 on Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby marycarnival » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:42 am

Project Willow wrote:Well, I do believe you two have just discovered the un-popped cherry atop of the cake of your infuriatingly, mystifyingly uninformed, and insensitive contributions.

Congratulations! :partyhat




What? Bullshit. Sorry, but that's bullshit. Man, some of you people have blinders on...and PW, you're just proving 82's point...

'There are just as big of assholes on the male or female end.'

Yes, that's right, PW, I'm calling you an asshole. Because you're being one. If this gets me banned, I don't care, because...

I'm sick of this shit. Apparently, 'misogynist' means anyone who has a valid point.

I don't effing care if this gets me 'court-martialed' on this board....fuck this stupid shit. And yes, I am an actual woman, not someone pretending to be one on the interwebz....

I have felt unable to really express my feelings on this subject, because a hostile environment has been established...not by guys, but by the women....I feel like if I actually say what I feel, I will be ripped to shreds, just like everyone else who has questioned anything put forth by a woman on this thread....but now I just don't care....I have to express my feelings about this.

Goodbye, RI.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:10 am

Why not get rid of the last two words, marycarnival ?

I appreciate you are well pissed off. I agree that one has to 'tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may'. But stick around - please?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Cedars of Overburden » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:30 am

MaryCarnival, I am a woman too, here under my brand new name, and I too am wondering WTF is going on here. Pleaes don't go. I like what you have to say and not just the above.

PW, do you actually not think women can be mysognistic? Or are you just PO'd?

Here's my big fat two cents: Anyone of any gender or genetalia who thinks rape is sometimes okay is a mysognist. Period.

Again, WTF?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby marycarnival » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:32 am

Thank you, searcher...and cedars...

Of course I will stick around unless explicitly told not to...

I'm just all tore up over this whole thread...I've been biding my time, afraid of responses I might get, and, well, censoring myself...I'm just saying that I feel like if I really say what's on my mind.....like I said, I'm going to get 'ripped to shreds'. Only because I've seen it happen to others....I don't have the thinnest skin in the world, but not the thickest either...

I just thought that I saw things getting a little more reasonable around here...and now things seem to be flaming up again...frustrating.

And now I'm sure that now 17 people are going to tell me to 'explain' why I feel this way....fuck it. Should be self-evident.
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