Theophobia

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Theophobia

Postby justdrew » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:04 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
justdrew wrote:
near-term foresight, and flexible pragmatism, I'm not sure how well anyone, including Hopi elders, have been at predicting how things will work out 210 years in the future (~7 generations).


well, we can be sure that science has fucked that up, too. Radiation and all that. And peak oil (if that's something you believe).. and urban planning. And .. well.. lots of stuff. And given that science is based on 'truths that can be proven' there must be another accounting for why they've botched things so effing badly. What might that be?


those choices were not made by science but by political power. but science can be wrong about things too, the hope is that science provides a ready means to correct and call-out error. This get's mucked up when profit and power enter into the picture. Anyway, science never provides absolute certainty of anything, it just helps (when used objectively (which can be hard to do)) make better, more informed edumacated guestimations. everything has error bars.
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:39 pm

justdrew wrote:those choices were not made by science but by political power. but science can be wrong about things too, the hope is that science provides a ready means to correct and call-out error. This get's mucked up when profit and power enter into the picture.


yes, I agree. But how to change that fact? Would we be better off looking into rationalist/scientific methods of changing the dynamics of profit and power or would we be better off appealing to emotion and spirituality?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby justdrew » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:09 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:
justdrew wrote:those choices were not made by science but by political power. but science can be wrong about things too, the hope is that science provides a ready means to correct and call-out error. This get's mucked up when profit and power enter into the picture.


yes, I agree. But how to change that fact? Would we be better off looking into rationalist/scientific methods of changing the dynamics of profit and power or would we be better off appealing to emotion and spirituality?


all of the above I hope, whatever works :thumbsup
By 1964 there were 1.5 million mobile phone users in the US
User avatar
justdrew
 
Posts: 11966
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: unknown
Blog: View Blog (11)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:58 pm

Laodicean wrote:And a big thank you to C_W for this thread.


Thank you, Laodicean... I enjoyed that video and the article, too. Dawkins doesn't come off well at all in either of them. In fact, saying I 'enjoyed' that video is not quite right; it was difficult to listen to, TBH. There were a few moments I thought I could find some common ground with what they were saying, though, which was a bit of a relief.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:14 am

I just ran into these very "spiritual" people. This is one reminder among many of the perils that can be found around issues of "faith":

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/

The Brahma Kumaris in a Nutshell

Image


Brahma Kumarism: a strictly millenarian (End of the World), spiritualist religion based on mediumistic teachings from a “spirit entity” adherents believe is the god of all religions. “God”, the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University teaches, speaks to humanity exclusively through their psychic mediums only and they remain extremely secretive of its original teachings, which they call “The Murli”.

The Brahma Kumaris do not follow or promote Hinduism, nor do they teach “ancient” Raja Yoga as they claim. Instead they use the language of such traditions, the New Age and personal growth movements with hidden meanings in order to to attract and acquire new adherents.

Beliefs: that 6,000,000,000 plus human beings must die during an imminent and desirable ‘End of the World’ called “Destruction”, in order that 900,000 faithful Brahma Kumari followers will inherit a heaven on earth before 2036.

Followers are led to believe that a heavenly royal status can be achieved by donating money, free labor and unquestioning mental submission to the Brahma Kumari leadership, who will rule the world as Emperors and Empresses.

According to the Brahma Kumaris, a high status in this future heaven on earth is achieve by donating the most to them at this time. The world is to be “purified” by an unavoidable nuclear holocaust, which they will “give courage” to scientist and military leaders to inspire. All other continents except for India, which the BKWSU predicts it will rule after the Government hands over power to them, will sink below the oceans. Previously their leaders Lekhraj Kripalani and Om Radhe believed themselves to be the cause of WWII and it to be the End of the World.

This is referred to as “The Knowledge” and largely kept hidden from outsiders

Image


Controversies: the Brahma Kumaris have, over decades, invested millions in a public relations front which hides the truth of their religio-political cult. Not only outsiders, such as the politicians, United Nations Organization and VIPs they target, but also newcomers to the religion are deceived by the leadership. Few, even amongst their regular followers or supporters, manage to penetrate the facade of “positive thinking” and “self management leadership” courses used to encult outsiders and penetrate their inner circles to learn the truth of their politico-religious agenda.

As with other occult religions, the Brahma Kumaris leadership has sought to cover up or deny child sex abuses at its headquarters, multiple suicides of followers at centers, financial corruption and abuses, immigration abuses, the persecution of minor or breakaway groups, the breaking up of families and continues such practises as the mass marriages of virgins girls to their god spirit, whilst demanding dowries from their families and the wealth of Indian villagers, often in the form of gold and jewellery.

Latterly, seeking an Central Bureau of Investigation inquiry, the cover up of cases of murder and rape have been raised by the Government of Haryana’s financial commissioner Sri R R Fuliya to Rajasthan chief minister Ashok Gehlot.

Much of the academic documentation about the religion is equally superficial and misled. Where in the past the Brahma Kumaris have courted, or been able to call up the support of misinformed cult apologists, recently long term adherents have started producing their own biased academia about the religion. Much effort and expense is spent in chasing “microphone souls”, high profile, non-adherent opinions formers who they believe will broadcast their chosen message often unaware of their ulterior motives, and the creation of opaque front organizations.

Background: from 1932 until after 1950, followers venerated their millionaire financier Lekhraj Kripalani as the god “Brahma” before, again borrowing from Hinduism, introducing a new god named after “Shiva”. Such historical revisionism, as well as a number of failed predictions of “Destruction” going back to WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s and so on, have been covered up from new followers and re-written. Likewise, so have the original mediumistic messages called “The Murlis” BK leaders claim are God speaking to humanity during mass seances at their Indian headquarters, the only place on earth they say is “pure enough” for God to incarnate.

The BKs’ “God Shiva” says he comes to “destroy all other religions”. Brahma Kumarism is the one, true religion. All other religions, called “the path of ignorance”, are said to be partial and imperfect memorials of Brahma Kumarism. BKWSU leaders claim to be, and encourage their followers to believe they are becoming, the deities worshipped by Hinduism today, the angels venerated by Christianity and the top 8 or 108 human beings who ever lived.

Time, according to the Brahma Kumaris, is limited to a single, identically repeating, 5,000 year period called, “The Cycle” in which human beings procreated by the power of mind for the first 2,500 years, the dinosaur period existing afterwards at the time of Ancient Greece. Likewise, in another 2,500 years into the future, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University leaders teach that Abraham, Buddha, Christ and Mohammed will all be reborn again in order to start to teach, after having re-learnt their religion under them.

According to the Brahma Kumaris, Abraham, Buddha, Christ and Mohammed and others are also said to be spirit mediums, possessed by spirit entities which whom they reincarnate for the duration of their religions’ history.

The organization will claim to be both a religion and not a religion according to which status benefits it the most. It has both religious and political ambitions.

Leadership: known as a wealthy religion in India, the BKWSU leadership continues to financially benefit from their position by encouraging their adherents to a total mental, physical and financial surrender to their God. “Service” projects, largely PR event rather than actual charitable acts, increasingly involve business class air travel and 4 star hotels.

The benefits of leadership includes the appointment of unpaid personal servants, a tax free existence in an environment where adherents are encourage to donate in cash, and the shared enjoyment of a valuable international property portfolio, including a number of attractive international retreat centers.

The Brahma Kumari leadership, many of whom were closely related to the Sindhi founder and medium Lekhraj Kripalani, offer little by way of democracy, accountability and security to their followers. Many who leave, leave as empty shells.

Since the 1970s, the BKWSU has targeted Westerners who have then been used for their appeal to Indians, light skin having a higher status. The start of Brahma Kumari expansion into the West, under its current head BK Janki Kirpalani, is notable for its purchase of freehold property at the same time it was encourage its following that the end of the world was to happen (1976).

From its earliest days, the organization was willing to accept government money to assist its expansion from both within India and outside. Latterly, this has included the donation of land, properties and the negotiation of tax benefits.

Image
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:12 am

Lety's get back on topic, before the thread derails into an trainwreck of CopyPasta and bad cartoons.

I say that theophobia is irrational, because there is no obviously persuasive reason to believe that religious belief as such has any more harmful consequences than lack thereof. True, religious believers have done some horrible things in the name of God. But there is no obviously persuasive reason to believe that the body count attributable to religious belief is higher than the death toll from whatever ideology one wishes to ascribe to Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hutu Nationalists, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, or any number of other despots motivated by secular ideologies. (Yes, I know Hitchens & Co. disputes that this string of despots killed for the sake of secular ideologies, mostly by gerry-rigging the definition of “religion” to include beliefs like Nazism. But, using the same looseness of definition, I can claim Stoics, Epicureans, even diehard Rawlsians -- yes, there are such people -- among the religious believers).
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:21 am

Searcher08 wrote: True, religious believers have done some horrible things in the name of God. But there is no obviously persuasive reason to believe that the body count attributable to religious belief is higher than the death toll from whatever ideology one wishes to ascribe to Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hutu Nationalists, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, or any number of other despots motivated by secular ideologies.


Yes- all of these can be considered casualties of "faith"

And two wrongs still don't make a right.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:33 am

How does this fall under the rubric of "faith", or not?:


Coercive persuasion, or thought reform, is a coordinated technology of gradually applied, coercive influence and behavioral control. The program's originators implement this technology to profit in some way, usually politically or financially.

Usually applied in a group setting, the victims are unaware that it is their organizational "friends and allies" who are surreptitiously applying the techniques. This is effective because it keeps the victim from putting up the ego defense mechanisms we normally maintain in known adversarial situations.

The essential strategy used by the operators of these programs is to systematically select, sequence, and coordinate many coercive, anxiety, and stress producing tactics over continuous periods of time. In such a program the subject is forced to adapt in a series of tiny "invisible" steps. Each step is sufficiently small and minor so that the subject does not notice the change in themselves. They do not become aware of the hidden organizational purpose of the program until later, if ever.

Coercive persuasion acts to gradually overcome the will without convincing the judgment. The victims lose their ability to make independent decisions and exercise an informed consent. Their defenses, cognition, values, attitudes, conduct, and ability to reason have been technologically undermined.


http://www.american-buddha.com/cult.coe ... tology.htm
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:35 am

AD - there are nuts in every walk of life. Lots of rapists. Lots of child molesters. Lots of murderers...

Worse though, there are lots of people who support corrupt organizations because they have bought in to the lie that 'each of us has to get his or her own" ... that it is 'dog eat dog' ... that this is "the only chance you get, no one but you is looking out for you, you have to keep up with the Joneses..." What sort of world does that attitude build? I believe we can see the answers all around us.

Contrast it with the attitude that each thing we do has repercussions for the world and for our own happiness: Gratitude particularly is something that is completely missing in consumer culture. If consumer culture encouraged gratitude it would put itself out of business. Spiritual Faith encourages gratitude - I cannot think of a major religion wherein that isn't the case.

If we continue to vaunt supposed 'academics' who denigrate faith then more and more people are going to be easier and easier targets for consumerism and its ills. People will start to feel (and do already) that there are measurable reasons NOT to feel satisfied and NOT to feel gratitude. As I type I'm realizing that possibly the opposite of a faithful person is a perpetually dissatisfied person.

People need something to believe in, to work towards, to put their stock in... I can think of worse things than a belief that
simply being loving and courageous will reward you.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:37 am

American Dream wrote:How does this fall under the rubric of "faith", or not?:


Coercive persuasion, or thought reform, is a coordinated technology of gradually applied, coercive influence and behavioral control. The program's originators implement this technology to profit in some way, usually politically or financially.

Usually applied in a group setting, the victims are unaware that it is their organizational "friends and allies" who are surreptitiously applying the techniques. This is effective because it keeps the victim from putting up the ego defense mechanisms we normally maintain in known adversarial situations.

The essential strategy used by the operators of these programs is to systematically select, sequence, and coordinate many coercive, anxiety, and stress producing tactics over continuous periods of time. In such a program the subject is forced to adapt in a series of tiny "invisible" steps. Each step is sufficiently small and minor so that the subject does not notice the change in themselves. They do not become aware of the hidden organizational purpose of the program until later, if ever.

Coercive persuasion acts to gradually overcome the will without convincing the judgment. The victims lose their ability to make independent decisions and exercise an informed consent. Their defenses, cognition, values, attitudes, conduct, and ability to reason have been technologically undermined.


http://www.american-buddha.com/cult.coe ... tology.htm


Did you get that out of one of Edward Bernays' books?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:39 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:AD - there are nuts in every walk of life. Lots of rapists. Lots of child molesters. Lots of murderers...


...People need something to believe in, to work towards, to put their stock in... I can think of worse things than a belief that
simply being loving and courageous will reward you.


Ok- but isn't there something about "faith" itself that can be part of the problem, too?
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:41 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
American Dream wrote:How does this fall under the rubric of "faith", or not?:


Coercive persuasion, or thought reform, is a coordinated technology of gradually applied, coercive influence and behavioral control. The program's originators implement this technology to profit in some way, usually politically or financially.

Usually applied in a group setting, the victims are unaware that it is their organizational "friends and allies" who are surreptitiously applying the techniques. This is effective because it keeps the victim from putting up the ego defense mechanisms we normally maintain in known adversarial situations.

The essential strategy used by the operators of these programs is to systematically select, sequence, and coordinate many coercive, anxiety, and stress producing tactics over continuous periods of time. In such a program the subject is forced to adapt in a series of tiny "invisible" steps. Each step is sufficiently small and minor so that the subject does not notice the change in themselves. They do not become aware of the hidden organizational purpose of the program until later, if ever.

Coercive persuasion acts to gradually overcome the will without convincing the judgment. The victims lose their ability to make independent decisions and exercise an informed consent. Their defenses, cognition, values, attitudes, conduct, and ability to reason have been technologically undermined.


http://www.american-buddha.com/cult.coe ... tology.htm


Did you get that out of one of Edward Bernays' books?


The document itself explains:

This appendix was submitted in sum and substance to the California Court of Appeals, the California Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court as an appendix to existing briefs in the Lawrence Wollersheim vs. Scientology, Case No. C332027 case. Their purpose was to inform the court as to the actual history, nature, activities, and goals of Scientology as opposed to what Scientology's propaganda machine would like the court to believe.
Last edited by American Dream on Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:41 am

American Dream wrote:
Searcher08 wrote: True, religious believers have done some horrible things in the name of God. But there is no obviously persuasive reason to believe that the body count attributable to religious belief is higher than the death toll from whatever ideology one wishes to ascribe to Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hutu Nationalists, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, or any number of other despots motivated by secular ideologies.


Yes- all of these can be considered casualties of "faith"

And two wrongs still don't make a right.


You are comparing apples and pears - how can you call Stalinism / Maoism a 'faith'?

They are ideologies, albeit underpinned by a form of thinking that AFAIK you support.
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:43 am

That american-buddha.com site is very very strange
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Theophobia

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:45 am

Searcher08 wrote:
American Dream wrote:
Searcher08 wrote: True, religious believers have done some horrible things in the name of God. But there is no obviously persuasive reason to believe that the body count attributable to religious belief is higher than the death toll from whatever ideology one wishes to ascribe to Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hutu Nationalists, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, or any number of other despots motivated by secular ideologies.


Yes- all of these can be considered casualties of "faith"

And two wrongs still don't make a right.


You are comparing apples and pears - how can you call Stalinism / Maoism a 'faith'?

They are ideologies, albeit underpinned by a form of thinking that AFAIK you support.


I actually don't support any of those ideologies- not a true believer type...


I think though that they are ideologies that people have faith in to the point that they are willing to kill and die for them- not unlike what we call "religion".

Have we ever agreed upon a clear definition here of what "faith" is and is not?
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 159 guests