Do you believe in God?

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Postby JackRiddler » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:46 pm

Yes.

Life is a circle, where every organism existing supports the others in myriad ways. Also "evolution" is NOT just fight or die competition, actually a symbiotic, co-operative principle is the more important. You must not forget that when discussing "cold, material evolution" - thats a misunderstanding often portrayed in media too. Thats not true.

Even our very cells that make our bodies are symbiotic organisms - a combination of a outer cell, that has another cell inside it - the mitochondrio that produces energy from sugars - mitochondrio has its own dna that is inherited from the mother. These cells went into symbiotic relationship a very long time ago, and have lived that way ever since - in tight union that benefits both. Even we as beings are whole communes of billions of cells living in union. I dont think there is such a thing as "cold, chaotic matter" - thats also a misnomer spread by our science in its infancy presently. No research supports this - we dont even know what is "randomness" or how you could define it. Just ask any honest physicist or mathematician.


It's thoughts similar to these, for example the observation that life still acts like it's alive and possesses a form of consciousness on a molecular level, that lead to me wonder whether parts of the universe are alive on a larger scale than life on earth. I reject the God label that the human religions assign to the possible order of the universe, because the religions are obviously social constructs with social functions, and because religions usually have very little interest or curiousity in the true nature of the world -- except insofar as the natural human curiousity can be exploited on behalf of the religion. Religions and "God" are ways to close off inquiry, so I can be atheist about them and agnostic about What Is Really Going On.
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Postby FourthBase » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:42 pm

Religions and "God" are ways to close off inquiry, so I can be atheist about them and agnostic about What Is Really Going On.


Agreed.
“Joy is a current of energy in your body, like chlorophyll or sunlight,
that fills you up and makes you naturally want to do your best.” - Bill Russell
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Postby Sounder » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:45 pm

Fourthbase wrote...
The coercive power of most non-religious ideology is not as strong, religion's dogma is the strongest form of "meme" or whatever you prefer to call it. But yeah I guess in general, I feel the same way about all dogmatic groupthink.


You may more clearly see the coercive power of religious systems, but quite likely the coercive power of more modern systems of information processing remains just as pervasive, yet many (moderns) remain unconscious of it, perhaps for fear of being taken in again by 'religion'. Or God forbid, having to admit that the new way is religion also and in both cases (a fantasy of reality is being put in the place of reality), people are trying to get reality to conform to their fantasy rather than aiming to make our (fantastical)conceptions conform to reality.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Postby Penguin » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:32 am

Yeah...I was discussing some ideas one day, about a blog (http://nafeez.blogspot.com/) and one guy got totally mad because - Nafeez made spiritual and moral conjecture from the nature of reality. He said that "You cant do that! You cant make theories on right living from physical research or nature of reality! Thats politically charged!" Then he recommended I read some economic theory instead.

I went ballistic - "what the fuck, youre saying capitalist economic theory is NEUTRAL? What the hell?!? Are you really so blind?" Economic theory is religion to some, physical sciences to some, and so on..And they certainly dont notice it often times. Its just as bad as any religion. Even worse in some ways since people tend to think those beliefs are "rational".
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Postby OP ED » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:49 am

FourthBase wrote:
OP ED wrote:My position on God is flexible, it depends on how one believes creation works.

Fourthbase:

Not all organized interpersonal rites and "transmissions" are disease.

Have you seen the movie "Baraka"?

There are many types of group ritual. Not all are guilt/control/blame/rabble rousing.


I think I'd prefer to throw the baby out with the bath water, here. LOL.

Seriously, religion on a social scale...I just don't see the need.


Do what thou wilt.

However, you should still watching the frichen movie if you get the chance and haven't already.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
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Postby §ê¢rꆧ » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:59 am

I'm a Heretical Discordian; that is to say I don't take the Principia Discordia as the true word of Eris, and I sometimes indulge in hotdog buns on Fridays.

And I'm not just snarking (my new favorite Rigint word) ... Eris scratches my religious itches and stands in for, say "The Goddess." I don't need any sacred texts or traditions. To me it is intuitive that the Creator is to be identified with the feminine and not the masculine. And if there is a divine principle behind this world, it must be Chaos, looking at the state of things as they are, have been, and will be.

Hail Eris!

Funny - I found my copy of Liber Null and Psychonaut, earmarked to be given to the thriftstore. I re-read parts of it and the view of a 'chaos magician' is still the only view that makes even the smallest remote amount of sense. We all kind of make it up as we go along - some borrowing from traditional sources and organized religions, others their own fevered imagination - and I think that it is all right. It must have something to do with how we are hardwired as humans. The position of anti-theists is somewhat ridiculous, as they so strongly 'believe' that they are the only ones that are not deluded...

:x
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Postby yathrib » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:46 am

Hi, plenty I have to say on this topic, but I don't have time to say it all here. But I don't want to post and run either. ANyway, I was being intentionally provocative. The point is that I've been told since I was a tiny child that the Bible God was merciful, kind, loving, etc. but I just don't see that borne out in the actual text. To me, it is clear the Emperor has no clothes. I'm just curious how intelligent, sensible people manage to draw the picture of God Sunny detailed from the Bible. Am I missing something?

In the absence of other information, I can only conclude people are projecting the qualities they seek in a good parent, friend, etc. onto Bible God in the absence of supporting evidence.

BTW, does anyone remember the sequence in Monty Python's Meaning of Life, where the students are singing a hymn in chapel that goes something like "Please don't boil us in hot oil," etc.?
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Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:28 pm

I think "The Meaning of Life" and "Life of Brian" sum up the best that religion and philosophy offer, in one neat double feature.
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Postby dada » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:35 am

"The difference between ideas and beliefs is that ideas may be true but beliefs are always false. That may seem a monstrous thing to say, but I offer it as a definition. What separates an idea from a belief is the emotional force committed to upholding the belief. If something were really true for us, we would not have to make an effort to believe it" - Peter Carroll

"In the province of the mind, what is believed true is true, or becomes true within limits to be learned by experience and experiment." - Dr. John Lilly

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Phil K Dick

Ad Meiorum Cthulhi Gloriam
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Postby Penguin » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:05 pm

dada: Well put. I suppose thats the idea of scientific method too: Ideas will be discarded when evidence shows failures in them. Sadly thats not how it usually goes in reality :)

I think people also like to decide things, and rather not remain ambivalent about ideas. Filter down.
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The Robe

Postby NavnDansk » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:01 am

He was very wealthy. The people of Jericho feared and hated him. He had spies at every keyhole listening for some rebellious whisper. Anyone suspected of grumbling about the Government was assessed higher taxes, and if he protested, he was charged with treason. Zacchaeus had built a beautiful home on a knoll at the southern boundary of Jericho and lived like a prince. There were landscaped gardens and lagoons--and scores of servants.'

'But no friends,' surmised Marcellus.

'Neither among the rich nor the poor; but Zacchaeus did not care. He had contempt for their hatred. Well, on this day, having heard that Jesus was proceeding toward Jericho, Zacchaeus came down into the city for a glimpse of him. The waiting crowd was so dense that he abandoned his carriage and struggled through the multitude to reach a spot where he might see. A legionary, recognizing him, assisted him to climb up into the fork of a tree, though this was forbidden to anyone else. Presently Jesus came down the street with his large company, and stopped by the tree. He called to Zacchaeus, addressing him by name, though they had never met, saying, "May I dine with you to-day?"'

'And what did the people of Jericho think of that?' wondered Marcellus.

'They were indignant, of course,' said Miriam. 'And Jesus' closest friends were very unhappy. Zacchaeus had been so mean, and now Jesus had singled him out for special attention. Many said, "This Galilean is no better than the priests, who are ever truckling to the rich."'

'I suppose Zacchaeus made the most of their discomfiture,' commented Marcellus.

'He was much flattered; hurried down from the tree and swaggered proudly at Jesus' side as the procession moved on. And when they arrived at his beautiful estate, he gave orders that the multitude might enter the grounds and wait--'

'While he and his guest had dinner,' assisted Marcellus. 'They must have resented that.'

'They were deeply offended; but they waited. And saw Jesus enter the great marble house of Zacchaeus. After they had sat waiting for almost an hour, Zacchaeus came out and beckoned to the people. They scrambled to their feet and ran to hear what he might say. He was much disturbed. They could see that something had happened to him. The haughtiness and arrogance was gone from his face. Jesus stood a little way apart from him, sober and silent. The great multitude stood waiting, every man holding his breath and staring at this unfamiliar face of Zacchaeus. And then he spoke, humbly, brokenly. He had decided, he said, to give half of all he owned to feed the poor. To those whom he had defrauded, he would make abundant restitution.'

'But what had happened?' demanded Marcellus. 'What had Jesus said to him?'

Miriam shook her head.

'Nobody knows,' she murmured; then, with averted, reminiscent eyes, she added, half to herself: 'Maybe he didn't say anything at all. Perhaps he looked Zacchaeus squarely in the eyes until the man saw, reflected there, the image of the person he was meant to be.'

'That is a strange thing to say,' remarked Marcellus. 'I'm afraid I don't understand.'

'Many people had that experience,' said Miriam, softly. 'When Jesus looked directly into your eyes--' She broke off suddenly, and leaned far forward to face him at close range. 'Marcellus,' she went on, in an impressive tone lowered almost to a whisper, 'if you had ever met Jesus--face to face--and he had looked into your eyes until--until you couldn't get away--you would have no trouble believing that he could do anything--anything he pleased! If he said, "Put down your crutches!" you would put them down. If he said, "Pay back the money you have stolen!" you would pay it back.'

She closed her eyes and relaxed against the cushions. Her hand, still in his, was trembling a little.

'And if he said, "Now you may sing for joy!"' ventured Marcellus, 'you would sing?''

-------

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks04/0400561h.html#c14

'Something tells me I am going to feel quite out of place in Rome,' he confessed. 'I have been much impressed by what I have heard of your brave Galilean's teachings about human relations. They seem so reasonable, so sensible. If they become popular, we could have a new world. And, Miriam, we must have a new world! Things can't go on this way! Not very much longer!'

Miriam put down her work and gave him her full attention. She had not seen him in such a serious mood before.

'During these past few days,' he went on, 'I have had a chance to look at the world from a different angle. It wasn't that I had never stopped to think about its injustice, its waste, its tragic unhappiness. But--out here in this quiet country--I lie at night, looking up at the stars, and suddenly I recall Rome!--its greed and gluttony at the top; its poverty and degradation, growing more and more desperate all the way down to the bottom of damp dungeons and galleys and quarries. And Rome rules the world! The Emperor is a lunatic. The Prince Regent is a scoundrel. They rule the world! Their armies control the wretched lives of millions of people!' He paused, patted a damp brow, and muttered, 'Forgive me, my friend, for haranguing you.'

'Would it not be wonderful,' exclaimed Miriam, 'if Jesus were on the throne?'

'Impossible!' expostulated Marcellus.

'Maybe not,' said Miriam, quietly.

He studied her eyes, wondering if she were really serious, and was amazed at her sober sincerity.

'You can't be in earnest!' he said. 'Besides, Jesus is dead.'

'Are you sure of that?' she asked, without looking up.

'I agree that his teachings are not dead, and something should be done to carry them to as many people as can be reached!'

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks04/0400561h.html#c14


'This faith,' he declared deliberately, 'is not like a deed to a house in which one may live with full rights of possession. It is more like a kit of tools with which a man may build him a house. The tools will be worth just what he does with them. When he lays them down, they will have no value until he takes them up again.'

++++++++


Controversy

In October, 2006, Iraqi Shiite residents of Baghdad's Sadr City expressed outrage over an image of ‘Buddy Christ’ that appeared in pamphlets and posters in the area following a joint US-Iraqi operation. The posters contained the image of Buddy Christ, a forgery of a US military crest and the outline of a plan to subjugate the area. Residents protested because they believed the images were mocking the Mahdi, the prophesied redeemer of Islam.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

In Islamic eschatology the Mahdi (transliteration: Mahdi, also Mehdi; "Guided One") is the prophesied redeemer of Islam. The advent of Mahdi is not a universally accepted concept in Islam,[citation needed] and among those that accept the Mahdi there are basic differences among different sects of Muslims about the timing and nature of his advent and guidance. Most Muslims believe that the Mahdi will change the world into a perfect and just Islamic society alongside Jesus before Yaum al-Qiyamah (literally "Day of the Resurrection" or "Day of the Standing").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cara ... Thomas.jpg

Image
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Re: The Robe

Postby Penguin » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:12 am

NavnDansk wrote:
'But what had happened?' demanded Marcellus. 'What had Jesus said to him?'

Miriam shook her head.

'Nobody knows,' she murmured; then, with averted, reminiscent eyes, she added, half to herself: 'Maybe he didn't say anything at all. Perhaps he looked Zacchaeus squarely in the eyes until the man saw, reflected there, the image of the person he was meant to be.'

'That is a strange thing to say,' remarked Marcellus. 'I'm afraid I don't understand.'

'Many people had that experience,' said Miriam, softly. 'When Jesus looked directly into your eyes--'


Yeah..The look is more than just the look. The focus of attention of consciousness. Try it with someone you trust - stare each other in the eyes, without looking away, without flinching, intently, but with an open mind and searching... After a few minutes it will get bizarre, I can promise you..

Thanks for the post, Navn.
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Postby AlicetheKurious » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:33 am

NavnDansk said:

'This faith,' he declared deliberately, 'is not like a deed to a house in which one may live with full rights of possession. It is more like a kit of tools with which a man may build him a house. The tools will be worth just what he does with them. When he lays them down, they will have no value until he takes them up again.'


Wonderful.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
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Postby crikkett » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:36 am

God plays jokes on me.
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Postby DrVolin » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:22 pm

If there is an all powerful supreme being, then it and I have very different moral systems. If I was all powerful, there would be no child torture, for example.

If there is a creator who is not all powerful, then I forgive it for all the mistakes it made in its design, and with which we have to live, suffer and die, eon after eon.
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