So out of curiousity who here has a history with DU?

[stickdog99]

This is the one that convienced me of the small plane theory, and all my favorite people here too
http://www.democraticunderground.com/du ... 28856.html

Thanks, SLAD. I've been looking for that one for awhile.

[seemslikeadream]

This is the one that convienced me of the small plane theory, and all my favorite people here too
http://www.democraticunderground.com/du ... 28856.html

Thanks, SLAD. I've been looking for that one for awhile.

It was a really great time back then, lets put it here so it is not lost again. I only had 400 posts at the time you were such an inspiration to me

stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-16-03, 08:21 PM (ET)
Plane Crashes, WR Grace, Deadly Asbestos, WTC Collapse & Wellstone
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-03 AT 08:30 PM (ET)
In the recent NC plane crash, 3 WR Grace employees were killed: Joseph Spiak, general manager of specialty vermiculite (including the highly toxic asbestos containing Zonolite), Paul Stidham, director of environmental health and safety, and Richard Lyons, global health and safety manager.

From:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080400-02.htm

Although Halliburton is an enormous operation with more than 100,000 employees in 120 countries, it is a relatively small player when it comes to asbestos litigation, at least when compared with W.R. Grace & Co., GAF and the Johns Manville Corp. Nevertheless, Halliburton has spent $99 million to settle or dispose of 129,650 asbestos suits, according to company records.

From:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/12/192330/380

WR Grace Asbestos containing insulation was used at the World Trade Center (WTC). James Cintani stated that Grace Vermiculite did not contain asbestos. Unfortunately this was not true this material was 2-5 percent asbestos. 100,000 80 pound bags of this vermiculite was used in the WTC. In addition 9,150 pounds of MonoKote 3 was used at the WTC. Monokote 3 was about 20 percent asbestos. Therefore in total about 201,183 pounds of pure asbestos fiber from Grace was used in the WTC.

From:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... 9C006CC522

White House budget office thwarts EPA warning on asbestos-laced insulation

BY ANDREW SCHNEIDER
Of the Post-Dispatch

The Environmental Protection Agency was on the verge of warning millions of Americans that their attics and walls might contain asbestos-contaminated insulation. But, at the last minute, the White House intervened, and the warning has never been issued.

The announcement to warn the public was expected in April. It was to accompany a declaration by the EPA of a public health emergency in Libby, Mont. In that town near the Canadian border, ore from a vermiculite mine was contaminated with an extremely lethal asbestos fiber called tremolite that has killed or sickened thousands of miners and their families. Ore from the Libby mine was shipped across the nation and around the world, ending up in insulation called Zonolite that was used in millions of homes, businesses and schools across America.

Zonolite insulation was sold throughout North America from the 1940s through the 1990s. Almost all of the vermiculite used in the insulation came from the Libby mine, last owned by W.R. Grace & Co.

Interviews and documents show that just days before the EPA was set to make the declaration, the plan was thwarted by the White House Office of Management and Budget, which had been told of the proposal months earlier.

Former EPA administrator William Ruckelshaus, who worked for Presidents Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, called the decision not to notify homeowners of the dangers posed by Zonolite insulation "the wrong thing to do." "When the government comes across this kind of information and doesn't tell people about it, I just think it's wrong, unconscionable, not to do that," he said. " What right does the government have to conceal these dangers? It just doesn't make sense."

The question about what to do about Zonolite insulation was not the only asbestos-related issue in which the White House intervened. In January, in an internal EPA report on problems with the agency's much-criticized response to the terrorist attacks in New York City, a section on "lessons learned" said there was a need to release public health and emergency information without having it reviewed and delayed by the White House."

The EPA's files are filled with studies documenting the toxicity of tremolite, how even minor disruptions of the material by moving boxes, sweeping the floor or doing repairs in attics can generate asbestos fibers. Most of those who have studied the needle-sharp tremolite fibers in the Libby ore consider them far more dangerous than other asbestos fibers. In October, the EPA team leading the cleanup of lower Manhattan after the attacks of Sept. 11 went to Libby to meet with Peronard and his crew. The EPA had reversed an early decision and announced that it would be cleaning asbestos from city apartments. (NOTE: THIS STUFF WAS IN THE WTC TOWERS!!!)

Peronard told the visitors from New York just how dangerous tremolite is. He talked about the hands-on research in Libby of Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a pulmonologist who had worked for NASA and the Air Force on earlier projects before moving to Spokane, Wash. "Whitehouse's research on the people here gave us our first solid lead of how bad this tremolite is," Peronard said.

Whitehouse has not only treated 500 people from Libby who are sick and dying from exposure to tremolite. The chest specialist also has almost 300 patients from Washington shipyards and the Hanford, Wash., nuclear facility who are suffering health effects from exposure to the more prevalent chrysotile asbestos. Comparing the two groups, Whitehouse has demonstrated that the tremolite from Libby is 10 times as carcinogenic as chrysotile and probably 100 times more likely to produce mesothelioma than chrysotile.

(Please read. There's much, much more here.)

From:

http://www.msnbc.com/local/pisea/102011.asp?cp1=1

Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings

By ROBERT MCCLURE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

Dec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign. Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials.

Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite. "I just find it astounding that when this kind of information is available that can save people's lives, that this administration has decided to keep that secret and not let people know," Murray said. "Here's a health risk we can do something about."

Murray's co-sponsor, Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., died in October in a plane crash.

W.R. Grace says the insulation is safe, and wrote a letter to the EPA in April insisting that no health warnings are necessary.

In addition to its use in insulation, the brownish-pink vermiculite was contained in garden products, cement mixtures and many other products. One of those products was as fireproofing in ceiling tiles used widely in schools and federal office buildings. Helping manufacture those tiles as a side job while in college likely gave Brian Harvey of Marysville mesothelioma, a disease caused only by exposure to asbestos.

Harvey criticized the Bush administration's decision to pull the public health warning. "I have a real problem with that," Harvey said. "That I consider unforgivable."

"At the top levels of the Bush administration, they are maintaining this cloak of secrecy that I can't imagine the people who I've worked with at the EPA are very happy about," Murray said. "Hopefully, the public will start crying out for Congress and the administration to do something about this."

(more)


party_line (2235 posts)
Jan-16-03, 08:50 PM (ET)
1. All that asbestos was turned to ash?
It might be interesting to know what becomes of the properties of asbestos when it is incinerated.



stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-16-03, 08:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #1
2. It wasn't all turned to ash.
Most was pulverized into dust, and that's its most lethal form, by far.


party_line (2235 posts)
Jan-16-03, 09:03 PM (ET)
Reply to post #2
4. Hasn't the EPA been doing tests?
Aren't several agencies doing air quality tests? This would show up, don't you think? With so much of it, you would think that the levels would be detectable.

stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-16-03, 09:19 PM (ET)
Reply to post #4
6. Read The Article.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... 9C006CC522
The question about what to do about Zonolite insulation was not the only asbestos-related issue in which the White House intervened. In January, in an internal EPA report on problems with the agency's much-criticized response to the terrorist attacks in New York City, a section on "lessons learned" said there was a need to release public health and emergency information without having it reviewed and delayed by the White House. "We cannot delay releasing important public health information," said the report. "The political consequences of delaying information are greater than the benefit of centralized information management."

It was the White House budget office's Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs that derailed the Libby declaration. The regulatory affairs office is headed by John Graham, who formerly ran the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. His appointment last year was denounced by environmental, health and public advocacy groups, who claimed his ties to industry were too strong. Graham passes judgment over all major national health, safety and environmental standards.

Thirty physicians, 10 of them from Harvard, according to The Washington Post, wrote the committee asking that Graham not be confirmed because of "a persistent pattern of conflict of interest, of obscuring and minimizing dangers to human health with questionable cost-benefit analyses, and of hostility to governmental regulation in general."

FAA Head Whitman, Horinko and some members of their top staff were said to have been outraged at the White House intervention. "It was like a gut shot," said one of those senior staffers involved in the decision. "It wasn't that they ordered us not to make the declaration, they just really, really strongly suggested against it. Really strongly. There was no choice left."

She and other staff members said Whitman was personally interested in Libby and the national problems spawned by its asbestos-tainted ore. The EPA's inspector general had reported that the agency hadn't taken action more than two decades earlier when it had proof that the people of Libby and those using asbestos-tainted Zonolite products were in danger. Whitman went to Libby in early September 2001 and promised the people it would never happen again. "We want everyone who comes in contact with vermiculite from homeowners to handymen to have the information to protect themselves and their families," Whitman promised.

A government analysis of shipping records from W.R. Grace show that at least 15.6 billion pounds of vermiculite ore was shipped from Libby to 750 plants and factories throughout North America.

In a confidential memo dated March 28, an EPA official said the declaration was tentatively set for April 5. But the declaration never came. Instead, Superfund boss Horinko on May 9 quietly ordered that asbestos be removed from contaminated homes in Libby. There was no national warning of potential dangers from Zonolite. And there was no promise of long-term medical care for Libby's ill and dying.

The EPA's files are filled with studies documenting the toxicity of tremolite, how even minor disruptions of the material by moving boxes, sweeping the floor or doing repairs in attics can generate asbestos fibers. Most of those who have studied the needle-sharp tremolite fibers in the Libby ore consider them far more dangerous than other asbestos fibers.

In October, the EPA team leading the cleanup of lower Manhattan after the attacks of Sept. 11 went to Libby to meet with Peronard and his crew. The EPA had reversed an early decision and announced that it would be cleaning asbestos from city apartments. Peronard told the visitors from New York just how dangerous tremolite is. He talked about the hands-on research in Libby of Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a pulmonologist who had worked for NASA and the Air Force on earlier projects before moving to Spokane, Wash. "Whitehouse's research on the people here gave us our first solid lead of how bad this tremolite is," Peronard said.

Whitehouse has not only treated 500 people from Libby who are sick and dying from exposure to tremolite. The chest specialist also has almost 300 patients from Washington shipyards and the Hanford, Wash., nuclear facility who are suffering health effects from exposure to the more prevalent chrysotile asbestos. Comparing the two groups, Whitehouse has demonstrated that the tremolite from Libby is 10 times as carcinogenic as chrysotile and probably 100 times more likely to produce mesothelioma than chrysotile.




seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:20 AM (ET)
Reply to post #6
14. After everything I have read lately
this just pulls it all together and makes me truely sick to my stomach. With tears in my eyes I read your post over again, stickdog. How can anyone not believe with this evidence that there are some very dangerous games being played out. Wellstone was murdered no doubt and now a few more. Will there ever be justice?


stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-16-03, 10:44 PM (ET)
Reply to post #4
7. More for those who like breathing asbestos.
http://www.labournet.net/world/0201/asbest1.html
WTC asbestos horror from Montana vermiculite mine

Report by Andrew Schneider
St. Louis Post-Dispatch
First Published: 01/13/02

Mining town in Montana endured the horrors of disease from asbestos

LIBBY, Mont. Much of the asbestos-tainted vermiculite that spewed from the collapsing World Trade Center was dug from a mine in the Cabinet Mountains above this picturesque Kootenai River town. And in Libby, as in New York, environmental and health officials failed to disclose just how dangerous the mineral could be.

Miners digging vermiculite ore at the now-closed W. R. Grace Zonolite mine in Libby breathed dust containing asbestos fibers, then carried it home on their clothes to their wives and children. Trucks carrying the dust spread it throughout the town, and trains hauled the potentially lethal cargo to almost 300 towns across the nation.

The company knew it was deadly. But it did not require miners to wear respirators. Federal and state officials knew the dangers, but they looked the other way. Until, that is, the death toll began to climb.

So far, hundreds of miners and their relatives have succumbed to the diseases caused by the asbestos fibers that painfully destroyed their lungs. Hundreds more are clinging to a torturous life, sucking air from portable oxygen bottles. And the federal government says its testing has found signs of the disease in thousands more who have been examined.

EPA and federal health investigators have been virtually living in this tiny town in the western corner of Montana just below the Canadian border since November 1999. Most arrived three days after the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported the deaths and contamination. They have studied the way asbestos kills - up close and far too personal. Their findings make suspect many of the absolute statements the government is making in playing down the hazards those living in lower Manhattan face from asbestos.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... os14.shtml

NYC under an asbestos cloud

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER
Monday, January 14, 2002
By ANDREW SCHNEIDER
©2002 ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

Federal and state officials have grossly underestimated the number of people in lower Manhattan who are at risk of lethal asbestos-related disease because of the collapse of the World Trade Center, independent experts say.

Evaluations by teams of leading asbestos researchers show the increased risk to people who live, work or study in homes or offices that have not been properly decontaminated could be as high as one additional cancer death for every 10 people exposed.

These figures come as leading government officials continue to insist that there is no long-term health risk to those living and working near ground zero from the dust of hundreds of thousands of tons of asbestos-containing products used in the floors, walls, ceilings and steel frame of the twin towers.

"I am glad to reassure New Yorkers ... that their air is safe," Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Christine Whitman said a week after the attacks.

When the World Trade Center went down, the EPA and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration rushed teams to the site. They have gathered thousands of samples of the dust that blanketed lower Manhattan, but they used 20-year-old methods for collecting and counting asbestos fibers to assess the health risks. The agencies and their state counterparts said only low levels of asbestos were found in the air outside. "The public faces little or no danger from asbestos," numerous agency heads echoed.

Civilian scientists and physicians hired by unions, tenant groups, contractors and New York political leaders found just the opposite. Taking hundreds of samples, many inside apartments, offices and condos, these experts used the newest electron microscope technology and fiber-counting protocols. They found far more asbestos fibers than did government investigators. These private experts -- all regularly used by the government as consultants -- found levels in the dwellings that alarmed many assessing the health risk faced by New Yorkers.

"If people continue living and working in places that still have dust in the carpets, furniture, drapes and heating and cooling system, these fibers will continue to be resuspended," Jenkins explained. "The elevated risk could be from around one in a thousand extra cancers to maybe as high as one in 10."

Four other federal health experts -- two toxicologists, an epidemiologist and a physician -- from the EPA and the Centers for Disease Control, have studied the data gathered by Chatfield, Kominsky and a team headed by Hugh Granger of HP Environmental in Virginia. They agreed with Jenkins' interpretation of the data.


http://www.asbestosnetwork.com/news/nw_ ... yc_wtc.htm

Asbestos Remains a Problem Near Trade Center

NEW YORK, NY February 1, 2002 Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) ombudsman Robert Martin recently opened an investigation into how the agency has handled air quality concerns in the World Trade Center area since the September 11 terrorist attacks. The study will concentrate on the type of testing performed and the EPA procedures for informing the public about levels of asbestos and other toxic substances.

Various testing laboratories hired by neighborhood tenants, labor groups, and contractors have found elevated levels of asbestos in apartments and offices, according to news sources (Seattle Post-Intelligencer, January 14, 2002; Los Angeles Times, January 18, 2002). However, EPA administrator Christie Whitman and many New York City officials have repeatedly assured Lower Manhattan residents that their community is safe. A senior EPA scientist, Cate Jenkins, thinks otherwise. The asbestos contamination in Lower Manhattan, up to seven blocks away from Ground Zero, is comparable or higher than that found in Libby, Montana, a designated Superfund site, she states in a recent report.


http://landofpuregold.com/truth38.htm

A Red Flag on Air Tests at WTC
By Juan Gonzalez, Daily News, March 21, 2002

In the days after Sept. 11, EPA officials used standards to determine dangerous asbestos contamination that were never intended to measure health risks, according to a new 43-page memo by a dissident Environmental Protection Agency scientist.

Cate Jenkins, a 22-year veteran with the agency's Hazardous Waste Identification Division in Washington, charged that the agency "misrepresented safety levels and standards for asbestos" and failed to accurately detect possible health risks to the public.

Jenkins first criticized her agency's handling of the World Trade Center disaster in late November, arguing that EPA officials effectively "waived" federal asbestos guidelines by endorsing lenient cleanup methods.

In the days after Sept. 11, federal officials repeatedly referred to two "standards," one for asbestos in dust and debris and another for asbestos fibers in air. For dust and debris, the agency standard was 1% asbestos content. For air, it was usually 70 asbestos fibers per square millimeter of a testing filter. The "EPA has performed 62 dust sample analyses for the presence of asbestos and other substances. Most dust samples fall below EPA's definition of asbestos- containing material <1% asbestos>," EPA Administrator Christie Whitman announced Sept. 18.

Whitman was correct about one thing. Most dust samples were below the 1% standard, but a significant portion were not. Around 35% of those taken in the first few days were above 1%. But as Jenkins explains in her memo, federal regulations never meant the 1% figure to be considered a health standard or even to be applied to measure dust.

"She's absolutely correct, this is not a health-based standard," said Joel Shufrot, the executive director of the New York Committee for Occupational Safety and Health. "People exposed to 1% or less can have significant exposure with adverse health impacts," he said.


seventhson (1167 posts)
Jan-16-03, 09:05 PM (ET)
Reply to post #1
5. So - the three MAIN witnesses who could nail Grace died in the crash.
Engine failure? Power died out. Unexplained crash? Three dead witnesses?
Wellstoned.

If these guys had ratted on what Grace knew about the dangers to New Yorkers from the WTC asbestos (which I inhaled on my visit to the tower site) then there would be hell (and maybe billions in damages) to pay.

And Bush is covering for them.


Grace has ties to the Skulls/BFEE too. They are the company Travolta fought in "A Civil Action". I knew a Grace heir who went to Yale. He once told me "we're all guilty". I told him "Not me."

Once again. Disgusting and VERY expensive if these guys had talked.

Remember when the plane went down mysteriously? I asked who the passengers were.

Brilliant reporting.

EMPWeapons again?

Wellstoned.


“I DON'T KNOW WHETHER I WAS TARGETED, BUT I certainly know that human rights activists are targeted,”“It’s a small story that tells the larger story of what’s happening..." THE LATE SENATOR PAUL WELLSTONE commenting on reports that he was the target of an assassination attempt in December 2000.



patcox2 (745 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:35 AM (ET)
Reply to post #5
17. The plane never lost power.
And it happened in broad daylight at an airport with hundreds of witnesses, and there was a black box and its been recovered. You are not as free to speculate wildly in such circumstances. Its easy enough to beleive the plane was sabotaged, as all the evidence so far in fact points to a faulty repair to the hroizontal stabilizer trim tab. Faulty repair? Maybe faulty on purpose?
Thats so much more easy to believe than your chupacabra theory.



stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-17-03, 04:23 PM (ET)
Reply to post #17
21. I must agree.
This looks more like a message than anything. Killing these guys was probably second to simply sending them (and others?) a message that accidents can and do happen.


seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-20-03, 10:33 AM (ET)
Reply to post #5
50. Yes who were those employees
what did they know and what papers were they carrying that are now gone forever. Only the very people that could blow the lid off the biggest cancer causing conspiracy ever! Wellstone was murdered trying to uncover it. Watch Out Pat Murry!



nu_duer (413 posts)
Jan-16-03, 08:59 PM (ET)
3. Man. wtf is going on here?
Lotta connections and questions here.
And the smear of Murray about her bin Laden commments - that coincided as well, didn't it? Guess she wouldn't get on a small plane.

I would love to see some investigative reporting from some mainstream press on this.

This looks like big, big stuff here.

Thanks.


ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts)
Jan-17-03, 09:55 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
27. send link to this thread to GREG PALAST!



Sophree (267 posts)
Jan-19-03, 04:36 PM (ET)
Reply to post #3
45. I fear for Patty Murray's safety
She should avoid small planes at all costs.
Apparently, 'conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth.- Gore Vidal


JohnyCanuck (482 posts)
Jan-16-03, 11:18 PM (ET)
8. It's all ok folks
as any coincidence theorists will explain, it's all a BIG F**KING COINCIDENCE. Move along now, nothing to see here. You're holding up traffic.

JohnyCanuck

Proud founding member of Canadian Chapter - Cynthia's Grassy Knoll Society.


Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-17-03, 01:14 AM (ET)
9. OMG OMG OMG!! WHOAH!
That was just even more added reason to go after Wellstone



goforit (741 posts)
Jan-17-03, 01:22 AM (ET)
10. OMG!!! Who is going to arrest Cheney and Bush??????
This is just going tooo damn FAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just so damned TICKED OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We have got to bear down and do something!!!!!
These guys are getting away with Bloody murder!!!!



anamandujano (211 posts)
Jan-17-03, 07:33 AM (ET)
Reply to post #10
13. There have got to be plenty of people who
know they're at risk of having an accident. They would be smart to come forward before anything happens. Especially those on the inside who know facts.



Cronus (1285 posts)
Jan-17-03, 01:31 AM (ET)
11. Excellent work (eom)
Thanks.
"...political leaders need not trouble themselves very much with reality provided that their performances consistently generate a sense of versimilitude." — Neil Postman (Amusing Ourselves to Death)

Visit My Favorite Web Sites
Progressive buttons —http://brainbuttons.com/ Political Satire —http://bushspeaks.com/



seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-17-03, 06:09 AM (ET)
12. Just to make sure the morning
people don't miss this


JackRiddler (109 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:28 AM (ET)
Reply to post #12
15. kick!



Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:39 AM (ET)
Reply to post #12
18. Well I feel sorry for the People who live in Manhatten! Their Screwed!

Manhatten has truly been destroyed! Osama Bin Laudin has killed more than 3000!



loudsue (1107 posts)
Jan-17-03, 12:07 PM (ET)
Reply to post #18
20. And Bush KNEW, and Bush LET IT HAPPEN!
NO JETS WERE SCRAMBLED!!
FEMA HAD ARRIVED ON SEPT. 10TH!!
Just more and more amazing "coincidences"!




patcox2 (745 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:31 AM (ET)
16. The dust looked like snow falling even months after 9/11
I spent 3 days in Manhattan, midtown, in November of 2001. You could see the dust in the air, it was sparkly, like tiny crystals, and at night you could see it form halos around street lamps like tiny snowflakes.



Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-17-03, 11:41 AM (ET)
Reply to post #16
19. Pat cox it was a Death Snow!
I feel truly sorry for the people who breathed it!


stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-17-03, 04:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #19
22. Yep. No conspiracy other than this single conspiracy of silence
should be required to put this entire inhuman crew of corporate murderers behind bars.
But, of course, a program director might have an accident if this story was featured on a primetime "news" magazine. And the judge and prosecutors might have accidents if this ever came to trial.


goforit (741 posts)
Jan-17-03, 08:06 PM (ET)
Reply to post #22
23. Certainly there is something we can do before more get murdered
My god.......I can not stand sitting here typing away knowing that we have these premeditative murders happenning as we
talk. Some how we have got to find a reliable connection
that can resolve this serious problem.



stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-17-03, 08:59 PM (ET)
24. More on the destination of the three W.R. Grace & Co. victims
From: http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/0 ... 834140.htm
Crash ends promising lives in an instant
By Liv Osby
HEALTH WRITER
losby@greenvillenews.com

Many were just starting their lives, like the two Clemson University graduate students, the Bob Jones University co-ed and the young father traveling with his adolescent daughter. Others, including the North Carolina computer salesman with two small children at home and three employees of W.R. Grace & Co., were just making a living when their US Airways plane flipped, crashed and burst into flames moments after takeoff Wednesday morning from Charlotte.

W.R. Grace & Co. veteran Richard Lyons was global health and safety manager at Grace Performance Chemicals in Cambridge, Mass. Lyons, 56, joined the company in 1969. Married with two children, he lived in Lynnfield, Mass.

Joseph Spiak, 46, also worked at the Cambridge site as general manager for specialty vermiculite (note: this includes the highly toxic, widely distributed brand of asbestos contaminated vermiculite marketed under the W.R. Grace brand name of Zonolite). A resident of Acton, Mass., he had been with Grace since 1981 and occasionally visited its Spartanburg facilities. He was married with two children.

Paul Stidham was a newcomer to the company, joining last July as director of environment health and safety for Grace's corporate headquarters in Columbia, Md. He and his wife, Dora, and their two young children made their home in Howard County, Va.

All three were on their way to a Grace mining plant in Enoree, S.C. "We are devastated and stunned by this tragic loss," said Grace CEO Paul Norris.


From: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/gard31.shtml

Asbestos found in many common garden products

EPA tests to determine health risks

Friday, March 31, 2000

By ANDREW SCHNEIDER
and CAROL SMITH
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTERS

2000 Seattle Post-Intelligencer. All rights reserved.

Federal investigators have found potentially lethal forms of asbestos in several lawn and garden products that contain vermiculite, a mineral used in hundreds of such products nationwide. "I think it is cause for concern," said Dr. Christine Oliver, assistant clinical professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, who has about 600 patients with asbestos-caused diseases. "There is no safe level of asbestos exposure," she said.

The EPA findings could explain some of the so-called spontaneous tumors that arise in people who have no known exposure to asbestos, Oliver said. "My contention is they are not arising spontaneously and these data support that," she said. "Who would have known asbestos was in these products?"

After the first results came in, the investigators repeated the tests and confirmed the findings. The types of asbestos found were fibrous actinolite and tremolite, both classified as carcinogens by several government agencies.

Concern about the safety of vermiculite was sparked by Seattle Post-Intelligencer stories in November about a now-closed W.R. Grace & Co. mine in Libby, Mont., where more than 300 miners and their family members contracted fatal diseases including asbestosis, cancer and mesothelioma because of their exposure to tremolite asbestos fibers in the vermiculite ore.

The EPA's results confirm similar tests of several brands of potting soil, soil enhancers and vermiculite conducted by the P-I from December through March as part of the newspaper's ongoing investigation of asbestos dangers in the United States. "We got numerous calls from citizens who had read about the deaths in Libby and asked if there was asbestos in garden products, will they be exposed to it and will they become sick from it," McDermott says. "Yes, there is asbestos in some of the products. And, yes, in using the product the way many people do, asbestos can be released.

Horticultural industry analysts estimate that at least 65 local, regional and national companies produce more then 375 lawn and garden products containing vermiculite. The world's largest vermiculite mine is in the northeastern corner of South Africa. Some U.S. companies buy it, but many say they purchase ore from the Grace mine in Enoree, S.C., or from Virginia Vermiculite's mines, owned by Robert Sansom, in Louisa, Va., and near Enoree.

Officials at the EPA regions responsible for Virginia and South Carolina said there was no indication that the agency had inspected any of the vermiculite mines in recent years. EPA studies on vermiculite mines were done in 1981, 1982 and 1991. The studies showed the presence of asbestos at Grace's Enoree mine, but at levels far lower than those at Libby.

"Asbestos is a toxic substance and if it's in commercial products, we have an obligation to look as far back as it takes, to get to the bottom of where it's coming from," says John Melone, EPA director of national programs, chemical division. "When that product leaves the mine, someone is putting it into commerce. Whoever that someone is, whether they own the mine or not, that person is responsible for knowing what is in the product. And we have a right to ask for that information."


Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-17-03, 09:44 PM (ET)
Reply to post #24
25. So this stuff is everywhere!

Wow this is soo sad!



stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-18-03, 01:00 AM (ET)
Reply to post #25
31. Dude, they are still makings billions selling it!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-03 AT 01:14 AM (ET)
It's in everything from topsoil to insulation to fireproofing paint to door cores to auto gaskets to fertilizer to animal feed to concrete to bricks to plaster to pool construction materials to roofing.

They even sell it to--get this--clean up asbestos and other toxic waste!

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/prodline.cfm?did=10

How does this sound to you?

Recognized worldwide for their in-place performance and superior durability, Monokote products can be found in all types of buildings including high-rise construction, manufacturing facilities, schools, hospitals and sports facilities.

above from: http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/prodline.cfm?did=3


ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts)
Jan-17-03, 09:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #24
26. Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings....
and murray was smeared in the media about her osama comments to silence her and make her look like a loop...murray was mckinneytized in the hopes of discrediting her.
someone else posted this a few weeks ago.....
Amazing , Grace airline travel gets riskier and riskier for certain folks...

You remember this article:
<snip>

Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings
By ROBERT MCCLURE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Dec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign.

Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials.
Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite.

In Washington alone, at least 53,505 homes contain Zonolite insulation, according to lawyers who filed a class-action suit seeking to force W.R. Grace & Co., the Libby vermiculite mine's last owner, to warn homeowners of the danger.

Now, look at who was on that plane that crashed in North Carolina:

http://www.islandpacket.com/news/state/ ... 9786c.html

Paul Stidham, 46, of Dayton, Md., was traveling on business for his employer, W.R. Grace of Columbia, Md.Stidham, who was the director of environment health and safety at Grace's corporate headquarters, was one of three Grace workers on the flight. The other two, 56-year-old Richard Lyons and 46-year-old Joseph Spiak of Boston, were employees of Grace Performance Chemicals in Cambridge, Mass.

Wow.....gee, it sure seems like a coincidence. Heck, the news media hasn't connected those dots. Nothing to see, please move along. The US government would never participate in targetted assassinations of "potential problems"...

I suspected something like this. Just like the Choicepoint exec who died in a plane crash shortly after the florida felon purge was going to be examined.

One of the other 2 Grace employees was director of the very area of environment and safety that would have been involved in the asbestos case.

Did you know that Murray's asbestos education bill, introduced in July, was co-sponsered by Paul Wellstone? Seriously. Who knows how or if ANYTHING connects?


JohnyCanuck (482 posts)
Jan-17-03, 10:00 PM (ET)
28. Does anyone at DU know any NYC firefighters?
Or for that matter any other workers who took part in the rescue efforts or the cleanup of the WTC. If so they need to know about this. One way to help get this info out is to forward it to the people who are most likely to be affected. It's likely that these emergency workers would start showing symptoms or having lung problems first as they probably had the most exposure. For a start they should be warned of the possible medical problems they might run into so they don't pussy foot around about getting medical attention if they start developing any symptoms of lung problems.
JohnyCanuck





ElsewheresDaughter (367 posts)
Jan-17-03, 10:29 PM (ET)
Reply to post #28
30. my husband is a hoboken firefighter and
i know 7 NYC firefighters and believe me this will be in thier hands tomorrow!
btw hoboken is directly across the hudson river from the WTC
this is most disturbing...will this bush nightmare ever end?

Eloriel (4958 posts)
Jan-17-03, 10:11 PM (ET)
29. Stickdog, you are amazing
Simply amazing. Kudos.
Ya know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see someone get to talk to some of the people under the 3 who were killed, or their wives/family, or both.

Do you feel up to writing all this up for publication? If not, how about passing it on to someone like Greg Palast, or someone at MoJo? Surely someone somewhere can do something with this. Ya think?

Eloriel

Bush is neither a uniter nor a divider. He's a destroyer.




Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-18-03, 01:04 AM (ET)
Reply to post #29
32. i agree ya need to show this to someone! Its Awesome!
Awesome Awesome!



goforit (741 posts)
Jan-18-03, 01:09 AM (ET)
Reply to post #29
33. Greg Palast is a great idea!! On the NY firemen call 1411 for info
and I'm sure they would find someone in Ny who would listen.
I am so proud of all of you digging your heals in.
Keep up the great work!!!




stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-18-03, 12:32 PM (ET)
34. The Sordid History of WR Grace and the Lilly, MT Asbestos Mine
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/asbestos/chronology.shtml



Despondent (51 posts)
Jan-18-03, 03:28 PM (ET)
Reply to post #34
35. Eliott Spitzer
NY'S Attorney General is someone you could forward this info to he seems to be on our side



9215 (1541 posts)
Jan-19-03, 04:06 PM (ET)
Reply to post #34
42. Question
First I want to thank your for this fantastic work.
I think you meant "Libby" not "Lilly" in your post title. The weird thing is that ex Eli Lilly head Mitch Daniels is Bush's OMB boy that Patty Murray sent a letter to on the asbestos warning being pulled. When I saw your post title I almost crapped me drawers thinking there was a link between Eli Lilly and WR Grace.

Empoweryour Democrat representative. Send them important info on a topic. They will listen.

Easy way to send your three national representatives e-mail with one letter:
www.congress.org.






Insider (2155 posts)
Jan-18-03, 04:35 PM (ET)
36. hypothetical
for whatever reason, the towers are identified as a hazard (materials, construction, outdated, whatever).
would the issue ever see the light of day?
if so, what methods would be considered for destruction?
how would the public (NY city, NY state, USA, world) handle plans to bring down the towers? what would be the response?



seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-19-03, 04:24 PM (ET)
Reply to post #36
43. I have to tell you that's guite the
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-03 AT 04:38 PM (ET)
story you present. Sure does tie everything and I mean everything together! You know the more I think about it, God forgive them for they know not what they do, I believe you and stickdog have put it out there, how many will take note.





stickdog (1116 posts)
Jan-19-03, 02:24 AM (ET)
37. Wellstone vs. Corporate Asbestos Murderers
From:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Zd ... estos.html
June 18, 2002

Wellstone, Murray, Dayton Introduce Bill to Ban Asbestos

Joined At Press Conference By Susan Vento, Widow of Congressman Bruce Vento

(Washington, D.C.) - Senator Paul Wellstone (D-MN) today joined Senators Patty Murray (D-WA) and Mark Dayton (D-MN) in introducing the Ban Asbestos In America Act of 2002 that would ban the 6 regulated forms of asbestos, require additional research into the risks associated with asbestos, and initiate a public information campaign increase awareness of the dangers posed by products that contain asbestos in homes and workplace

"As chair of the subcommittee with jurisdictional responsibility for protecting worker health and safety, I am extremely concerned about the problems of asbestos contamination in the workplace," Wellstone said. "I also know first-hand, from the experience in my home state of Minnesota, how far the tentacles of asbestos contamination can reach. Thousands of residents in Minneapolis are potentially at risk from a facility that processed asbestos-laden vermiculite from the Grace Mine in Libby, Montana. And unfortunately this is only one of the many sites around the country experiencing this dreadful contamination."

Today, asbestos is everywhere -- in brake pads, roofing shingles, insulation, corrugated paper and fire protection. Despite the fact that most Americans believe that we have we have banned asbestos, this deadly substance remains in products we use everyday. The health effects of asbestos can take up to 40 years to set in, but the consequences of asbestos exposure are often deadly. Among its many victims, Minnesota Congressman Bruce Vento (D-MN) died of mesothelioma from exposure to asbestos.

"Asbestos contamination is not a thing of the past - far from it. It is killing and injuring countless numbers of people," Wellstone said. "We must do everything we can to end this devastating problem. While many recognize asbestos as a contaminant, in fact a carcinogen, I believe the American public would be shocked to know that asbestos is still being added to products on purpose."


From:
http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:uB ... bestos.htm

April 18, 2000

Wellstone Stands With Steelworkers in Opposing Asbestos Legislation

Bills Before Congress Would Rob Victims of Their Basic Rights

(Eveleth, MN) --Senator Paul Wellstone, joining steelworkers in Eveleth today, announced his opposition to a proposed settlement which would prevent workers afflicted with asbestos-related illnesses from collecting the compensation they deserve. Wellstone said legislation before Congress, if passed, would deprive workers of their basic right to receive just compensation for illnesses they unknowingly contracted while working in factories polluted with asbestos.

"This legislation is a slap in the face to steelworkers and other Minnesotans who struggle to put a roof over their families' heads and put food on the table; never mind pay high medical bills for diseases they contracted for doing nothing more than putting in an honest day's work," Wellstone said. "It would rob them of their right to just compensation, it would rob them of their right to see justice served on those responsible for making them sick, and it would rob them of their right to get their lives back on track. I will do everything I can to honor the labor of these workers, and friends like Bruce Vento, by fighting this legislation in the Senate."



seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-19-03, 06:24 AM (ET)
Reply to post #37
38. Thanks again stickdog
I think you've found the real reason we don't have Paul around anymore.



opus460 (12 posts)
Jan-19-03, 02:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #37
39. Bill number S.2641
I think we should all write to our Senators and ask the status of bill # S.2641 (Ban Asbestos in America Act of 2002). Seems they're just trying to let this die in a committee.




Nottingham (1293 posts)
Jan-19-03, 02:43 PM (ET)
Reply to post #39
40. Hopefully the Bill didn't die like its Co Sponsor!
This is worse than Dioxin!





seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-19-03, 03:07 PM (ET)
Reply to post #39
41. Thanks for the info opus460
good idea. I was wondering who to send this stuff to. A hand written note along with a copy of what stickdog has posted here. A top 20 list of people that just might take it to heart if they only knew. Any suggestions? Maybe Grace employees families? Wellstone's family? Maybe they already know.




opus460 (12 posts)
Jan-19-03, 04:35 PM (ET)
Reply to post #41
44. Show me the money!!!
Robert M. Tarola, Senior VP and CFO, W.R. Grace
$1000 to Republican Senatorial Committee 1/22/01
Paul M. Norris, Chairman, President, CEO, W.R. Grace
$5000 to Republican National Committee 10/10/2000
$3000 to American Chemistry Council 3/6/2001
$5000 to American Chemistry Council 4/16/2002
$1000 to American Chemistry Council 2/22/2000
$500 to GW Bush 6/4/1999

There could be more, just don't have the time to look it all up. Another interesting angle would be to look for any connections with Skull & Bone Society.

Also looks to be strong links with the American Chemistry Council and Homeland Security.



seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-19-03, 04:49 PM (ET)
Reply to post #44
46. opus460 have you read insiders post 36
what do you think, interesting huh?




reprobate (1755 posts)
Jan-19-03, 05:11 PM (ET)
Reply to post #46
47. Seemslikeadream

I'm a , but this seems like a stretch. Could you put it together for me? My mind keeps hitting walls on this.
George Washington on crossing the delaware: "Move your fat ass, Henry. And do it slowly so you don't swamp the boat."
As told by Gen. Henry "Ox" Knox.




seemslikeadream (441 posts)
Jan-19-03, 06:13 PM (ET)
Reply to post #47
48. You want me to say it outloud!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-03 AT 07:04 PM (ET)
Oh, no tooooo scary. You know though I have always been fasinated with the art of demolition. You know when buildings become useless or hazordous to peoples health and have to be imploded and all the rubble hauled away to a special dump. Maybe an EPA regulated dump for harmful materials. Somewhere safe from, lets say ground water? Maybe Insider post 36 would elaborate, that's where my nightmare started.





opus460 (12 posts)
Jan-19-03, 06:31 PM (ET)
Reply to post #48
49. Fresh Kills Landfill
Most of the WTC wreckage was taken to this landfill:
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcp/html/f ... t/1_0.html

Though I haven't heard anything regarding the environmental impact, I hope there is a study done on the lower Manhattan and surrounding areas (including where I previously lived across the Hudson in NJ) residents over the next several years/decades regarding asbestos related illnesses.

[seemslikeadream]

My recent DU history

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... _id=211881

Sweet Pea (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:04 PM
Original message
Touching History
Finally, a few days ago, I was able to finish this book on the skies above America on 9/11.
If I could recommend anything to anyone to help them understand the confusion that went on that day and the frustration in all the players that day, from the pilots in the airliners to the controllers to the F-15 and F-16 pilots who ended up on combat air patrol over our cities, it would be this book.
Those of you who are convinced a "military stand down" was issued need to read this book. Those of you who think thing were controlled from the White House need to read this book. Those of you who think instantaneous situation awareness was there but the personnel refused to act on it need to read this book.
Touching History by Lynn Spencer, who is an airline pilot herself. I picked my copy up at Borders, but it is all over the Amazons and Simon and Shusters and Barnes and Nobles.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Did she mention the military exercises going on that day?
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 06:18 PM by seemslikeadream
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?be......
It wasn't a stand down that was the problem here it was the confusion because of the exercises which just happened to be taking place that day, how convenient

SDuderstadt (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Jesus, SLAD....
Just when I think you can't possibly be more illogical, you prove me wrong. How convenient? Are you claiming the US Military planned those exercies to provide cover for the attacks? Are you? To me, this is where the "truth movement" goes off the tracks and exhibits their tendency for "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacies.
War games and military exercises take place nearly all the time, SLAD. Assuming that you could grasp that the timing was entirely coincidental or that maybe the terrorists somehow knew about the exercises and wanted to capitalize upon them, were we supposed to plead, "Please, whatever you do, we're conducting military exercises on 9/11, so give us a break and don't attack us."? Do you ever actually use your brain?'
Again, I ask. Is there ANY CT so goofy that even YOU won't embrace it? Is there?

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. sounds familiar
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 06:34 PM by seemslikeadream
Those of you who are familiar with the Instapinch know I have an ongoing, running gun battle going on with some elements of the Moonbat Left, those lunatic moronic idiots who insist 9/11 was an “inside job” or that things like a military stand-down order was issued to keep the military from “doing its job” on that day. This book dispels those crazy notions - in fact it doesn’t just dispel them, it shatters them into a million minute pieces that can be crunched under the heel of a flight boot.
Lynn Spencer has done us all a wonderful duty here - she has captured the history of that day in a superb book, a history that we cannot and should not forget.
The book is available pretty much everywhere now. I picked up my copy from the local Borders, but you can order it online at Barnes and Noble, Simon and Schuster, and Amazon, among other book stores.
A nice bio of Lynn can be found here. Not your typical airline pilot, but she writes one hell of a book.
http://instapinch.com/?p=1200
http://op-for.com/2008/06/touching_history.html
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2008/06/touching-his......

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. From the picture Sweetpea posted of himself here and the picture at that blog
That's Sweetpea.
How nice of you to bring back words he typed on his own blog. Don't you feel all sleuthtastic?

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That is so nice to know thanks!
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 06:41 PM by seemslikeadream
It's all the rage at Randi's
I hadn't seen the picture, I thought he was plagiarizing
Now it is making sense

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Again I have to thank you for explaining this to me, I would have never known
Established by combat veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on November 11, 2007, Veterans Day, VFFPAC will endorse and offer extended support through financial contributions and media assistance to Republicans, Democrats, and Independents who support victory in the Global War on Terrorism. Bottom Line: VFFPAC will support those who support victory — that is our only litmus test.
Vets for Freedom will continue to be America’s most influential voice for veterans of the Global War on Terror, and will continue to educate Americans on the importance of never surrendering to extremists. Vets for Freedom PAC will work to actively support candidates who champion our mission. We have appealed to Congress for support – now we’ll work to change Congress from the bottom up.
http://vetsforfreedom.org/about/default.aspx

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. So you have known about this for how long now?

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Just now. I've known about your anti-Semite postings for far longer.
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 07:31 PM by boloboffin
If it's a choice between a Republican and someone who's willing to post the kind of trash you've done and gotten suspended for, I'll take the Republican.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. BULLSHIT
BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You got yourself suspended for doing that, don't even try to pretend otherwise.
Everyone here knows this.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:34 PM
Original message
LIES LIES LIES LIES

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. I agree, the trash you posted here IS lies. You KNOW you did this. You KNOW IT.
Look at you. You KNOW you got tombstoned here for posting links to anti-Semite hate and only a minor uproar got you reinstated.
You really take the cake.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. How very interesting
Despite recent developments in Iraq, Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) still continues to advocate for immediate withdrawal, still has yet to meet with General Petraeus, and still insists on merely 'considering' a trip. The time for consideration is over. Senator Obama must make a commitment to seeing the success of the counterinsurgency strategy in Iraq himself.
http://vetsforfreedom.org/

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Now wait a minute are you supporting Obama for president?
Blog thoughts of a transplanted southerner, former naval flight officer, current naval reservist, newly-married father of two, right-wing reactionary and all-around adequate guy!
http://instapinch.com/

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Noticed this too, SLaD
That "right wing reactionary", in particular, caught my eye.
Sure would like to know if Sweet Pea is supporting Obama. I know Skinner has made it pretty clear that membership on this site requires support of our democratic presumptive nominee.

SidDithers (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. I'm pretty sure membership requires that you don't...
actively campaign against democratic nominees. Requiring support of the nominee might be difficult for the international DU'ers. (though we can still support him in spirit)

Sid

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. That is a good point
However, searching on the OP in GDP and other forums, I am seeing that he does not support Obama.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. One of these things is not like the others

Growing Old Disgracefully
instapundit
National Review "The Corner"
Democratic Underground
Blackfive
EjectEjectEject
Austin Bay
Little Green Footballs
Thomas Barnett
Murdoc Online
Lileks
Opinion Journal
Vodka Pundit
The Blogitude
The Wood Shed - Steve Ambrose
Neptunus Lex OP-
FOR Smell of Freedom
Chef Mojo Defense Tech
chicpilot
Steeljaw
Scribe
The Tank
http://instapinch.com/

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. How nice. You who almost got banned for posting anti-Semitic trash are now trying
to get Sweetpea banned because of his posting on another website. You can't find anything that he has posted here in support of his chosen candidate.
And you have the nerve to call others hypocrite.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Code Pink monsters

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's his opinion that he keeps to his website.
He's never posted anything like that here. You are stirring a pot of shit you will be sorry for.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. He posted his picture remember YOU told me about it
I would have never known but YOU did

YOU knew

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I went to the website YOU posted here and saw the link.
you knew full well what kind of sick trap you were pulling.

You disgust me.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. YOU DISGUST ME YOU'VE KNOWN THIS FOR HOW LONG NOW?

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I told you. I went to the website you posted here and saw the picture.
THAT'S WHEN I KNEW. You really have gone overboard here after you were shown mercy.

SDuderstadt (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. If SLAD went overboard,,,,
how could you tell?

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'd call an uncivil attack on Sweetpea like this way overboard for even her.
DU has rules. SLAD busted up several of them by doing this.
Sweetpea's been here four years. He's always kept his true politics away from DU. He's stayed within the rules. He doesn't use this website to attack the Democrats. He hasn't offered criticism of any kind against the Democrats.
In fact, by helping to weed 9/11 CT out of here, you could say he was doing this website a service.
This was an unprovoked, uncivil breech of the rules by SLAD.
If Sweetpea has to go because SLAD busted him, that would be a crying shame.
Especially because she herself was banned and received clemency.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'd call an uncivil attack on Sweetpea like this way overboard for even her.
DU has rules. SLAD busted up several of them by doing this.
Sweetpea's been here four years. He's always kept his true politics away from DU. He's stayed within the rules. He doesn't use this website to attack the Democrats. He hasn't offered criticism of any kind against the Democrats
In fact, by helping to weed 9/11 CT out of here, you could say he was doing this website a service.
This was an unprovoked, uncivil breech of the rules by SLAD.
If Sweetpea has to go because SLAD busted him, that would be a crying shame.
Especially because she herself was banned and received clemency.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT OUTED HIM NOT ME
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 08:13 PM by seemslikeadream
HE'S THE ONE THAT POSTED HIS PICTURE HERE NOT ME AND I DIDN'T EVEN SEE IT TILL YOU TOLD ME ABOUT IT

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. You are the one that posted a link to his blog and his picture saying "sounds familiar"
Even my pointing out that was his picture GAVE YOU NO PERMISSION TO THEN CONDUCT AN HUGELY UNCIVIL ATTACK ON HIM.
Oh, and by the way, maybe you need to get your story straight on why you were first tombstoned and then suspended for six days. Let me refresh your memory.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. That was BEFORE you told me who he was YOU KNEW
I THOUGHT HE WAS PLAGERIZING

Sweet Pea (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Bolo didn't know anything.....
about the Instapinch blog until you posted something. As far as I know, nobody did - and why should they? I didn't bust any DU rules with my posts, I stayed within the issues I was familiar with and stuck to the apolitical issues.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. GDP?

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I would not have known any of this if it weren't for bolo
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 08:10 PM by seemslikeadream
Thank him

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. I posted it BECAUSE IT SOUNDED JUST LIKE YOUR POST
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 08:16 PM by seemslikeadream
I THOUGHT YOU WERE PLAGERIZING
you posted your picture here and bolo told me about it

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. And then you PMed Hope and the both of you started attacking him.
Tell it to the moderators. You have stirred a pot of shit you'll be sorry about.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. That is bullcrap.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Methinks the bolo hit the nail on the head.
Coordinated assault from the both of you. I stand by it.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Well Bolo
your little mind can think what it wants.
Interesting that, given how much SLaD gets attacked in this forum, that you would speak of "coordinated assault"
Very interesting indeed.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I believe moderators can check private messages.
If they can't, I'm sure the administrators can.
Better get them erased quick! Oh, but there will be a log they can consult.
You both have stirred a pot of shit you'll be sorry about.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Please.
Pot of shit. That is pretty funny.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. These are pretty strong accusations, Bolo
I would like to see some links that support your accusations that SLaD is anti-semitic. This is a downright attempt at character assassination.
As far as the OP is concerned, he describes himself as a "right-wing reactionary". If this is an accurate description, it seems he is posting on the wrong site here.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. You know this as well. You KNOW exactly when and why SLAD was banned.
I can't believe you both are posting like this. You KNOW Lithos and undergroundrailroad know the truth. Are you scoring any points with them by posting blatant factual inaccuracies about SLAD's rescinded tombstone???

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. If the mods believed she is anti-semitic
Edited on Mon Jun-23-08 08:22 PM by Hope2006
she would not have been reinstated. Posting from some 'banned' sites is NOT the same as being anti-semitic.
I am sure you know this.
Oh, and, BTW, this was a shameful attempt to derail some valid observations in this thread.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Valid Observations? You astound me!
How does Sweet Pea's identity have anything to do with the freaking OP about the Touching History book?

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. The OP has nothing to do with his identity
But, it is his identity that is of concern.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. So you admit you're attacking him off-topic.
If his identity was truly a concern to you, you would have simply sent the link to the moderators and let them deal with it.

Instead, you both went on the attack.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I admit it
I don't want right-wingers posting on this website.
End of story.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. You should have sent your suspicions to the moderators like the rules say to do.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Really?
Then we shouldn't have read his links? He is the one who outed himself.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. His links? HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY LINKS.
There are no links in the OP.
SLAD did a search on the words and found his website with his picture right there. SHE POSTED THE LINK.
I went to the link, saw the picture, and said, "That's Sweet Pea. Huh. Sweet Pea's got a blog."
And then all of the sudden both of you are posting every single detail about him you can find.
Coordinated assault. SLAD found the site, alerted you, and you both set a trap instead of sharing what you had learned with the moderators.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. What suspicions YOU are the one that outed him not me

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. The only thing I did was spring your little trap.
I went to the blog and recognized the picture. I confirmed that was him.
And suddenly you and Hope are posting all sorts of quotes and details.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. You and SweetPea are responsible for all of this
You can not put the blame on ANYONE else
He posted his picture and you told me about it

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. "Member was previously told to avoid posting links to offensive and bigoted websites, yet continued
"Member was previously told to avoid posting links to offensive and bigoted websites, yet continued to do so."
How interesting that you are now posting all manner of links and quotes from his website, knowing the offense it will give people here at DU.
You are doing EXACTLY the same thing, but this time someone else might get the tombstone.
You learned nothing from your suspension. You are completely unrepentant. You'd do it again if you knew you could get away with it.
And this time you might.

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Oh MY
Does he link to offensive and bigoted websites? Well, he provided the link to that website that SLaD got the links from. Who is to blame here, Bolo?
SLaD wouldn't have gone there had he not provided a link.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. Another factual inaccuacy from Hope. SLAD provided the link, not Sweet Pea.
There is no link in the OP. Sorry, you are talking factual inaccuracies again.
You should be ashamed. You won't be.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. HE was plagerizing it
I thought I had caught him plagerizing YOU threw him into all of this
DON'T TRY AND BLAME ANYONE ELSE FOR THIS YOU DID IT

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. You are correct
However, why would I be ashamed? I was in error, but, the OP obviously contained enough info that SLaD was able to find the original blog. Me, I don't have that kind of skill.
Bolo, you have no grounds to lecture anyone in this forum. Anyone.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:53 PM
Original message
Now you're trying to cloud the issue, pretending like you don't know what's going on.
Hope, take your advice and dispose of it in the proper receptacle. The day I need advice from you, I'll slit my own throat, thank you.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. NO LINK IN THE OP THAT'S WHY I WENT LOOKING
FOR ONE

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Why did there need to be a link in the OP?
Those were his words. He didn't even cut and paste from his blog. He didn't even mention his blog.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. I was looking for more information about the book
That link was one of the first that popped up and it sounded way too much like his post, I thought he was PLAGERIZING.
YOU ARE THE ONE THAT OUTED HIM WITH HIS HELP BY POSTING HIS PHOTO HERE

THAT IS NOT MY FAULT

Hope2006 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. SLaD is correct
She did not know that the blog she found was, in fact, Sweet Pea's. You outed him by confirming that it was his blog (and, insulting SLaD in the process).
You outed him.

boloboffin (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. SLAD learned nothing from her suspension.

seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-23-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. GOOGLE Touching History THERE HE IS THREE TIMES ON THE FIRST PAGE
Touching History are "Dedicated to Recreating History in Miniature"Manufacturers of a wide range of wargaming and modelling products for recreating historical battles, including a gallery and series of articles on ...
www.touchinghistory.co.uk / - 2k - Cached - Similar pages

Amazon.com: Touching History: The Untold Story of the Drama That ...Amazon.com: Touching History: The Untold Story of the Drama That Unfolded in the Skies Over America on 9/11: Lynn Spencer, Joyce Bean: Books.
www.amazon.com/Touching-History-Untold- ... -America... - 173k - Cached - Similar pages

instapinch.com » Blog Archive » Touching HistoryJun 23, 2008 ... In the “just finished reading” category comes Touching Historyby Lynn Spencer. The word “riveting” is overused at times when talking about ...
instapinch.com/?p=1200 - 30k - 12 hours ago - Cached - Similar pages

Touching History WarWeb.comWarWeb.com Touching History. ... Touching History - Terrain Magazine, Touching History - Terrain Magazine. Touching History Recreating History in Miniature ...
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Touching History are "Dedicated to Recreating History in Miniature"Part of the problem has been that a lot of people think Touching History is a large company with several staff. Many do not realize that its just me and ...
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OPFOR: Touching HistoryJun 23, 2008 ... Up for a good book this summer? if you pick up Touching History by airline pilot Lynn Spencer, you won't regret it and it'll be gone in a ...
op-for.com/2008/06/touching_history.html - 3 hours ago - Similar pages

Barnes & Noble.com - Books: Touching History, by Lynn Spencer ...Touching History: The Untold Story of the Drama That Unfolded in the Skies Over America on 9/11, Spencer, Lynn Spencer, Hardcover, Book, ISBN: 1416559256, ...
search.barnesandnoble.com/Touching-History/Lynn-Spencer/e/9781416559252 - 85k - Cached - Similar pages

Victory Caucus - Blackfive: Touching HistoryJun 23, 2008 ... I just finished a book called Touching History by Lynn Spencer. It is an absolutely superb account of what the skies above America were like ...
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Tabletop Gaming News » Touching History is shutting downJun 2, 2008 ... Touching History will be closing down in order to allow the owner to concentrate on ... 3 Responses to “Touching History is shutting down” ...
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SkepticalObservor: Touching HistoryNov 21, 2005 ... Touching History. Anyone who knows me at all knows that I am a real history buff. I have waaaay too many books at home (my wife is on me to ...
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.
posted by bolo

[bks]

wow, SLAD. What a piece of shit boloboffin (once again) proves himself to be.

I hope I never get trapped in a closet. I'd hate having to keep company with all of the right-wingers in there

[stickdog99]

Oh. My. God. boloboffin is such an idiot! But it's strange, isn't it, that he can get posts deleted from DU for doing nothing more than noticing when he himself moronically outs one of his many Republican co-conspirators.

Perhaps one of these things is actually more like the others than we've been led to believe ...

[seemslikeadream]

as we've been led to believe ...

[MacCruiskeen]

From Sweet Pea's own personal blog:

Thursday, December 13th, 2007
Air America

If anyone - anyone, anywhere- wants to find out why - for whatever reason - Democrats - or progressives or the left or whatever the hell they are calling themselves these days - should not and should never be allowed to be entrusted with the defense and the national security of this nation, just listen to Air America.

Air America is, of course, the left’s answer to the conservative talk-radio juggernaut that has been in existence the last 20 years or so. Problem is, their idiotic and absolutely moronic and stultifying programming and hosts can’t pick up and keep an audience anywhere. So, they are doing 2 things - first off, the only market they can really get on and stay on is pay-radio (a Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2006 should have told them to shutter the windows and lock the door - nobody wants to listen to such crap) , specifically satellite radio (XM or Sirius) or, the only alternative is streaming on the internet. That is where most of these advanced Bush Derangement Syndrome-afflicted shows are.

Second, and if anyone has been listening to the Democrats since they took control of congress will know this, is the resurrection of the “Fairness Doctrine”, or the idea that could also be known as “We Can’t Compete With Conservative Radio On A Level Playing Field So We’ll Just Ban Them” doctrine. Oh, they’ll say its not a ban - but what else would you call a plan to force stations to provide “balanced programming” - to hell with what the marketplace supports or wants - with the end results being stations just drop ALL talk radio rather than go against many of their broadcast beliefs. Typical definition of “fair” in the Dem’s dictionary.

Now Pinch isn’t getting all wishy and unctuous and liberal, for God’s sake, on you. My backbone is still there, as is my brain, and they aren’t going anywhere. Its just that I listen to these fools occasionally in the morning and on the drive home when the regular programs I listen to hit one of their extended commercial breaks or when I need a good dose of idiocy.

As I said in the beginning, if you really *really* want to get an idea why these absolute idiots should never *ever* be trusted with the defense and national security of America and the free world, have a listen online or check out channel 167 on XM. Unlike those morons, I have no desire to shut them up. I’d love to have everyone in America listen to this crap.

Their content? Hate Bush Bush Bad Bush very bad Bad Bush Bush Tortures Bush Lies Bush hates the environment Bush hates babies Bush eats babies Bush kicks grandparents and old people to the curb Bush hates Muslims Bush hates everyone Bush likes war Bush has killed bajillions Bush Bad Bad badbadbad Bush mean Bad Bush!!!!!!!

Seriously. That is it. Nothing more. Not a scintilla of anything else. Nothing. Nada. Zippo. Zilch. The big Goose Egg.

It is without a doubt the most uninformed, misinformed bunch of moronic lunatics I have ever had the misfortune to come across in my life.

http://instapinch.com/?cat=7

So what's the story, SLAD?

Has Sweet Pea been tombstoned?

Has Boloboffin been tombstoned for defending him (and attacking you)?

If not, then it is surely safe to say that Democratic Underground is a far-right front operation used as a holding bay/playpen for self-described dissidents.

Thanks for saving this conversation, which I see has now been deleted in its entirety by the DU Moderators (or Administrators):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... _id=211856

And please keep us informed as to what's going on there. This is interesting.

[MacCruiskeen]

Well, at 3:15 pm CET, the Boloboffin pillock is still there, still posting, still doing a full-time job (literally) of bedunking 9/11 scepticism. And all the relevant sub-threads have been deleted, while Sweet Pea's other posts remain.

I am very curious about this Sweet Pea character -- the guy Boloboffin was and still is defending so energetically. Seemslikeadream has just outed Sweet Pea as a self-described "right-wing reactionary" who runs a blog arguing that the Democratic Party should never be allowed to run the country. The links on his sidebar including the notoriously right-wing website Little Green Footballs.

Therefore: if Sweet Pea is still a member of DU today*, then DU has just been outed as a right-wing front organisation. I can't see any other rational conclusion. And the word should be spread.

*Could somebody please search the DU site for Sweet Pea's user-profile? Thanks.

[seemslikeadream]

Well, at 3:15 pm CET, the Boloboffin pillock is still there, still posting, still doing a full-time job (literally) of bedunking 9/11 scepticism. And all the relevant sub-threads have been deleted, while Sweet Pea's other posts remain.

I am very curious about this Sweet Pea character -- the guy Boloboffin was and still is defending so energetically. Seemslikeadream has just outed Sweet Pea as a self-described "right-wing reactionary" who runs a blog arguing that the Democratic Party should never be allowed to run the country. The links on his sidebar including the notoriously right-wing website Little Green Footballs.

Therefore: if Sweet Pea is still a member of DU today*, then DU has just been outed as a right-wing front organisation. I can't see any other rational conclusion. And the word should be spread.

*Could somebody please search the DU site for Sweet Pea's user-profile? Thanks.

Username: Sweet Pea

Send private message Add to buddy list

Profile name Profile value
Member since Nov 11th 2004
Number of posts 1131
Gender male
State Virginia

[MacCruiskeen]

Thanks, SLAD. So Sweet Pea is still there, still a valued member of the DU community. Well, well, well, well, well...

I think this deserves a separate thread here, and a lot of publicity elsewhere too.

Or am I making too much of this? It's long been my strong suspicion that Skinner is running a Skinner Box, and that many of the bedunkers at the 9/11 Dungeon are full-time paid operatives. (How else do they find the time, the energy and the desire to do what they do?) The place is incredibly popular, and therefore an incredible energy sink. Now this: a right-wing ranter against the Democratic Party and the left is protected by the people who run the site, who also delete the evidence.

[JackRiddler]

.

For the record, the name Skinner is taken from a character on The Simpsons, and the chief DU admin has used that Skinner as his avatar image in the past. Whether it is also meant to have other associations, I do not know or particularly care. (I hope that doesn't inspire a six-page treatise from a predictable quarter.)

For those who don't know The Simpsons, the Skinner character is a traumatized Vietnam veteran and the principal of the elementary school, an incompetent authoritarian and opportunist trapped in a dead-end career despite his constant machinations to win favor from the insidious Superintendant Chalmers. Skinner is usually outsmarted by the mischievous Bart Simpson. But I guess the name is supposed to be a joke, like, he's forced to be the principal, get it?

I do not hope to get banned from DU this week or next, for that matter, nor do I advocate tombstonings for one's ideas. A revealing dimension of the SweetPea episode, on the most base level, is the lack of equality in name-calling. Anyone who questions 9/11 in even innocuous ways is slapped with all the familiar bedunker labels and tactics, called a troofer, loon, woo, etc. But then you can't point out SweetPea's clear affiliation and passionate convictions, including about DU itself?

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

boloboffin has a website dedicated to countering Richard Gage's Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, too.

Doesn't actually do it, it's just...there.

This (s)election season is an unusually desperate one for the CIA-CFR-GOP and the internet will be a cyber-bloodbath, no prisoners.

Hang on and gear up for real persistent ugliness a-comin'.

[Avalon]

Anyone who questions 9/11 in even innocuous ways is slapped with all the familiar bedunker labels and tactics, called a troofer, loon, woo, etc

Um, given that, isn't your recent indulgence in "bedunker" a bit hypocritical? We should call them names to show them that we think namecalling is juvenile, disruptive and offensive?

[JackRiddler]

Avalon:

You didn't get the point. Names fly all over the place, yes.

I said, personal attacks from the bedunker side are tolerated, whereas as we now see, it's not allowed to point out a simple and public truth about a Republican posting at DU, if he's on the bedunker side.

[stickdog99]

Anyone who questions 9/11 in even innocuous ways is slapped with all the familiar bedunker labels and tactics, called a troofer, loon, woo, etc

Um, given that, isn't your recent indulgence in "bedunker" a bit hypocritical? We should call them names to show them that we think namecalling is juvenile, disruptive and offensive?

Quite the eminently reasonable Alan Colmesian liberal take, Avalon.