Gender testing for track star

[norton ash]

A friend was over while I had cable news on today, and I mentioned that a CBS sports columnist had written that Semenya was "too ugly."

He disagreed, saying "She's not ugly. She looks like a boy, but she's not ugly."

I had to agree with him. She isn't ugly.

Mary Decker's snarling face after her trip and fall... now that was ugly.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I used to think Mary Decker was alright, till that 3K race in LA, as a kid she competed really well against adults and seemed like she had some heart.

The fall and her response was pathetic. She was acting like a hometown, well home country gold medal was her right, a mere formality, and it had somehow been "stolen" from her, cos she didn't know how to run in a pack.

Thats pissweak IMO.

[Project Willow]

Woman atop Man's head (skull then, you miscreants.)






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sMc-p19FIk

[OP ED]

(skull then, you miscreants.)

read my mind. nice pics tho.

[erosoplier]

Has anybody mentioned that she apparently returned a result 3 times higher than the normal high female level for testosterone?

Which isn't proof that something underhanded has been going on, apparently.

Given her masculine features, it's probably rather inevitable that she would test much higher than average for testosterone.

[barracuda]

Interestingly, eros, your mention of that fact is the actually the fourth time it has been brought up here. This is from the NYT commissioned article referenced upthread regarding the "rulebook" for sex verification:

the average female athlete is not the average woman. In some sports, she is likely to have naturally high levels of androgens. That is probably part of why she has succeeded athletically.

By the way, that is also why she is often flat-chested, boyish looking and may have a bigger-than-average clitoris. High levels of androgens can do all that.

Sure, in certain sports, a woman with naturally high levels of androgens has an advantage. But is it an unfair advantage? I don’t think so. Some men naturally have higher levels of androgens than other men. Is that unfair?

Consider an analogy: Men on average are taller than women. But do we stop women from competing if a male-typical height gives them an advantage over shorter women? Can we imagine a Michele Phelps or a Patricia Ewing being told, “You’re too tall to compete as a woman?” So why would we want to tell some women, “You naturally have too high a level of androgens to compete as a woman?” There seems to be nothing wrong with this kind of natural advantage.

[erosoplier]

Sorry I'm so lazy - dial-up connection, and the sex wars, made checking for myself too painful.

[Penguin]

I thought it was intriguing that in this thread, Stephen Morgan claimed that men are better at all sports because, well, they are better, and physically better, and simply, better!

But in that other thread, he seems to think that the reason there are more women in universities in some places (like here in dear Finland) is a sinister feminist conspiracy, instead of women perhaps simply being better at studying, like, with better memory, better reading comprehension, or better ability to concentrate. Which is also why many corporations like to hire women instead of men to do their assembly line work. Your phone and computer were probably assembled by women as well.

That simply cannot be, for how could they be better at anything? That would be unfair.

Testosterone does have something to do with this too, of course.
Especially among teenage boys, around which age the school success takes a nosedive with the "boys be boys".

[OP ED]

not to chance to interject anything that could be misinterpreted in mr M's defences, but, Penguin...

school as a system, seems to me specifically designed to break the natural will of male children. to make good drones of them. or at the least to seperate the higher functionaries from the cannon fodder that most of them will live their lives as.

[its designs on girls came later]

also, as with sport, there is a lot of cross over amongst the total differences in strength between standards for males/females in academics.

(OP ED's verbal/reading skills are, according to standard testing, better than around 99.5% of the adult female population, and i skimmed the end of the test to go play with my friends)

[Penguin]

school as a system, seems to me specifically designed to break the natural will of male children. to make good drones of them. or at the least to seperate the higher functionaries from the cannon fodder that most of them will live their lives as.

[its designs on girls came later]

And you would be correct.
My psychology teacher in college equivalent here, did his doctoral thesis on this very matter. Would say he was right as well.

Of course, that is the basic function of school in probably most places today. Not to learn to think and learn, but to learn by rote and perform tedious tasks, and respect authority without merit.

Another large reason for this, imho, is also the severe lack of males in organized child care and schooling.
Having myself worked in daycare, it is a real issue. I dont think anyone is preventing men from taking a part in education of children, though.

Guess what the ratio of females to males is at the faculty of pedagogics?
When I took the admittance test, I was one of 4 males, with over 200 females. Talk about slanted.

(not to mention that people take on a lot of baggage while growing up, and being a good hardworking well concentrating assembly line worker probably mostly falls in this area)

(edit - personal anecdote re: school: Luckily for me, my dad taught me to read and do maths among other things well before school, so I was reading books by the time I had to go there. I hated it from the first day, and I still have a vivid memory from my first day of school, as I solemnly promised myself I would never attend school after 16 years when the mandatory education age is over. Unfair unknown people telling me what to do, and able to punish me as well - often for arbitrary reasons.. Luckily the library was right next to school and it became my favourite place for after school self studies)

[OP ED]

And you would be correct.
My psychology teacher in college equivalent here, did his doctoral thesis on this very matter. Would say he was right as well.

Of course, that is the basic function of school in probably most places today. Not to learn to think and learn, but to learn by rote and perform tedious tasks, and respect authority without merit.

Another large reason for this, imho, is also the severe lack of males in organized child care and schooling.
Having myself worked in daycare, it is a real issue. I dont think anyone is preventing men from taking a part in education of children, though.

Guess what the ratio of females to males is at the faculty of pedagogics?
When I took the admittance test, I was one of 4 males, with over 200 females. Talk about slanted.

(not to mention that people take on a lot of baggage while growing up, and being a good hardworking well concentrating assembly line worker probably mostly falls in this area)

[i know i'm correct, btw, it says so on the BOE's charter]

OP ED also has worked in the, er, daycare industry.

[let that sink in to fill hearts with cold and bitter terror]

i was the only male working there. shame too, cuz most of thee wimmins there were already taken...
eventually i quit to devote myself entirely to my other part time, now full time job which paid much better, that of being a janitor. which is my true calling, btw, and what GOD in His infinite wisdom always planned for me. No one can make an industrial tiled floor as shiny as OP ED.
[Mr. Clean is my hero]

...

wrt: universities and slantedness:

one of OE's biggest regrets in life is turning down a full-cost offer to attend a very local [five mile] private but well-accredited college, which i was offered not on the basis of my academic credentials [not entirely anyhow] but as a result of having been head hunted by various christian secondary educational apparatuses due to my infamous abilities as a pulpit speaker which were already apparent to my teachers. [because they went to my church]

the reason i regret it, having since also realized that four years of free education is a lot, is mostly due to the slanted student body which has twelve females to each male...

[maybe this also was god's plan...]

[erosoplier]

World champ Semenya's gender mystery solved [kind of]

September 11, 2009

WORLD champion 800 metre runner Caster Semenya has been revealed to have both male and female sexual organs, posing an ethical and political quandary for the world international athletics body, the IAAF, and South Africa.

Extensive physical and emotional examinations of Semenya, 18, have shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite.

Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal testes, producing amounts of testosterone considered abnormal for a woman.

Late last night the IAAF was trying to contact Semenya to inform her of the medical results following exhaustive examinations involving blood tests, chromosome tests and a gynaecological exam she underwent after dominating the world titles in Berlin last month.

It is believed the IAAF wants to consider the results further before publishing details. One possibility is to allow Semenya to retain her gold medal, but award another gold medal to the second-placed athlete.

After her stunning victory, Semenya was embroiled in worldwide controversy, but returned to South Africa as a hero. South African politicians condemned the scrutiny.

It is understood the IAAF had not been able to contact Semenya last night. Athletics South Africa president Leonard Chuene said he was unaware of the tests being completed.

Earlier the IAAF said it was likely Semenya would keep her medal because the case was not related to a drug matter.

''This is a medical issue and not a doping issue where she was deliberately cheating,'' said IAAF spokesman Nick Davies.

''These tests do not suggest any suspicion of deliberate misconduct but seek to assess the possibility of a potential medical condition which would give Semenya an unfair advantage.''

[smallprint]

World champ Semenya's gender mystery solved [kind of]

September 11, 2009

WORLD champion 800 metre runner Caster Semenya has been revealed to have both male and female sexual organs, posing an ethical and political quandary for the world international athletics body, the IAAF, and South Africa.

Extensive physical and emotional examinations of Semenya, 18, have shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite.

Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal testes, producing amounts of testosterone considered abnormal for a woman.

So besides all the social issues, if she wants to compete in the future, does she run in the men's race, or what?

edit: according to wiki "New rules permit transsexual athletes to compete in the Olympics after having completed sex reassignment surgery, being legally recognized as a member of the target sex, and having undergone two years of hormonal therapy (unless they changed gender before puberty)."

I don't see how they can resolve this without just letting her compete with women.

[barracuda]

This does put the IAAF in a bit of a spot. I don't see how they can award a gold medal to the second place runner without subjecting her and the other competitors to the same phalanx of tests. Does this mean every woman competeing at this level is required a complete gynecological and hormonal run-up before allowing them to enter races? What about parallel qualifying examinations for all male competitors, just in case they might have unfairly hidden away an extra teste or two? I doubt if it's unheard of. What about other, non-sexual, "unfair" physical advantages? What constitutes a "fair" advantage? Should they implement weight and height categories throughout all track and field events, with all medals and records divided accordingly, as is done in boxing or wrestling or weightlifting?

This girl is a female identified so-called "technical hermaphrodite" who, without the benefit of an highly invasive examination, would "pass" as a woman in any setting you can imagine. You sort of have to wonder how Mildred Zaharias would have faired in such a milieu. Or at least that is the state of the ridiculous the IAAF would have us inhabit.

It would be much better if she and her ilk stayed at home, got themselves prettied up and waited for the phone to ring.
– sportswriter Joe Williams, New York World-Telegram

This whole tempest has gotten no less stupid with this announcement, and casts an ugly and unnecessary shadow across all sport, IMHO.

-------


My real opinion is that sporting "rules" are generally needless anyway in this day and age. All doping, surgery, eye-gouging, whatever, of any kind should be allowed in IAAF and Olympic competition, and just let fly. That way it would at least reflect the state of play in the world at large. These meaningless affectations carried over from the genteel colonial days of "gentlemanly amateurs" are just confusing to a population raised on the mayhem of modern state/corporate actions.

[compared2what?]

World champ Semenya's gender mystery solved [kind of]

September 11, 2009

WORLD champion 800 metre runner Caster Semenya has been revealed to have both male and female sexual organs, posing an ethical and political quandary for the world international athletics body, the IAAF, and South Africa.

Extensive physical and emotional examinations of Semenya, 18, have shown the athlete is technically a hermaphrodite.

Medical reports indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal testes, producing amounts of testosterone considered abnormal for a woman.

Late last night the IAAF was trying to contact Semenya to inform her of the medical results following exhaustive examinations involving blood tests, chromosome tests and a gynaecological exam she underwent after dominating the world titles in Berlin last month.

It is believed the IAAF wants to consider the results further before publishing details. One possibility is to allow Semenya to retain her gold medal, but award another gold medal to the second-placed athlete.

After her stunning victory, Semenya was embroiled in worldwide controversy, but returned to South Africa as a hero. South African politicians condemned the scrutiny.

It is understood the IAAF had not been able to contact Semenya last night. Athletics South Africa president Leonard Chuene said he was unaware of the tests being completed.

Earlier the IAAF said it was likely Semenya would keep her medal because the case was not related to a drug matter.

''This is a medical issue and not a doping issue where she was deliberately cheating,'' said IAAF spokesman Nick Davies.

''These tests do not suggest any suspicion of deliberate misconduct but seek to assess the possibility of a potential medical condition which would give Semenya an unfair advantage.''

Wait, wait, wait. I must be wrong in understanding this article to be reporting that the IAFF just announced that Caster Semenya was a hermaphrodite to the entire damn world without bothering to share that information with Caster Semenya first. Mustn't I? Because that kind of thing can lead to, you know, suicide. Or murder, depending on the immediate cultural environment. Please tell me I'm wrong, anyone.

Also: WTF kind of waiver do these athletes have to sign? If she had HIV, could they announce that too? I thought they were concerned about drug use.