Roman Polanski arrested in child sex case

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Postby Nordic » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:47 pm

I have to admit I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, the thing was settled out of court. He's been stigmatized his whole life, but this probably wasn't the worst thing he's ever lived through. Not at all. And he's an old man, older than my father (by just a bit) which makes him pretty fucking old.

On the other hand, he raped a 13 year old girl.

I don't feel bad for the guy, at all, but I sorta wish they could just let it rest. In the whole scheme of things, it's not the biggest crime to come down the pike at all. We have a lot of other criminals, right here in America, who have done far worse things and who are living the high life and laughing their asses off at us.

Karma never dies, really. Every action has a reaction. It's really as simple as that. So he needs to just figure that it finally caught up with him and deal with it. Be a man about it, Roman. You raped a 13 year old girl. Deal with it.

And any argument as to special consideration given to artists? That's just abominable. I have to say I'm really offended by all the Hollywood and Literari Stars who have decided to get all angry about this. I mean, of all the things to get angry about, "let's go out of our way to defend some guy who raped a 13 year old girl". Wow. Bad form.

"We're special! We're talented and we make movies and books! We have our own set of rules!"

And Woody Allen should be the grunt of late-night jokesters for the rest of his life because of his "defense" of this.

The thing that gets me is, again, the timing of it. It's odd, there's something behind it and yes, I'm sure it has to do with the UBS angle, and of course nobody will talk about that, instead we have yet another media distraction for the masses, and yet another way in which the "conservatives" can point out how immoral "liberals" are, so we can keep that whole "divide and conquer" nonsense going.

I still think it's connected, somehow, to the MacKenzie Phillips thing. At least on some propagandistic level. All part of reviving the GOP as the party of "values". John Phillips, the dirty old perveted hippie, right? The icon of the 60's, right along with Polanski, child molesters all.
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Postby smallprint » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:12 pm

Nordic wrote:
The thing that gets me is, again, the timing of it. It's odd, there's something behind it and yes, I'm sure it has to do with the UBS angle, and of course nobody will talk about that, instead we have yet another media distraction for the masses, and yet another way in which the "conservatives" can point out how immoral "liberals" are, so we can keep that whole "divide and conquer" nonsense going.

I still think it's connected, somehow, to the MacKenzie Phillips thing. At least on some propagandistic level. All part of reviving the GOP as the party of "values". John Phillips, the dirty old perveted hippie, right? The icon of the 60's, right along with Polanski, child molesters all.



Great comment... I just wanted to add:

a) actually, lots of people ARE talking about the timing of this, including major newspapers. In fact, it's becoming a big part of Polanski's supporter's defense.

b) John Phillips and Roman Polanski are very closely intertwined, as Dave McGowan's Laurel Canyon series revealed:
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewt ... &start=180

c) IanEye and I just got into a virtual tussle because he apparently thought I was some raging RW teabagger coming in to raid this site. Why? Because I attacked Roman Polanski, a convicted rapist! Since when does defending a child rapist become "Left Wing", and defending a rape victim "Right Wing"? This whole thing is bizarre. There is a massive disconnect between the elite and the rest of us, and they are trying to create an idiotic, artificial Left/Right division on this issue.
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Postby brekin » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:57 pm

via The Volokh Conspiracy

http://volokh.com/2009/09/28/roman-pola ... ador-dali/

Roman Polanski, George Orwell, and Salvador Dali


Jim Lindgren • September 28, 2009 9:39 pm

When I was running university film societies in the 1970s and early 1980s, I considered Roman Polanski’s Chinatown the best film made in the 1970s. I don’t know what I would think today because I haven’t seen it for three decades. And I still consider Rosemary’s Baby one of the best horror movies ever made.

I mention this because good artists are not necessarily good people and bad people are not necessarily bad artists.

The first writer I encountered who explored this issue was George Orwell in his essay on Dali. The essay is also memorable because its second sentence contains one of Orwell’s most resonant ideas: “any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats.”


Notes on Dali

George Orwell


Autobiography is only to be trusted when it reveals something disgraceful. A man who gives a good account of himself is probably lying, since any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats. However, even the most flagrantly dishonest book (Frank Harris’s autobiographical writings are an example) can without intending it give a true picture of its author. Dali’s recently published Life [The Secret Life of Salvador Dali (The Dial Press, 1942)] comes under this heading. Some of the incidents in it are flatly incredible, others have been rearranged and romanticised, and not merely the humiliation but the persistent ordinariness of everyday life has been cut out. Dali is even by his own diagnosis narcissistic, and his autobiography is simply a strip-tease act conducted in pink limelight. But as a record of fantasy, of the perversion of instinct that has been made possible by the machine age, it has great value.

Here, then, are some of the episodes in Dali’s life, from his earliest years onward. Which of them are true and which are imaginary hardly matters: the point is that this is the kind of thing that Dali would have liked to do.

When he is six years old there is some excitement over the appearance of Halley’s comet:

* Suddenly one of my father’s office clerks appeared in the drawing-room doorway and announced that the comet could be seen from the terrace…. While crossing the hall I caught sight of my little three-year-old sister crawling unobtrusively through a doorway. I stopped, hesitated a second, then gave her a terrible kick in the head as though it had been a ball, and continued running, carried away with a ‘delirious joy’ induced by this savage act. But my father, who was behind me, caught me and led me down in to his office, where I remained as a punishment till dinner-time.”

A year earlier than this Dali had “suddenly, as most of my ideas occur,” flung another little boy off a suspension bridge. Several other incidents of the same kind are recorded, including (this was when he was twenty-nine years old) knocking down and trampling on a girl “until they had to tear her, bleeding, out of my reach.”

When he is about five he gets hold of a wounded bat which he puts into a tin pail. Next morning he finds that the bat is almost dead and is covered with ants which are devouring it. He puts it in his mouth, ants and all, and bites it almost in half.

When he is an adolescent a girl falls desperately in love with him. He kisses and caresses her so as to excite her as much as possible, but refuses to go further. He resolves to keep this up for five years (he calls it his “five-year plan”), enjoying her humiliation and the sense of power it gives him. He frequently tells her that at the end of the five years he will desert her, and when the time comes he does so.

. . . When he first meets his future wife, Gala, he is greatly tempted to push her off a precipice. He is aware that there is something that she wants him to do to her, and after their first kiss the confession is made:

* I threw back Gala’s head, pulling it by the hair, and trembling with complete hysteria, I commanded: “Now tell me what you want me to do with you! But tell me slowly, looking me in the eye, with the crudest, the most ferociously erotic words that can make both of us feel the greatest shame!”

* Then Gala, transforming the last glimmer of her expression of pleasure into the hard light of her own tyranny, answered: “I want you to kill me!”

He is somewhat disappointed by this demand, since it is merely what he wanted to do already. He contemplates throwing her off the bell-tower of the Cathedral of Toledo, but refrains from doing so.

. . . Of course, in this long book of 400 quarto pages there is more than I have indicated, but I do not think that I have given an unfair account of his moral atmosphere and mental scenery. It is a book that stinks. If it were possible for a book to give a physical stink off its pages, this one would — a thought that might please Dali, who before wooing his future wife for the first time rubbed himself all over with an ointment made of goat’s dung boiled up in fish glue. But against this has to be set the fact that Dali is a draughtsman of very exceptional gifts. He is also, to judge by the minuteness and the sureness of his drawings, a very hard worker. He is an exhibitionist and a careerist, but he is not a fraud. He has fifty times more talent than most of the people who would denounce his morals and jeer at his paintings. And these two sets of facts, taken together, raise a question which for lack of any basis of agreement seldom gets a real discussion.

The point is that you have here a direct, unmistakable assault on sanity and decency; and even — since some of Dali’s pictures would tend to poison the imagination like a pornographic postcard — on life itself. What Dali has done and what he has imagined is debatable, but in his outlook, his character, the bedrock decency of a human being does not exist. He is as anti-social as a flea. Clearly, such people are undesirable, and a society in which they can flourish has something wrong with it. . . .

But if you talk to the kind of person who can see Dali’s merits, the response that you get is not as a rule very much better. If you say that Dali, though a brilliant draughtsman, is a dirty little scoundrel, you are looked upon as a savage. If you say that you don’t like rotting corpses, and that people who do like rotting corpses are mentally diseased, it is assumed that you lack the æsthetic sense. Since “Mannequin rotting in a taxicab” is a good composition. And between these two fallacies there is no middle position, but we seldom hear much about it. On the one side Kulturbolschewismus: on the other (though the phrase itself is out of fashion) “Art for Art’s sake.” Obscenity is a very difficult question to discuss honestly. People are too frightened either of seeming to be shocked or of seeming not to be shocked, to be able to define the relationship between art and morals.

It will be seen that what the defenders of Dali are claiming is a kind of benefit of clergy. The artist is to be exempt from the moral laws that are binding on ordinary people. Just pronounce the magic word “Art,” and everything is O.K.: kicking little girls in the head is O.K. . . . It is also O.K. that Dali should batten on France for years and then scuttle off like rat as soon as France is in danger. So long as you can paint well enough to pass the test, all shall be forgiven you.

One can see how false this is if one extends it to cover ordinary crime. In an age like our own, when the artist is an altogether exceptional person, he must be allowed a certain amount of irresponsibility, just as a pregnant woman is. Still, no one would say that a pregnant woman should be allowed to commit murder, nor would anyone make such a claim for the artist, however gifted. If Shakespeare returned to the earth to-morrow, and if it were found that his favourite recreation was raping little girls in railway carriages, we should not tell him to go ahead with it on the ground that he might write another King Lear.

________________________________________________

When Orwell says that even a reborn Shakespeare couldn’t get away with “raping little girls,” he was either reflecting the mores of the times (1944) — or he forgot about Hollywood.
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Postby OP ED » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:06 pm

On the one hand, the thing was settled out of court.


no. it wasn't.

jesus christ. it amazes me to hear this shit from intelligent folks.

don't you people even watch law shows on tv or something?

you CANNOT "settle" a criminal case out of court.

ever.

jesus christ.
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Postby OP ED » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:22 pm

sorry.
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Postby Percival » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:50 pm

OP ED wrote:
On the one hand, the thing was settled out of court.


no. it wasn't.

jesus christ. it amazes me to hear this shit from intelligent folks.

don't you people even watch law shows on tv or something?

you CANNOT "settle" a criminal case out of court.

ever.

jesus christ.


Thats true, you can only settle a civil case, the criminal case is out of the victims hands and even if they refuse to press charges the DA can still decide to proceed in certain circumstances...since there is no statute of limitations on certain crimes like murder, rape and certainly statutory rape, the DA can proceed with these charges at this time, 30 years later, if he/she so wishes.
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Postby barracuda » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:51 am

smallprint wrote:I see your point here but neither Einstein nor Da Vinci was ever convicted, or even charged, with a crime. And futhermore, Polanski is not an inventor. He merely made some movies.

Einstein wasn't an inventor either. He merely wrote some equations, which were used, as he knew they could be, to create weapons of mass destruction which eventually killed 200,000 innocent Japanese. No, he wasn't convicted for a crime, but he was known to have struggled with his grief about the thing. And I'm not comparing Einstein to Polanski. I'm comparing the work of Einstein and the work of Polanski. Or do you think mathematics or inventions are more important than art? Because I happen not to.

Ok, yeah, aura. What we are talking about is an extremely public, extremely controversial ARREST, not an "aura".


That may be what you are talking about. I am talking about his art. I thought we already agreed that he should do time.

Oh, and the "you can't criticize unless you've seen his films" defense. That is a worthless argument, and I HAVE seen several of his films.

I poised the question for the exact opposite reason you seem to think I did. (We are clearly communicating poorly with each other.) My point is, since you seem to think the movies of child rapists should be boycotted as a good first step, why didn't you? Why did you watch not just one, but several ofhis films? It's not like you didn't know the history here.

That is very interesting and all, but why are you comparing your jail time to Roman Polanski? Your original comment gave the impression of trivializing or minimizing the fact that he was in jail/going to jail.


I thought we were talking about your notion that the works and deeds of criminals should be boycotted. I was only making the comment that my own criminal past had effected something of that nature in regards to my own work. I wasn't intending to minimalise anything.

Well, I think the American "justice" system is absolute shit, but that doesn't mean I fucking root against them when they actually arrest a child rapist that they should have arrested a long time ago!

Oh, and the "needs of the victim"?? You are so CONCERNED about her, that's why you want this to just go away. The case is called "State of California vs Polanski" and the entire State is the aggrieved party, by law, and the State will take him in. And the victim has repeatedly said that she is in PAIN because she is reliving the events every time she gets dragged through the mud!! Yeah, she is saying that she doesn't want him to go to jail!! All of Hollywood and half of Europe are basically calling her a worthless slut! Of course she wants this to be over with!


Do you have a link for this? I haven't heard Samantha Geimer referred to this way in the press at all.

I'm sorry, open your fucking eyes.


You might as well rail against me; I'm probably the closest thing you're going to find on this board to an apologist for Roman Polanski, and as I have said several times, I think he's got what's coming to him, I don't really care who he is or how old he is. Go ahead, smallprint, get it all out, you clearly have some indignation to work through. Myself, I kind of got over the real intense feelings about this case some twenty-five years ago or so, though it's not like I ever thought he should be allowed back into the country, or get a free pass. I have a young daughter, and I wouldn't in a million years let Polanski anywhere near her. It's just that after all that time, I can't work up a big head of steam about it like you seem to have mustered. I don't hate him for what happened. I see him as a seriously flawed fugitive from justice, who happens to make great art. And yes, I think some of his movies are undeniably great works of art, and they were rather universally acclaimed as such before the scandal of this crime attached itself to his name. And yes, I intend to continue to view his movies, but of course all the while knowing exactly who made them. And that knowledge will alter the aura of his films for me, even the ones made before the crime.

OP ED wrote:i understand the notion of no one being innocent, although in other contexts i might argue precisely the opposite.


I think you can argue precisely the opposite here as well. Just as no one is innocent, we are all victims, Polanski included. He was the victim of Adolph Hitler's extermination camps, he was the victim of Charles Manson's insane murder spree, and finally he was the victim of his own perversions and hubris. He deserves whatever he gets.
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Postby Nordic » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:25 am

The George Orwell on Salvador Dali is perfect.

Although i didn't know all of this about Dali, and now I do, and I wish I didn't! :)

Because I always liked Dali ...... his work that is.

Could it be that his autobiography was deliberately and artificially contrived to be "shocking" like many of his works of art?

I mean, perhaps he was playing with audiences expectations, and seeing what he could get away with as the great "artist", I mean, some of that is so over-the-top it's actually a bit hard to swallow. Like melting clocks over tree branches.

Polanski freely admits to liking teenage girls. In his autobiography he talks about, at some point in his life, driving and parking outside some girls' school at night, and the girls would escape from their rooms and climb over the fence, looking for some adventure. And he'd be there to give it to them.

Then again, I've never understood how someone would enjoy sex act against the will of the other person involved in the act. I just don't get it. I can't imagine a bigger buzz-kill than the other party involved not wanting to be involved.
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Postby smallprint » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:26 am

barracuda wrote:
smallprint wrote:I see your point here but neither Einstein nor Da Vinci was ever convicted, or even charged, with a crime. And futhermore, Polanski is not an inventor. He merely made some movies.

Einstein wasn't an inventor either. He merely wrote some equations, which were used, as he knew they could be, to create weapons of mass destruction which eventually killed 200,000 innocent Japanese. No, he wasn't convicted for a crime, but he was known to have struggled with his grief about the thing. And I'm not comparing Einstein to Polanski. I'm comparing the work of Einstein and the work of Polanski. Or do you think mathematics or inventions are more important than art? Because I happen not to.


Yes, my point was not the word "inventor" but rather that Einstein was helping create things that would kill many people. And yes, he was very conflicted about what he had done, unlike Polanski. I know you are comparing their art, and not the men, and the idea that you can (or should) separate them is what we disagree upon. That math vs art is a strawman, I didn't even mention math.


Ok, yeah, aura. What we are talking about is an extremely public, extremely controversial ARREST, not an "aura".


That may be what you are talking about. I am talking about his art. I thought we already agreed that he should do time.


Again, that separation is what we disagree upon.

Oh, and the "you can't criticize unless you've seen his films" defense. That is a worthless argument, and I HAVE seen several of his films.

I poised the question for the exact opposite reason you seem to think I did. (We are clearly communicating poorly with each other.) My point is, since you seem to think the movies of child rapists should be boycotted as a good first step, why didn't you? Why did you watch not just one, but several ofhis films? It's not like you didn't know the history here.


Well, I do agree we are communicating poorly, and I have to take responsibility for my part in that. I'll try to be clearer and not jump to conclusions.

I saw a few of his movies before I knew anything about the rape. I did not know his history. I didn't even know he was in exile. I did boycott "The Piano." (If you can even call a single person not watching a movie a 'boycott.')

That is very interesting and all, but why are you comparing your jail time to Roman Polanski? Your original comment gave the impression of trivializing or minimizing the fact that he was in jail/going to jail.


I thought we were talking about your notion that the works and deeds of criminals should be boycotted. I was only making the comment that my own criminal past had effected something of that nature in regards to my own work. I wasn't intending to minimalise anything.


Thanks, I misunderstood you and jumped to conclusions. I apologize. I certainly don't think people should boycott random artists because they went to jail. Or value them solely because they went to jail, for that matter. Rather, that committing a specific crime, avoiding justice, and being in the public eye make a stronger case about how you approach their work.

Well, I think the American "justice" system is absolute shit, but that doesn't mean I fucking root against them when they actually arrest a child rapist that they should have arrested a long time ago!

Oh, and the "needs of the victim"?? You are so CONCERNED about her, that's why you want this to just go away. The case is called "State of California vs Polanski" and the entire State is the aggrieved party, by law, and the State will take him in. And the victim has repeatedly said that she is in PAIN because she is reliving the events every time she gets dragged through the mud!! Yeah, she is saying that she doesn't want him to go to jail!! All of Hollywood and half of Europe are basically calling her a worthless slut! Of course she wants this to be over with!


Do you have a link for this? I haven't heard Samantha Geimer referred to this way in the press at all.


This was over the line. I apologize again. The remarks by Lech Walesa, Mitterand, Weinstein, Debra Winger et al are scattered around various articles, and basically refer to Geimer's rape as nothing significant. None of them actually called her a "slut", although many other people on the internet are.


I'm sorry, open your fucking eyes.


You might as well rail against me; I'm probably the closest thing you're going to find on this board to an apologist for Roman Polanski, and as I have said several times, I think he's got what's coming to him, I don't really care who he is or how old he is. Go ahead, smallprint, get it all out, you clearly have some indignation to work through. Myself, I kind of got over the real intense feelings about this case some twenty-five years ago or so, though it's not like I ever thought he should be allowed back into the country, or get a free pass. I have a young daughter, and I wouldn't in a million years let Polanski anywhere near her. It's just that after all that time, I can't work up a big head of steam about it like you seem to have mustered. I don't hate him for what happened. I see him as a seriously flawed fugitive from justice, who happens to make great art. And yes, I think some of his movies are undeniably great works of art, and they weree rather universally acclaimed as such before the scandal of this crime attached itself to his name. And yes, I intend to continue to view his movies, but of course all the while knowing exactly who made them. And that knowledge will alter the aura of his films for me, even the ones made before the crime.


I did overreact to you. But there are some reasons. I am younger than you and did not know much at all 25 years ago, so I could not get over it then. I was very angry when he got a standing ovation at the Oscars, but I was already pretty disillusioned. But now that Scorsese, Lynch, Demme, Almodovar, Terry Gilliam, Aronofsky, Wes Anderson, and a whole lot of Hollywood heavyweights are calling for Polanski to go scot-free, it is going to a whole new level of outrage. I do have someone close to me who was raped at that age, and she is not healed or "over it" or resigned to it. It is raw, and it makes me angry that people just don't care. And I don't separate art and artists as much as you do, and I think in the case of moral issues, that is important. We can agree to disagree.
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Postby OP ED » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:46 am

i'm with sp on not being able to have gotten over something 25 yrs ago. being 26 and all.

My point is, since you seem to think the movies of child rapists should be boycotted as a good first step, why didn't you? Why did you watch not just one, but several ofhis films? It's not like you didn't know the history here.


if you illegally download the films, he doesn't get any money.

i've only ever paid money for one. $2 at a yard sale. because my last girlfriend and i have a mutual crush on johnny depp.
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Postby TheDuke » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:07 am

smallprint wrote:
Nordic wrote:
The thing that gets me is, again, the timing of it. It's odd, there's something behind it and yes, I'm sure it has to do with the UBS angle, and of course nobody will talk about that, instead we have yet another media distraction for the masses, and yet another way in which the "conservatives" can point out how immoral "liberals" are, so we can keep that whole "divide and conquer" nonsense going.

I still think it's connected, somehow, to the MacKenzie Phillips thing. At least on some propagandistic level. All part of reviving the GOP as the party of "values". John Phillips, the dirty old perveted hippie, right? The icon of the 60's, right along with Polanski, child molesters all.



Great comment... I just wanted to add:

a) actually, lots of people ARE talking about the timing of this, including major newspapers. In fact, it's becoming a big part of Polanski's supporter's defense.

b) John Phillips and Roman Polanski are very closely intertwined, as Dave McGowan's Laurel Canyon series revealed:
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewt ... &start=180

c) IanEye and I just got into a virtual tussle because he apparently thought I was some raging RW teabagger coming in to raid this site. Why? Because I attacked Roman Polanski, a convicted rapist! Since when does defending a child rapist become "Left Wing", and defending a rape victim "Right Wing"? This whole thing is bizarre. There is a massive disconnect between the elite and the rest of us, and they are trying to create an idiotic, artificial Left/Right division on this issue.


I wouldn't worry about it, IanEye is a silly fuckwit who believes posting shithouse lyrics from shithouse artists along with the odd album cover provides some kind of 'deep' commentary in the threads he comments on.
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Postby §ê¢rꆧ » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:06 am

[ § ]

You are quite mistaken, TheDuke. I'm sorry you can't appreciate IanEye's voice on this board, but that is no reason to call him a fuckwit.

I love Roman Polanski's movies, or did at one time. I think he was the first director I 'followed.' The Tenent was the first one I saw. Barracuda is right, his filmmaking is truly exceptional. Of course I saw many of his films before finding out about the rape, but not knowing the details, I didn't think much of it at the time.

Having read the bit quoted in the smoking gun about the rape, I'm pretty disgusted. If I had read that before... I probably would not have cared to see his films. However having seen them I don't think I can "unsee" them, and so I would probably watch them again, because they are, as mentioned, extraordinary.

And yeah it makes quite a bit of sense, given the timing, this is less about the long arm of justice than international relations.

It is tragic all around.

The theme of separating an artist as a person from his or her body of work is a very interesting one, and comes up quite a bit here. For the most part I think art is something great, something outside of our everyday selves, and deserves to be judged on its own merits, and not necessarily by the vice and personality of its creators.
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Postby TheDuke » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:17 am

§ê¢rꆧ wrote:[ § ]

You are quite mistaken, TheDuke. I'm sorry you can't appreciate IanEye's voice on this board, but that is no reason to call him a fuckwit.



Perhaps that was a bit harsh but for me personally it's a terrible feeling to scroll down and see IanEye as the next poster and know the thread is gonna be ruined by some inane lyric or album cover that he thinks is relevant. It's the equivalent of message board karaoke.

The same guy has a thread called Eye Heart Vagina in the Lounge which makes me suspect he doesn't the chance to Heart the real thing very often.
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Postby compared2what? » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:00 am

Hmm. What I got here is:

A random assortment of responses, both to the topic and to the posts on this thread, none of which follow coherently from one another and each of which is discrete and compartmentalized from every other. It's not easy to figure out how to make an omelet out of that. Or with which broken egg to start.

But I guess I'll begin with what should go without saying, which is that there's no excuse for a grown man to be fucking a thirteen-year-old girl and there never has been. Everyone should know better than to do that. And everyone should know that it's a serious legal and moral violation. And that's that. It's not debatable.

Next up: As it happens, years and years ago, I got fired from a temp consulting gig on one of those deluxe People-Who-Are-the-Fabulous-Favorite-Most-Distinguished-Photogenic-and-World-Famous-Celebrities-We-Can-Think-of-at-the-Moment type annual round-ups that get rolled out every December by every media outlet on Earth, each of which feels compelled to pretend that it's doing something less hackneyed than that every damn year, leading to lots of dull meetings, because those fucking things are what they are (pig; lipstick), and...Where was I? Oh, right. The gimmick for this one was that it wasn't confined to year-in-review limits for some trumped-up reason. The actual reason being that it had been a dull year. I hadn't been doing that kind of work for very long at that point, and was less there to call the shots than I was to put lipstick on pigs as the need arose. However. Um....You guys know me, right? Well, okay. I've always bee exactly like that.

So when my initially diplomatic and moderately expressed concerns about the moral acceptability of spotlighting Roman Polanski for puff-piece treatment under the rubric of "This is a group of the admirable people we've selected from a limitless pool of them in space and time, solely on their impeccable merits" got brushed off by the people I was working for, I really didn't see why I should let that stop me from preventing him from being included. Or the fact that he was the favorite director of the second-guy-on-the-totem-poll for this particular project.

Because it really was just morally unacceptable. Also, I didn't have a lot to lose. So I expended all my credit using all the powers of persuasion at my disposal successfully coaxing everyone except Mr. Second-from-the-Top to see the matter as I did, won the battle, lost the war, and that was a fun five days of my long-ago life, end of story.

Nevertheless. Due to the paradoxical nature of the human condition:

I'm possibly even a little bit closer to being a Roman Polanski apologist than barracuda is. Although I'm well short of actually being one. In that whether or not it's okay that he committed that crime and then just took a pass on paying the price for it is not a question I even have to think about. I mean, that's obviously not only not at all okay. It is affirmatively utterly abhorrent. Yet even still, I don't think that the tone of absolute, unyielding and comprehensive condemnation of him as monstrously and villainously evil that seems to be the consensus view here is really fully justified. I'm not sure that I'm right about that. I guess I have to think it through a little. But provisionally, anyway, it's what I think.

Mainly because even though it should go without saying that there's no excuse for a grown man fucking a thirteen-year-old girl and never has been, and everyone should know better than to do it, etc., sadly: In the '70s, a lot of people really didn't. And one of the reasons I know that is that I was a thirteen-year-old girl in the '70s. Even though I didn't technically join the legions of drunken, clueless minor females with whom legions of non-pedophiliac adult men probably had unlawful sexual intercourse during that era without either party really understanding that it was as serious crime as it is until I was fourteen. I'd like to make it clear that I don't mean that I had sex with legions of adult men when I was fourteen, btw. What I mean is that it wasn't the bright-line issue then that it is now, and that it really should have been then. And unfortunately really wasn't.

I mean, it was definitely not the kind of thing you could do right out in the open with the full approval of society. But neither was any other kind of sexual hook-up outside of a fully-in-love, formally agreed upon monogamous couple relationship back then, really. There were different degrees of oo-this-must-be-secret-tell-no-one. But sex in general was just kind of presumed always to be somewhat illicit by default when it hadn't been made beauteous and pure by romance, per the mainstream cultural consensus of the day. It was confusing. Not that it isn't now, of course. Anyway. I think you 26-ish-year-olds may be applying the should-have-known-better expectations of the present to events that took place when people should indeed have known better every bit as much as they always should have. But however unfortunate it may have been for lots of adolescent girls and lots of adult men, they simply didn't. Realistically speaking. So he really might not have known that it was an actual and absolute serious transgression in the same way that a guy in his forties today really couldn't help but know. Times have changed. A lot. For better and for worse.

The Famous Friends of Roman, on the other hand, have no fucking excuse at all. I mean, despite having a less condemning perspective than "total," I would never, ever in a million fucking years endorse anything that either sanctioned or appeared to sanction his crime on a public level. Because I don't sanction it, privately or publicly. I don't see it the same way that OP ED and smallprint do, though. But as I said, I'm not so sure I'm right. I could just be living with the illusions I was conditioned to live with, for all I know. My point is just that a lot of people were, and they weren't all monstrous evil villainous pedophiles. I mean, are you going to boycott the work of Jimmy Page and Marc Bolan and Iggy Pop and David Bowie and Johnny Thunders, too? Because those are just the first five artists who fucked thirteen- and fourteen-year-old girls in the '70s who happened to spring to my mind at random. If I thought about it for a while, I could fairly easily name another twenty in the rock musician category just from memory and without resorting to G--gle. It would be more of a challenge with actors and directors. But only because they had less latitude wrt how much they had to keep concealed than the outlaw rockers did.

Like I said. Different times. I don't know how much that should count for. Maybe nothing. But fwiw, that's how it was.
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Postby Pierre d'Achoppement » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:49 am

Yeah, some good points to there to think about. I guess the opinions on age of consent vary through time and from country to country. For example, the age of consent in Spain is 13. On the other hand you could say this is irrelevant as there was no consent so that the relatively young age could only be maybe seen as making it even more serious of a crime.
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