Is Porn Bad for You?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Crow » Tue May 25, 2010 12:57 pm

stefano wrote:
Its most common themes, however, are power and submission.

This is flatly untrue. Its most common theme is wanton lust. It's true that there is porn showing submission and male dominance, but I've never liked it and judging by the output of the biggest porn production houses, it's not what most people want.


No, it's completely true. The majority of [heterosexual] porn depicts a fantasy world where men are completely dominant and the women perpetually turned-on and servile. You don't have to have people in chains in order for something to be a power fantasy.
User avatar
Crow
 
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:10 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Nordic » Tue May 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Crow wrote:where men are completely dominant and the women perpetually turned-on and servile


It's not so much about power and servility as it represents a fantasy world where the women really want to have sex, as much as the men.

Which does happen in real life, but when it does happen in real life there's not much desire for porn on the part of the man. He doesn't need it then. He's happy.

My comments in question here were more a preemptive shot across the bow than anything else. Maybe I should just stay out of a thread where the title is "Is _______ bad?" Because that's a generalization right there, and it's that old rhetorical trick that the media uses now. "Is Obama the Antichrist?" You just put a question mark at the end of anything, anything at all, to "discuss" the issue, but what's really happening is a statement is being made WITHOUT the question mark.

You know?

And the article in the OP was written by a woman who seems to be focusing on the question not about porn being bad, but about men being bad.

Are men bad?

That's the real question here.

Some men ARE bad. Most men are not.

And I have to say if anyone wants to do anything about porn, talk to the women. Some of the best porn producers out there right now are women. Then you've got your Lady Gaga doing her videos where she's little more than a porn star herself. (which is fine).

Just yesterday a Victoria's Secret catalog showed up at our house. My wife immediately confiscated it, didn't want me looking at it. To her, it's porn. It's a catalog for women. Then, like I mentioned, there are fashion magazines which women actually pay money for. So they can be told how inadequate they are by the fashion and makeup industries.

I'm just saying that people are people, humans are humans, and if someone has a problem with something, its best to look in the mirror first.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby brekin » Tue May 25, 2010 1:08 pm

I think again people may be using the old arguments about pornography when we are approaching an epoch where the Marquis de Sade and B.F. Skinner combine to change the whole game.

This book is great because it shows what porn does to your brain. (Please inhibit the obvious brain/egg in the frying pan joke.)

The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science

http://www.amazon.com/reader/067003830X ... 067003830X

Page 102
The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change.
Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
But in fact the content of pornography is a dynamic phenomenon that perfectly illustrates the progress of an acquired taste. Thirty years ago “hardcore” pornography usually meant the explicit depiction of sexual intercourse between two aroused partners, displaying their genitals. “Softcore” meant pictures of women, mostly, on a bed, at their toilette, or in some semi romantic setting in various states of dress, breasts unveiled.
Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women’s faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation. Hardcore pornography now explores the world of perversion, while softcore is now what hardcore was a few decades ago.

Page 103

Softcore pornography’s influence is now most profound because, now that it is no longer hidden, it influences young people with little sexual experience and especially plastic minds, in the process forming their sexual tastes and desires. Yet the plastic influence of pornography on adults can be profound, and those who use it have no sense of the extent to which their brains are reshaped by it.





E. Michael Jones interview on his book: Libido Dominandi: Sexual Liberation and Political Control

Interesting premise, he proposes under the guise of freedom and liberation society becomes enslaved to its passions through pornography and easier to be manipulated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=8XkrZPZ ... re=related
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Nordic » Tue May 25, 2010 1:14 pm

brekin wrote:I think again people may be using the old arguments about pornography when we are approaching an epoch where the Marquis de Sade and B.F. Skinner combine to change the whole game.

This book is great because it shows what porn does to your brain. (Please inhibit the obvious brain/egg in the frying pan joke.)

The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science

http://www.amazon.com/reader/067003830X ... 067003830X

Page 102
The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change.
Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
But in fact the content of pornography is a dynamic phenomenon that perfectly illustrates the progress of an acquired taste. Thirty years ago “hardcore” pornography usually meant the explicit depiction of sexual intercourse between two aroused partners, displaying their genitals. “Softcore” meant pictures of women, mostly, on a bed, at their toilette, or in some semi romantic setting in various states of dress, breasts unveiled.
Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women’s faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation. Hardcore pornography now explores the world of perversion, while softcore is now what hardcore was a few decades ago.

Page 103

Softcore pornography’s influence is now most profound because, now that it is no longer hidden, it influences young people with little sexual experience and especially plastic minds, in the process forming their sexual tastes and desires. Yet the plastic influence of pornography on adults can be profound, and those who use it have no sense of the extent to which their brains are reshaped by it.




I completely disagree with this quote, except for the part as to the influence this would have on young minds who haven't developed sexual tastes yet.

To an old guy like myself it's bullshit.

If he says this:

Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women’s faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation.


this speaks volumes about HIS OWN porn tastes! Again, we're seeing personal sexual hangups and sexual guilt being turned into some kind of pseudo-intellectual claptrap.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Simulist » Tue May 25, 2010 1:23 pm

Some people seem obsessed with pornography, most notably many of its critics.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby brekin » Tue May 25, 2010 1:34 pm

Nordic wrote:


brekin wrote:
I think again people may be using the old arguments about pornography when we are approaching an epoch where the Marquis de Sade and B.F. Skinner combine to change the whole game.

This book is great because it shows what porn does to your brain. (Please inhibit the obvious brain/egg in the frying pan joke.)

The Brain That Changes Itself: Stories of Personal Triumph from the Frontiers of Brain Science

http://www.amazon.com/reader/067003830X ... 067003830X

Page 102


Quote:
The current porn epidemic gives a graphic demonstration that sexual tastes can be acquired. Pornography, delivered by high-speed Internet connections, satisfies every one of the prerequisites for neuroplastic change.
Pornography seems, at first glance, to be a purely instinctual matter: sexually explicit pictures trigger instinctual responses, which are the product of millions of years of evolution. But if that were true, pornography would be unchanging. The same triggers, bodily parts and their proportions, that appealed to our ancestors would excite us. This is what pornographers would have us believe for they claim they are battling sexual repression, taboo, and fear and that their goal is to liberate the natural, pent-up sexual instincts.
But in fact the content of pornography is a dynamic phenomenon that perfectly illustrates the progress of an acquired taste. Thirty years ago “hardcore” pornography usually meant the explicit depiction of sexual intercourse between two aroused partners, displaying their genitals. “Softcore” meant pictures of women, mostly, on a bed, at their toilette, or in some semi romantic setting in various states of dress, breasts unveiled.
Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women’s faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation. Hardcore pornography now explores the world of perversion, while softcore is now what hardcore was a few decades ago.

Page 103

Softcore pornography’s influence is now most profound because, now that it is no longer hidden, it influences young people with little sexual experience and especially plastic minds, in the process forming their sexual tastes and desires. Yet the plastic influence of pornography on adults can be profound, and those who use it have no sense of the extent to which their brains are reshaped by it.

I completely disagree with this quote, except for the part as to the influence this would have on young minds who haven't developed sexual tastes yet.

To an old guy like myself it's bullshit.

If he says this:


Quote:
Now hardcore has evolved and is increasingly dominated by the sadomasochistic themes of forced sex, ejaculations on women’s faces, and angry anal sex, all involving scripts fusing sex with hatred and humiliation.

this speaks volumes about HIS OWN porn tastes! Again, we're seeing personal sexual hangups and sexual guilt being turned into some kind of pseudo-intellectual claptrap.


I would really encourage you to read his book then. He is a Psychiatrist/Psychoanalyst whose field is neuroplasticity and who noticed that his regular clients were starting to have this problem. Doesn't seem like me he had a theory and went looking for evidence but the reverse.

And I'm not sure where you disagree. You don't think the rapid proliferation, easy access and hardening of pornography hasn't occurred? Or you don't think this has any significant change on peoples sexual desires and tastes?

As a young man, (early 30's), I can say without a doubt I've seen a huge shift in both just in my lifetime.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Avalon » Tue May 25, 2010 1:49 pm

Simulist wrote:Some people seem obsessed with pornography, most notably many of its critics.


Some people seem obsessed with pornography, most notably many of its proponents.
User avatar
Avalon
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:53 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Nordic » Tue May 25, 2010 1:57 pm

And I'm not sure where you disagree. You don't think the rapid proliferation, easy access and hardening of pornography hasn't occurred? Or you don't think this has any significant change on peoples sexual desires and tastes?


Of course it's occurred. but I don't think a "hardening" has occurred, it's just that there's more of everything. There is also WAY more photos of girls who don't even get nude! People are focused on the nastier stuff and feel guilty about it.

I personally don't like the nastier stuff.

But if there's more of it, then I think supply is just meeting the demand. Again, people need to look in the mirror. "gosh, this junk food is killing me! Maybe they should outlaw junk food! It's BAD!" Quit eating the crap then!

Ya know?

At the same time, I'll say it again, I am worried about my son, when he gets to the age where he wants to look at porn, having his mind completely blown by what's there and how easy it is to see it. For boys, I don't think it's healthy at all.

I don't know what you do about that.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby brekin » Tue May 25, 2010 3:55 pm

Nordic wrote:
Of course it's occurred. but I don't think a "hardening" has occurred, it's just that there's more of everything. There is also WAY more photos of girls who don't even get nude! People are focused on the nastier stuff and feel guilty about it.

I personally don't like the nastier stuff.

But if there's more of it, then I think supply is just meeting the demand. Again, people need to look in the mirror. "gosh, this junk food is killing me! Maybe they should outlaw junk food! It's BAD!" Quit eating the crap then!

Ya know?

At the same time, I'll say it again, I am worried about my son, when he gets to the age where he wants to look at porn, having his mind completely blown by what's there and how easy it is to see it. For boys, I don't think it's healthy at all.

I don't know what you do about that.


Yeah, I think the junk food analogy is apt. Growing up we like to experiment and pursue the exotic, taboo etc. That is normal. But with porn the degrading and violent junk used to be rare. Now though it is approaching the norm. There are some neighborhoods where junk food is the norm and a tomato is rare. Junk food creates its own appetite that gets progressive more decadent and doesn't allow one to enjoy more common foods. What happens if you move to a neighborhood like that or even start visiting?

I think it was Baudelaire who said part of the allure of sex was that there was an element of taboo and forbidden involved. With porn to keep the excitement up the sense of forbidden has to be continually ratcheted up. And the taboo and forbidden on the internet keeps on getting pushed farther and farther out to where the most profane act imaginable has at least a dozen websites devoted to that.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Simulist » Tue May 25, 2010 3:57 pm

Avalon wrote:
Simulist wrote:Some people seem obsessed with pornography, most notably many of its critics.


Some people seem obsessed with pornography, most notably many of its proponents.

Which begs the question, "Why all the obsession?" It seems to me that lots of people on either side of the matter have issues to work out, issues both pre-existing and surpassing "pornography" itself.

My question is, "Does pornography affect those issues in a positive way or in a negative way?" And I think a convincing case can be made either way, depending on the psychology of the individual.

Not surprisingly, there will always be people who will try to convince everyone else that it has to be one way, or another.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Crow » Tue May 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Nordic wrote:
Crow wrote:where men are completely dominant and the women perpetually turned-on and servile


It's not so much about power and servility as it represents a fantasy world where the women really want to have sex, as much as the men.


Which does happen in real life, but when it does happen in real life there's not much desire for porn on the part of the man. He doesn't need it then. He's happy.[/quote]

Ordinarily. Unless he'd rather have porn. That's what my ex-boyfriend was like. That's what porn addicts are like. But of course they want loving relationships as well, so they end up making other people miserable, too.

I have watched a lot of porn myself, and I have enjoyed it, so to some degree I feel like I can speak to both sides of this issue. I just can't deny the fact that there are elements of porn that are problematic for everyone: the people consuming it, the people producing it, and the people who just have to live in the world with it. Objectification is inevitable; human beings get turned on by body parts, generally. But porn is all objectification. Porn reduces sexual and emotional sensitivity.

Human beings create powerful fantasies. But we don't always separate fantasy from reality, and some people can't do it at all. Art inspires life and vice-versa.

I agree with you that porn is not bad in and of itself. Few things are. But I think it's worth pointing out the problems with it, and keeping our eyes and minds open about what we consume, even if we are quite attached to it.

My comments in question here were more a preemptive shot across the bow than anything else. Maybe I should just stay out of a thread where the title is "Is _______ bad?" Because that's a generalization right there, and it's that old rhetorical trick that the media uses now. "Is Obama the Antichrist?" You just put a question mark at the end of anything, anything at all, to "discuss" the issue, but what's really happening is a statement is being made WITHOUT the question mark.

You know?


Yeah, it's a Fox News tactic for sure.

By the way, I just looked at your avatar for the first time. What an image! Very powerful.
User avatar
Crow
 
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:10 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby Username » Wed May 26, 2010 6:09 am

~
Where to start. What to say. How to say it.

C2W?,

Let me start by saying it wasn’t my intention to turn this thread into an argument for or against porn, though in a perfect world, perhaps, we would find little use for it. I don’t think it was the intention of Wendy Maltz, either, in the OP, to be calling for censorship or anything of the sort. But that was the topic you raised with the article by Ellen Willis.

Maltz only seems to be saying, more people are having problems with porn addiction, and she no longer suggests pornographic material as a viable means to better relationships for struggling couples.

Sorry I got cheeky with the “you think” bit. And I don't really care if you like smut. Some of my best friends like smut.

Thank you for your insightful contributions to this thread.


norton ash wrote:Porn is bad for some people. Others, no problem.

(Substitute alcohol, marijuana, grad school, LSD, God, shopping, eating, gambling, gaming... jump in anytime...)


Agreed. But porn, imo, is the manifestation of a frustrated sex drive, and that's major. We only have societal mores to blame for that, imprisoning our sexuality in the darkness and isolation of guilt, shame, inhibition, pain, confusion...jump in anytime...



Barracuda wrote:
Wendy Maltz wrote:
The answers came quickly and from all over the emotional map: "disgusted," "excited," "angry," "anxious," "saddened," "afraid," "horny," "repulsed," "ashamed," "shocked," "amused," "curious," and "ambivalent."


I can't tell if they're talking about pornography or Chuck Berry records.


Perhaps she should have added smug to that list.
~
Username
 
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:27 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby barracuda » Wed May 26, 2010 9:43 am

Username wrote:Perhaps she should have added smug to that list.


I don't know. "Smug" as a response by a group of therapists while sharing their knee-jerk feelings about pornography seems decidedly out of place.

...it wasn’t my intention to turn this thread into an argument for or against porn...


I'm guessing it was the thread title which caused that to happen.

Crow wrote:The majority of [heterosexual] porn depicts a fantasy world where men are completely dominant and the women perpetually turned-on and servile.


Yeah, but porn in which the men are completely submissive and the women never want to have sex doesn't quite live up to the reputation. At the very least, it's probably a niche market.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Is Porn Bad for You?

Postby kool maudit » Wed May 26, 2010 11:42 am

ah, to be in any way culturally conservative on RI, the eternal 1974 of the internet.
kool maudit
 
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:48 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Postby annie aronburg » Wed May 26, 2010 1:14 pm

Isn't pornography the supreme product of capitalism?
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
User avatar
annie aronburg
 
Posts: 1406
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:57 pm
Location: Smokanagan
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 174 guests