Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:08 pm

Percival wrote:I am getting pretty pissed off at the antisemitic assholes around here referring to Jews as racists. Enough already.

What has become of RI?

Wow.


Shocking, isnt it?

Any thought of ANY of those nice settler people having a racist bone in their body is just the most appalling anti-Semitic nonsense. Any thought of ANY Israeli being racist is a hatecrime. Anyone condoning anti-Zionist thought is inherently anti-Semitic by association.

I too am shocked and appalled that a once anti-fascist and anti-racist board is turning into this nightmarish quagmire of virulent, VIRULENT anti-Semitism and have reported it to the LADLE, LADY ANTEBELLUM, JINSA, LADY GAGA, AIPAC, and TUPAC

Israel's crime is that it cares too much, is too gentle and soft with EVERYONE. The IDF is the fluffy pink kitteh of the Military Industrial Complex

We need a long term solution to the Arab Problem, because demographically it just wont go away. Israel needs to grasp the nettle of the Arab Problem in a way that solves it once and for all and that leaves a strong Eretz Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. Israel is the only power in the world with the chutzpah to USE the Samson Option and win. Crush them like dogs I say, whoever 'them' happens to be. We need strong men to lead Israel in these times, not wimps. I want to create a meme to have Ariel Sharon be re-elected as Prime Minister. Just because he is in a Persistent Vegetative State is NO reason for him not to lead the country. Anyone against THAT idea is a raging groaning moaning heaving weaving bobbing anti-SEMITE!!!

Here is the caring sharing IDF in their spiffy new love uniform. FABULOUS.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Laodicean » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:27 pm

Beatings, Abuse, Doctored Evidence Emerge

By Mel Frykberg

RAMALLAH, Jun 7, 2010 (IPS) - Although Israel successfully controlled news of its deadly commando raid on the Free Gaza (FG) flotilla during the first crucial 48 hours of media coverage, emerging evidence from witnesses and survivors is challenging the Israeli government's version of events.

These include claims of medical treatment being withheld; beatings and abuse of passengers who never resisted; the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) doctoring audio and selectively editing videos.

Furthermore, allegations of a possible shoot-to-kill policy, amidst autopsies revealing repeated gun shots to the heads of the victims, are also part of an emerging pattern.

One of the first targets of Israeli commandos raiding the FG flotilla was the international media. Photographers were attacked, and journalists had their video, audio and other communications equipment confiscated. The equipment has still not been returned.

"It was clear that Israel wanted to control the media coverage of the situation from the very beginning," Huwaida Arraf, FG’s chairwoman, told IPS.

Approximately 60 journalists from around the globe were on board the FG flotilla. They were amongst the last to be released by the Israelis.

Israeli authorities denied other media access to the imprisoned journalists and activists during the entire period they were incarcerated. Reporters were also prevented from speaking to the FG activists when they were deported from Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion International airport.

The IDF imposed a media blackout on the wounded being interviewed in Israeli hospitals, with soldiers stationed in hospital wards to enforce the ban. Journalists trying to enter Gaza to cover the raid were turned back by the Israeli authorities at the Erez crossing.

Meanwhile, the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) has denounced Israel’s editing and distribution of footage it confiscated from foreign journalists aboard the FG flotilla.

CPJ refers to claims by the Foreign Press Association (FPA) in Israel that the military "is selectively using footage to bolster its claims that commandos opened fire only after being attacked."

In another incident, the IDF had to clarify and correct another audio tape it released to the media after questions were raised as to its authenticity.

In the audio one of the ‘activists’ on board the FG allegedly tells the Israelis, amongst other things, to "go back to Auschwitz" in what appears to be a fake accent from the United States’ deep south. The "activist" is also heard telling the Israelis: ‘’We are helping Arabs go against the U.S. Don't forget 9/11 guys."

The IDF also claimed that the voice of Arraf was recorded on the ‘Mavi Marmara’, the boat where the activists were shot dead. However, she was on a different boat, the ‘Challenger 1’.

"There were no Americans from the south on the flotilla. Furthermore, the only people to communicate with the Israelis other than myself were the captains," Arraf told IPS.

"One of them was British, two were Greek, two Turkish and one Algerian and they acted in a very professional manner. I was near the VHF radio during the entire period of communication with the IDF and none of those alleged slurs were made," added Arraf.

However, despite the IDF’s retraction/correction, discrepancies remain even in the edited IDF audio which was released five days after the original one. The alleged slurs about Auschwitz and 9/11 remain.

Although it was inevitable that contradictory evidence would emerge following the arrival of hundreds of the released activists in Istanbul, Athens and other European capitals, the first dramatic events are no longer the main headlines of the major media outlets and network corporations.

And this was probably what the Israelis relied on as they went on the diplomatic offensive.

Nevertheless, the raid and its ramifications are not going away. Post-mortems carried out by the Turks reveal that a number of the dead had numerous shots to the head in addition to other parts of the body. Thirty shots were used to kill nine people.

The IDF has a "confirm kill" policy where even after a person (who is considered a danger to the life of a soldier or other Israelis) is neutralised by several bullets, a final shot is fired into the head at close range to "confirm the kill".

Critics have questioned how individuals, who allegedly constituted threats to the life of the commandos, and would therefore be fighting and moving around, remained still long enough to receive so many shots to the head at close range.

Activists further accuse the Israelis of denying the dying and seriously wounded medical attention despite their desperate pleas for help. Other activists were forcibly prevented from going to the aid of the injured.

Survivors, reportedly, have also disputed Israeli claims that their soldiers used live ammunition only after they were attacked by some of the activists who fought back and managed to wound several of the soldiers. They claim the soldiers began shooting before they were attacked as well as after those who fought back had been neutralised.

Further, Israeli claims that the commandos only used violence against activists who attacked them have also been disputed. A number of activists have claimed they were beaten up in jail and at Ben Gurion when they were being deported.

This IPS correspondent was physically threatened and verbally abused by Israeli police when she witnessed, and took pictures of, several frightened and cuffed activists being frog-marched away from the airport’s departure lounge.

Paul Larudee, a 64-year-old activist from the U.S. and a diabetic, had to be hospitalised after he was beaten repeatedly on different occasions by the navy seals. Kenneth O’Keefe, an Irish-American and former marine, was hospitalised in Tel Aviv after he too was beaten by security officials at the airport.

O’Keefe wanted to fight his deportation but was advised by his lawyer to leave the country for his own safety.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51737
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 pm

Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby crikkett » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:37 pm

Percival wrote:
crikkett wrote:I suggest that Israel stop killing, feed the hungry, nurse the sick, give back stolen land, tear down their fucking walls, stop fucking teaching hate, and strive to make a better fucking life for all children.


I agree, if Hamas had not vowed to exterminate them all I bet that is exactly what we would do.


Is there any possibility that Hamas' threat is impotent?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:42 pm

The Consul wrote:Let's brainwash our children so they can serve unquestionabley when it comes their time to participate in the slaughter. ..






Your mother and father will sweat and they'll save
To build you a coffin and dig you a grave
Hush-a-bye little one, never you weep
For we've got a toy that can put you to sleep
Sang the crow on the cradle

Bring me my gun, and I'll shoot that bird dead
That's what your mother and father once said
The crow on the cradle, what can we do
Ah, this is a thing that I'll leave up to you
Sang the crow on the cradle
Sang the crow on the cradle
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby lupercal » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:45 pm

Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

It's a good question Percival because regardless of intentions allegedly expressed by Hamas, the history of colonial plantation suggests that the threat cannot be fully removed by any means short of exterminating the indigenous population.

So: is objecting to a policy of extermination anti-semitic? I believe it's a legitimate question so I'm going to post a poll about it. If you find the terms of the poll objectionable, please let me know.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby DoYouEverWonder » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:50 pm

Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.

If you haven't noticed, we're all being threatened with extermination at the moment?

And it won't be the first time in history that's happened and the Jewish people aren't the only ones it's happened to.

How do we deal with this threat? By living in fear and hatred? Where will that get you? Not much a life when you become the thing you hate the most.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:51 pm

crikkett wrote:
Percival wrote:
crikkett wrote:I suggest that Israel stop killing, feed the hungry, nurse the sick, give back stolen land, tear down their fucking walls, stop fucking teaching hate, and strive to make a better fucking life for all children.


I agree, if Hamas had not vowed to exterminate them all I bet that is exactly what we would do.


Is there any possibility that Hamas' threat is impotent?


Assuming that they regularly and shell Israel neighborhoods, marketplaces, malls and send suicide bombers on to buses, killing untold numbers of innocent people over the last decade, I would say the smart bet is to take their word for it when they say their desire is no peace until every Jew is exterminated from the region.

Here is the problem, Israel cannot afford to assume such a threat is meaningless, the whole world including the Jews themselves took that approach during the Holocaust and we lost 6 million because of it.


Simply put:

Never again.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby smiths » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:51 pm

actually, i have some suggestions,

a) accept that any leadership made up of western backed stooges will never be acceptable to the palestinians

b) cease collective punishment of the Palestinians immediately

c) admit that the peace process was a bogus sham designed to give israel time to consolidate its hold and convene an international conference in Jerusalem to discuss the best way to share the lands of the region so that Jewish and Palestinians have somewhere to live and have dignity and control over there own affairs (i have my own ideas about how best to achieve this but as an outsider i think its inappropriate to suggest them)

d) enforce with international co-operation whatever arrangement is agreed upon

e) rally the worlds peoples to genuinely support Jewish and Palestinian peoples to achieve a peaceful outcome for the benefit of all

(this may seem naive in its simplistic pronouncements but this issue is a hair trigger for mass slaughter and renewed holocausts aand i for one dont want to see it continue or get worse)
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:53 pm

lupercal wrote:
Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

It's a good question Percival because regardless of intentions allegedly expressed by Hamas, the history of colonial plantation suggests that the threat cannot be fully removed by any means short of exterminating the indigenous population.

So: is objecting to a policy of extermination anti-semitic? I believe it's a legitimate question so I'm going to post a poll about it. If you find the terms of the poll objectionable, please let me know.



I find no honest dialogue about this topic objectionable, by all means ask the hard questions, that's what needs to happen here during this type of discussion. What I do have a problem with is the constant personal attacks and name calling, which I have tried not to be a part of, but it is getting increasingly more difficult for me.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:55 pm

smiths wrote:actually, i have some suggestions,

a) accept that any leadership made up of western backed stooges will never be acceptable to the palestinians

b) cease collective punishment of the Palestinians immediately

c) admit that the peace process was a bogus sham designed to give israel time to consolidate its hold and convene an international conference in Jerusalem to discuss the best way to share the lands of the region so that Jewish and Palestinians have somewhere to live and have dignity and control over there own affairs (i have my own ideas about how best to achieve this but as an outsider i think its inappropriate to suggest them)

d) enforce with international co-operation whatever arrangement is agreed upon

e) rally the worlds peoples to genuinely support Jewish and Palestinian peoples to achieve a peaceful outcome for the benefit of all

(this may seem naive in its simplistic pronouncements but this issue is a hair trigger for mass slaughter and renewed holocausts aand i for one dont want to see it continue or get worse)


All but choice A seem to be a good start. Choice A however seems to allow the Palestinians to dictate who our leadership in Israel should be, I am not sure I agree with that. We dont like that the people of the Gaza elected Hamas but thats their choice, we simply note that there is a price to pay for that.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:56 pm

Percival wrote:

Simply put:

Never again.



5.4 million have died in Congo since 1998

oh and btw Iraqis aren't doing very well these days either


http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq


ok did you mean, never again but it is ok if we do it?
Last edited by seemslikeadream on Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Laodicean » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:57 pm

crikkett wrote:Is there any possibility that Hamas' threat is impotent?


This from Haaretz back in 2008:

IDF will face around 15,000 armed Palestinians if major operation in Gaza Strip goes ahead.

...

The main components of the "Hamas Army":

Order of battle: Hamas is transitioning from a terror group to a paramilitary guerrilla organization. The transition includes improvements to the command and control structure, the acquisition of better weapons and the creation of a training program.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... s-1.260281
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby smiths » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:59 pm

i meant the leadership of the Palestinians shouldnt be western backed stooges,

i didnt seriously expect the Palestinian to have a say in the Israeli leadership
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Percival » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:00 pm

DoYouEverWonder wrote:
Percival wrote:Like I have asked before, instead of the name calling and criticism why dont you tell us all how Israel is supposed to deal with the threat of extermination?

Seems funny that nobody has stepped up to the challenge of answering that. Could that be because they dont have any answers.


Now you know how Israel feels.

If you haven't noticed, we're all being threatened with extermination at the moment?

And it won't be the first time in history that's happened and the Jewish people aren't the only ones it's happened to.

How do we deal with this threat? By living in fear and hatred? Where will that get you? Not much a life when you become the thing you hate the most.



I dont know of any other situation in the world like that of Muslims and Jews, specifically Hamas and Israel.

I also dont know of any people that lost 6 million in one shebang.

I think the Jewish problem is unique personally and it is going to take unique solutions to fix it.

The first step IMO would be for the people of the Gaza to stop supporting Hamas, maybe then the people of Israel would stop supporting western backed right wing sycophants like Netanyahu, Sharon, Barak, et. al.. Like I have said before I am not a big fan of Likudniks but at the moment they seem to be the only ones willing to do what is needed to protect the people of Israel.
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