Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:40 am



I haven't gone thru this thread, how many do we need, they're all split up and now they even come in parts.

My wife says she heard on NPR that Thomas said this months ago.
Anyway, if true that makes it a little harder to understand because I'm hearing a lot of intemperate things being said now after the attack. Maybe it was said during the 2008 Gaza slaughter. Clearly there is a lot of built up resentment out there.

It's a stupid thing to say and it's surprising to hear for someone so steeped in MSM, but big deal, maybe she's just holding up a mirror because the Israelis say that all the time about the Palestinians, go to Jordan, go to Syria, go anywhere, get out. And, they act on it.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Cordelia » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:52 am

Sweejak wrote:
My wife says she heard on NPR that Thomas said this months ago.


I think the clip indicated May 27.

I also thought it looked like a set up. Good that Ellen Ratner stood by her old friend and colleague. She's right: Give her a break! She's almost 90 years old and still a class act. (Carl Hayden was 92 when he retired from the Senate and he was seen pissing in an ashtray outside a Senate elevator.)

Following the Washington Post story about Ms. Thomas being dis-invited as commencement speaker at Walt Whitman High School, a reader ironically quoted Whitman: "All faults may be forgiven of him who has perfect candor."

And, it seems important that she's been misquoted and didn't refer only to Germany and Poland, but included "...And America and everywhere else....."

It also seems Hell(en) hath no fury like (the State of Israel) scorned.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Jeff » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:06 pm

SanDiegoBuffGuy wrote:Sorry to say, Jeff, but when you say that Thomas is meaning that "Israel needs to get out of the Middle East," you are making a BIG assumption. Do I dare say, "Shame on you"?


But what exactly did Thomas mean by "Palestine" and what era is she talking about?

Given her mix of countries "they" should return to, it seems more likely that, at least in that moment of unreflective - or un-self censored-comment, she was stating a desire to see all the Jews of Israel/Palestine "go home".

Helen Thomas, it seems, had entered a time machine and was adopting the rhetoric of Palestinians circa the 1960s, before the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) changed its ideology to declare that Israelis could remain in Palestine as citizens in a unified, democratic Palestinian state.

...

But if things keep going badly in the US - a double-dip recession, weak job numbers, increasing casualties in distant battlefields, more oil and coal mining disasters, another, this time successful, terrorist attack (to name but a few possibilities) - Americans are going to start looking for people to blame. And historically, we all know who tends to get the blame when things go wrong ....

This is what Helen Thomas' words, however intemperate and even prejudiced, were telling us. And needless to say, this is precisely what the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would love to see happen - let Israel go about the business of destroying itself while they look on, waiting to pounce, just as Israel did to Palestinian society during the worst years of the al-Aqsa intifada, when the pressure led to widespread chaos and infighting among Palestinians.

The question is will Israel play according to their script and continue to defy world public opinion, slowly alienating the population of its only (until now) unequivocal benefactor, or will its leaders and so-called friends change course before it is too late?


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010 ... 77696.html
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby SanDiegoBuffGuy » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:24 pm

More assumptions.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:32 pm

Cordelia wrote:
Sweejak wrote:
My wife says she heard on NPR that Thomas said this months ago.


I think the clip indicated May 27.

I also thought it looked like a set up. Good that Ellen Ratner stood by her old friend and colleague. She's right: Give her a break! She's almost 90 years old and still a class act. (Carl Hayden was 92 when he retired from the Senate and he was seen pissing in an ashtray outside a Senate elevator.)

Following the Washington Post story about Ms. Thomas being dis-invited as commencement speaker at Walt Whitman High School, a reader ironically quoted Whitman: "All faults may be forgiven of him who has perfect candor."

And, it seems important that she's been misquoted and didn't refer only to Germany and Poland, but included "...And America and everywhere else....."

It also seems Hell(en) hath no fury like (the State of Israel) scorned.


Ok, the NPR report must have been wrong.
If I'm not mistaken though, there is some variety of religious Jews who think that Israel IS the Golden Calf. Well, speaking from that standpoint, from the standpoint a religion creating a state, I'd have to say I'd be pretty upset if the Baptists or somebody wanted to create the Baptist State, you know what I mean. Do you think they would claim Palestine or Alabama? Alternately, I think Vatican styled diplomatic states for religions might be a good idea.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby LilyPatToo » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:43 pm

Sweejak wrote:If I'm not mistaken though, there is some variety of religious Jews who think that Israel IS the Golden Calf. Well, speaking from that standpoint, from the standpoint a religion creating a state, I'd have to say I'd be pretty upset if the Baptists or somebody wanted to create the Baptist State, you know what I mean. Do you think they would claim Palestine or Alabama? Alternately, I think Vatican styled diplomatic states for religions might be a good idea.


Now that's an interesting thought--could you expand upon it?

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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:53 pm

Well, I haven't given it a great deal of thought. As Adam Curtis frequently points out good ideas can go very, very wrong, but I think it would be an interesting thought experiment to think through. What if all religions had a small state, where they could have their archives, their precious books and art and feel the safety that being a state affords. And even offer refuge and asylum. I like the idea of them having a diplomatic say so and it would be most interesting to see what they would come up with even if only amongst themselves.
Last edited by Sweejak on Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby crikkett » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:55 pm

I wonder what Helen's last question was.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby alwyn » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:30 pm

Jeff wrote:
SanDiegoBuffGuy wrote:Sorry to say, Jeff, but when you say that Thomas is meaning that "Israel needs to get out of the Middle East," you are making a BIG assumption. Do I dare say, "Shame on you"?


But what exactly did Thomas mean by "Palestine" and what era is she talking about?

Given her mix of countries "they" should return to, it seems more likely that, at least in that moment of unreflective - or un-self censored-comment, she was stating a desire to see all the Jews of Israel/Palestine "go home".

Helen Thomas, it seems, had entered a time machine and was adopting the rhetoric of Palestinians circa the 1960s, before the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) changed its ideology to declare that Israelis could remain in Palestine as citizens in a unified, democratic Palestinian state.

...

But if things keep going badly in the US - a double-dip recession, weak job numbers, increasing casualties in distant battlefields, more oil and coal mining disasters, another, this time successful, terrorist attack (to name but a few possibilities) - Americans are going to start looking for people to blame. And historically, we all know who tends to get the blame when things go wrong ....

This is what Helen Thomas' words, however intemperate and even prejudiced, were telling us. And needless to say, this is precisely what the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would love to see happen - let Israel go about the business of destroying itself while they look on, waiting to pounce, just as Israel did to Palestinian society during the worst years of the al-Aqsa intifada, when the pressure led to widespread chaos and infighting among Palestinians.

The question is will Israel play according to their script and continue to defy world public opinion, slowly alienating the population of its only (until now) unequivocal benefactor, or will its leaders and so-called friends change course before it is too late?


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010 ... 77696.html


Jeff, got to disagree with you here. This was posted in the 'opinion' section of Al Jazeera, (who, IMHO, has a much more 'balanced' coverage of the news than most of our media). As such, it is not factual, it is subjective discourse. He (Levine, the author) also speaks of remarks made during protests for the flotilla, and yet, supposedly, this happened before the flotilla event? Can't have it both ways.

Everyone has such a knee jerk reaction to 'go back to Germany, or Poland, or the US. It is not frikkin 1943! Except, maybe, in the minds of the IDF. Levine's stated OPINION about what Helen said is not even what Helen said when you examine her direct quote. Levine is also Jewish, and, apparently has the aforementioned knee-jerk reaction, and apparent prejudice.

Just for s&*(# and giggles, here is something that someone sent me regarding the donneybrooke surrounding this issue. The main video is English, it was put out in Spanish, with Spanish subtitles.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby alwyn » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:07 pm

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/right- ... helen.html

Ari Fleischer was the motivating force (along with AIPAC, I'm sure) in getting Helen fired. If you examine his comments in the huffington post link, you will see that he is the one who raised the whole holocaust ghost. Helen was talking about something else entirely. He misquoted and mis-contexted, and led the witch hunt to get her fired, by emailing everyone his version of the quotes. She was railroaded. Truth will out, and I hope Ari's teeny tiny little pecker drops off. But, what do you expect from Mr. 'Mass Weapons of Destruction in Iraq?' :evil:
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby SanDiegoBuffGuy » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:17 pm

It would be nice to get clarification from Thomas herself - and she would do a wonderful job if given 5 minutes to clarify - but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. All we are getting is a "forget about it and move on" sort of apology, which is really too bad. I'm a little disappointed in her, actually, becuase she could have used this incident to bring wider attention to the real issues, what she was really trying to get at.
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby LilyPatToo » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:40 pm

That was my hope too--that she'd use it as an opportunity to communicate on the issue. Perhaps the MSM is blocking such attempts? Applying covert pressure? Wish I knew...she's been a hero of mine since I was a teenager.

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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby stickdog99 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:47 pm

Even if Thomas said all Jews should vacate Israel (which is a ridiculous stretch, IMHO), I fail to see how even such a comment can be characterized as a racist comment that justifies dismissal from employment.

Such a comment would clearly be highly unpopular in the United States and could certainly be characterized as extreme. But how is it a racist comment?
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby alwyn » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:01 pm

stickdog99 wrote:Even if Thomas said all Jews should vacate Israel (which is a ridiculous stretch, IMHO), I fail to see how even such a comment can be characterized as a racist comment that justifies dismissal from employment.

Such a comment would clearly be highly unpopular in the United States and could certainly be characterized as extreme. But how is it a racist comment?


It's only a racist comment to the racists. :jumping:
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Re: Helen Thomas Retires After Controversial Remarks

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:05 pm

The latest from Arthur Silber.

A Friendly Note to Many of Israel's Defenders
June 08, 2010

From the sickeningly rancid, foully infected underbelly of the Outraged Furor! over Helen Thomas's violation of The Sacred Rules Concerning What Is Permissible to Say About Israel, there is one "argument" offered by Israel's defenders that might be among my favorite debating tactics of recent years.

In their efforts to prove beyond all dispute that Thomas is a vicious anti-Semite who loathes every Jew who has ever lived and longs for the day when every single one of them is dead, these defenders of notably horrifying and murderous State terrorism gleefully spit out: "It's just like saying, 'Hey, all you Black Americans! Go back to Africa!' And we all know what it would mean if someone said that!"

I've heard and read this a huge number of times in the last several days. I am forced to admit that the comparison is staggering in its power. It makes the point with concision, and the historic parallels are overwhelming. To review briefly, and despite the very painful familiarity of these facts: significant numbers of Africans voluntarily, indeed enthusiastically, migrated westward and took over large parts of the eastern seaboard of what was then the United States beginning in the mid-1800s. They were able to do this because they had the unending support in a multitude of forms of the most powerful Nation-States of the time. The Africans claimed that a special dispensation from ... well, something or other ... ordained that the land mass designated by the name "United States" was uniquely theirs. The Nation-States that made possible the Africans' conquest and domination agreed.

In the ensuing century and a half, the Africans slaughtered most of those they found living in the United States, beginning in the eastern states and then steadily continuing their campaign of murder and destruction across the continent. The few survivors fled further and further west. The Africans inexorably pursued them, all still with the backing of certain immensely powerful Nation-States. Eventually, the Africans drove the remaining previous inhabitants of the United States into just three or four very small areas in (what were then called) Arizona and New Mexico. From that point on and continuing to the present, the Africans forbade virtually anyone and anything from moving into or out of these impossibly restricted areas. Although it is rarely talked about or admitted, people will eventually acknowledge, when pressed, that the Americans forced to remain in these concentration camps must endure conditions that are among the most nightmarish on earth.

Given this history, well-known to every young school child in the world, it is indeed exactly the same to say that the Israelis should "get out of Palestine" and to demand that the Africans should "get out of the United States." The argument is unanswerable to a degree that causes me profound embarrassment and distress. I greatly resent having the pathetic shabbiness of my views revealed in this manner.

But perhaps I might offer an exceedingly minor piece of unsolicited and doubtless unwanted advice to many of those who regularly defend Israel's systematic State terrorism, extended entirely free of charge and only because I'm a hell of a sweet guy:

You don't need to work at making yourselves stupid. Seriously.

On a related note: it is not "brave" or "courageous" of you in the slightest degree to side with unanswerable power, or to act as enforcers of permissible speech. To the contrary, that choice is one of the least courageous choices imaginable. It is also remarkably, astonishingly ... well, stupid. But I've told you that you don't need to work at that.

I have a number of other, considerably more complex points I want to make about this Helen Thomas episode. I'll get to all that in the next day or so. But I came across this particular "argument" several times again this morning. So I wanted to get this out of the way.

For me, one of the more gut-wrenching aspects of today's monstrous culture, a culture that kills each and every manifestation of empathy, understanding and compassion with relentlessly systematic determination, is the combination of unending destruction, cruelty, violence and murder with the most abysmally wretched depths of stupidity.

In certain respects, that is my own personal nightmare. And so, so many people work with such diligence to make it real every single day. They needn't work at that, either, and I desperately wish they would stop.

Assuredly, they will not.

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