What constitutes Misogyny?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Jeff » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:56 am

norton ash wrote:I love humanity, I just can't stand people. Especially f**king Canadian men.


Everyone from our smug and crumbling liberal class to the rock 'em, sock 'em lumpen hoser. It's the perfect kind of hatred that comes only from knowing oneself.

I believe the root of misogyny is fear of women, and that was first planted thousands of years ago in our priestly dread of the natural world.

Heidi Laura, Lars von Trier's "misogyny consultant" on Antichrist:

The subject is as deep and wide as human civilisation itself. There is no age without its anxiety about women, and the texts and images range from sophisticated and witty to gruesome.

Call me evil, but I think the dark shadows of civilisation deserve to be seen and reflected on rather than ignored. As I moved through the sources, I realised that the age-old dichotomy between supposedly rational man and supposedly wild and uncontrollable woman, ruled by impulse and desire, has never left us.

Sources were hardly scarce: Max Weininger's early-20th-century bio-psychological description of woman as not in control of herself was close to Nietzsche's cynical reflections on the cunning nature of woman, who wants to control men, and therefore must be controlled in turn. "You are going to women? Do not forget the whip!", says one of his aphorisms.

...

The male authors all seemed to agree on one thing: woman is intrinsically more connected to nature than man. This is why man rightfully fears woman: just like nature, she is beyond control.

The indictment against women I composed for Von Trier sums up the many misogynistic views all the way back to Aristotle, whose observations of nature led him to conclude that "the female is a mutilated male". Should we avoid staring into that abyss or should we acknowledge this male anxiety, perhaps even note with satisfaction that women are mostly described as very powerful beings by these anxious men?
User avatar
Jeff
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11134
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 8:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:55 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:
cwatcher wrote:mascara ads bug me because they seem to assume that women are dumb enough to believe that there are what amount to paint products which can curl or lengthen lashes. !


Yah, but mascara really does make your lashes appear longer if you have thin or light eyelashes.


:ohno:


No, really, it demonstrably does. Don't mean to derail the thread with such a persnickety little detail, but it does.

Personally I find this more disturbing:



But that's me.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
brainpanhandler
 
Posts: 5114
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:38 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:04 pm

I don't think that women are hated as much as they are objectified.

When rap artists (or is it hip hop?) use the terms "bitches" and "hoes", it is a reflection of their objectification of women, IMO, not their hatred.



Ditto for advertising...

Image

and the media...



The objectification of women may be more on target than any hatred of them.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
23
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:57 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:27 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:Yah, but mascara really does make your lashes appear longer if you have thin or light eyelashes.


:ohno:

brainpanhandler wrote:No, really, it demonstrably does. Don't mean to derail the thread with such a persnickety little detail, but it does.


length vs girth debates are more suited to threads about men's issues. ;) That being said mascara APPEARS TO THICKEN lashes, sure. DARKEN, yes. Lengthen, no. Curl? you gotta be kidding. fwiw I hate leaving the house without wearing some, just so you're clear that I'm not a make-up basher, particularly mascara. Just the ads. I cannot figure out why there are so many of them and why they feel they have to say anything tricky about it in the first place. It is what it is.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:32 pm

23 wrote:I don't think that women are hated as much as they are objectified.

When rap artists (or is it hip hop?) use the terms "bitches" and "hoes", it is a reflection of their objectification of women, IMO, not their hatred.



Ditto for advertising...

Image

and the media...




The objectification of women may be more on target than any hatred of them.


You're not going to get an argument from about whether or not women are objectified. In this corporatist/consumerist culture we ALL are, and all the parts of all of us are (see mascara debate above )

Misogyny sure does have an objectification component, but what I"m trying to get to is an understanding of hate.. in this case where does objectification cross the line from being obviously motivated by money to being motivated by hate? Is there a line?
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:40 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Misoyny sure does have an objectification component, but what I"m trying to get to is an understanding of hate.. in this case where does objectification cross the line from being obviously motivated by money to being motivated by hate? Is there a line?


I'm not saying that objectification is a component of misogyny (hatred). I'm saying that the latter is often confused for the former. And that the former is a lot more prevalent than the latter.

Objectification is often an outgrowth from subordination, or women are of less value then men and/or should be subordinate to them.

Christianity and Islam are great seed sowers for those seeds of subordination too.

The Bible and the Qur'an don't propagate hatred of women. But they do outrightly propagate women being subordinate to men.

Subordination -> objectification -> abuse.
Last edited by 23 on Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
23
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:57 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby AlicetheKurious » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:41 pm

I DO NOT BELIEVE that Burger King ad.

Is that a real ad?

I'm boycotting Burger King.
"If you're not careful the newspapers will have you hating the oppressed and loving the people doing the oppressing." - Malcolm X
User avatar
AlicetheKurious
 
Posts: 5348
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:20 am
Location: Egypt
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:54 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:I DO NOT BELIEVE that Burger King ad.

Is that a real ad?

I'm boycotting Burger King.


Yes, it's a real ad. Just Startpage or Ixquick "BK Super Seven Incher" to confirm that.

And I'm glad to hear that you practice boycotting as well.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
23
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:57 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:10 pm

Actually, 23, that video you posted above does seem to illustrate a level of hatred towards women. That is inasmuch as hate can be unconscious. The video demonstrates that some people become so comfortable with their disdain for others that they don't feel any shame in objectifying, denigrating and harassing those others. That's pretty close to hate, imo.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
User avatar
Canadian_watcher
 
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:30 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby WakeUpAndLive » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:20 pm

Jeff wrote:
norton ash wrote:I love humanity, I just can't stand people. Especially f**king Canadian men.


Everyone from our smug and crumbling liberal class to the rock 'em, sock 'em lumpen hoser. It's the perfect kind of hatred that comes only from knowing oneself.

I believe the root of misogyny is fear of women, and that was first planted thousands of years ago in our priestly dread of the natural world.

Heidi Laura, Lars von Trier's "misogyny consultant" on Antichrist:

The subject is as deep and wide as human civilisation itself. There is no age without its anxiety about women, and the texts and images range from sophisticated and witty to gruesome.

Call me evil, but I think the dark shadows of civilisation deserve to be seen and reflected on rather than ignored. As I moved through the sources, I realised that the age-old dichotomy between supposedly rational man and supposedly wild and uncontrollable woman, ruled by impulse and desire, has never left us.

Sources were hardly scarce: Max Weininger's early-20th-century bio-psychological description of woman as not in control of herself was close to Nietzsche's cynical reflections on the cunning nature of woman, who wants to control men, and therefore must be controlled in turn. "You are going to women? Do not forget the whip!", says one of his aphorisms.

...

The male authors all seemed to agree on one thing: woman is intrinsically more connected to nature than man. This is why man rightfully fears woman: just like nature, she is beyond control.

The indictment against women I composed for Von Trier sums up the many misogynistic views all the way back to Aristotle, whose observations of nature led him to conclude that "the female is a mutilated male". Should we avoid staring into that abyss or should we acknowledge this male anxiety, perhaps even note with satisfaction that women are mostly described as very powerful beings by these anxious men?


After skimming the first couples pages, this is the only post I need to read in this thread and feel satisfied. The article fits so much into very few words. I've always had a similar view and this just rings true to me on many aspects. Thanks for the link to the article Jeff.
User avatar
WakeUpAndLive
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:49 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brekin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:21 pm

23 wrote:


AlicetheKurious wrote:
I DO NOT BELIEVE that Burger King ad.

Is that a real ad?

I'm boycotting Burger King.


Yes, it's a real ad. Just Startpage or Ixquick "BK Super Seven Incher" to confirm that.

And I'm glad to hear that you practice boycotting as well.


You'll want to skip Arby's to then:

Image

And MacDonalds:

Image

And Peta seems to Adbust a little too well these days:

Image
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:22 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Actually, 23, that video you posted above does seem to illustrate a level of hatred towards women. That is inasmuch as hate can be unconscious. The video demonstrates that some people become so comfortable with their disdain for others that they don't feel any shame in objectifying, denigrating and harassing those others. That's pretty close to hate, imo.


In my past life, CW, I dealt with many managers and executives.

They exhibited generous portions of condescending, differentiated behavior towards the female members of their staff. It was quite apparent, to me, that they viewed them as subordinate to them.

I also got to know their wives at certain functions. Saw the same transaction between them and their wives.

Did not see evidence of hatred so much, though. Rather, they viewed women as subordinate objects.

Just saying that subordination/objectification is what ails my male counterparts more than hatred.
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
User avatar
23
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:57 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:25 pm

Ha. I boycott fast food joints, and the only time we go to B King is when my girlfriend craves it. I doubt she'd be put off by that ad, as she generally shrugs and darkly accepts that most advertising is going to be sexist, classist and will seek out the places where we fear, hurt or hunger... because that's how it works.

I'll show the ad to her and get the same 'oh for f**k's sake' reserved for bad drivers, kids and drunks with 1 am fireworks that get the dogs barking, or the few occasions where she watches TV or catches me listening to the Grateful Dead.

She calls RI pornography for depressives. :mrgreen:

She won't boycott, because she believes that nothing's going to change much and she wants the onion rings.

We're quite different, but I can dig it. :partydance:
Zen horse
User avatar
norton ash
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Canada
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby crikkett » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:32 pm

Canadian_watcher wrote:Actually, 23, that video you posted above does seem to illustrate a level of hatred towards women. That is inasmuch as hate can be unconscious. The video demonstrates that some people become so comfortable with their disdain for others that they don't feel any shame in objectifying, denigrating and harassing those others. That's pretty close to hate, imo.


Don't you think that hate is a stronger emotion than disdain? Hate is obsessive, hate rages, hate is irrational. Disdain, well, meh.


(OT: Jeff, this :fawked: :fawked: :fawked: almost makes up for you not giving us a hug smilie)
crikkett
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:03 pm
Blog: View Blog (5)

Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby crikkett » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:41 pm

23 wrote:Image


norton ash wrote:the only time we go to B King is when my girlfriend craves it.



:rofl:

norton ash wrote:She calls RI pornography for depressives. :mrgreen:


So does my husband!

:jumping:
crikkett
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:03 pm
Blog: View Blog (5)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 175 guests