Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Simulist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:21 am

slomo wrote:I've spent a lot of time on RI for the last few weeks - more than I can afford - mostly because a few personal and professional matters have been discouraging. It seemed like a decent refuge for awhile. But, we have these conversations, and does anything change? Do we gain the courage, knowledge, or rhetorical style to educate our real life friends and family members? I don't think so, because most of our real-life loved ones are impenetrable to this kind of information, no matter how it is delivered.

Not only do I agree with that, I want to tell you something.

I used to think it was my role to educate people, but I've pretty much abandoned that illusion. Me educate? Bah... It may be that I have something of value to say... sometimes... to someone... but... odds are that my opportunity to do so won't likely mesh with their preparedness. (And/or vice versa!) So why agonize over it?

The reason I come to this forum is simply this: because I like most of the folks here, including you by the way -- and I have a few things in common with some of them. Not because I have a burning desire to educate you or anybody else "here" or "out there." Twenty years from now I WILL laugh at "Simulist - edition 2012," and wonder how in the hell could I have ever thought that.

Cheers, Slomo. You're a good guy.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:31 am

Simulist wrote:
slomo wrote:I've spent a lot of time on RI for the last few weeks - more than I can afford - mostly because a few personal and professional matters have been discouraging. It seemed like a decent refuge for awhile. But, we have these conversations, and does anything change? Do we gain the courage, knowledge, or rhetorical style to educate our real life friends and family members? I don't think so, because most of our real-life loved ones are impenetrable to this kind of information, no matter how it is delivered.

Not only do I agree with that, I want to tell you something.

I used to think it was my role to educate people, but I've abandoned that illusion. Me educate? Bah... It may be that I have something of value to say... sometimes... to someone... but... odds are that my opportunity to do so won't likely mesh with their preparedness. (And/or vice versa!) So why agonize over it?

The reason I come to this forum is simply this: because I like most of the folks here, including you by the way -- and I have a few things in common with some of them. Not because I have a burning desire to educate you or anybody else "here" or "out there." Twenty years from now I WILL laugh at "Simulist - edition 2012," and wonder how in the hell could I have ever thought that.

Cheers, Slomo. You're a good guy.

Thanks, Sim. I like you and almost everybody here as well. And some of the topics that are discussed are of interest to me and not discussed much anywhere else (at least not with the same cognitive distance, a style I have come to respect from my training in spite of the severe circumscription of admissible topics in my professional life).

It's really kind of a resource allocation thing for me - where is my time most profitably spent? Tonight I'm kind of fried, so I guess it's fine to hang out at RI, but I should probably avoid the morning and noontime reads.

I still kind of dream about making the world a better place, but the unlikeliness of such a thing ever happening does make me wonder whether I should just try to scam the system like all of the really successful people in my professional environment have figured out.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Simulist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:36 am

slomo wrote:I still kind of dream about making the world a better place, but the unlikeliness of such a thing ever happening does make me wonder whether I should just try to scam the system like all of the really successful people in my professional environment have figured out.

You may want to give it a try; your intellect could make you a success. But... you do strike me as a person of integrity, so I figure you'll eventually be saying "NOW what the fuck am I doing?" and stop back by here for one of Willow's damn fine beverages in The Saloon.

Take care, buddy. :)
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:19 am

I suspect that this, like tattoo-removal, will be an increasingly big thing in the very near future: regretting the amount of time spent online. It's certainly an understandable worry, because online existence is indeed a kind of phantom existence, and it's a totally new medium (barely a decade old, for most of us). Life is short, and it is hellish to feel you are wasting the only time you have.

Yet I'm not sure that posting here is very much different from publishing a short story or a newspaper article or an academic paper old-style, i.e., offline. Most of those things also amounted to very little in the big picture. Not to mention conversations, whether they were held jocularly around the water cooler or passionately in bed, or even very thoughtfully in a TV studio in front of millions.

The thing about online "publication", though -- whether it's a stupid one-liner on a message-board or a brilliant 5,000-word blogpost -- is that it's nearly always anonymous. Jeff, for instance, is very unusual among bloggers in writing (and publishing offline) under his own name. But practically everything on this message board was written, essentially, by nobody nowhere. There are many good sides to this. (It would take a long time to go into this.*) But it's certainly a sobering thought that, if any of us were to die tomorrow, most of our friends and families would know little or nothing about anything we've written her, or elsewhere online (maybe under different pseudonyms). All of it would be literally nothing, to them at least. There's no glory in it, and certainly no financial advantage, and you can't put any of it on your cv. In fact, much of it might suffice to lose us our jobs, or to prevent us getting a new one. (Are You An Aspie? Are You A Socialist? Are You A Conspiracy Theorist? Etcetera.) In the logic of capitalism it's purely wasted time, like the time spent sleeping or fucking or singing or giving someone directions or watching the wind in the trees or playing football in the park or staring silently into space. I think that's what I like about it: nobody can turn it into money.

*A messageboard may not be The Lancet or the TLS or the NYT, but at least it's not Facebook or LinkedIn.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:30 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:I suspect that this, like tattoo-removal, will be an increasingly big thing in the very near future: regretting the amount of time spent online. It's certainly an understandable worry, because online existence is indeed a kind of phantom existence, and it's a totally new medium (barely a decade old, for most of us). Life is short, and it is hellish to feel you are wasting the only time you have.

Yet I'm not sure that posting here is very much different from publishing a short story or a newspaper article or an academic paper old-style, i.e., offline. Most of those things also amounted to very little in the big picture. Not to mention conversations, whether they were held jocularly around the water cooler or passionately in bed, or even very thoughtfully in a TV studio in front of millions.

The thing about online "publication", though -- whether it's a stupid one-liner on a message-board or a brilliant 5,000-word blogpost -- is that it's nearly always anonymous. Jeff, for instance, is very unusual among bloggers in writing (and publishing offline) under his own name. But practically everything on this message board was written, essentially, by nobody nowhere. There are many good sides to this. (It would take a long time to go into this.*) But it's certainly a sobering thought that, if any of us were to die tomorrow, most of our friends and families would know little or nothing about any of it. It would be literally nothing, to them at least. There's no glory in it, and certainly no financial advantage, and you can't put any of it on your cv. In fact, much of it might suffice to lose us our jobs, or to prevent us getting a new one. (Are You An Aspie? Are You A Conspiracy Theorist? Etcetera.) In the logic of capitalism it's purely wasted time, like the time spent sleeping or fucking or singing or giving someone directions or watching the wind in the trees or playing football in the park or staring silently into space. I think that's what I like about it. Nobody can turn it into money.

*A messageboard may not be The Lancet or the TLS or the NYT, but at least it's not Facebook or LinkedIn.

To be fair, I'll credit my participation on fora such as RI and Reddit with becoming a better writer and even a better public speaker, both of which have value in my profession.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Project Willow » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:49 am

I just want to briefly raise my hand and point out a few exceptions.

I'm not anonymous, and many of my friends know about this place and about some of you. I've met in person nearly 20 people who've posted on RI and numerous other lurkers. I've gotten drunk with and embarrassed myself in front of more than one of you. I believe that is the case with a few other groups of RI folk as well. :moresarcasm

As for changing the world, as bks reminded me not too long ago when I was having a bad time of it, outside of certain scenarios it's very difficult to measure the impact of your actions. You just never know until for one odd reason or another somehow an anecdote gets back to you. There are a lot of silent watchers here. If you're expressing concern over a topic that the rest of society has sidelined, there's probably someone reading who feels a little more validated and less isolated. If you're contributing knowledge and insight about important topics, or humor or creativity or just about anything and doing so in a thoughtful manner, you're doing good.

That's my take anyway.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:35 am

Since I crossposted snowcrash from the other forum, I shall now post his response after seeing this thread:

snowcrash wrote:
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7489

Nicholas wrote:This thread rehashed here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33940&p=444983#p444983


Some great comments there.

Like this: (wall of text line break relief inserted)

sfnate wrote:The Internet is a novelty-production machine. Recombinant knowledge is assembled from chaotic thought-forms, which are inserted into the maelstrom at the speed of light. Under these conditions, self-similar information instantly coalesces into fractal assemblages of aggregated knowledge, group-cognitive structures that often provide epistemological refuge for magical thinking. To the extent that the Internet is a separate universe of thought and (virtual) experience, it offers its own proto-physical laws, with conditions that are favorable to alchemical (in contrast to scientific) methods. In this digital environment, science and other instruments of rationality are analogous to, and often received as, grey alien visitors possessing an indecipherable alphabet and unintelligle agendas. Novelty-production in this realm is a species of Ahrimanic evolution, where the energies of intellect and spirit are converted into the diabolic logic of schizoid isolation from the maternal/material dwelling of embodied flesh.

The tension between these worlds we simultaneously inhabit can be described and experienced as a kind of gnostic rejection of the real, except neither place is intuitively felt as really real, and the possibility of "knowing" is therefore terminally corrupted by doubt and confusion. Under these circumstances conspiracy cultures flourish like electronic mold in a digital petri dish--a metaphorical condition that figuratively implies the existance of a laboratory. Whether the experimental conditions are a carefully constructed project of alienated intelligence or the mad inventions of a demented and suicidal nihilism, it's impossible to tell, and probably no less fatal in either case. The hope remains, as it has always been, in the transcendant function that regulates the psycho-physical operations of reality, and describes true knowledge as the middle place between these worlds.


And this post:

bks wrote:I don't anymore. There is an error in snowcrash's acceptance of the frame that equates the evidence-based movements that cast warranted scrutiny on government lies, with the adolescent ejaculations of idiocy one can find in the comments section of any online news article these days. Nothing links them except the ill-fitting term "conspiracy theory".

This has to be stopped. They are not the same species of thing, even though media and academics insist on denoting them by the same term. Until that con job is exposed and derided, we can forget making sizeable inroads with the larger public.


That's not what I meant: I actually agree with bks. The problem is, and if I haven't alluded to it myself in the past, it has certainly been discussed before and is a running theme @ SLC: the subjective frame of reference, often ideologically motivated (hence, republicanism) which decides which "conspiracy theories" are deemed acceptable. Fox News peddles plenty of conspiracy theories and most if not all are eagerly glommed onto by their viewership, also the Republican Party's ideological base.

I've thought about this a lot and after much contemplation, I've concluded that much of this conspiracy theory evaluation, attempting to pinpoint them on a sliding scale of 'sanity' (is it totally nuts? scientifically possible but baseless? merely unlikely? plausible? likely) is usually arbitrary and subjective, because the criteria cited are merely the personal projections of the critic in question. Through years of doing this I've come up with a personal framework to separate the wheat from the chaff, something everybody on the web, spouting their opinions, seems to feel Exclusively Qualified and Uniquely Equipped to do.

Hence, Alexander Cockburn thinks 9/11 Truthers are nuts who think no planers are nuts but Pat Curley and James Bennet probably think Cockburn is a paranoid left wing nutter.

Who occupies the correct position on this epistemological spectrum? Intuitively, it can be provisionally concluded that anyone who rejects all conspiracy theories as false as well as anyone who embraces all conspiracy theories as true is fundamentally in error.

Note that 'theory' seemingly connotes 'undecidedness' to people who abuse that component of the usually derogatorily employed term 'conspiracy theory', rehashing the whole 'what does the word theory' really imply-discussion.

There are lots of layers and dimensions to this discussion. I was venting my frustration about how the soup of conspiracy claims expertly obfuscates the real issues. What is lacking is a reliable reference frame, as well as broad acceptance of such a reference frame. Everybody has their own definition of 'true', 'scientific' and 'plausible'. Suffice to say, I can't convey the full breadth of this topic in a short reply without leaving much to be desired in terms of scope, clarity and detail.

I'm sure we can all agree that promoting speculation as hard fact is irresponsible, but the term 'speculation' in itself already conveys a certain pre-judgment on the claim under discussion.

bks suggests I might be rejecting 9/11 Truth altogether based on what he's read, but I don't... the question again becomes where you position yourself on the 'what am I prepared to be open-minded about'-axis and where you pin the claims you're evaluating on the 'virtual slider' of plausibility, usually subjectively determined, even though many self-styled 'skeptics' may claim near omniscient qualities of factual judgment, while constantly undermining their own stature in that regard by demonstrating incompetence in various logical, philosophical, social or empirical fields.

Many truthers constantly complain their critics won't examine the evidence before rejecting it, and this is the core of the problem. On the one hand, practicality demands a priori rejection of some claims, on the other hand, some claims can never be properly evaluated in the first place unless they are carefully examined.

Most critics lack the skills to carefully examine the claims put forth by the 9/11 Truth Movement, which means they choose a priori rejection instead.

Again, when is a priori rejection justified? On whose authority? By what method? Using which reference frame determined by who based on what? I've seen plenty of charlatans claiming ownership of that reference frame, and this can only be resolved by getting into the nitty gritty. However, none of us have endless resources to follow every branch of the big conspiracy tree growing out of control on the web. As time progresses and the internet expands, the shape of the wheat/chaff curve approaches asymptotic. :wink:
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:46 am

JackRiddler wrote:Since I crossposted snowcrash from the other forum, I shall now post his response after seeing this thread:

snowcrash wrote:
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7489

Nicholas wrote:This thread rehashed here:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 83#p444983


Some great comments there.

Like this: (wall of text line break relief inserted)

sfnate wrote:The Internet is a novelty-production machine. Recombinant knowledge is assembled from chaotic thought-forms, which are inserted into the maelstrom at the speed of light. Under these conditions, self-similar information instantly coalesces into fractal assemblages of aggregated knowledge, group-cognitive structures that often provide epistemological refuge for magical thinking. To the extent that the Internet is a separate universe of thought and (virtual) experience, it offers its own proto-physical laws, with conditions that are favorable to alchemical (in contrast to scientific) methods. In this digital environment, science and other instruments of rationality are analogous to, and often received as, grey alien visitors possessing an indecipherable alphabet and unintelligle agendas. Novelty-production in this realm is a species of Ahrimanic evolution, where the energies of intellect and spirit are converted into the diabolic logic of schizoid isolation from the maternal/material dwelling of embodied flesh.

The tension between these worlds we simultaneously inhabit can be described and experienced as a kind of gnostic rejection of the real, except neither place is intuitively felt as really real, and the possibility of "knowing" is therefore terminally corrupted by doubt and confusion. Under these circumstances conspiracy cultures flourish like electronic mold in a digital petri dish--a metaphorical condition that figuratively implies the existance of a laboratory. Whether the experimental conditions are a carefully constructed project of alienated intelligence or the mad inventions of a demented and suicidal nihilism, it's impossible to tell, and probably no less fatal in either case. The hope remains, as it has always been, in the transcendant function that regulates the psycho-physical operations of reality, and describes true knowledge as the middle place between these worlds.


And this post:

bks wrote:I don't anymore. There is an error in snowcrash's acceptance of the frame that equates the evidence-based movements that cast warranted scrutiny on government lies, with the adolescent ejaculations of idiocy one can find in the comments section of any online news article these days. Nothing links them except the ill-fitting term "conspiracy theory".

This has to be stopped. They are not the same species of thing, even though media and academics insist on denoting them by the same term. Until that con job is exposed and derided, we can forget making sizeable inroads with the larger public.


That's not what I meant: I actually agree with bks. The problem is, and if I haven't alluded to it myself in the past, it has certainly been discussed before and is a running theme @ SLC: the subjective frame of reference, often ideologically motivated (hence, republicanism) which decides which "conspiracy theories" are deemed acceptable. Fox News peddles plenty of conspiracy theories and most if not all are eagerly glommed onto by their viewership, also the Republican Party's ideological base.

I've thought about this a lot and after much contemplation, I've concluded that much of this conspiracy theory evaluation, attempting to pinpoint them on a sliding scale of 'sanity' (is it totally nuts? scientifically possible but baseless? merely unlikely? plausible? likely) is usually arbitrary and subjective, because the criteria cited are merely the personal projections of the critic in question. Through years of doing this I've come up with a personal framework to separate the wheat from the chaff, something everybody on the web, spouting their opinions, seems to feel Exclusively Qualified and Uniquely Equipped to do.

Hence, Alexander Cockburn thinks 9/11 Truthers are nuts who think no planers are nuts but Pat Curley and James Bennet probably think Cockburn is a paranoid left wing nutter.

Who occupies the correct position on this epistemological spectrum? Intuitively, it can be provisionally concluded that anyone who rejects all conspiracy theories as false as well as anyone who embraces all conspiracy theories as true is fundamentally in error.

Note that 'theory' seemingly connotes 'undecidedness' to people who abuse that component of the usually derogatorily employed term 'conspiracy theory', rehashing the whole 'what does the word theory' really imply-discussion.

There are lots of layers and dimensions to this discussion. I was venting my frustration about how the soup of conspiracy claims expertly obfuscates the real issues. What is lacking is a reliable reference frame, as well as broad acceptance of such a reference frame. Everybody has their own definition of 'true', 'scientific' and 'plausible'. Suffice to say, I can't convey the full breadth of this topic in a short reply without leaving much to be desired in terms of scope, clarity and detail.

I'm sure we can all agree that promoting speculation as hard fact is irresponsible, but the term 'speculation' in itself already conveys a certain pre-judgment on the claim under discussion.

bks suggests I might be rejecting 9/11 Truth altogether based on what he's read, but I don't... the question again becomes where you position yourself on the 'what am I prepared to be open-minded about'-axis and where you pin the claims you're evaluating on the 'virtual slider' of plausibility, usually subjectively determined, even though many self-styled 'skeptics' may claim near omniscient qualities of factual judgment, while constantly undermining their own stature in that regard by demonstrating incompetence in various logical, philosophical, social or empirical fields.

Many truthers constantly complain their critics won't examine the evidence before rejecting it, and this is the core of the problem. On the one hand, practicality demands a priori rejection of some claims, on the other hand, some claims can never be properly evaluated in the first place unless they are carefully examined.

Most critics lack the skills to carefully examine the claims put forth by the 9/11 Truth Movement, which means they choose a priori rejection instead.

Again, when is a priori rejection justified? On whose authority? By what method? Using which reference frame determined by who based on what? I've seen plenty of charlatans claiming ownership of that reference frame, and this can only be resolved by getting into the nitty gritty. However, none of us have endless resources to follow every branch of the big conspiracy tree growing out of control on the web. As time progresses and the internet expands, the shape of the wheat/chaff curve approaches asymptotic. :wink:

I'm starting to think epistemology is a dead end. In the same way that I worry that my chosen profession - epidemiology (which is really just epistemology applied to medicine and public heath) - is a dead end. Do words mean anything? Do theories mean anything? I begin to believe they are just levers used by others to impose specific frames and effect certain behaviors. And I also begin to worry that the sign system of most CT is a clever machine used to corral its victims into a state of helpless inaction. In light of the events of earlier today here at RI, what is on my mind is the failure of facts and reason to effect anything other than the illusion of fact and reason, papered over raw desire which is the true fluid substance being conducted through pipes and ducts and cognitive channels, as if some higher authorities have worked out the Navier-Stokes equations for mind.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:55 am

The issue is not epistemological but legal and political. Did the Bush administration fulfil the burden of proof*, according to well-established & time-honoured US legal principles, against the 19 alleged culprits? No, they most certainly did not (and they never even pretended that they had done so). Was their own behaviour suspicious enough to justify interrogating several of them as Persons of Interest, according to well-established & time-honoured US legal principles? Yes, it most certainly was.

But what you gonna do about it? Make a citizen's arrest of Dick Cheney? Good luck with that in the Homeland Security state. Send me a postcard from Guantanamo Bay, if you can get it past the censors somehow.

Epistemology, schmepistemology. The decisive factor here is quite simply superior force.

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No. XII.1 - Distribution of burden of proof

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Hammer of Los » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:31 am

...

Epistemology is not a dead end.

Epistemology is at the sharp end of the sweet science.

...
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:37 am

Slomo,

I struggle with my purpose on a daily basis.

Why am I here at RI?

Why do I blog?

Why do I attempt to engage my friends (well, they USED to be friends, now most of them are really just shadows at my periphery) in dialogues designed to draw them out of the intellectual and emotional shelters that they've constructed for themselves?

Why do I get into shouting matches with my father?

Why do I constantly go out of my way in an attempt to keep informed and to make sense of the world when I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that life would be much easier for me if I just put my head down and became a well-oiled cog in the machine?

Lots of people have told me that I have a martyr complex, and that I just get off on feeling superior to everyone else, but I don't think that's it at all. I think that I do it all because I couldn't live with myself if I didn't.

Willow made a terrific point:

outside of certain scenarios it's very difficult to measure the impact of your actions. You just never know until for one odd reason or another somehow an anecdote gets back to you. There are a lot of silent watchers here. If you're expressing concern over a topic that the rest of society has sidelined, there's probably someone reading who feels a little more validated and less isolated. If you're contributing knowledge and insight about important topics, or humor or creativity or just about anything and doing so in a thoughtful manner, you're doing good.


Giant waves start out as tiny ripples, and looking at the ocean from above, it would be impossible to predict the moment when a ripple is going to become a wave.

I guarantee you that you've created more than a few waves with your writing here, and you WILL be missed if you leave.

Having said that, though, you've also got to take your own well being into account. I've noticed over the years that lots of us ebb and flow (more tidal references...) here at RI. For example, I've been wondering lately where 8bit is, and not too long ago, we lost Simulist for a while. I've disappeared and reappeared myself a few times. Occasionally, we just need to recharge the batteries. Hopefully that's all you need, because you're one of the good guys, and the team needs you.

Best,

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:46 am

MacCruiskeen wrote:Epistemology, schmepistemology. The decisive factor here is quite simply superior force.

That's kind of my point.

And it's even worse than that. When you consider the meaning of the word force, you are first drawn to Mao's theorem (as Wombat so helpfully put it), "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun". That turns out not to be exactly true, because the force multiplier is not in the number of the guns, but in the number of soldiers who carry them. How are soldiers created? They are created through beliefs and words. The fundamental mistake made on this board (and in my personal career decisions) is accepting that human beings are moved to action by rational discourse, by understanding the meaning of words and their true relationships with each other. That is not the case at all. Most people (probably even myself) are moved by desire, what their desire tells them to believe, and by what the superior force tells them about their desires and beliefs through the power of the language they know how to control.
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:22 pm

slomo wrote:They are created through beliefs and words. The fundamental mistake made on this board (and in my personal career decisions) is accepting that human beings are moved to action by rational discourse, by understanding the meaning of words and their true relationships with each other. That is not the case at all. That is not the case at all. Most people (probably even myself) are moved by desire, what their desire tells them to believe, and by what the superior force tells them about their desires and beliefs through the power of the language they know how to control.


Slomo, this strikes me as far too sweeping and absolute a statement. I mean, it just isn't true, or certainly not in all cases. For instance, I certainly didn't desire to start losing my Catholic faith as a very young teenager. In fact it caused me (and my parents) a lot of pain. But I couldn't see any way around it, any tolerable way. I desired to see the world as truthfully as I could manage. (Of course this doesn't preclude the possibility of error.) The same applies to my pained disbelief in the Official Yarn about 9/11: all that did was cause me trouble and expense, distract me from my work, and complicate my life in mainly unpleasant ways. But, again, I couldn't see any way around it. The desire to know, the desire to understand, the desire to resist untruths (unrealities) - these too exist, these too are desires, and these desires can be very powerful motive forces. One of the motivations is simple self-preservation. I am neither a saint nor a masochist, but sometimes some short-term pain is preferable to the predictable lasting pain and actual dangerousness of telling serious lies to oneself or others. One desires not to do it.

(And yes, I too have sometimes been shocked by what people are prepared to swallow in the interest of preserving a quiet life / furthering a career / not rocking the boat. These too can be powerful desires and thus powerful motive forces in anyone's life, but they're clearly not the only ones around.)
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby Sounder » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:27 pm

Changing the mind of another person is a vain and self-defeating desire. At best, one might provide an opportunity for another person to change their own mind. Although for the most part this only happens if mental fashion crashes into your idea like a mack truck.

Whereas work on changing your own mind and one may find at least some fulfillment after the pain.


Epistemology is dead because knowledge is hearsay based on a false assumption that ‘world’ is made up of two fundamentally different aspects.

But metaphysics now, that is candy with different stripes

http://www83.homepage.villanova.edu/ric ... ndex5.html

Metaphysics, then, takes the self-conscious turn that epistemology avoids, examining the powers and processes of intellect by which humans have become conscious of the things that they know and act upon in their daily lives. From the point of view of philosophy, however, all of this effort is expended in order to arrive at some basic concepts (i.e., first principles) which provide the substance upon which being is grounded. Thus, as the definition states, metaphysics seeks to explain the nature of being (or reality)―what, epistemologically speaking, humans know and know that they know―in order to arrive at the substance (or "essence") upon which most human "being in the world" is grounded...and, oftentimes, taken tacitly for granted as "the way things are" (or "being"). Metaphysics searches for the Truth undergirding and supporting what human beings assert to be truth…..

The goal of metaphysics is to arrive at an immutable First Principle that serves as the ground of human being in the world. The presumption is that one will always remain suspicious that what humans assert to be the First Principle may well be a figment of the human imagination for, indeed there may well be no such thing as an immutable First Principle. This is what metaphysics is really all about
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Re: Warning: This Site Contains Conspiracy Theories

Postby slomo » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:29 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:
slomo wrote:They are created through beliefs and words. The fundamental mistake made on this board (and in my personal career decisions) is accepting that human beings are moved to action by rational discourse, by understanding the meaning of words and their true relationships with each other. That is not the case at all. That is not the case at all. Most people (probably even myself) are moved by desire, what their desire tells them to believe, and by what the superior force tells them about their desires and beliefs through the power of the language they know how to control.


Slomo, this strikes me as far too sweeping and absolute a statement. I mean, it just isn't true, or certainly not in all cases. For instance, I certainly didn't desire to start losing my Catholic faith as a very young teenager. In fact it caused me (and my parents) a lot of pain. But I couldn't see any way around it, any tolerable way. I desired to see the world as truthfully as I could manage. (Of course this doesn't preclude the possibility of error.) The same applies to my pained disbelief in the Official Yarn about 9/11: all that did was cause me trouble and expense, distract me from my work, and complicate my life in mainly unpleasant ways. But, again, I couldn't see any way around it. The desire to know, the desire to understand, the desire to resist untruths (unrealities) - these too exist, these too are desires, and these desires can be very powerful motive forces. One of the motivations is simple self-preservation. I am neither a saint nor a masochist, but sometimes some short-term pain is preferable to the predictable lasting pain and actual dangerousness of telling serious lies to oneself or others. One desires not to do it.

(And yes, I too have sometimes been shocked by what people are prepared to swallow in the interest of preserving a quiet life / furthering a career / not rocking the boat. These too are motive forces, but they're clearly not the only ones around.)

There are conscious desires and then there are unconscious ones. The more deeply submerged the desire, the easier it is for an external force to access it and manipulate it.

And: you are not normal. Nobody who posts regularly to this board can be construed as representative of the general public. It doesn't matter if a handful of people are interested in truth (however clumsily they may seek it out), if the major fraction of humanity can be played like a Moog synthesizer, the negligible obstructive remainder are easily ignored or, if necessary, eliminated.
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