Scottish Independence and the UK State

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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:12 pm

Ahab wrote:you're a lot, lot better at condensing your points than I am.


You are too kind, Mr. Sotherleg. I am merely a lazy bastard.

Thanks for your lengthy and cogent reply, and also for those illuminating statistics. I wish my old man was still around to see them!

By the way, this:

MacCruiskeen wrote:the question is (one of the questions is) whether the Union has done the English working class any good since then, not to mention the Scottish working class, to say nothing of the South-East Asian working class.


...was meant as a rhetorical question. But sometimes I am so succinct as to be incomprehensible. I agree with everything you said in reply.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:04 pm

MacCruiskeen wrote:Thanks for your lengthy and cogent reply, and also for those illuminating statistics.


I did warn ye that I'm the most boring man on earth. My name appears in the Guiness Book of Records 2012, under freaks of nature, just 'cos I can discuss the D'Hondt method of allocating seats under a party-list proportional representation system without bursting into fits of tears or laughter (D'Hondt himself used to be my main rival for the title of most boring man on earth, but he died in 1901. Ha! What a shame! Loser.)

MacCruiskeen wrote: I wish my old man was still around to see them!


Mine too. I miss him, and would've liked him to see what is happening now. He would've approved, I think, despite having been an Old Labour loyalist and "Green Unionist" of the George Galloway school all throughout his life. There was enough Red Clydeside in him to have seen the good sense of what's proposed, even if he might still have doubted the likelihood of it being allowed to come about.

MacCruiskeen wrote:By the way, this ...was meant as a rhetorical question. But sometimes I am so succinct as to be incomprehensible.


I am obsessed with the subject, literally, so to me there are no rhetorical questions. Every single question needs an answer, and I have to be able to give one, or at least give the semblance of one in so far as that's possible under the present circumstances. Also, I am intensely boring.

Hey, forgot to say, you know what's inscribed on the wall of the Scottish Parliament? I bet you do.

"Work as if you lived in the early days of a better nation."

Indeed. Indeed.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:59 am

.
Oh dear. The thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Scottish independence: US concern over ‘aggressively neutral’ Scotland

Published on Sunday 1 April 2012 14:02

THE UK must consider nuclear disarmament if Scotland becomes independent and removes Royal Navy submarines from the Clyde, according to an American think-tank.

The Washington DC-based body, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace is holding a seminar on Tuesday entitled “The Scottish Question and the Future of UK Nuclear Forces”.

It stated: “A referendum on Scottish independence scheduled for autumn 2014 could have profound ramifications for the UK’s nuclear deterrent and for US-UK relations.

“The UK’s entire nuclear force, made up of Trident missiles on Vanguard-class submarines, is operated out of two bases in Scotland.

“In the absence of a suitable option for re-basing the submarines in England or Wales, the UK’s Royal Navy must consider a range of alternatives - including disarmament.”

A veteran US Congressional defence analyst recently suggested that an “aggressively neutral” independent Scotland “might not be too good” for American defence.

Robert L Goldich, who served for over 33 years as a defence analyst for the Congressional Research Service at the US Library of Congress, queried whether “a disintegrating United Kingdom” would continue to be a reliable defence partner for the US.

According to the Scottish Government’s Your Scotland, Your Voice consultation paper, an independent Scotland “would become a non-nuclear weapons state”.

It says: “The UK’s nuclear deterrent would not continue to be based in an independent Scotland and a Scottish Government would need to work in partnership with the rest of the United Kingdom to ensure an appropriate transition and relocation.”

The SNP’s anti-nuclear stance is also behind its long-standing aim to withdraw from Nato, although this goal was cast into doubt last month when defence spokesman Angus Robertson said the party was “looking at the policy options” regarding Nato.


Hold, boys! Hold the line! Hooolllldddd!!!!

Scottish Conservative constitution spokesman David McLetchie recently accused the SNP of having “a white flag, surrender-monkey attitude to the defence of this country”.
[ :lol: ]
The Carnegie Endowment, the oldest international affairs think-tank in the United States, was founded by Dunfermline-born Scottish-American industrialist Andrew Carnegie in 1910 to “hasten the abolition of war”.

Its present board of trustees includes former United Nations secretary-general Kofi Annan.

Tuesday’s seminar, being held in Washington, will feature St Andrews University professor of international relations William Walker, who has co-written a book on “nuclear weapons and the Scottish question”, discussing the independence referendum’s implications for the UK nuclear deterrent.

It will be moderated by James Acton, senior associate at Carnegie Endowment’s Nuclear Policy Programme and a specialist in nuclear deterrence, disarmament and non-proliferation.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-i ... entssort=1


Nuclear disarmament will apparently make us into a rogue terrorist state, and could necessitate US govt "involvement" in the region.

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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:17 am

only in Scotland?

The Naked Rambler: the man prepared to go to prison for nudity

Six years ago, Naked Rambler Stephen Gough's hike from Land's End to John O'Groats brought him media fame – and a prison sentence. Then another, and another, and… why has he been locked up ever since?

Winter at HMP Perth. The river Tay carries slivers of ice on its journey past the prison wall. Prisoners' breath catches in clouds while they glumly circuit the courtyard. At this time of year, many choose not to take their allotted outdoor exercise. The stone corridors of A Hall sit silent; 133 men are in temporary lockdown while one of them is brought to meet me. To many of the prisoners this man is a stranger. They've got more chance of seeing his face in a newspaper than around the wing.

Stephen Gough occupies a parallel universe in HMP Perth. While the prison moves through its daily timetable, and other prisoners go to workshops or receive visitors, he remains alone in his cell. At 8.30pm, when the building is locked down for the night, he is released for 30 minutes. He empties his rubbish, posts his letters and has a shower. If he's lucky, he also has time for a walk, a quick circuit of the empty corridors.

This morning Gough, 52, is on his way to meet me, so the rest of A Hall wait behind their doors. He's led from his cell, along the walkway, down the stairs. I hear his bare feet padding across the stone before he turns into the office.

"Nice to meet you," Gough says politely.

We shake hands and for a moment he's unsure where to sit. With the dutifulness of a long-term prisoner, he stands awaiting instruction. His body is pale and lean, patched with strands of brown hair. His penis dangles in the cold air between us.

The media call Gough the Naked Rambler. He's serving 657 days for a breach of the peace and contempt of court. The breach was leaving HMP Perth naked after finishing a previous sentence. He was taken to Perth sheriff court, and represented himself naked. That was the contempt. When he returned to the prison, the cell was just as he'd left it – he hadn't bothered to pack.

Gough's latest conviction is his 17th in 10 years. Since May 2006 he has been in a run of short sentences broken by the same fleeting freedom: he's effectively been in custody for nearly six years for refusing to get dressed. At a recent hearing, it was suggested he could be in prison for the rest of his life. "People often have to go to prison for many years," he said, "before others see the light."

I ask how he is. "Well, you know. You adapt."

So how did an intelligent, likable, earnest man come to forfeit his liberty for his right to be naked? After a spell in the Royal Marines, and a dalliance with the Moonies in Thailand, Gough spent nearly 20 years in his native Eastleigh, Hampshire. He worked as a lorry driver and got involved with environmental groups and communal living. Then, in 2000, aged 40, he moved to Vancouver for a year with his partner and their two children.

"I wasn't working in Canada," Gough says. "I spent my time looking after the kids and going for walks. One day I was walking and something happened." He had an epiphany: "I realised I was good. Being British, buried in our upbringing is that we're not good or have to watch ourselves – maybe it comes from religion, or school. I realised that at a fundamental level I'm good, we're all good, and you can trust that one part of yourself."

This self-realisation led to Gough often choosing to be naked in public: if he was good, then his body was good. "The human body isn't offensive," he says. "If that's what we're saying, as human beings, then it's not rational."

His former partner was "more conservative" and a visit from her parents proved calamitous. "One morning I came to breakfast naked and that was it, all over," Gough says flatly. "The thing was, her parents weren't even that bothered."

The couple returned to Eastleigh together, but Gough went to live with his mother. He arrived back in England, he says, with an intense appreciation of what nakedness could offer, and questioning "things we're taught to believe are right". He visited a police station in Eastleigh and asked if it was illegal to walk naked in the streets. "They couldn't come up with an answer," he says.

His first naked walk was short-lived. In January 2003 he left his mother's home and headed for Eastleigh town centre. "Nothing really happened," he says. "There was one man who shouted, 'That's disgusting!' but he was eating a sandwich so I think that's why. I was about to go into the covered market when the police arrived in a big rush."

By his court hearing, he'd been adopted by various naturist groups. The BBC reported that he emerged naked to "a crowd of supporters". Photos show a muscular, healthy Gough beaming on the court steps. "I wanted to follow my truth," he recalls, "to keep asking questions."

That summer, Gough set off from Land's End wearing hiking boots and a rucksack. His planned destination was John O'Groats. On his first day the Cornish press ran jovial reports. On his second he was arrested in St Ives, held briefly, then released. On the town's outer fringes, he was brutally attacked: "A couple of guys pushed me over. They kicked me in the head and did this." He points to his skewed nose. "I thought, is this what it's going to be like? But actually that was the only real problem I had until I got to Scotland."

On his journey through England, skirting towns and sleeping rough, Gough was stopped "every so often" by the police. He'd put on clothes and explain what he was doing. Bemused officers, he says, would turf him out of stations "on the sly, out the back door". Someone in the legal system who does not want to be named later tells me that English police would sometimes quietly drop Gough off just over county lines.

In Scotland, however, he met more determined opposition. In the north-eastern corner he was picked up several times by police and finally convicted of breach of the peace. He served four months in HMP Inverness, an experience he found "actually quite good". It was his first taste of segregation. "I flourished and found out more about myself. You do that in extreme situations."

On his release, Gough launched a final push for John O'Groats. He was a few days from Britain's northern tip when a car stopped and a man jumped out. "He said he'd read about me and had been looking for me for days. He had a flask of soup and cake, and wished me luck." Gough reached John O'Groats on 22 January 2004 and the media were waiting. He posed for jaunty photos at the iconic signpost and local hotel staff gave him a bottle of champagne. "It was a great feeling," he says. "I thought it was the end."

Gough returned to Eastleigh, bought a van and headed for Studland, a Dorset village popular with alternative lifestyle enthusiasts. He tried to write a book about the walk, but was beset by a nagging doubt: "I kept thinking I'd been compromised. Why did I put on clothes when the police stopped me? That was wrong; it defeated the whole point."

The doubt grew until it had to be faced down. He would make the journey again, this time "without compromises". With his new girlfriend, Melanie Roberts, he set off from Land's End in June 2005.

If anything, England was even easier this time around. Photos online show Gough and Roberts naked in pubs amid grinning drinkers and shopping unclothed in supermarkets. Dealings with police were no more than an irritation. "They'd ask what we were doing, we told them and that was usually that," Gough says.

Again, it was in Scotland that he ran into trouble. "We got nabbed in Edinburgh," he says. "And I was getting a bit hardcore then."

By hardcore, Gough means he refused to get dressed for court and pleaded not guilty to breach of the peace. Roberts, on the other hand, got dressed, pleaded guilty and stayed in a hostel while Gough served two weeks in Saughton prison.

Did that cause tension between them? "People have to do what they want," Gough says. "I'm for freedom, so I accepted her decision."

They resumed their walk amid growing media interest. A documentary team caught footage of Gough and Roberts being led through a village by a piper. Yet what Gough remembers as "a carnival atmosphere" led to further problems. While many Scottish police had decided to ignore Gough in the past, his spreading fame made that more difficult. For the police, critical mass was reached when he once more entered the final stretch of his journey.

"They nabbed me again," Gough says simply. "Back in Inverness prison. Another five months."

Gough and Roberts reached John O'Groats in February 2006. Once again, he'd finished his journey in the coldest months of the year. "Pretty cold but manageable," he says defiantly, insisting temperature is an issue only "when you stop, as that's when you start seizing up. The trick is to keep going." Local journalists reported Gough and Roberts walking stoically through "lashing rain".

The two would sleep fully clothed in their sleeping bags, Roberts says. "When there's snow on the ground, it's hard to get out of your sleeping bag, let alone your clothes, to do a 22-mile walk."

They made some allowances for the weather. "We wore warm hats, thick socks, gloves and walking boots," Roberts says. "We ate lots of carbohydrates and walked fast. The closer we got to the finish, the easier it was to forget the cold and pain."

"There were fewer photographers," Gough says of his second arrival at John O'Groats. "And the champagne the hotel gave me was a miniature."

He returned to Roberts's native Bournemouth with court dates that meant he would have to go back to Scotland, and with a relationship that, away from the unique atmosphere of the walk, was no longer working. "She sensed the cause meant more to me than her," Gough says.

"It was very sad," Roberts recalls. "Steve knew he would be going to prison for a long time. We finished the relationship before he got on the plane. I worried for him, but I knew he'd suffer if he didn't follow what he feels is true and right."

On 18 May 2006, a fully-clothed Gough boarded a 6.45am flight from Southampton. After the pilot announced the descent into Edinburgh, Gough visited the toilet and emerged naked. "I knew I wanted to go to court naked and I suddenly thought, why not now? The flight attendant asked if I'd put my clothes back on. I said politely that I wouldn't and she went away. Nothing happened until we landed and the police came on."

Gough was arrested. His solicitor at the time, John Good, describes a court hearing not far short of slapstick. It emerged that after Gough returned naked from the toilet, the male passenger sitting next to him reacted by falling asleep. The arresting officer's only issue in removing Gough from the plane was the delighted reaction of a hen party. For Gough, however, his midair strip meant a four-month sentence. He has been in prison ever since.

Gough isn't mad. "They do evaluations all the time." He smiles. "I'm on top of my game mentally. I've got clarity. If I feel down, then I'm straight on the case, trying to work out why."

He emerged from more than two years of segregation with faultless psychological examinations. "If you or I spent two years in segregation," Good says, "we'd probably show signs of trauma. It just shows how focused he's become. He's immune to his surroundings."

Gough agrees: "I live at a deep level." Yet he admits to experiencing doubts about his stance. "Yeah, of course. I wake up in the morning and think, what the fuck am I doing here? But what I'm doing isn't about me. I'm challenging society and it must be challenged because it's wrong."

In Scotland, breach of the peace is partly defined as "conduct which does, or could, cause the lieges [public] to be placed in a state of fear, alarm or annoyance". The prosecution has very rarely managed to rustle up witnesses to claim Gough's nakedness has had any of these effects on them. What is keeping him in prison is simply the theoretical idea that it could.

"I do not believe that an ordinary, reasonable person would feel any of those things if they saw me [naked] in the street," Gough says. He believes that to achieve his stated aim – to leave HMP Perth and return to Eastleigh naked – "the law doesn't have to change, just the interpretation".

Twice Scottish sheriffs found in Gough's favour that no crime had been committed, both in him being naked in public and being naked in court. "Both times the sheriffs were elderly females," notes Good, who represented Gough for more than three years (they parted company in 2010 so Gough could represent himself, making it harder for him to be excluded from the courtroom for being naked). "Stephen then chose to leave court naked and was arrested for being naked in public."

Initially, Gough was a legal novelty in Scotland and support came from surprising quarters. In 2008, Edinburgh-based solicitor Joe MacPherson prosecuted Gough, a position with which he says he was uncomfortable. "I looked at the case and thought a man walking down a public street would not cause the requisite fear and alarm to an ordinary person. It would be odd, or amusing perhaps, but nothing more. The judge said his hands were tied. Seeing a man's penis was felt to be enough to cause fear and alarm."

Eventually Gough's case was heard at Scotland's appeal court, where it was found that breach of the peace should indeed be interpreted to criminalise his behaviour. Since then Scottish sheriffs have fallen in line; his sentences have steadily increased to the maximum and, should he keep refusing to dress, he will be caught in an endless cycle of two-year sentences. He insists if he were allowed to return home naked to Eastleigh, he'd cease being naked in public "when I don't have to do it any more".

The courts, prison and police are left to attempt a solution. "Mr Gough is asked every morning if he is willing to get dressed and take part in the daily regime," a spokesman for Perth prison says. "This he refuses. Due to his refusal to wear clothes, we cannot move him around the prison, meaning all services come to him in his cell." Gough, he says, has never complained about his bedding or heating, and they work around his "unique and problematic" position.

"I put a quilt over my shoulders at night," Gough says. "That's not a contradiction because there are no restrictions on me when I'm alone in my cell. It's in public I'm restricted and go naked as a result. Even with the quilt it gets pretty cold, but exercise helps."

Chief inspector Andy McCann of Tayside police, whose officers frequently rearrest Gough in the prison car park, says, "We have had and continue to have discussions with Mr Gough to seek a compromise position. We've suggested transferring him to an English prison, or transporting him upon completion of his sentence, but these have not been acceptable arrangements to him."

Gough wants to walk out of HMP Perth and make his way home to Eastleigh naked. Anything else is dismissed as a "compromise". He's due for release in the summer. Will he again walk out naked, and into an inevitable further sentence?

"Yes, yes." He nods firmly. "That's my position."

So we're back to the beginning – a 52-year-old man threatening to sacrifice his freedom on a point of principle that, although logically coherent, is also utterly frustrating and has cost him his relationship with his two teenage children. He writes to them without reply.

"If I had a dad that was doing this, I'd probably be confused," he says. "I'm guessing as they grow up, and learn more about how life is, they'll come over to my way of thinking. I'm thinking long-term." His former partner is "angry that I'm not seeing my kids – but so am I".

He hasn't heard from Roberts for a while, though she tells me she is strongly supportive of his stance. "He's vindicating the right of the individual to be individual," she says. "For me, Steve's a hero."

The naturist groups that once gathered outside courts to cheer him are long gone. His mother is 85 "and not so well". Ten years ago, she found his nakedness amusing. "She thought of it as a funny British thing, like Monty Python playing the piano naked. Now she doesn't really get why I'm still here." He has no support, no money, just his belief.

After two hours of conversation, Gough's nakedness has faded to insignificance. He's a magnetic presence, relentless in his storytelling, the speed of his voice fluctuating as it struggles to keep up with his thoughts.

He tries to reposition the loneliness he feels, to tell himself "the connection" with others he misses can somehow be found within his own mind. Yet he admits to having an overriding wish to "have a meaningful conversation with someone. I have to catch myself," he says, "and make sure I don't become melancholy."

He writes to supporters around the world and seizes on interaction when the opportunity arises. "My threshold for small talk is higher than it would otherwise be." He laughs. "The other night I had a long conversation with a prisoner mopping the floors about my favourite type of flapjack." When he does have brief encounters with the other inmates, he says he feels "an instant camaraderie. We're all enduring privations and going through hardships together."

What he misses most about clothes are pockets ("Somewhere to put my hands"), and his nakedness forces him to see the varicose veins on his legs, "which I don't like". He prefers to position his struggle on a higher scale, but sometimes the constant need to account for his behaviour can be unbearable. Good describes occasions in court when Gough broke down entirely. "He'd be asked to explain his position and it meant so much to him to get it right that he couldn't do it. He'd choke, start sobbing."

When I ask Gough for a final summary of his standpoint, he says, "Truth and freedom are difficult concepts to understand. They can't be grasped by the mind."

When Gough poses for the photographer, he doesn't move like a naked man. He's stiff-backed and lithe, stamping his hardened feet on the ground. This is a man who has been naked for nearly six years. It's strangely difficult to imagine him clothed. The photographer asks him to place his hands on his body. Gough politely refuses, explaining that this would be just another form of covering up, of chipping at the purity of his position. Instead he stretches his arms and puffs his chest, framed against the winter's light.

Two days after my visit, I receive a long letter from Gough expanding on the reasons behind his stance. It's an extended, meandering manifesto broken by moments of sharp insight. He concludes: "We can either end up living a life that others expect of us or lives based on our own truth. The difference is the difference between living a conscious life or one that is unconscious. And that's the difference between living and not living."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... NTCMP=SRCH


*
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:24 am

vanlose kid wrote:only in Scotland?


Sadly, no.

A British terrorism suspect, held for a record seven years without trial, has appealed to be prosecuted in the UK.

In an exclusive interview with the BBC, Babar Ahmad accused the police and prosecutors of mishandling his case.

Mr Ahmad has been battling against extradition to the United States. He will find out next Tuesday if he will be sent to America.

The Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service have denied impropriety.

The unprecedented interview in the maximum security Long Lartin Prison came after the BBC challenged a government ban on filming Mr Ahmad.

The High Court ruled that there was an overwhelming public interest in hearing Mr Ahmad discuss his case, because of his unique situation.

"I have been in prison now for nearly eight years without trial," Mr Ahmad said.

"I am facing extradition to the US to spend the rest of my life in solitary confinement. I have never been questioned about the allegations against me.

"I do not hold the Americans responsible for anything that has happened to me, but I think it is fair to say that I am fighting for my life - and I am running out of time."

The 37-year-old from Tooting in south London was arrested in 2004 on an extradition warrant from the United States. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17614935


More at link.

The case of the Naked Rambler is a blight and a shame on our justice system, though, you're right, and there are plenty of those - from Lockerbie to Shirley McKie to Nat Fraser to the Ice Cream Wars convictions - and not even getting into Dunblane and the whole Hollie Grieg debacle for the moment - but no, unfortunately, it's not only in Scotland.

At least the Naked Rambler got a series of (naked) trials and convictions. Babar Ahmad still hasn't been tried yet, or even charged according to some accounts. Then again, at least Babar Ahmad is accused of an actual crime, whereas theNaked Rambler just doesn;t wear clothes.

It is definitely time to free the Naked Rambler. If Al-Megrahi can be released on compassionate grounds with the Justice Secretary still saying he is guilty of the crime then there can be no moral or legal argument against Stephen Gough being allowed to rock out with his cock out. I'm very surprised he's over forty, to be honest. Last time he was on the news (he was on the outside then, heading up the Highlands with his balls hanging out) he looked in very good condition.

Also:

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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:14 am

If you spend all your time naked you probably try to keep fit.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:22 am

The constant walking about can't hurt either.

Seriously, though, the suggestion by the legal authorities that he can be held indefinitely until he puts some clothes on is disgusting. It seems to violate his fundamental human liberty. At the same time, can we really change the law just for one man - or make an exception for one man - so that his public nudity is no longer considered a breach of the peace, whereas everyone else's is?

I can see situations where public nudity could be considered "harmful" to those who witness it, at least under the present way of thinking - at a Christening, say, or in the middle of a primary school playground.

If he broke the law by being nude in a public place, and was sentenced for that crime, and then he leaves the prison still naked, aren't they simply legally obliged to rearrest him? Just like they'd be obliged to rearrest him if he walked out smoking a joint after a drugs charge, under current laws?

Six years, though. It's a tough one, and so is he.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:35 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:The constant walking about can't hurt either.

Seriously, though, the suggestion by the legal authorities that he can be held indefinitely until he puts some clothes on is disgusting. It seems to violate his fundamental human liberty. At the same time, can we really change the law just for one man - or make an exception for one man - so that his public nudity is no longer considered a breach of the peace, whereas everyone else's is?


Why not just make it legal to walk around naked for anyone. I don't think many people would take up the offer.

I can see situations where public nudity could be considered "harmful" to those who witness it, at least under the present way of thinking - at a Christening, say, or in the middle of a primary school playground.


What better way to train the children to think in a more modern manner than to have people wander around naked without shame or any kind of sexual context.

If he broke the law by being nude in a public place, and was sentenced for that crime, and then he leaves the prison still naked, aren't they simply legally obliged to rearrest him? Just like they'd be obliged to rearrest him if he walked out smoking a joint after a drugs charge, under current laws?

Six years, though. It's a tough one, and so is he.


They don't seem to mind him wandering around naked in the prison, although only when there aren't any other inmates around. Got to protect those delicate hardened Scots killers from the sight of the naked chappy.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:31 pm

Stephen Morgan wrote:What better way to train the children to think in a more modern manner than to have people wander around naked without shame or any kind of sexual context.


Okay... You go first. :lol:

I agree though, the whole situation is ridiculous and shameful and needs to be sorted out. I doubt that the constitutional debate will hinge on it, however.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby crikkett » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:44 am

Gough isn't mad.


Just extraordinarily unlucky. Had he gone West instead of East he'd be tanned and happy.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:56 pm

crikkett wrote:
Gough isn't mad.


Just extraordinarily unlucky. Had he gone West instead of East he'd be tanned and happy.


Are Ayr and Oban really that liberal? Or sunny for that matter? :lol:

MacCruiskeen wrote:I remember arguing with my father about Scottish nationalism in the late 70s and him saying, "Son, we cannot abandon the English working class to a permanent Tory majority!" He also felt that the upsurge of Scottish nationalism after the sudden discovery of "Scottish" oil was a bit shabby, like a spouse winning the lottery and immediately applying for a divorce.


Have to come back to this, sorry Mac... I'm not arguing with you specifically, just with a certain mindset.

Given what we now know from the McCrone Report and later slips-of-the-tongue from the Treasury Department, wouldn't it really be more like a spouse winning the lottery and, rather than immediately applying for a divorce, having the lottery ticket and the amount of winnings hidden from her for several decades while the husband went on a massive spending spree and a continual booze-up all over the world where he started dozens of fights with the neighbours and drew the spouse into them, while ocassionally coming home to throw the wife a tenner and remind her that she was too poor and useless and stupid to ever leave him?



I realise this is a very bad analogy - it amounts to blaming the UK for the sins we have committed, or allowed to be comitted, while a part of it. It's like Rose West blaming Fred after their arrest, and suddenly expressing remorse - far too little, far too late, and not in the least convincing. God knows, we have been stupid and useless though. And we certainly played our part in the fights as well.

One of the first things I would like to see post-independence is a full and frank admission of our past wrongdoings expressed direct from the Scottish Parliament - an apology for our hugely disproportionate role in the slave trade, especially in the West Indies (both as owners and as slaves, oddly enough) and for the massive part we played in the Empire. A full confession might go some way towards making amends, especially with countries like Jamaica, where half the surnames in the phone book are still Scottish due to our "ownership" positions there.

At one point even Robert Burns - destitute at the time - considered a career in the Indies as "a driver of poor negroes". He wasn't keen on the idea, but his bags were packed and his ship was booked - he would have gone, and done the job. This is our national poet, who wrote of liberty, equality, and "a man's a man". This kind of stuff will have to be faced up to. And about time too.

The past is dark, the future's undecided.
Last edited by AhabsOtherLeg on Tue May 01, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Tue May 01, 2012 12:10 am

This is another good point in favour of separation, at least from a Scottish point of view:

Fuday, just 250 hectares of rough grazing, shot into the headlines last week after it was outed as one of five sites in Scotland shortlisted as a potential dump for all Britain's nuclear waste. Unknown to anyone, the UK radioactive waste agency, Nirex, had planned to dig 26 huge caverns 500 metres under the island, along with a new harbour and causeway.

Unluckily for Barra and its thousand plus inhabitants, Nirex also had similar, secret plans for the island of Sandray just to the south, costing £1.8 billion over 50 years. "People are appalled that such things were considered," said Manford, the local councillor.

"That this organisation could talk about these things, organising, planning and plotting with peoples' lives without telling them - I think it is obscene."

At 6 o'clock on Friday morning, Nirex released the sins of its past onto its website for all to see. In belated response to a freedom of information request lodged by the Sunday Herald and others in January, it published comprehensive details of all the potential nuclear waste sites kept secret by government for more than 15 years.



...The latest official inventory of UK nuclear waste stocks in 2001 showed that there were over 92,000 cubic metres stored at 34 locations around the UK. This is set to rise five times in volume over the next hundred years, even assuming no new nuclear power stations are built.

The waste contains a massive amount of radioactivity - many times more than was released by the world's worst nuclear accident at Chernobyl in Ukraine in 1986. It includes some very long-lived radioisotopes, such as plutonium, and will remain lethal for maybe a quarter of a million years.

The information released by Nirex shows that the shortlist of 12 sites was selected from a long list of 537 sites, of which 159 were in Scotland. Most of the Scottish sites were in Highland (45) and Strathclyde (40), followed by Western Isles (21), Shetland (17) and Orkney (15).


I don't think Shetland and Orkney will want to stay under the auspices of the UKAEA and Nirex.

Much of the list reads like a roll call of Scotland's famous islands. It included Iona, Islay, Jura, Canna, Eigg, Muck, Coll, Gigha, Colonsay, Tiree, Ulva, Raasey, Rhum, St Kilda, Foula, Ailsa Craig, the Summer Isles and the Isle of May.

There were also plenty of military bases and training areas, such as Lossiemouth, Kinloss, Leuchars, Rosyth, Machrihanish, Barry Buddon and Cape Wrath. Even Redford Barracks in Edinburgh was regarded by Nirex as a potential waste dump. As many as 33 sites in Scotland made it past the third stage of Nirex's six stage sorting process (see below).
...

..."The list shows that site selection in the past has been done on purely political grounds – where they think they can get away with it," said the Green MSP, Chris Ballance.

He pointed out that nearly a third of the 537 sites in the UK were in Scotland. "They seem to have chosen every uninhabited Scottish island they could find a name for on the map. Low population and low public opposition was a more important factor than geological and scientific suitability."
http://www.robedwards.com/2005/06/the-o ... dumps.html


The whole article is interesting, I've cut it down a bit. The really interesting thing about it to me is that it might well be something that Willie MacRae found out about all those years ago.

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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby Stephen Morgan » Tue May 01, 2012 1:54 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:
MacCruiskeen wrote:I remember arguing with my father about Scottish nationalism in the late 70s and him saying, "Son, we cannot abandon the English working class to a permanent Tory majority!" He also felt that the upsurge of Scottish nationalism after the sudden discovery of "Scottish" oil was a bit shabby, like a spouse winning the lottery and immediately applying for a divorce.


Have to come back to this, sorry Mac... I'm not arguing with you specifically, just with a certain mindset.

Given what we now know from the McCrone Report and later slips-of-the-tongue from the Treasury Department, wouldn't it really be more like a spouse winning the lottery and, rather than immediately applying for a divorce, having the lottery ticket and the amount of winnings hidden from her for several decades while the husband went on a massive spending spree and a continual booze-up all over the world where he started dozens of fights with the neighbours and drew the spouse into them, while ocassionally coming home to throw the wife a tenner and remind her that she was too poor and useless and stupid to ever leave him?


Yes, the Scottish Raj has been very bad for the rest of us.

Scotland does have one redeeming feature, being large and largely empty it is the perfect place to dump radioactive waste.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Tue May 01, 2012 2:28 am

Good morning Dr. Starkey. I hope you are well.

Hehe, I bet you wouldn't have minded if I hadn't characterised Scotland as the wife in that scenario.
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Re: Scottish Independence and the UK State

Postby Stephen Morgan » Tue May 01, 2012 11:28 am

AhabsOtherLeg wrote:Good morning Dr. Starkey. I hope you are well.

Hehe, I bet you wouldn't have minded if I hadn't characterised Scotland as the wife in that scenario.


No, if Scotland had been the horribly abusive drunk bossing us about and stealing all our money it would have been a far more accurate analogy.

However, if you're the wife then after the divorce you can have custody over Northern Ireland. You raised it, anyway.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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