West Memphis Three Revisited

[Project Willow]

I didn't dismiss it summarily. I considered it as thoroughly as I could.

Then I pointed out that a kid his size would have trouble killing a Great Dane in the manner described. As would most people of any size, all of whom would have been covered with blood and gore if they had. As well might have Baldwin's little cousin, the witness, if he was close enough to hear Damien say he wanted to hear the dog's eyeball's pop, which presumably he was.

Stomping a Great Dane's eyes out of its sockets would require some very heavy duty boots. btw. Steel-toed, probably. And I'm not even sure if that would work.

The manner described was that Echols hit the dog on the back of the head and disabled it. Then he stomped it. It does not say he was successful in making the eyes pop out. I don't agree with your requirements about the blood and gore or Echols' strength or lack thereof.

It's actually very, very rare for a Great Dane to even be out and about by itself in a populated residential area where children are playing. Some people are scared of them.. And there's some potential that they'll cause damage or harm just by romping. Because they're huge.

I'm not saying any of that for any reason other than that it's objectively difficult to figure out how it was possible for a teenager to stomp a Great Dane to death in a trailer park without anyone besides his twelve-year-old companion knowing about it then or noticing very memorable signs of it later. Such as the absence of a Great Dane.

None of the details that lend versimilitude to a story are present, in a nutshell.

None of the details, according to your expectations, based on your own life experience which is understandable, but I would wager at this point that doesn't include living in a trailer park in the South. Please correct me if I'm wrong of course. I've spent time in them with the poorest of the poor in the middle of the woods, and once resided in a double wide on a cul de sac. This is by no means universal, but people allow their pets to roam, especially if they go hunting with them and there are woods about. It is not uncommon for inquiries to be met with, "Well, he just went off somewheres, he'll come home if he wants to." Life has a transient quality to it. If you lose a dog, you get another one. This is straight out of my personal experience, including purebreds, which also roam, that is how my family got a german shepherd once. Regardless, did anyone inquire to see if there were missing pet reports?

[compared2what?]

None of the details, according to your expectations, based on your own life experience which is understandable, but I would wager at this point that doesn't include living in a trailer park in the South. Please correct me if I'm wrong of course. I've spent time in them with the poorest of the poor in the middle of the woods, and once resided in a double wide on a cul de sac.

I've been in trailer parks and around Great Danes in my life, but claim no expertise wrt the requirements of stomping the latter to death in the former,. I'm just speaking from the position of logic, observation and experience, none of which I have in unlimited supply.

Regardless, did anyone inquire to see if there were missing pet reports?

The same police officers who solicited those statements tried very hard to corroborate them, yes. Of course. It was a murder investigation. They wanted to make an arrest.

[compared2what?]

Of course it had been heard before, and that is documented. Echol's behavior and his beliefs and his propensity to disturb people with them was known in the community before the murders.

None of that animal-killing crazy violent stuff was out there before the murders. None of it. He was a creepy goth kid, that was all.

What makes it so entirely out of the realm of possibility that Jones legitimately thought Echols was dangerous?

He thought Echols was a triple-murderer of children, despite Echols not having shown the slightest sign of being predisposed to commit that kind of crime.

This has all been documented. BTW.

Where, in a Hollywood movie? Who else "documented" it, and what was their agenda?

It's in court (and even some police) records. It's also been documented by various journalists, notably Mara Leveritt. That documentary wasn't a Hollywood product. And though on the flashy side as a finished product, it was thoroughly researched and -- afaik -- error-free, as far as factual details go.

not like there isn't some huge organization that was very active at the time in debunking any and all reports of violent occult activity, one of the members of which got himself directly involved in the case.

I'm sympathetic to that consideration. There were no signs of violent occult activity having occurred in this case that weren't supplied or solicited by the police.

Lots of male teenagers get in a few fights with peers. Almost none kill second-graders.

Some of them do.

With no more of a background indicating a propensity for violence that that? No. They don't.

Dude. He never hurt anybody. The only threat he posed was suicide. Also, his girlfriend's parents didn't like him. Issuing specific threats? He was talking trash. How you can tell is:

HE NEVER HURT ANYBODY.

YES HE DID. How can you even say that?

Because he didn't. What people did he have a history of hurting?

[The Consul]

I was listening to the audio book of "The Psychopath Test" as read by the author Jon Ronson. Seeing additional information that was not presented in the films is almost as disturbing as the films themselves. It is worth the listen (read).

The Robert Hare Psychopathy Checklist that is the foundation for the book is below:

Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Conning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle".

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release

Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term (marital) relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)


The main thing about psychopaths, as I understand it, is they are incapable of feeling remorse - sometimes even remorse about being caught or convicted. They are not repelled by the same things as most of us. What we turn away from, they look at with the deepest sense of fascination. I have no idea if Damien is a psychopath. If he is, and he pulled this off - he is the craziest breakdown of sensationalized justice this side of Jack Abbot.

[Col. Quisp]

Are we really getting into pissing matches over who has more experience living in the south in trailer parks with great danes? Has it really come to this? Putting c2w on ignore from now on.

[Project Willow]

^ Oh, please don't Col. I admire C2W greatly, and respect her view and trust it is well considered and very well informed, even though we disagree here. I rather enjoy arguing, and since this case seems to be a shining example of how media and social pressure can shape beliefs (that's part of the argument on both sides), I think ultimately our exchanges here will be beneficial.

[compared2what?]

I have tremendous respect for you, too. And for your judgment. It blows my mind somewhat that we disagree so very strongly on a consequential issue. But more than that, I'm both mindful and grateful that it's a relatively rare occurrence.

Sorry if my tone read to Col. Quisp as more confrontational than I was feeling it to be. But put me on ignore if you feel like it, CQ. I feel that way about myself, often.

[thatsmystory]

He has his own theory about the motive and type of person who killed three 8-year-old boys in West Memphis in 1993. Hint: He says it's not the West Memphis Three.

Professional profiler convinced of innocence of West Memphis Three

I've seen the HBO docs and read through some message boards. Terry Hobbs sure looks like a good suspect.

Has anyone read the Damien Echols biography that came out a few months ago?

[Project Willow]

Anyone know how the defense found its way to this expert witness? Did CIA Ofshe give 'em his number or somebody else?

Misskelley pretrial hearing, January 13, 1994, defense motion to suppress confession.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/suppressionhearing.html

Q. Mr. Holmes, will you please state your name?

A. Warren D. Holmes. H-O-L-M-E-S.

Q. What is your occupation? (1093)

A. Polygraph examiner, commonly known as a lie detector expert.

Q. Can you tell us about your background?

A. I'm a graduate of the Keeler Polygraph Institute in Chicago, graduated there in 1955. I was with the Miami Police Department from 1950 to 1963. I left as a detective sergeant in charge of the Lie Detection Bureau to open up my own business. I'm a charter and life member of the American Polygraph Association, a charter and life member of the Florida polygraph Association. I'm a former president of the Florida Polygraph Association, former president of the Academy of Scientific Interrogation, which is the predecessor name to the American Polygraph Association. I was consultant to the United States Senate on assassinations. I lecture putting on interrogational seminars for the F.B.I., the C.I.A. and other government agencies. I have lectured ten years at the Canadian Police College on homicide interrogations and investigations. I lecture each year at the Department of Public Safety of Texas, the Texas rangers, primarily, and I conduct interrogational seminars throughout the United States -- ten to fifteen a year.

Q. I understand you conducted the polygraph examinations on the John F. Kennedy assassination?

A. Yes.

Q. And the Doctor Martin Luther King assassination? (1094)

A. Yes.

Q. Watergate?

A. Yes.

Q. You also worked on the William Kennedy Smith case?

A. Yes.

[justdrew]

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Download The Lie Behind the Lie Detector
by George W. Maschke and Gino J. Scalabrini
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[Project Willow]

Thanks JD. Polygraph results were inadmissible regardless. This guy was testifying as to how polygraphing Misskelley might have played a role in creating a supposed "false confession". He failed as a witness really, and managed to show only his ignorance of the situation.

[FourthBase]

Anyone know how the defense found its way to this expert witness? Did CIA Ofshe give 'em his number or somebody else?

Misskelley pretrial hearing, January 13, 1994, defense motion to suppress confession.
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/suppressionhearing.html

Q. Mr. Holmes, will you please state your name?

A. Warren D. Holmes. H-O-L-M-E-S.

Q. What is your occupation? (1093)

A. Polygraph examiner, commonly known as a lie detector expert.

Q. Can you tell us about your background?

A. I'm a graduate of the Keeler Polygraph Institute in Chicago, graduated there in 1955. I was with the Miami Police Department from 1950 to 1963. I left as a detective sergeant in charge of the Lie Detection Bureau to open up my own business. I'm a charter and life member of the American Polygraph Association, a charter and life member of the Florida polygraph Association. I'm a former president of the Florida Polygraph Association, former president of the Academy of Scientific Interrogation, which is the predecessor name to the American Polygraph Association. I was consultant to the United States Senate on assassinations. I lecture putting on interrogational seminars for the F.B.I., the C.I.A. and other government agencies. I have lectured ten years at the Canadian Police College on homicide interrogations and investigations. I lecture each year at the Department of Public Safety of Texas, the Texas rangers, primarily, and I conduct interrogational seminars throughout the United States -- ten to fifteen a year.

Q. I understand you conducted the polygraph examinations on the John F. Kennedy assassination?

A. Yes.

Q. And the Doctor Martin Luther King assassination? (1094)

A. Yes.

Q. Watergate?

A. Yes.

Q. You also worked on the William Kennedy Smith case?

A. Yes.

He conducted the polygraphs of whom, I wonder?

[justdrew]

Thanks JD. Polygraph results were inadmissible regardless. This guy was testifying as to how polygraphing Misskelley might have played a role in creating a supposed "false confession". He failed as a witness really, and managed to show only his ignorance of the situation.

I just reflexively point out the bogosity of the things whenever they come up

as for the WM3, well, they remain convicted and so "guilty" - true or not I don't know, would have said not before, but now, not so sure. They "have enough rope" now, maybe one or more of them will get in trouble again. Where are they living? Are they free to leave their home state?

[Julian the Apostate]

Damien Echols currently lives in Salem Massachusetts (of all places!)

There was an article about him in the Boston Phoenix not too long ago: http://thephoenix.com/Boston/news/14888 ... mien-echo/

I saw Paradise Lost when I was in high school and it made a big impression on me. I still think they were railroaded and are innocent but this thread has certainly raised some questions...

[Project Willow]

He conducted the polygraphs of whom, I wonder?

I wondered that as well. I haven't found any details on it yet however.

Damien Echols currently lives in Salem Massachusetts (of all places!)

Yes, quite deliberately, and some of his neighbors are not happy about it: http://www.salemweb.com/discus/messages/13750/43690.html?1360772904

I read on one of the forums that Misskelley has had trouble already with DV allegations, but I can't find any press reports about it.

I have no doubt that due to his high profile, Echols will be welcomed into one group or another providing outlet and cover for his proclivities, if they still exist.

SHhhhhhhh.