Collapse Culture

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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:16 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:42 am wrote:
Iamwhomiam » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:51 pm wrote:How about you providing us with a link to your oft-repeated claim that McPherson claimed human extirpation by 2032? Or simply admit your error and move forward. At this point you are stifling further discussion.

Or are you completely unable to argue you point intelligently and factually?


One such example is located directly above the post I just quoted from, here's a link since it was apparently easy to miss: viewtopic.php?p=524690#p524690



Considering we're on a discussion forum I am increasingly baffled by the reaction to a new contributor, making contributions. If you assholes can get used to my friendly demeanor, I am not understanding your difficulty with Carol.


Sorry WRex, not an example to be drawn upon as it had not previously been offered in anything posted by our new poster where the claims were made.

Personally, I have nothing to lose, one way or another. I'll be long dead. It's your world, youngsters; act as you will. Take control to change the outcome or sit by idly. Enjoy your daily comforts while you can.

Calling us assholes because we reject the opinions of a newcomer, especially due to only their own rudeness to others, isn't helpful to anyone but our newcomer.

Yes, we are responsible for our reactions. I once suggested a topic be taken off the Discussion board and relegate it to the lounge, and how did that turn out? We lost two members, one banned and the other need time away This character is bad news. When in my eight years here have I ever suggested such a thing? Ignore my intuition once again.

Collapse theory is an economic argument in reality. Spend monies to reinvent industry without life-choking emissions or poisonous discharges, (adaption), and we will have a chance of survival or don't and life will end in barely imaginable horrors.

At least being called an asshole is not quite as bad as being ignored.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:29 pm

Place holder

Carol Newquist » Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:46 pm wrote: People gravitate to the notion of Collapse for many varied reasons and they emanate from an eclectic mix of backgrounds. However, many of them share one thing in common, and that is they appear to, if you look at it objectively and closely, be attempting to conjure Collapse.....a collective rain dance, of sorts. Not necessarily a conscious act, although there are instances where it may be, but a collectively unconscious wave of sorts.


Carol Newquist » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:03 am wrote:The idea of Egregores resonates deeply with me.


Carol Newquist » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm wrote:
Sasha Lilley wrote:The idea of a cleansing catastrophe flows naturally from reactionary politics.


Carol Newquist » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm wrote:
Janet Biehl and Peter Staudenmaier wrote:It is a specific set of social relations--above all, the competitive market economy--that is presently destroying the biosphere.


Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:12 am wrote:I follow it [this collapse culture] because I find it fascinating from a social and psychological perspective, and if you're a long-time reader of RI and dig the vibe, you can't help but look for the creeping elements of Fascism in a budding subculture that's quickly becoming cult-like in its collective behavior.


Carol Newquist » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:46 pm wrote:Humans are a part of nature every bit as much as that rock over there. We're not separate from it, although our Civilization likes to think it is. We are nature and nature is us.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Sounder » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:49 pm

I never thought much about collapse culture, it seems a bit defeatist and has an odd object of faith.


Scott Nearing wrote in 1972….
The perfect parrot was the perfect pupil …. As students in grammar school or in high school we seldom question the truth of any statement. Instead, our concern was to get each phrase exactly as the teacher or textbook stated it …. Imagine the effect of years of such training on the developing mind. The habit of mental conformity becomes almost ineradicable. I was merely one of generations of victims. How many teachers suggested to us that the established order was not all that it might be? Even the possibility of change was hinted at only vaguely. We were not rebels. We were not pioneers. We were not even enthusiastic or devout copyists. We were mere discs on which the language of our generation was cut. At certain intervals, called examination periods, we were expected to reproduce this language, word by word and paragraph by paragraph.


I had a similar epiphany in 1972 while in tenth grade, maybe it was something in the air.

Although mine came with an important distinction. It sticks in my craw when Nearing writes; ‘How many teachers suggested to us that the established order was not all that it might be?’ I (for one) have had many very special teachers that I will forever remember with love and gratitude.

Realization in this case came via my physics teacher, Mr. Castle (Mason) when he said; ‘The verifiability of a law is measured by the extent to which it can be applied.’ I looked around the room at my classmates, -nothing. One simple sentence that carried no apparent meaning content for others functioned to provide permission to do a series of dizzying thought experiments for me.

Sure, teachers operate within the context of society’s limitations as well as their own, but it’s up to the student to pay attention enough to see into the underpinnings of our context so as to do more than simply become hypnotized by existing forms of understanding.


(Now) Syncs are usually best kept to oneself; however one I had recently may serve to tie a few things together here, for somebody anyway.

When HandsomeB. Wonderful started his thread; I had passed through a minor bout of anxiety a half hour before turning on the computer. So I see Carol’s reply and find myself laughing out loud, (not a common occurrence), possibly because the source of the preceding anxiety traces to worry for my favorite brother and his possible use of Meth.

Only to be brought down seconds later by folk who seem to let their prejudices override their sense of humor. Oh well, such is life.

Anyway slad, Carol is a guy, and he is not evil, he is simply, like me, a middle child from a large Catholic family.

Thanks bph for the useful review.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:09 pm

my prejudice is that he/she whatever called me an enabler of sadistic pedophiles on his/her 2 day of posting here....so there's that...and I'm from a large catholic family also...never accused anyone here of that...I don't think he/she is evil...I just don't like he/she and have no use for he/she
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby bardobailey » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:59 pm

I am 85% convinced that our new poster is really a more sophisticated Iteration of cleverbot. I think DARPA is toying with us. I may be wrong, but I'm fascinated by the bizarre responses to disagreement she/he/it has been spewing out across many topics here. Personally, I love cleverbot and if this IS a new and better version, then I think exploring these exchanges for clues is exciting. Rock ON!
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:05 pm

Sounder, If I recall correctly, you do not appreciate being called something you're not. Neither do I. You weren't called a fascist eugenicist by Carol, so it's understandable you would find it non-offensive to you.

While some may appreciate Carol's words, I've sadly found nothing yet of any value. But that's just me.

From Wiki, Scott Nearing:
"that the economists part company with the ominous pictures of an overpopulated, starving world, prostrate before the throne of 'competition,' 'individual initiative,' 'private property,' or some other pseudo-god, and tell men in simple, straightforward language how they may combine, re-shape, or overcome the laws and utilize them as a blessing instead of enduring them as a burden and a curse."

Kinda relates to our topic.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Carol Newquist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:48 pm

Sounder said:

I never thought much about collapse culture, it seems a bit defeatist and has an odd object of faith.


That's very wise of you, Sounder. I've thought about it obviously, and as I've said, researched and explored it, and as part of that research have gone, on occasion, too native and allowed the vortex surrounding it to grip me, at least momentarily. But each time, I've shaken it loose, and the end result is deeper and greater insight into the phenomenon. I'm not a fan of anyone or anything. I think the concept of fan is regressive and oppressive, but John Michael Greer, who will be a part of this discussion at some point, had this to say about some in the Collapse Culture. I found it impressive and it resonated with me and validated some of my very same sentiments and thoughts on the subject. It raised quite a stir, as you can well imagine. Here it is:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-pleasures-of-extinction.html

The Pleasures of Extinction

One of the wry pleasures that’s repeatedly come my way since the beginning of this blog seven years ago is that of watching a good many of my predictions come true in short order. Now it’s true that I’ve also made a certain number of failed predictions over that time. Back in 2007 and 2008, for instance, I insisted that the US government wouldn’t be dumb enough to try to cover its ballooning budget deficits by spinning the printing presses; some idiocies, I thought, were too extreme even for the inmates of the current American political class. As th Fed proceeds merrily through yet another round of quantitative easing, that assumption has proved to be rather too naive.

Even so, my batting average so far has been pretty respectable. In the early days of this blog, for example, Daniel Yergin was insisting at the top of his lungs that the price of oil would settle down shortly to a long-term plateau of $38 a barrel, while fans of a dozen different alternative technologies were claiming just as stridently that if the price of oil ever got to the unthinkable level of $60 a barrel, the technology they favored would be profitable enough to sweep all before it. There were very few of us back then who predicted that oil would go quite a bit past $60 a barrel and stay there, and even fewer who pointed out that abundant cheap fossil fuel energy made alternatives look much more viable than they were. These days, with oil wobbling around $100 a barrel and most of the alternatives still wholly dependent on government subsidies, that turned out to be tolerably prescient.

Over the last few weeks, another of my predictions has turned out spot on the money. A little less than six months ago, as New Age bookstores around the world were quietly emptying entire bookshelves dedicated to December 21, 2012 and putting 50%-off stickers on the contents, I noted in a blog post here that it wouldn’t be long before people who were looking for an excuse to put off doing anything about the crisis of industrial society would have a replacement for 2012.

Well, it’s here. The latest apocalyptic fad is near-term human extinction, or NTE for short: the claim that humanity, along with most other life on Earth, will inevitably be extinct by 2030 at the latest.

It’s probably necessary to say up front that humanity will certainly go extinct eventually—no species lasts forever—and there’s always the chance that it could happen in short order; a stray asteroid with enough mass, or a few rearranged codons in some virus nobody’s heard about yet, could do the job quite readily. Still, there’s a great difference between claiming that human extinction is possible and insisting that it’s certainly going to happen in the next seventeen years, especially when the arguments used to defend that claim amount to nothing more than an insistence that worst-case scenarios are the only possible outcome.

There’s a tolerably long history to such claims. When I was growing up in the 1970s, there were people on the far end of the environmental movement who insisted that humanity would certainly be extinct before the year 2000, and the same prediction has been repeated with different dates and justifications ever since. Those of my readers who remember the Solar Temple mass suicides of 1994 and 1995 may recall that the collective suicide note left behind by the members of that ill-fated order made exactly that claim: Earth would be uninhabitable by the year 2000, Solar Temple founder Luc Jouret insisted, and so the initiates of the Solar Temple were getting out while the getting was good.

In the early days of the peak oil movement, similarly, the same insistence on imminent extinction popped up tolerably often. I was convinced at the time, and remain convinced today, that this was largely a product of an odd and very American habit I’ve termed "apocalypse machismo." One consequence of America’s pervasive anti-intellectualism, with its frankly weird equation of manhood with chest-thumping brainlessness, is that many male American intellectuals end up burdened by doubts about their own masculinity, and some of them respond by trying to talk as tough as possible; intellectual women in this male-dominated culture find they often have to copy that same habit, sometimes to even greater extremes, in order to get taken seriously at all. This has been a major factor all through America’s recent history; the neoconservative movement, packed as it was with academic intellectuals whose obsession with proving their own virility on a global stage drove them into one foreign policy fiasco after another, makes as good a poster child as any.

In the same way, we had a lot of apocalypse machismo in the early peak oil movement. In the first few years of this blog, for that matter, I could count on fielding (and deleting) a comment every month or two from somebody who wanted to talk about the new scenario for imminent human extinction he’d just worked up. The Deepwater Horizon blowout and the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear meltdown fielded a bumper crop of the same thing; those of my readers who doubt this are invited to go digging back through the archives of any unmoderated peak oil forum, where they’ll find, in the days and weeks immediately following each of these disasters, colorful if implausible scenarios predicting the imminent demise of all life on earth presented as sober fact.

No doubt there’s at least some of that at work in the sudden surge of interest in near-term human extinction, but I question whether it’s the main driving force this time around. There are at least two other factors that are likely to be involved, and one of them unfolds directly from the points made in the last few posts in the current sequence.

The shape of time sketched out by Augustine of Hippo in the pages of The City of God, and adopted thereafter by most of the western world until the rise of the later mythology of perpetual progress, allows a range of variations. Even within the mainstream of western Christianity, the options extend over a much broader landscape than most of my readers may realize, and the versions of the Augustinian mythos found outside the Christian mainstream are even more diverse. In his useful 1998 book Millennium Rage, sociologist Philip Lamy argued that most beliefs about the future in today’s America are "fractured apocalypses," in which the events foretold in the Book of Revelation are pulled out of context and rearranged in response to contemporary social trends.

His insight can be applied a good deal more generally: the whole Augustinian story has been subjected to similar treatment. Eden, the Fall, the vale of tears, the righteous remnant, the redeeming revelation, the rising struggle between good and evil, the final catastrophe and the return to paradise thereafter—you’ll find these, or most of these, in a great many current belief systems, but the order and relative importance of each element may vary, and it’s far from uncommon for one or two of the classic themes of the story to be stretched nearly out of recognition, or deleted entirely.

One detail that often comes in for serious reworking in modern social movements is the final step, the one in which the elect are welcomed back into paradise while everyone else is herded into the lake of fire to be punished for all eternity. The habit of morphological thinking discussed earlier in this sequence of posts is of crucial importance here: take a close look at the development over time of social movements that embrace the Augustinian narrative, and the historical shifts in that last part of the story have a fascinating message to communicate.

The wave of Christian fundamentalism that’s currently breaking and flowing back out to sea makes a good case in point. Back in the days of the Jesus People and the Good News Bible, when that wave first began building, its rhetoric was triumphant: the whole nation was turning to Christ, the rest of the world would surely follow, and the imminent Second Coming would see everyone but a few stubborn sinners rushing forward joyfully to embrace God’s infinite love. Fast forward a couple of decades, and the proportion between the saved and the damned shifted significantly closer to the sort of thing you’d hear in an old-fashioned hellfire-and-brimstone sermon, but the saved were still utterly convinced of their own salvation: those were the days when "In Case Of Rapture, This Car Will Be Unoccupied" bumper stickers sprouted on the rear ends of cars all over America.

You won’t see too many of those bumper stickers these days. Just as the optimistic faith that a new generation could win the world for Christ gave way gradually to the far more pessimistic vision of a world mired in wickedness from which the elect would shortly be teleported to safety—beamed up by St. Scotty, as the joke had it, to the bridge of the USS Enterchrist—so the serene confidence on the part of believers that they would be numbered among the elect has been replaced, in these latter days of the movement, by an increasingly pervasive sense of sin and unworthiness. Too many dates for the Rapture have come and gone, too many once-respected preachers have been caught with their pants around their ankles in one sense or another, and the well-founded suspicion that the Republican party is using the evangelical churches every bit as cynically and shamelessly as the Democratic party is using the environmental movement has got to weigh on a lot of once-hopeful minds.

Christian theology places hard limits on just how far the exclusion from future blessedness can extend, as there has to be "a great multitude, which no man could number" (Revelations 7:9) of the saved gathered around the throne of God when the boom comes down. Outside Christianity, the same process routinely goes much further. A good example is the New Age movement, which emerged out of a variety of older fringe spiritualities right around the same time that the current round of Christian fundamentalism got going in America. The early days of the New Age movement were pervaded by the same optimistic sense that a new and more enlightened epoch was about to dawn, and everyone—even, or especially, those who made fun of the movement’s pretensions—would soon fall in line.

As the movement matured and the New Age stubbornly refused to arrive, in turn, the same mood shift that affected fundamentalism had a comparable impact; New Age teachers began to talk more about the ascension of enlightened individuals into higher planes of being, the activities of evil powers who were maintaining the illusion of a world of limits, and the imminence of a world-cleansing cataclysm that would finally get around to ushering in the New Age. By the time the hoopla began building over 2012, finally, the prophecies trotted out in advance of that much-ballyhooed nonevent ranged all over the map; there were still optimists of the old school, who insisted that a great shift in consciousness would make everyone get around to agreeing with them; there were many more who expected mass death to leave the world purified for the usual minority of the elect; and there were no small number who were retailing scenarios in which the entire human race would be exterminated.

This is a familiar rhythm in the history of American popular spirituality. At regular intervals, some movement that’s existed out on the fringes for decades suddenly gets a mass following, turns into a pop culture phenomenon, and has thirty to forty years of popularity before it returns to the fringes. Some traditions repeat the process; Christian fundamentalism has had two periods of pop stardom—once between the Roaring Nineties and the Great Depression, and then again from the late 1970s to the present—and a strong case could be made that the New Age movement is a rehash of the vogue for occultism that was so huge a part of American pop culture between 1890 and 1929. Other movements fill the void when the ones just named head for the fringes; from the 1930s to the 1970s, liberal Christian churches were a dominant force in American religion, and there’s some reason to think that the pendulum is headed the same way again as fundamentalism sunsets out a second time.

If human beings were rational actors, as economists like to imagine, they wouldn’t respond to the disconfirmation of their beliefs by postulating world-wrecking catastrophes. Here as elsewhere, though, the fond fantasies of economists stand up poorly as models for predicting events in the real world. If you haven’t had the experience of devoting decades of your life to a failed belief system, dear reader, try to put yourself into such a person’s shoes. It would take a degree of equanimity rare even among saints to look back on such an experience without harvesting a bumper crop of resentment, grief and guilt—and if fantasies of apocalyptic destruction play any role at all in your belief system, one way to deal with those difficult emotions in their first and rawest forms is to pour them into a belief in some cataclysm big enough to punish the world and everyone in it for their failure to live up to your hopes.

The environmental movement is not a religion, but its course in America in recent decades followed the pattern I’ve just outlined. Like fundamentalism and the New Age movement, it came in from the fringe in the 1970s with the same sense of imminent triumph that guided the other movements I’ve named. Its transformation from a charismatic movement of outsiders to a set of bureaucratic institutions closely intertwined with the existing order of society followed the same trajectory as fundamentalist churches, and its sense of triumphant expectancy faded out at roughly the same pace, replaced by the same struggle against evil that brought fundamentalist Christians into their devil’s pact with the GOP and inspired New Age believers to embrace conspiracy theories and the paranoid fantasies of David Icke.

At this point, roughly in parallel with fundamentalism and the New Age, the environmental movement is having to come face to face with the total failure of its hopes. Back in the heady days of its early successes, the vision that guided it saw environmental protection as the next step forward in the same trajectory of social progress that included the civil rights movement and second wave feminism; it was in this spirit, for example, that environmental lawyers proposed that trees be given legal standing. The hope all along was that industrial civilization could achieve a permanent peace with the world of nature and continue up the infinite road of progress without leaving a scorched and looted planet in its wake.

That hope is dead. If there was ever a chance to achieve it, it went whistling down the wind decades ago, and at this point the jaws of resource depletion and environmental degradation are tightening around the collective throat of the world’s industrial societies, in exactly the fashion predicted in detail forty years ago in the pages of The Limits to Growth. Even if the green technologies promoted by an increasingly frantic minority of environmentalists could support something like today’s rates of energy use, which they can’t, we can no longer afford the sort of massive buildout of those technologies that would be necessary to supplant even a significant part of our current fossil fuel consumption. If what’s left of the environmental movement managed to overcome its own internal dysfunctions and the formidable opposition of its foes, and became a mass movement again, the most it could accomplish at this point would be the protection of some of the most vulnerable ecosystems as industrial society stumbles down the first bitter steps of the long descent into the deindustrial future.

That’s still a goal worth achieving, but it’s not the goal to which the environmental mainstream committed itself when it embraced a role among the socially acceptable institutions of American public life, with the perks and salaries that this status involves. This explains, I suggest, the way that certain mainstream environmentalists have turned to proselytizing for nuclear power and other frankly ecocidal technologies, under the curious delusion that "possibly a little better than the worst" somehow amounts to "good." The desperation in such rhetoric is palpable, and signals the end of the road—an end that, in this case as in the others I’ve cited, involves a good many fantasies of total destruction.

Still, there’s another factor here, and it unfolds from one of the least creditable aspects of the way that the environmental movement has evolved over time. It has become increasingly clear that the perks, the salaries, and the comfortable middle class lifestyles embraced so enthusiastically by so many people in the movement are themselves part of the problem. I was intrigued to read earlier this month a thoughtful essay by leading British climate scientist Kevin Anderson arguing, in terms that will sound very familiar to regular readers of The Archdruid Report, that the failure of climate change activism to make any headway in changing people’s behavior may have more than a little to do with the fact that the people who are urging such changes aren’t making them themselves.

I have no reason to think that Anderson reads my blog or, for that matter, knows me from Hu Gadarn’s off ox, but then you don’t need to wear an archdruid’s funny hat to notice that people these days are acutely sensitive to signs of hypocrisy, or to grasp that even the most vital changes aren’t going to happen if even the people who are most aware of their importance aren’t willing to start making them in their own lives. For reasons a post last year discussed at some length, those who have built their lives on the fantasy that it’s possible to have their planet and eat it too are not going to find such reflections welcome, or even bearable.

Fantasies of imminent human extinction are one comforting if futile response to this ugly predicament. If you want a justification for living as though there’s no tomorrow, insisting that in fact, there’s no tomorrow is certainly one option. If I’m right, the pleasures of believing in near-term human extinction are likely to appeal to a very large and well-heeled audience in the years immediately ahead, and those of my readers interested in cashing in on the next 2012-style bonanza should probably take note.


Greer is a great writer, you must admit, and he's a deep and thorough thinker, if not a bit wandering and redundant at times. I have some criticisms of him I will discuss later, but of all the voices in the budding Collapse Culture cottage industry, he's the one who truly espouses a long, slow contraction....to a time where we can worship freely in fields as Druids, I suppose.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Carol Newquist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:59 pm

Sounder, that was a great Scott Nearing quote. Thanks for that. I couldn't agree more. The following quote wasn't taught in our schooling training, was it? I wonder why?

That which you manifest is before you.
~Enzo


Of course, this sidebar in the discussion wouldn't be appropriate without the proper accompanying music to support that sidebar. What confounds me is that this was an incredibly popular song in its day and still is, and yet it's as though no one gets it.

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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Carol Newquist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:37 am

In a follow-up post, I will be speaking to the following link provided by justdrew in the Idle No More thread because I believe there are elements that are applicable to this discussion. Specifically, Collapse not only as a budding subculture, but also Collapse as a budding social movement. For example, McPherson's thesis and message is gaining steam and popularity, and the dissection of this social movement subversion manual can be analyzed against the backdrop of the rise of this potential movement.

http://www.oneeyedman.net/misc/social_movement_subversion.pdf

Here's what I mean when I say McPherson's message is gaining steam.

http://guymcpherson.com/2013/10/overwhelmed-2/

Overwhelmed

by Guy McPherson Sat, Oct 19, 2013

I’m asked to speak very frequently. Sometimes these are simple affairs in a single city with few events. But very often they are multi-city speaking tours with several events. It’s overwhelmed my organizational abilities, which were sketchy to begin with.

I need help. Specifically, I would appreciate a well-organized volunteer who is willing to interact with people to organize speaking tours. If you’re interested and in a position to work for no money — albeit with the occasional gift — I want to hear from you.

Desired skills include: pleasant phone manner, ability to use Microsoft Word, adept at using social media, and excellent organizational skills. On the latter topic, I desire somebody with the willingness and ability to keep track of many events with many people in many places, all at the same time.

Let’s start with email (guy.r.mcpherson@gmail.com). Describe your skills, let me know your availability, and give me a list of questions. From there, we’ll probably proceed to Skype or a telephone call.

Thanks for your consideration. I look forward to hearing from you.


I know, incredible, right? Someone has already responded and is more than willing to volunteer to help McPherson deliver the message of We're Done to every highway and byway....including schools. I say, get them young....so they should consider preschoolers. Hey kids, don't bother. You're dead. Be happy. The guy is apparently an entrepreneur who wants to lend a hand, so I have to ask, no more restaurants? You've had a nice time starting restaurants including two of your own and probably made a lot of money doing it, and now you want to tell someone young just starting out doing the same thing that they're fucked so don't bother? Nice. Yet another example of the depravity of the Baby Boom generation. It turned counter-culture into Me First and went for the gold, and now that they've exhausted that path, they want to spend the rest of their time self-actualizing by becoming Profits of Doom. Yes, that pun was intended.

Peter Says:
October 19th, 2013 at 3:15 am

Guy,

I’d like to work with you on your speaking engagements. We’ve exchanged messages, but that’s about it.

As to experience and organization, I’ve spoken out on environmental issues since high school. I’ve opened over 25 restaurants in the Bay Area, as well as have had two of my own. As a consultant, I’ve opened, as well as held the title of General Manager of two of the largest nightclubs in the Bay Area. I suspect that this would qualify myself as being reasonably well organized.

In addition I was responsible for feeding information to the reporter that resulted in a front page article in the San Francisco Chronicle on salt water intrusion in the Salinas Valley.

Presently, I’m considering a change and I find your stance as well as your choice of subject matter worth championing. I’m sure you will have a number of people offering help, and with my past experience, I’m sure you’ll sift through a number of people, and make a “short list”.

Should you find yourself coming up “short”, please feel free to drop me a line. As I’ve said, I have an idea of what you’re going through, and because I’ve worked in the hospitality industry, I’m aware of what a “guest experience” is all about. Ideally, the travel arrangements, the reception, the speaking engagement itself, and the scheduling your return home and the follow up contacts with the people who had you speak, and possible donations are what needs to be co-ordinated.

At this point, I’m discussing with some of the schools and groups, you possibly speaking in the San Francisco and Monterey Bay areas, in which case, I’ll let my work speak for itself.

Should you wish to speak further, I believe you have my contact information.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby bardobailey » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:19 pm

What can you possibly gain by being so annoying?
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby Carol Newquist » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:36 pm

Alright, now let's get to this social movement subversion pdf. Glancing over the title page, it says it was downloaded from the Moscow State University site. How odd. Here's what it says precisely:

This article was downloaded by: [Moskow State Univ Bibliote]
On: 09 September 2013, At: 12:03
Publisher: Routledge
Informa Ltd Registered in England and Wales Registered Number: 1072954 Registered
office: Mortimer House, 37-41 Mortimer Street, London W1T 3JH, UK


Why download it from the Moskow State University site when it's available many different places? Why would Moscow State University be any more trustworthy than any Western website? Something to consider, especially when within the body of this pdf, it gives a link to the source of this article as follows:



I find the name of the article ironic, but before I tell you why, here's the title:

Subversion of Social Movements by Adversarial Agents

The irony is juxtaposing the title with the background of the author. He's a self-proclaimed intelligence asset, and yet here he is, hiding the Family Jewels in plain sight. Why would he, or better yet, why would they, meaning the intelligence services, reveal their tried and true trade secrets...i.e. the Family Jewels? Here's how Eric L. Jackson (isn't that a great Norman Rockwell, all-american name....it makes me think of baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, Chevrolet and i-phones) describes himself:

A former counterintelligence agent with a U.S. government organization, is also a former police officer who worked in one of America’s most violent cities. Holder of three Master’s degrees, he is currently completing a doctorate in Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of California, Davis, through its individualized Ph.D. program.


Sounds like a nice, clean-cut guy...who just so happens to aid and abet, for a paycheck because everyone has their job to do, the sadistic torture and murder of innocent people the world over. You know the type.

So, back to the question of why reveal these dirty tricks to the groups you allegedly are trying to infiltrate, subvert, co-opt and/or destroy. It doesn't make any sense, right? Wrong, it makes sense if you change your perspective and realize it's meant to foster and strengthen group and movement cohesion, not destroy it. And that only makes sense if the groups and/or movements are the brainchild and creation of the intelligence services. The intelligence services, imo, are responsible for, amongst other things, creating and containing dissent of the System. This manual helps them accomplish that in many ways. Let's start with the opening statement that tells us what a social movement is and how it operates. Already, there's containment with this statement, but we can learn from it by doing the opposite.

Social movements share a desire for structural change, and a willingness to
do something about it. This broad definition explains the actions of members of an Iron Workers local picketing a non-union construction site; Ukrainian Femen activists who, while visiting Turkey, stage a protest against sulfuric acid attacks on women and girls;15-M public gatherings in Spain that protest the political power of banks and cuts to social programs; and, the series of revolts which began in Tunisia in December 2010, that spread in some manner to seventeen other countries in the Middle East and north Africa. Evidently, the domain of social movements varies from local to trans-national. As used here, social movements can include matters of politics, religion, ethnicity, labor, economy, and justice, among others.

Regardless of size, one fact about social movements is unchanging: their physical embodiment is always local. That is, social movements are the sum of the actions of individuals who are themselves in only one place—omnipresence is something that exists only in fantasy movies. Thus, efforts by opposing organizations to subvert social movements are themselves always local. National intelligence may perhaps, through the monitoring of social media and electronic communications, identify individuals who are planning a protest. Ultimately though, specific operators personally carry out lawful or sometimes unlawful acts of subversion, openly or covertly, in acting against targeted persons located in specific places.......


I take it that this description of social movement groups is the way they like it. Keep it smaller, local and fragmented, because like a controlled burn, if you don't enact proper containment, the fire could quickly breach your barriers and spin out of control, burning down your edifice and all its meant to protect. An effective movement, one not created by these scumbags, should keep this in mind. A truly effective movement does not seek water-downed and feckless concessions from the System, or as the author euphemistically puts it, structural changes, as if....yeah right. An effective movement overthrows the structure entirely and replaces it with a more just and egalitarian structure. You don't bargain with this System. You replace it in its entirety. But, obviously, the intelligence services don't want anyone thinking like that, so they'll define social movements for your edification so you'll behave according to plan, and most do....behave according to plan. The ones that don't are destroyed via the tactics in this manual, and of course, the authors of this manual are the only ones in a position to implement these procedures effectively, so it works both ways for them, and no way for us, unless we see this for what it is, and what it is...is what I've just described.

In the next post, I will explain why the purpose of the manual is to strengthen group/movement cohesion and how it relates to Collapse Culture.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby peartreed » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:44 pm

“Here's how Eric L. Jackson (isn't that a great Norman Rockwell, all-american name....it makes me think of baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, Chevrolet and i-phones) describes himself:”

Actually his name is Eric L. Nelson. That could make me think of anything from Trafalgar Square columns to Willy the nasal country singer. Your erroneous substitution of the surname Jackson makes me think of Andrew the revolutionary and Michael the pop icon, both of whom are as animated now as your argument that the subversion article is part of a plot by spooks to create cohesion amongst enemies of “The System”.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:47 pm

Carol Newquist » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:36 pm wrote:
So, back to the question of why reveal these dirty tricks to the groups you allegedly are trying to infiltrate, subvert, co-opt and/or destroy. It doesn't make any sense, right? Wrong, it makes sense if you change your perspective and realize it's meant to foster and strengthen group and movement cohesion, not destroy it. And that only makes sense if the groups and/or movements are the brainchild and creation of the intelligence services.


There's another way it makes sense. It's not a revelation at all and there is nothing in it not already known.


The intelligence services, imo, are responsible for, amongst other things, creating and containing dissent of the System. This manual helps them accomplish that in many ways. Let's start with the opening statement that tells us what a social movement is and how it operates. Already, there's containment with this statement, but we can learn from it by doing the opposite.


Are you suggesting the manual functions to contain a social movement by virtue of individuals in the social movement reading the manual and limiting themselves based on the definition of social movements in the manual?

It seems like that is what you are saying.

In the next post, I will explain why the purpose of the manual is to strengthen group/movement cohesion and how it relates to Collapse Culture.


That would be helpful.

Also,

Do you you consider McPherson to be primarily coming from the right or the left end of the political spectrum?

Carol Newquist » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:28 am wrote:
Back to Tanton. His organization has voiced rhetoric that the environment is being destroyed and therefore it is incumbent on us all to reduce the U.S. population number to a sustainable level, whatever that means in their twisted minds. If you'd like, I can point to articles that describe how some, and not just an anomalous few, are cottoning to this Tanton vibe and agreeing that the population number of the U.S. needs to decline and Immigration Reform, meaning blocking immigration from Mexico and scapegoating poor, desperate and increasingly ghettoized Mexicans, is a good place to start. Those who are cottoning to it are self-described environmentalists. All self-described environmentalists? Of course not. But some, yes.


Do you have an opinion on what sort of environmentalists? You seem to understand that they are not all granola munching hippies.

and are you wanting to warn environmentalists away from the Cornelia Mellon Scaife created Tantons of the world?
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby OuishAgain » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:11 pm

I wasn't aware of Collapse Culture as a thing and I'm not getting a clear picture of it in this thread.

I did stop reading John Howard Kunstler's blog because every week it was another melodramatic picture of immanent world destruction, with a reactionary subtext of gloating moral satisfaction, as if the collapse was going to force us all to straighten out and live right. After a couple of years it gets old.
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Re: Collapse Culture

Postby LolaB » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:58 am

Not sure about which thread this belongs in, or what's going on over there. However I did appreciate the image of a suited, crew cut banker being handcuffed by swat types.

http://rt.com/business/master-bank-license-revoke-021/

Record $1bn payout expected as Russian regulator pulls plug on ‘dubious’ bank
Russia’s Central Bank (CBR) has revoked the license of Master Bank over $61 million in alleged illegal banking transactions. Over 1000 ATMs are frozen, and the head office is being raided by police.
The withdrawal of Master Bank's license means that its estimated $1.5 billion (47.4 billion rubles) in private funds are now frozen, with Russia’s Deposit Insurance Agency promising to pay out $917 million (30 billion rubles) to bank customers by December 4.
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