Fascists are the Tools of the State

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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:29 pm

jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:13 am wrote:In the context of this thread though, would you say that these nazis were tools of the state? Or are we talking about something else now.


Of course I'm aware that you're continuing to avoid taking an anti-fascist stand- or any stand, really- regarding the violence in Malmo, but I'll indulge your attempts at distraction a bit:

I would say that there is evidence to suggest that these radical right wing creeps are enjoying- at minimum- protection from the State apparatus and that this is part of a continent wide pattern directly relating to GLADIO. That they have also pursued parliamentary power, along with their comrades in arms from Jobbik in Hungary, Svoboda in Ukraine and the Golden Dawn in Greece is indisputable and should be extremely disturbing to anyone with even minimal political/moral sense. That the ruling elites will really let them get so far in running things seems doubtful- seems much more likely that they are now useful to the powers that be.

Anti-fascists are out in the street against these creepos, as well they should be.

Don't you agree, jakell?
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:40 pm

I see, so you are positing a non nationalistic overview of these nationalistic movements, and one that is functional to the extent of being able to control and even extinguish them if necessary

That's an interesting idea, but I can't really see it bearing fruit. My own interest lies in how these movements arise organically and individually, and particularly in my own country, because in these particulars lie their strengths and weaknesses. This may seem a bit parochial to CT guys, but is borne of being up close and personal to the issues and I can't really allow myself to speculate
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:55 pm

jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:40 pm wrote:I see, so you are positing a non nationalistic overview of these nationalistic movements, and one that is functional to the extent of being able to control and even extinguish them if necessary

That's an interesting idea, but I can't really see it bearing fruit. My own interest lies in how these movements arise organically and individually, and particularly in my own country, because in these particulars lie their strengths and weaknesses. This may seem a bit parochial to CT guys, but is borne of being up close and personal to the issues and I can't really allow myself to speculate


More distraction.

None of that fundamentally changes the fact that "these radical right wing creeps are enjoying- at minimum- protection from the State apparatus and that this is part of a continent wide pattern directly relating to GLADIO".

Neither that anti-fascists are "out in the street against these creepos, as well they should be".
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:08 pm

Hardly a distraction, I simply described my own approach and contrasted it to yours. Like I've already said, you seem to be coming from somewhere else, and I'm quiet content with that distance.

I thought your 'out on the streets against' comment was silly the first time, but ignored it. However, now you've repeated it I should point out that, unless it applies to you personally**, it is meaningless hot air.

**are you Swedish?
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:13 pm

jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:08 pm wrote:Hardly a distraction, I simply described my own approach and contrasted it to yours. Like I've already said, you seem to be coming from somewhere else, and I'm quiet content with that distance.

I thought your 'out on the streets against' comment was silly the first time, but ignored it. However, now you've repeated it I should point out that, unless it applies to you personally**, it is meaningless hot air.

**are you Swedish?


You keep trumpeting your anti-fascist credentials, and yet this.

You know there's mostly conspiracy investigators around here, don't you?
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:33 pm

...and we find both sides of this conversation pretty fucking boring!
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:40 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:33 pm wrote:...and we find both sides of this conversation pretty fucking boring!


Maybe for you- but elements of the State participating in a continent-wide network arming, training and/or protecting neo-fascist proxies seems pretty fucking important to me...



.
Last edited by American Dream on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:40 pm

:megaphone: must...keep....all things fascistic...near...top...of...GD...
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:44 pm

coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:40 pm wrote::megaphone: must...keep....all things fascistic...near...top...of...GD...


What with jakell's advocacy for his very strange position here, neo-fascist shenanigans seems much more relevant than it would be otherwise.
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:12 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:33 pm wrote:...and we find both sides of this conversation pretty fucking boring!


I had hoped I'd been doing pretty well at avoiding AD's invitation to bitter argumentation (which I know you've seen plenty of). Or maybe I have, and that is what is deemed boring.

There's hopefully a meta-subject here, and that is how to broach this subject without falling into the old patterns. Let's face it, the forum's approach of avoidance has not really worked, it's just resulted in multiple threads full of really long C&P's, a lot of these repeated several times and recently cross posted for no apparent reason.
I'm looking at a possible middle ground.
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:48 pm

American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:44 pm wrote:
coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:40 pm wrote::megaphone: must...keep....all things fascistic...near...top...of...GD...


What with jakell's advocacy for his very strange position here, neo-fascist shenanigans seems much more relevant than it would be otherwise.


This started well before Jakell got here, AD. Rather than a witchhunt for phantoms, subscription to holding our own leaders accountable would be more productive, but far less glamourous. Or righteous. Don't worry, I'm finished commenting on these threads now.
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:09 pm

coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:48 pm wrote:
American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:44 pm wrote:
coffin_dodger » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:40 pm wrote::megaphone: must...keep....all things fascistic...near...top...of...GD...


What with jakell's advocacy for his very strange position here, neo-fascist shenanigans seems much more relevant than it would be otherwise.


This started well before Jakell got here, AD. Rather than a witchhunt for phantoms, subscription to holding our own leaders accountable would be more productive, but far less glamourous. Or righteous. Don't worry, I'm finished commenting on these threads now.


False dichotomy- especially in this case, where leading elements of the State have been handling, training, grooming and/or protecting neo-fascists as a plausibly deniable instrument of their will.

Also, as far as those who seem to have come here to organize/advocate for a far Right cause, I'm recalling an extended interaction with one neo-secessionist who was advocationg for some kind of neo-Confederate cause What's it to you?
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:37 pm

Perhaps the most famous example, but certainly not the only one:

FRATERNAL BONDS

Two ancient, mysterious, international fraternities kept the loosely-linked Gladio programs from flying apart. The Knights of Malta played a formative role after the war (see box), but the order of Freemasonry and its most notorious lodge in Italy, known as Propaganda Due (pronounced ``doo-ay'' ), or P-2, was far more influential. In the late 1960s, its ``Most Venerable Master'' was Licio Gelli, a Knight of Malta who fought for Franco with Mussolini's Black Shirts. At the end of World War II, Gelli faced execution by Italian partisans for his Nazi collaboration, but escaped by joining the U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corps. 23 In the 1950s, he was recruited by SIFAR.

After some years of self-imposed exile in Argentine fascist circles,24 he saw his calling in Italy as a Mason. Quickly rising to its top post, he began fraternizing in 1969 with Gen. Alexander Haig, then assistant to Henry Kissinger, President Nixon's national security chief. Gelli became the main intermediary between the CIA and SID's De Lorenzo, also a Mason and Knight. Gelli's first order from the White House was reportedly to recruit 400 more top Italian and NATO officials. 25

To help ferret out dissidents, Gelli and De Lorenzo began compiling personal dossiers on thousands of people, including legislators and clerics. 26 Within a few years, scandal erupted when an inquiry found 157,000 such files in SID, all available to the Ministers of Defense and Interior. 27 Parliament ordered 34,000 files burned, but by then the CIA had obtained duplicates for its archives. 28

Provocateurs on the Right

In 1968, the Americans started formal commando training for the gladiators at the clandestine Sardinian ``NATO'' base. Within a few years, 4,000 graduates had been placed in strategic posts. At least 139 arms caches, including some at carabinieri barracks, were at their disposal. 29 To induce young men to join such a risky venture, the CIA paid high salaries and promised that if they were killed, their children would be educated at U.S. expense. 30

Tensions began to reach critical mass that same year. While dissidents took to the streets all over the world, in Italy, takeovers of universities and strikes for higher wages and pensions were overshadowed by a series of bloody political crimes. The number of terrorist acts reached 147 in 1968, rising to 398 the next year, and to an incredible peak of 2,498 in 1978 before tapering off, largely because of a new law encouraging informers ( penitenti ). 31 Until 1974, the indiscriminate bombers of the right constituted the main force behind political violence.

The first major explosion occurred in 1969 in Milan's Piazza Fontana; it killed 18 people and injured 90. In this and numerous other massacres, anarchists proved handy scapegoats for fascist provocateurs seeking to blame the left. Responding to a phone tip after the Milan massacre, police arrested 150 alleged anarchists and even put some on trial. But two years later, new evidence led to the indictment of several neofascists and SID officers. Three innocent anarchists were convicted, but later absolved, while those responsible for the attack emerged unpunished by Italian justice. 32

Conclusive Gladio links to political violence were found after a plane exploded in flight near Venice in November 1973. Venetian judge Carlo Mastelloni determined that the Argo-16 aircraft was used to shuttle trainees and munitions between the U.S. base in Sardinia and Gladio sites in northeast Italy.33 The apogee of right-wing terror came in 1974 with two massacres. One, a bombing at an antifascist rally in Brescia, killed eight and injured 102. The other was an explosion on the Italicus train near Bologna, killing 12 and wounding 105. At this point, President Giovanni Leone, with little exaggeration, summed up the situation: "With 10,000 armed civilians running around, as usual, I'm president of shit." 34

At Brescia, the initial call to police also blamed anarchists, but the malefactor later turned out to be a secret agent in the Parallel SID. 35 A similar connection was also alleged in the Italicus case. Two fascists who were eventually convicted were members of a clandestine police group called the Black Dragons, according to the left-wing paper, Lotta Continua. 36 Their sentences were also overturned. Although in these and other cases, many leftists were arrested and tried, fascists or neofascists were often the culprits, in league with Gladio groups and the Italian secret services. Reflecting the degree to which these forces controlled the government through the Parallel SID, nearly all the rightists implicated in these atrocities were later freed.

By 1974, right-wing terror began to be answered by the armed left, which favored carefully targeted hit-and-run attacks over the right's indiscriminate bombings. For the next six years, leftist militants, especially the Red Brigades, responded with a vengeance, accounting for far more acts of political violence than the right. 37 For several years, Italy plunged into a virtual civil war.

PLOTTING COUPS D'ETAT

Meanwhile, groups of right-wingers were busy planning more takeovers of the elected government, with the active encouragement of U.S. officials. A seminal document was the 1970 132-page order on ``stability operations'' in ``host'' countries, published as Supplement B of the U.S. Army's Field Manual 30-31. Taking its cue from earlier NSC and CIA papers, the manual explained that if a country is not sufficiently anticommunist, ``serious attention must be given to possible modifications of the structure.'' If that country does not react with adequate ``vigor,'' the document continues, ``groups acting under U.S. Army intelligence control should be used to launch violent or nonviolent actions according to the nature of the case.'' 38

With such incendiary suggestions and thousands of U.S.-trained guerrillas ready, the fascists again attempted to take over the government by force in 1970. This time, the instigator was the ``Black Prince'' Borghese. Fifty men under the command of Stefano Delle Chiaie seized the Interior Ministry in Rome after being let in at night by an aide to political police head Federico D'Amato. But the operation was aborted when Borghese received a mysterious phone call later attributed to General Vito Miceli, the military intelligence chief. The plotters were not arrested; instead, they left with 180 stolen machine guns. 39

News of the attack remained secret until an informer tipped the press three months later. By then, the culprits had escaped to Spain. Although the ringleaders were convicted in 1975, the verdict was overturned on appeal. All but one of the machine guns were returned earlier. 40

It was in this atmosphere that the U.S. decided to make another all-out effort to block the communists from gaining strength in the 1972 elections. According to the Pike Report, the CIA disbursed $10 million to 21 candidates, mostly Christian Democrats. 41 That amount did not include $800,000 that Ambassador Graham Martin, going around the CIA, obtained through Henry Kissinger at the White House for General Miceli. 42 Miceli would later face charges for the Borghese coup attempt but, fitting the pattern, he was cleared.

Police foiled another attempted coup that same year. They found hit lists and other documents exposing some 20 subversive groups forming the Parallel SID structure. Roberto Cavallaro, a fascist trade unionist, was implicated, as were highly placed generals, who said they got approval from NATO and U.S. officials. In later testimony, Cavallaro said the group was set up to restore order after any trouble arose. ``When these troubles do not erupt [by themselves],'' he said, ``they are contrived by the far right.'' Gen. Miceli was arrested, but the courts eventually freed him, declaring that there had been no insurrection.


Excerpted from: GLADIO: THE SECRET U.S. WAR TO SUBVERT ITALIAN DEMOCRACY

by Arthur E. Rowse

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/gladio.html
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:31 pm

jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:12 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:33 pm wrote:...and we find both sides of this conversation pretty fucking boring!


I had hoped I'd been doing pretty well at avoiding AD's invitation to bitter argumentation (which I know you've seen plenty of). Or maybe I have, and that is what is deemed boring.

There's hopefully a meta-subject here, and that is how to broach this subject without falling into the old patterns. Let's face it, the forum's approach of avoidance has not really worked, it's just resulted in multiple threads full of really long C&P's, a lot of these repeated several times and recently cross posted for no apparent reason.
I'm looking at a possible middle ground.


That's a hollow excuse for slippery behavior, which is evident in great abundance from you, very much including this thread.

If you were direct and clear (i.e. honest) regarding fascism and anti-fascism, we wouldn't have this problem. Then again you're well aware of the anti-fascist guidelines on this board.

If you did show more respect for R.I., things would be very different indeed.

Instead, you offer up empty rhetoric and empty excuses.
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Re: Fascists are the Tools of the State

Postby jakell » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:55 pm

We don't really have a problem, especially now I've ascertained where you're coming from and that this doesn't clash markedly with my own interests.

I've seen the very rancourous and destructive exchanges you've had with other forum members and, even though you may wish this with me, it's not going to happen, the potential for that passed a while back. Our disagreements are going to remain low key.
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