Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recount

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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Morty » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:06 pm


Nov 23, 2016 at 2:22 PM
Demographics, Not Hacking, Explain The Election Results

By Carl Bialik and Rob Arthur

Filed under 2016 Election

According to a report Tuesday in New York Magazine, a group of computer scientists and election lawyers have approached the Hillary Clinton campaign with evidence they believe suggests the election might have been hacked to make it appear that Donald Trump won the Electoral College when Clinton really did. The hacking claim appears to be based on concerns about tampering with electronic voting machines. We’ve looked into the claim — or at least, our best guess of what’s being claimed based on what has been reported — and statistically, it doesn’t check out.

There’s no clear evidence that the voting method used in a county — by machine or by paper — had an effect on the vote. Anyone making allegations of a possible massive electoral hack should provide proof, and we can’t find any. But it’s not even clear the group of computer scientists and election lawyers are making these claims. (More on this in a moment.)

The New York article reports that a group that includes voting-rights attorney John Bonifaz and computer scientist J. Alex Halderman presented findings last week about Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania to top Clinton campaign officials to try to persuade them to call for a recount. Exactly what those findings were isn’t clear. The New York article includes just one example, a finding that Clinton did worse in counties in Wisconsin that used electronic voting machines instead of paper ballots.1 It’s not clear what data the group was using to call for a recount in Michigan and Pennsylvania, or if it was looking at data at all: It could have chosen those states because they were the ones besides Wisconsin that Trump won with the smallest margins. Bonifaz, Halderman and the Clinton campaign officials mentioned in the article didn’t respond to requests for comment or more detail about the study.

But in a Medium post on Wednesday, Halderman said the New York article “includes some incorrect numbers” and misrepresented his argument for recounts. He laid out an argument based not on any specific suspicious vote counts but on evidence that voting machines could be hacked, and that using paper ballots as a reference point could help determine if there were hacks. “Examining the physical evidence in these states — even if it finds nothing amiss — will help allay doubt and give voters justified confidence that the results are accurate,” Halderman wrote.

Without a recount, all we can do for now is look for any meaningful difference in the three states named in the New York article between votes in counties that used paper ballots and votes in ones that used machines. That quickly crossed Michigan off the list: The entire state uses paper ballots, which are read by optical scanners.2 So we couldn’t compare results by type of voting in that state. Instead, we checked the six other states with a margin between Clinton and Trump of less than 10 percentage points that use a mix of paper and machine voting: Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas and Virginia.

For each county in those states, we looked at Clinton’s vote share and whether it was associated with the type of voting system the county used, based on voting-system data compiled by a nonprofit electoral-reform group called Verified Voting and 2016 vote data from Dave Leip’s U.S. Election Atlas and ABC News.3 It doesn’t make much sense, though, to just look at raw vote counts and how they differed, because we know there are many factors that affect how a county voted, both in those states and everywhere else around the country. So we separated out two of the main factors that we know drove differences in voting results: the share of each county’s population age 25 and older with a college degree, and the share of the county that is non-white.4

We found no apparent correlation5 between voting method and outcome in six of the eight states, and a thin possible link between voting method and results in Wisconsin and Texas. However, the two states showed opposite results: The use of any machine voting in a county was associated with a 5.6-percentage-point reduction in Democratic two-party vote share in Wisconsin but a 2.7-point increase in Texas, both of which were statistically significant.6 Even if we focus only on Wisconsin, the effect disappears when we weight our results by population. More than 75 percent of Wisconsin’s population lives in the 23 most populous counties, which don’t appear to show any evidence for an effect driven by voting systems.7 To have effectively manipulated the statewide vote total, hackers probably would have needed to target some of these larger counties. When we included all counties but weighted the regression by the number of people living in each county, the statistical significance of the opposite effects in Wisconsin and Texas both evaporated.8

Even if the borderline significant result for Wisconsin didn’t vanish when weighting by population, it would be doubtful, for a few reasons. You’re more likely to find a significant result when you make multiple tests, as we did by looking at eight states with and without weighting by population.9 Also, different places in Wisconsin and Texas use different kinds of voting machines; presumably if someone really did figure out how to hack certain machines, we’d see different results depending on which type of machines were used in a county, but we don’t. And Nate Cohn of The New York Times found that when he added another control variable to race and education — density of the population — the effect of paper ballots vanished.

It’s possible nonetheless that the election was hacked, in the sense that anything is possible. (And the best hackers are experts in erasing their tracks.) Maybe hackers knew which control variables we’d look at and manipulated the vote in a way that it would look like it was caused by race, education and population driving different voting preferences. Maybe hackers didn’t manipulate the share of votes in individual counties, but rather the turnout, increasing the number of votes in counties likely to favor one candidate or another. Maybe some irregularities at the county level in early Wisconsin vote-counting are signs of wider problems. Maybe we’d find something if we dug down to the precinct level, or if we looked at other states with mixed voting systems. But at a time when the number of voters without confidence in the accuracy of the vote count is rising, the burden of proof ought to be on people claiming there was electoral fraud. The paradox is that in our current electoral system, without routine audits, seeking proof requires calling for a recount, which in itself can undermine confidence in the vote.

Carl Bialik is FiveThirtyEight’s lead writer for news. @CarlBialik

Rob Arthur is FiveThirtyEight’s baseball columnist and also writes about crime. @No_Little_Plans
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby 0_0 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:41 pm

Belligerent Savant » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:41 pm wrote:.
OP ED » Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:14 am wrote:Lulz. I still think it's cute the way people go on and on about their preferred poison. Blah blah blah. You're arguing Pepsi versus Coke and thinking your choice changes how quickly the inside of you is rotting away. "But wait you fascist, Pepsi is in a blue can!"


Indeed.
It's become a tired refrain 'round these parts in the past couple weeks, but to repeat: such investment into mainstream narratives is unexpected in this forum. The entire process/system -- not merely the votes or the election -- is RIGGED, whether a recount bears it out or not. BOTH candidates, both parties, are f'ing DEPLORABLE.

It's a LOSE-LOSE for The People, regardless of outcome.

WTF are y'all clamoring for -- A CLINTON in the White House? Bizarre. But it's BETTER THAN TRUMP, amirite?

Mass-scale Stockholm Syndrome on display.

By all means, carry on.


That might be exactly the effect they aimed for. Trump probably doesn't really want the job anyway and Hillary wants it a lot. Will it be a Hillary Christmas after all? Stay tuned...
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Nordic » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:58 pm

8bitagent » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:27 am wrote:Oh my god, my sides. So first the Clinton cult takes every opportunity it can to attack Stein, now the few extreme Clintonistas
are holding out hope Stein can overtun the election? Hey, while we are at it, can we nullify the primaries where it's proven the DNC cheated Bernie Sanders?

And people thought the Trump supporters would be the snivveling crybabies whining about a rigged election and being cheated



:rofl2

Perfect.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Nordic » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:07 pm

It's amazing to me how many self professed "liberals" want the neocons back in power with Hillary.

The neocons. The people behind 9/11. The people who installed Bush into power. The people who stole the election from Kerry in 2004. The people who hijacked our country and killed millions of innocent people and destroyed entire nations. The people who gave us he Patriot Act, attacked their own people with military grade Anthrax after 9/11.

Those monsters we've had in power for sixteen long ugly years.

Those are the people you want to keep in power with the madwoman Hillary as their puppet holding the pen.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MINDS??

You think I should respect your suicidal and brainwashed VIEWS on this?

You people are FUCKING psychotic.

Stockholm Syndrome indeed.

The average CNN watching working person can be forgiven. RI readers and participants cannot be forgiven. No.

I really don't think I can stay here. Too many people are fucking brainwashed and seem to have not even read anything leading back to 9/11.

They were literally born yesterday.

Good riddance.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:11 pm

if i had any money I would put some down that Hillary is currently in lockdown, and we will not be seeing much of her again. the liberal dream of a child-murdering demoness starting WW3 is over, people. the worm has turned.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:24 am

seemslikeadream » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:43 am wrote:$2,638,856.00 RAISED


this isn't about overturning an election

this is about the vote


Elections Commission preps for recount of Wisconsin presidential election

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/ ... 8ab74.html


On that subject, does anyone know when the deadline to file for a recount in North Carolina is? I wish Stein would add them to the list, considering the discrepancy between the exit poll and state vote count was 5.9% which Jonathan Simon called "way outside the margin of error for that poll and therefore very unlikely to occur by chance."

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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby OP ED » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:12 am

I don't care about Hillary over the Hair, I just think any action that helps demonstrate the stage magic nature of the American electoral process is a good thing. It would be cheap and simple, relatively speaking, to make it transparent enough to eliminate most doubts.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:04 am

I can't hate on Jill too much for the recount....unlike Hellary Clinton or Golden Quaff, she put herself on the line at the DAPL protests
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby brainpanhandler » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:47 am

OP ED » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:12 am wrote:I don't care about Hillary over the Hair
I definitely care about that result, though I don't believe these recounts will make one bit of difference, even if they uncover direct, incontrovertible evidence of election fraud and I think that is extremely unlikely.

I just think any action that helps demonstrate the stage magic nature of the American electoral process is a good thing.


Agreed. But I hold out little hope of a recount in WI producing any sort of evidence that will hold anyone's interest that wasn't already paying attention.

Please read the following article about a critical state supreme court election recently to get some idea of how corrupted and riggable WI's election system is:

http://www.truth-out.org/article/item/1 ... -wisconsin

To my knowledge no one was even so much as publicly censured for that shitshow and nothing has changed.

Edit to add:

The counties in WI that use the DRE machines that have no paper trail and suspiciously skew toward conservatives were provided by Command Central:

https://wcmcoop.com/2012/05/22/meet-com ... -machines/

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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 1:49 pm

JackRiddler » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:56 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:30 pm wrote:First at fault are Trump and his supporters.
Second at fault is the media.
Third at fault are non-voters.
Fourth at fault are those who supported neoliberal imperialism in the Democratic primaries.
Fifth at fault are the DNC and Clinton.
Sixth at fault are liberal kapos who ignored / denied / explained away / wished away the rise of the fascist threat and did nothing to stop them or stood in the way of anti-fascists.

Notice who is conspicuously absent.


Si. Maybe I'd flip fourth and fifth, and put third at the end (not voting may be stupid but it's totally understandable that people might feel its pull in the face of this atrocious, undemocratic system and the only two possible winners it offered). So I'd say 1, 2 (corporate media), 5, 4, 6, 3. (Kapo is a counter-productive choice of term, by the way.)

But yeah to the list and double-yeah to your last statement. Democrats are in denial about their whole shit-show galaxy, starting with why the amazingly unpopular unindicted Clinton and Puppydog got the plurality over the mostly hated unindicted Trump-Torquemada ticket in the first place. Certainly not because most people voting for her were choosing the greater good!

ON EDIT: At the zero rank, add the general lack of a common, self-aware democratic culture with strong principles, the Dead Hand of 1787, the corporate state and its money-machine of "elections" and power, and the two-party duopoly that serves up D-THIS, R-THAT or NOTHING ELSE FUCK YOU FUCK THE WORLD as the only choices of outcome.

.


I'd be amenable to those changes. I suppose plenty of non-voters could have gone any which way and sad Democrats need to be reminded of that.

I know kapo represents strong fighting words and probably wouldn't level it directly at someone, but apologies if it's more offensive in any way more than I'm aware. I'm thinking of it more as a gatekeeper for fascists but I might be unaware of other uses / context.

To reply more generally, let's try to predict how on earth any changes to the outcome will affect civil society. I see the future spiraling off in many different timelines, almost none of them good. The path to civil peace requires a lot of hard work.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:19 pm

.

It's interesting how this thread on investigation in a plausible suspicion of an RI staple -- electronic election fraud! -- has engendered such hysterical reactions. I guess some people have their heart set more on the imagined Trump revolution, or perhaps post-Trump awakening, that they adopt the condescension they're always complaining about. You even got the automatic believe-anything crowd posting the authoritarian pooh-pooh of the issue from 538. Hey, if they didn't find a statistical correlation I guess we really should go full black-box on the next round. Just scrap all these annoying paper thingies and ineffective options for audits or oversight. Malice doesn't exist, anyway. Tell you what, let their poll be the election, save a lot of money.

Luther maybe I can bring you around to saying nomenklatura, domestically (at least until now) we've been more in a late Soviet than a Nazi flavor. Ha.

Luther Blissett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:49 pm wrote:To reply more generally, let's try to predict how on earth any changes to the outcome will affect civil society. I see the future spiraling off in many different timelines, almost none of them good. The path to civil peace requires a lot of hard work.


I think anything that prevents the open assault on "civil society" scheduled for January 21 is probably the better outcome. Not that stopping Trump is going to happen.

For the 19th time, I'll say it: Clinton winning offered not the "lesser evil" but the better battlespace. Her admin would have been compromised and disbelieved from the start, and forced to go under if it didn't make concessions in the direction of popular demands like single payer. Now we're going to be fighting a Genghis Khan who's going after the privatization of Medicare up-front. Multiply by a dozen analogous examples. But oh, yeah, he's totally going to make peace in Syria, that's the Pence and Pompeo credo.

In struggles for justice and peace, the groups she won are the first who need to ally with each other for protection. It's the same old coalition politics, it has to come before peddling everything to the supposedly delicate sensibilities of a fictional white male economically displaced voter who had no racist motivations whatsoever, who isn't a dupe when he claims Trump is for real, who only went Trump because SNL or HuffPo was so mean to him.

Most people voted for Clinton not because they were brainwashed, or because of a media assault. They were thinking lesser evil than the pirate capitalist who wasn't robotically lying about being nice, like her, but braying the racism and misogyny and telling you up front that he's going to rip your country a collective new asshole. (Oh thank god, finally, an alternative to the establishment!)

Gee golly, how did they get their impressions of the asshole who (though everyone is pretending he is an outsider) just lived on their TV as a real asshole playing a fictionalized asshole for 15 years straight? Was it a faulty emotional intelligence?

Most people didn't vote for her because they're the "degenerate artist" Brooklyn/Venice "liberals" of Nordic's sick and hateful imaginary, in which of course he, the struggling white man, is the real and only worthy victim. (My fellow Stein voter on the opposite coast, hilarious).

At this point the trash-talk around "liberal" especially has little salience (it's not about the technocrats actually in charge) and morphed back into a propaganda campaign to distance people and split apart the opposition to Trump, alternating between the "violent" protester and the kale-eating hipster. (How interesting that New York is the center of all this again.)

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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:38 pm

Nomenklatura, deal.

If the past couple weeks' of violent celebration by Trump supporters are any indication, what are they going to do if their glorious golden dawning is pulled out from underneath them? Titor coming true? A perverse paramilitary rebellion? Reinvigorated domestic terrorism? Perhaps even something with "official" state schism backing?
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Nordic » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:56 pm

Somebody, behind the scenes, made sure Hillary lost the election.

There's yer civil war, going on "above the line" as we call the VIP's on a movie set.

The voters haven't actually selected the president, or even the nominees, in a very long time.

If it flips to Hillary, that would be a major counterattack victory by the neocons.

We should all be praying that every one of those evil neocon bastards gets tossed into GITMO very soon where they hopefully can't hurt anyone else.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby Nordic » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:01 pm

Actually the scariest thing about all of this is the neocons. What they may be plotting. They aren't going to go silently.

The people behind 9/11 and ISIS aren't exactly believers in smooth transitions of power, playing fair, or any of that.

They are the most dangerous entity on the planet.
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Re: Exclusive Stein just called Green Party filing for recou

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:08 pm

Nordic » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:56 pm wrote:Somebody, behind the scenes, made sure Hillary lost the election.

There's yer civil war, going on "above the line" as we call the VIP's on a movie set.

The voters haven't actually selected the president, or even the nominees, in a very long time.

If it flips to Hillary, that would be a major counterattack victory by the neocons.

We should all be praying that every one of those evil neocon bastards gets tossed into GITMO very soon where they hopefully can't hurt anyone else.


Hey, thanks for showing up sober (not a reference to alcohol). There's some thinking here going on.

Maybe somebody did flip it for Trump. Maybe also it wasn't somebody but a bunch of dedicated somebody-soldiers working the vote suppression and the opportunities for cheating made available through the many e-counting systems in place, often differing by county.

I see nothing but neocons in Trump's corner getting the appointments so far on the matters that matter to them (the foreign policy posts). Especially bloodthirsty ones, like Flynn and Pompeo. So if they're to be seen as a single group with a common mind, they are either happy to still be on the inside, and not working for a reversal of the election, or else they are split into factions. And those would probably be based on lines of which "victor" provides jobs to which of them, which horse they bet on.

Q. Is the one currently setting this potential election reversal into motion, and being interviewed on RT about it, Jill Stein, working for the neocons?

.
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