The Libya thread

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:26 pm

Sweet and Lowdown: A Crude Analysis of the Libyan Liberation

Written by Chris Floyd
Tuesday, 23 August 2011 22:56

Another war for oil? Surely not! But just to be on the safe side, the world's oil barons are already moving in to seal some sweetheart deals on that sweet, sweet crude with the new, NATO-installed masters of Libya.

And guess what? It turns out that companies from the Western countries that eagerly rained tons of death-metal on the Libyan people are being given the inside track to the post-Gadafy gusher. Meanwhile, countries that had urged caution in humanely intervening with thousands upon thousands of bombs, drones and missiles to, er, protect human life now face relegation to the outer darkness.

As the New York Times reports, Libya's old colonial masters, Italy, are leading the way in the new scramble, even ere the Green Pimpernel has been found. They, along with other Western oil behemoths, are being welcomed with open arms by the peace-loving democratic rebels, who, er, murdered their own chief military commander just a few weeks ago. But for intervention skeptics like Russia, China and Brazil, there may be "some political issues" in renewing old deals and inking new ones, say the new regime's oil honchos. NATO si, BRIC no.

But remember. This is not a war for oil. Oil has nothing to do with it. Of course, you can find cranks and crackpots like, say, Patrick Cockburn, who has only been doing frontline reporting in the region for decades, coming out with nonsense like this, in a recent piece about the "murderous rebels in Libya":

"The enthusiasm in some 30 foreign capitals to recognise the mysterious self-appointed group in Benghazi as the leaders of Libya is at this stage probably motivated primarily by expectations of commercial concessions and a carve-up of oilfields."

But what does he know? Especially compared to progressive, peace-loving, war-hating supporters of the, er, war like Professor Juan Cole. As the professor himself tells us, he is someone "who has actually heard briefings in Europe from foreign ministries and officers of NATO members." I'll bet you haven't done that! (Although Patrick Cockburn probably has -- for decades. But never mind.) Anyway, Cole assures us that the very idea of oil playing any part in this noble endeavor is "daft," because Libya was "already integrated with the international oil markets."

Well, loath as one is to quibble with a man who has actually heard briefings from NATO officers and all, even the New York Times notes that:

Colonel Qaddafi proved to be a problematic partner for international oil companies, frequently raising fees and taxes and making other demands. A new government with close ties to NATO may be an easier partner for Western nations to deal with. Some experts say that given a free hand, oil companies could find considerably more oil in Libya than they were able to locate under the restrictions placed by the Qaddafi government.

Less regulation, fewer restrictions, sweeter deals, more oil, higher profits -- no, there's nothing there to interest the oil companies. Or the governments they "influence" so persuasively -- and pervasively. So it must be true, as Cole asserts, that this noble endeavor was no more and no less than a humanitarian intervention designed to safeguard human lives (with those thousands of bombs and missiles), protect the right of free assembly (or at least the right to mill around in one of those wired, barricaded, kettled, corralled "free speech zones" now so prevalent in the freedom-loving, liberating lands of the West), and uphold "a lawful world order."

Cole now looks forward to seeing Gadafy and sons in the dock for war crimes, for, as he rightly notes: "deploying the military against non-combatants was a war crime, and doing so in a widespread and systematic way was a crime against humanity." Unless, of course, you quote "just war" theologians as you, say, conduct a widespread and systematic terror bombing campaign of defenseless villages in an allied nation with drone missiles, as Barack Obama has been doing in Pakistan from the moment he took office. But Cole "agree[s] with President Obama and his citation of Reinhold Niebuhr. You can't protect all victims of mass murder everywhere all the time. But where you can do some good, you should do it."

If only Gadafy had thought to quote a man whose "influence has been acknowledged by such recent leaders of American foreign policy as Jimmy Carter, Madeleine Albright, Hillary Clinton, [and] John McCain"! Perhaps that would have absolved him from the other crimes Cole lays at his door: "bankrolling brutal dictators and helping foment ruinous wars." Certainly none of our Niebuhr-quoting leaders have ever done anything like that!

In any case, the deed is done and now, as the Times headline says, "The Scramble for Access to Libya's Oil Wealth Begins." But the latter is just incidental, of course -- a spandrel, a happy accident, an unintentional by-product of a noble deed done by noble men for noble purposes. Oily business aside, the deed itself is something that should be celebrated by everyone -- including anti-war dissidents like Cole, or even rock-ribbed "anarchists" like Crispin Sartwell (whose call for "exhilaration" at Libya's NATO-bomb liberation receives an answer here from Arthur Silber). Only the dead -- the uncounted, forgotten dead, mangled and buried under tons of liberating metal -- might demur.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:24 pm

Wikileaks: Sen. John McCain Tried to Help Gaddafi Get US Military Hardware

By Michael Allen on Aug 24, 2011

A U.S. diplomatic cable released Wednesday by the website WikiLeaks reportedly shows that Senator John McCain promised to help Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi obtain U.S. military hardware and become one of the United States' partners in the war on terror.

The agreement took place on Aug. 14, 2009 and included Senator Joe Lieberman, Senator Lindsey Graham, Senator Susan Collins and Senate Armed Services Committee staffer Richard Fontaine.

According to the cable, McCain opened the meeting by saying that Libya's relationship with the U.S. was "excellent.” Liebermann added, "We never would have guessed ten years ago that we would be sitting in Tripoli, being welcomed by a son of Muammar al-Qadhafi."

The cable also says, "Lieberman called Libya an important ally in the war on terrorism, noting that common enemies sometimes make better friends. The Senators recognized Libya's cooperation on counterterrorism and conveyed that it was in the interest of both countries to make the relationship stronger."

The deal that was being made included helicopters and non-lethal weaponry meant to ensure the security of Libya. In exchange for this and assisting Libya in rehabilitating its image, Gaddafi promised to send his enriched uranium supplies to Russia for disposal.

But Gaddafi abandoned the agreement last November, leaving a large quantity of uranium in a poorly sealed container on the side of an airport runway for weeks. Apparently, Gaddafi backed out of the deal because of Donald Trump, who "screwed" the Libyan dictator.

As Trump has bragged many times, Gaddafi paid Trump to build a tent on his property in New York before a United Nations summit. Once the media began focusing in on the arrangement, the billionaire sent Gaddafi packing, but kept his money. Gaddafi is quoted in other U.S. diplomatic cables as saying he felt "humiliated" by his treatment, inspiring him to back out of the McCain deal.

At the time of the deal, Sen. McCain wrote on Twitter that he'd shared an "interesting meeting with an interesting man" (Gaddafi). That comment that has haunted McCain since the former dictator began slaughtering his own people.

McCain, later, changed his mind and also come out in favor of arming Libya's rebels, tweeting: "I think we could do the same thing that we did in the Afghan struggle against the Russians. There are ways to get weapons in without direct U.S. supplying."
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby StarmanSkye » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:49 pm

>eyeroll<
WoW

So Trump is a no-class thief-cheat boor,
and McCain is a two-faced double-dealing war-profiteer ChickenHawk low-life;

Against ALL these American 'leaders', chumps, bullys, conmen, hypocrites, liars, traitors, opportunisits, egotistical farts, venal frauds and snake-oil magicians,
Gaddafi comes across as principled and generous, an honorable man of Peace driven to fight for his people and ideals by a monstrous, coordinated conspiracy of treachery against the Common Man.
I daresay I'd be greatly honored to be Gaddafi's guest FAR AWAY moreso than with any but a small handful of current or recent American 'leaders'.


re: "...slaughtered his own people ..." -- has become an obligatory bombast tagline that pretty-much gives-away the source's Pentagon-propaganda-pandering gameplan.

Despite Bush's needless squandering of many more thousands of 'his own people' ie. American troops in totally unjustified criminal wars of geostrategic maneuvering.

'Sociopatholigarchy' indeed (thanks Jeff!) is a better term to identify those whose arrogant conceit makes them immune to the critical condemnations they charge others with.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:12 pm

Robert Baer on Libya and Blowback
Posted on Aug 23, 2011

Veteran CIA officer Robert Baer speaks to radio host Ian Masters about the shifting political sands in the Middle East as the “Arab Spring” claims another dictator.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby eyeno » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:17 pm

One of the first things the rebels did was "start a central bank". Okee doke. That speaks volumes.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby Nordic » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:09 pm

eyeno wrote:One of the first things the rebels did was "start a central bank". Okee doke. That speaks volumes.


It streamlines the looting of the country. Looting by the West has become big business in the region, might as well help them make the process more efficient and get a little piece of the action in the process.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby eyeno » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:28 pm

Nordic wrote:
eyeno wrote:One of the first things the rebels did was "start a central bank". Okee doke. That speaks volumes.


It streamlines the looting of the country. Looting by the West has become big business in the region, might as well help them make the process more efficient and get a little piece of the action in the process.


Precisely. And most likely the end goal from the very start of the campaign. This is all very easy to fathom. Nothing like a whole other country of debt slaves to add to the roster. This is what is happening in the whole middle east. Sadaam dared trade oil in a currency other than the DOLLAR and you see what happened to him. All these people will now be added to the roster of debt slaves. Anybody that is not borrowing money from the BIG central bank of the world will be borrowing money from it shortly. Chavez has balls as big as Neptune but he too will borrow money from the BIG bank or perish. This is about enslaving humanity under one huge BIG bank of debt slaves and the stakes are life and death. None of this is a mystery and terrifying to watch play out. Since the western world is already debt slaves under this system it needs not be conquered because it is already conquered. The only thing left for the western world is more austerity. The entire world will become one huge fuckin slum with one huge scumbag slumlord. This is our fate. Why? Because technology is insuring it every day. Technology will allow nobody to escape. All we can do is watch and try to stay out of the way and survive it.

Some decade, long time from now, there will be a whole world revolt but we won't be alive for it. That revolt will be for our grandchildren to undertake, or our great grandchildren. The price of freedom will be death for most.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:25 am

Michael Allen (quoted by SLAD) wrote:"Lieberman called Libya an important ally in the war on terrorism, noting that common enemies sometimes make better friends. The Senators recognized Libya's cooperation on counterterrorism and conveyed that it was in the interest of both countries to make the relationship stronger."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNfztA1i0ts

Articles on same, here:
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/ ... m-qaddafi/

Senators Sucked Up to Gaddafi, Now Call for His Head
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/bl ... d-20110401

That we do not forget, the prevailing reality until a few months ago, I shall now repeat several of the familiar pictures.

Image

Picked up most of these at http://akirathedon.com/blobblog/berlusc ... t-want-to-“disturb”-gaddafi.

Image
Of all recent Statesmen of the West, this one still physically repulses me the most. It's weird, because the exterior is conventionally good-looking.

Image

These are all individual meetings, not run-ins at bigger convos like the UN or G20.

The following one, with Mubarak, often doesn't display.
Image

Who is this one? Some EU muckymuck.
Image

Honesty compels me to add:

Image[/quote]

The point? These guys who were loving fuck out of Mr. Q until recently didn't shift their positions out of a sudden respect for the autonomous will of the Libyan people, or of any people! What shifted were their perceptions of interest: corporate, national, coalitional, international. Imperialist.

War anarchists are an embarrassing phenomenon -- mostly American.


http://eyeofthestorm.blogs.com/eye_of_t ... human.html

August 21, 2011
stay human

look. you may be unhappy with the u.s. record of international intervention. you ought to be. maybe things will now descend into more disasters in libya: a new civil war, even. but right or left, black or white, straight or gay, capitalist or communist, you've strayed too far from your basic human responses and your basic opposition to oppression - if any - if you do not feel exhilarated as you watch the people of tripoli celebrate the end of their dictatorship. there were nato airstrikes. fundamentally, though, this was something that the people did themselves, as they did in tunis and cairo, as they will do in damascus and sanaa. that's one reason this isn't vietnam or iraq. the u.s. government has a rich record of pretending that people want us there, that we are liberators, etc., while engaging in massive (though usually completely incompetent) disinformation in the service of such claims. now, does anyone believe that the situation in libya is like that? then i want some evidence, and some explanation of what we're actually seeing.

(Includes Washington Post short film: "Celebrations in Libya as rebels advance in Tripoli.")




Arthur Silber's response:


http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/20 ... ments.html

August 22, 2011
If Pictures Were Arguments...
It would appear that people with the capacity to make an actual argument choose instead to rely on pictures. I eagerly await the gallery of fetus love, offered as a detailed proof that women are inferior beings who have no business claiming a right to control their own bodies. Yeehaw!

But okay. Pictures are swell. Here are some more. I guess those Nazis were swell, too. (See what I did there? I mentioned Nazis precisely so you can feel righteous and superior in ignoring the rest of this post. I'm incredibly thoughtful.)

Watch for the festival of meaningless distinctions. "Oh, but we didn't invade Libya! We just bombed strategically so that the Libyans could reclaim their country for themselves!" The common feature -- the feature that matters above all others when evaluating what the Western powers did -- is that the West utilized military aggression in events that were none of their goddamned business. Of course, from the U.S. perspective, and it was the U.S. that drove this episode of aggression, anything that happens anywhere in the world is our business, that is, it is the business of the U.S. ruling class. They don't talk endlessly about American global hegemony to idle away a few centuries.

The Western powers bombed Libya a lot. They killed a whole lot of innocent people; we'll never have any idea how many. Did the Western powers have any right to act in this way, to murder innocent people? Assuredly they did not, absent an utterly unfounded conviction that you have the "right" and power to determine events according to your particular moral preferences -- and, most significantly, to eliminate those human beings who would frustrate your desires. In this context, it is more than slightly outrageous and offensive for Sartwell to engage in a blatant attempt at moral intimidation which announces itself even in the title of his post: "Stay human." From Sartwell's perspective, it is "human" to engage in unjustified campaigns of military aggression and murder. Such campaigns may tragically be all too typical of human behavior, but that is vastly different from claiming they are "human" in the sense Sartwell uses the term here.

Moral intimidation continues in the body of the post:
but right or left, black or white, straight or gay, capitalist or communist, you've strayed too far from your basic human responses and your basic opposition to oppression - if any - if you do not feel exhilarated as you watch the people of tripoli celebrate the end of their dictatorship.

To the degree "the people of Tripoli" may genuinely be somewhat freer from oppression, I'm thrilled for them -- if that is, in fact, what these events mean. But is that what they mean? Beyond the moments captured by these pictures, we have absolutely no idea.

Who are these people "celebrating" in Tripoli? What do they want? What will they do now? Is the future going to be better for them -- or worse? And what about all the other Libyans? What do they want? What are they going to do? And what about the Western powers? It is certain the Western powers will announce the indispensability of their "assistance" in fashioning Libya's future. That does not bode well for the Libyans, if one is genuinely opposed to oppression, if one hopes for a future of peace. See Iraq.

But in a different sense, all of this is beside the point with regard to Sartwell's post. For Sartwell, along with many others, cheered on the West's military aggression in Libya. (And I only write this post because I'm sure we will see more than a few entries similar to Sartwell's from others who also supported this latest campaign of "liberation.") Sartwell is attempting to justify his earlier support for this particular instance of the West's, and more particularly the U.S.'s, endless campaign of aggressive, murderous intervention around the world. In the same way that propagandists for other instances of the U.S.'s acts of brutalization, destruction and death sought to justify their support, Sartwell wants to be able to say: "I was proved fucking right."

No, you were not. And please note carefully: this will still be true even in the (impossible) event that Libya becomes a paradise on Earth. Speaking of Iraq, here is part of an essay I wrote almost five years ago. If you genuinely want to "stay human," consider this, all of which applies to Libya as well (and to Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the rest -- up to 120 countries by year's end, we are told):
Each of us has a family, loved ones, friends and a life that is a web of caring, interdependence, and joy. When even one of us is killed or horribly injured for no justifiable reason, the damage affects countless people in addition to the primary victim. Sometimes, the survivors are irreparably damaged as well. Even the survivors' wounds can last a lifetime.

This is of the greatest significance. There is nothing more important or meaningful in the world. No moral principle legitimizes our invasion and occupation of Iraq, just as it will not justify an attack on Iran [or Libya]. Therefore, when the first person was killed in Iraq as the result of our actions, the immorality was complete. The crime had been committed, and no amends could ever suffice or would even be possible. That many additional tens or hundreds of thousands of people have subsequently been killed or injured does not add to the original immorality with regard to first principles. It increases its scope, which is an additional and terrible horror -- but the principle is not altered in the smallest degree.

I'm most awfully sorry. I don't have a picture to go along with that.

Never mind.

posted by Arthur Silber at 7:43 AM



And again: We here aren't wrong about the motives and ends of the imperialists who conducted this war, but I very much want us to be wrong about what is likely to happen next! I very much hope Libyans come together, as an independent and free people at peace, and build a new and better nation for themselves.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby StarmanSkye » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:41 am

Libya like McDonalds for NATO: Fast War as Fast Food

-- VERY insightful, a frank and thoughtful reflection by Gadaffi's son replying to RT questions, from July 1. Displays a very human, unassuming sense of self, showing humility and compassion, capable of self-criticism in acknowledging his mistakes including being too naive, trusting and liberal, and having an unflinching grasp of the implications extending from the Global elite's scheming treachery. This feels more-than-a-little like 'the last words of' -- kind of a testimonial by a self-aware man who has been sorely-tested but remained true to his faith and convictions, has made his peace with God/Allah and resigns his fate, to live or die, so be it.

Not a little moving. I have the utmost contempt for those nation's leaders (US, Italy, France, England) who want this man and his father dead, who think that the conquest of Libya will then be over and the divvying-of-spoils will be fairly easy and uncomplicated. Instead, I think NATO may be surprised to find their war has just BEGUN.


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Re: The Libya thread

Postby crikkett » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:57 am

StarmanSkye wrote:re: "...slaughtered his own people ..." -- has become an obligatory bombast tagline that pretty-much gives-away the source's Pentagon-propaganda-pandering gameplan.

Despite Bush's needless squandering of many more thousands of 'his own people' ie. American troops in totally unjustified criminal wars of geostrategic maneuvering.

Do you forget Katrina?
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:11 am

what took so long?

Nuclear experts warn of Libya "dirty bomb" material
Tue, Aug 23 2011


By Fredrik Dahl

VIENNA | Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:37pm EDT

(Reuters) - A research center near Tripoli has stocks of nuclear material that could be used to make a "dirty bomb," a former senior U.N. inspector said on Wednesday, warning of possible looting during turmoil in Libya.

Seeking to mend ties with the West, Libya's Muammar Gaddafi agreed in 2003 to abandon efforts to acquire nuclear, chemical and biological weapons -- a move that brought him in from the cold and helped end decades of Libyan isolation.

A six-month popular insurgency has now forced Gaddafi to abandon his stronghold in the Libyan capital but continued gunfire suggests the rebels have not completely triumphed yet.

Olli Heinonen, head of U.N. nuclear safeguards inspections worldwide until last year, pointed to substantial looting that took place at Iraq's Tuwaitha atomic research facility near Baghdad after Saddam Hussein was toppled in 2003.

In Iraq, "most likely due to pure luck, the story did not end in a radiological disaster," Heinonen said.

In Libya, "nuclear security concerns still linger," the former deputy director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said in an online commentary.

Libya's uranium enrichment program was dismantled after Gaddafi renounced weapons of mass destruction eight years ago. Sensitive material and documentation including nuclear weapons design information were confiscated.

But the country's Tajoura research center continues to stock large quantities of radioisotopes, radioactive waste and low-enriched uranium fuel after three decades of nuclear research and radioisotope production, Heinonen said.

Refined uranium can have civilian as well as military purposes, if enriched much further.

"DANGEROUS" MATERIAL

"While we can be thankful that the highly enriched uranium stocks are no longer in Libya, the remaining material in Tajoura could, if it ended up in the wrong hands, be used as ingredients for dirty bombs," Heinonen, now at Harvard University, said.

"The situation at Tajoura today is unclear. We know that during times of regime collapse, lawlessness and looting reign."

A so-called dirty bomb can combine conventional explosives such as dynamite with radioactive material.

Experts describe the threat of a crude fissile nuclear bomb, which is technically difficult to manufacture and requires hard-to-obtain bomb-grade uranium or plutonium, as a "low probability, high consequence act" -- unlikely but with the potential to cause large-scale harm to life and property.

But a "dirty bomb," where conventional explosives are used to disperse radiation from a radioactive source, is a "high probability, low consequence act" with more potential to terrorize than cause large loss of life.

"There are a number of nuclear and radiological materials at Tajoura that could be used by terrorists to create a dirty bomb," said Mark Fitzpatrick, a director at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies think-tank.

There was no immediate comment from the IAEA on the Tajoura facility. A document posted on the IAEA's website said it was a 10 megawatt reactor located 34 km (20 miles) east of the Libyan capital.

The Vienna-based U.N. agency has been involved in technical aid projects in Libya, including at Tajoura.

Heinonen said Libya's rebel Transitional National Council would need to be aware of the material at Tajoura. Once a transition takes place it should "take the necessary steps to secure these potentially dangerous radioactive sources."

Fitzpatrick said the looting that occurred at Iraq's Tuwaitha center "should stand as a lesson for the need for nuclear security precautions in the situation today in Libya."
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby TheDuke » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:46 am

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby StarmanSkye » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:04 am

^^^^

Good follow-up providing one can endure the RT interviewer's pose of obsequesious patronizing:

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Re: The Libya thread

Postby tazmic » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:08 am

"It ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living fire, in measures being kindled and in measures going out." - Heraclitus

"There aren't enough small numbers to meet the many demands made of them." - Strong Law of Small Numbers
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Re: The Libya thread

Postby 82_28 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:02 am

BTW, "the manhunt" is on as is being reported by television news this morning. The term "manhunt" is a term reserved for the common criminal, obviously. They certainly pulled the old plug on Qaddafi, didn't they given those above photos?
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