'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby 82_28 » Sat May 29, 2010 7:04 pm

DoYouEverWonder wrote:
82_28 wrote:I don't think there is any containing it. That's what the parish people were saying. It should have been boomed up immediately.

Read this sad state of affairs:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/5/11 ... ing-School

There certainly is a way to contain it. But that means switching gears, getting BP out of the way and bringing in tankers to suck this shit up. The problem is they're going to have an endless supply of fuel that's they're going to lose money on because they have to get the water out first.

They did it in Saudi Arabia. They can't do it here? Bull.


But what about these mysterious plumes? I have no fucking idea. But what about the various plumes I am reading about? How do you boom up shit that is hundreds of feet under the water and for the most part unknowable?
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby DoYouEverWonder » Sat May 29, 2010 7:37 pm

82_28 wrote:
DoYouEverWonder wrote:
82_28 wrote:I don't think there is any containing it. That's what the parish people were saying. It should have been boomed up immediately.

Read this sad state of affairs:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/5/11 ... ing-School

There certainly is a way to contain it. But that means switching gears, getting BP out of the way and bringing in tankers to suck this shit up. The problem is they're going to have an endless supply of fuel that's they're going to lose money on because they have to get the water out first.

They did it in Saudi Arabia. They can't do it here? Bull.


But what about these mysterious plumes? I have no fucking idea. But what about the various plumes I am reading about? How do you boom up shit that is hundreds of feet under the water and for the most part unknowable?


Stick a hose in it and suck it up. This isn't rocket science.

It's not going to be perfect, but at least you could get at least half of this crap out of the system if not more if they really tried.

They need to stop using disbursent on this stuff so that it sticks together. Then it will be easier to suck it up without taking up as much water.

The key is to sucking the stuff coming out of the wellhead. If they focus on that, there will be a lot less to deal with in the rest of the system.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Hugo Farnsworth » Sat May 29, 2010 10:58 pm

AFAIK, BP is drilling two relief wells. One of them was spudded on 5/18. If you google for "Macondo relief well", there are over 6000 topics.

The tragedy of all this is that the tech needed to stem the flow on the ocean floor is so new and untested, and unavailable. As I had written earlier, Shell is probably the only company with the expertise to actually deal with this in an effective manner. But the time to fab and deploy this stuff would be months away. The relief wells will probably do the trick.

I really thought BP would have had enough balls to cut the riser and deploy tankers and barges to suck this stuff out as fast as it was being produced. I do not know if it is a lack of expertise, logistics (for example, can an oil company commandeer tankers committed elsewhere to long term contracts?), or an intransigent cheapness about them. Maybe a combination of all three.

This will probably wipe BP out. Talking through my hat here, but I think that their insurance premiums for drilling operations will suddenly become the price of a small solar system. Even if they were to self-insure (not even certain if that is possible), the profitability of the company would be zilch and BP stock would nosedive.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby 2012 Countdown » Sat May 29, 2010 11:27 pm

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Where
Jackson Square
Jackson Square
New Orleans, LA 70130

RALLY & Protest to Save the Gulf:
Sunday May 30 at 1pm in Jackson Square, New Orleans

SPEAKERS & PROGRAM
The response to our efforts to organize this rally has been humbling; people from all over the Gulf Coast have pitched in to make this event happen. The following are our confirmed speakers for Sunday:

George Barisich, President of the United Commercial Fishermens Association
Evan Wolf, Louisiana National Guardsman involved in oil cleanup
Paul Orr, Lower Mississippi Riverkeeper
Cliff Johnson, Co-founder of the Southeast Louisiana Shrimp Alliance
Professor John P. Clark, Loyola Environmental Studies Program
and
Dean Blanchard of Dean Blanchard Seafood, the largest seafood provider in Louisiana

…plus words from Hazardous Waste Operations and Emergency Response trainer Roger Ivens, Helen Glass of Oily Hair Project & Matter of Trust, ReX Dingler of NoLA Rising, commentator/activist Ian Hoch, & more.

========
We are gathering Sunday, May 30 at 1 pm at the AMPHITHEATER aka “Washington Artillery Park”– the performance space that’s a big curved set of steps across Decatur St. from Jackson Square, next to Cafe Du Monde– to demand immediate, aggressive intervention by the government to STOP THE BP OIL FLOOD. Not soon, not later, not eventually, IMMEDIATELY! The government MUST TAKE ACTION!
People are angry, and have every reason to be, but this is a peaceful protest. If you feel you cannot abide by that for whatever reason, please stay away.
This event is being put together by a handful pissed-off New Orleanians determined to force full government and corporate accountability to the people of the Gulf Coast. We are not a political action committee or affiliated with any political party, business interest or candidates although we absolutely WELCOME and INVITE all groups, organizations and individuals to attend.

Chief Organizer Henry Thomas
PLEASE spread the word… come and bring as many as you can!
UPDATE: Due to overwhelming demand, we present for all interested parties the rally’s chief organizer, New Orleans’ own Mr. Henry Thomas. When you see this shining face on Sunday, you will know you are in the right place.
We will have legal observers on-hand to deal with any police problems (although we don’t expect any).
There will also be speakers, music and media present.

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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby 82_28 » Sun May 30, 2010 12:06 am

I think that drilling a hole and sucking up oil and such requires quite a bit of engineering expertise. But I think this shit now is beyond "rocket science". I don't think anybody knows what the composition of that sediment bed is. And as far as stopping it, it seems as though everything can and will get worse the more they tinker with it. Just my opinion from what I have gathered at the oil drum and other places.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby barracuda » Sun May 30, 2010 12:53 am

I don't know if this has been mentioned here, but I just saw this tidbit in the LA Times regarding the "relief well" that's gonna solve this whole problem sometime in fucking August, about three months from now...

    One of two such wells being slant-drilled is at 12,900 feet below the ocean surface, but it must reach 18,000 feet. "The farther we go, the slower it gets," he said, adding, "we are ahead of our plan right now."

Isn't that the most encouraging thing you've ever heard? They can't effectively operate a robot sub at 5000 feet, but the 13,000 foot below sea level well is planned to work out okay and fix things. And they're ahead of schedule!
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sun May 30, 2010 2:38 am

How is it that the US Navy, with capability to tap transoceanic cables and recover lost Soviet nuclear submarines, has not developed the capability to protect the US coasts and economy from a damned oil rig blowout?

The Pentagon spends trillions to prepare for worst-case scenarios but not this?
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Nordic » Sun May 30, 2010 3:09 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:How is it that the US Navy, with capability to tap transoceanic cables and recover lost Soviet nuclear submarines, has not developed the capability to protect the US coasts and economy from a damned oil rig blowout?

The Pentagon spends trillions to prepare for worst-case scenarios but not this?



Hugh, that's what's been bugging the hell out of me for weeks now. Isn't it the job of the Pentagon to actually be able to protect, oh you know, "the Homeland?" They come up with that slogan, but they can't even protect it one damn little bit. We just get to sit back and watch it get destroyed, day by day, while the Pentagon, with all its glorious money and equipment, isn't even on the scene.

It's infuriating.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sun May 30, 2010 3:51 am

Energy expert: Nuking oil leak ‘only thing we can do’
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0529/energy ... -oil-leak/


BP 'totally in charge of the news' about oil leak, energy expert says

As the latest effort to plug the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico meets with failure, the idea of nuking the immediate area to seal the oil underground is gaining steam among some energy experts and researchers.

One prominent energy expert known for predicting the oil price spike of 2008 says sending a small nuclear bomb down the leaking well is "probably the only thing we can do" to stop the leak.

Matt Simmons, founder of energy investment bank Simmons & Company, also says that there is evidence of a second oil leak about five to seven miles from the initial leak that BP has focused on fixing. That second leak, he says, is so large that the initial one is "minor" in comparison.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun May 30, 2010 7:09 am

One prominent energy expert known for predicting the oil price spike of 2008 says sending a small nuclear bomb down the leaking well is "probably the only thing we can do" to stop the leak


Well, we tried firing loadsa mud at it, and that didn't work. So then we thought about blasting loadsa golf balls and old tyres at it, but the boys in the backroom said, 'nah, that probably won't work'. So now we're just gonna go the whole hog and fucking nuke the fucker. That'll work.

Roll up your sleeves, guys. Once we've beaten this little baby we're gonna solve global warming by stuffing the stratosphere with tinfoil.

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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby 82_28 » Sun May 30, 2010 7:10 am

It's bad. (As if we didn't know)



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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby MacCruiskeen » Sun May 30, 2010 7:29 am

What a piece of work.

I have of late,—but wherefore I know not,—lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o’erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me but a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form, in moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?

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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby 82_28 » Sun May 30, 2010 7:56 am

And the political Hee-Haw show begins at long last. Here's the latest from the distinguished Charles Krauthammer:

Add environmentalists to the list of those responsible for Gulf oil disaster
WASHINGTON — Here's my question: Why are we drilling in 5,000 feet of water in the first place?

Many reasons, but this one goes unmentioned: Environmental chic has driven us out there. As production from the shallower Gulf of Mexico wells declines, we go deep (1,000 feet and more) and ultra deep (5,000 feet and more), in part because environmentalists have succeeded in rendering the Pacific and nearly all the Atlantic coast off-limits to oil production. (President Obama's tentative, selective opening of some Atlantic and offshore Alaska sites is now dead.) And of course, in the safest of all places, on land, we've had a 30-year ban on drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

So we go deep, ultra deep — to such a technological frontier that no precedent exists for the April 20 blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.

There will always be catastrophic oil spills. You make them as rare as humanly possible, but where would you rather have one: in the Gulf of Mexico, upon which thousands depend for their livelihood, or in the Arctic, where there are practically no people? All spills seriously damage wildlife. That's a given. But why have we pushed the drilling from the barren to the populated, from the remote wilderness to a center of fishing, shipping, tourism and recreation?

Not that the environmentalists are the only ones to blame. Not by far. But it is odd that they've escaped any mention at all.

The other culprits are pretty obvious. It starts with BP, which seems not only to have had an amazing string of perfect-storm engineering lapses but no contingencies to deal with a catastrophic system failure.

However, the railing against BP for its performance since the accident is harder to understand. I attribute no virtue to BP, just self-interest. What possible interest can it have to do anything but cap the well as quickly as possible? Every day that oil is spilled means millions more in losses, cleanup and restitution.

Federal officials who rage against BP would like to deflect attention from their own role in this disaster. Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, whose department's laxity in environmental permitting and safety oversight renders it among the many bearing responsibility, expresses outrage at BP's inability to stop the leak, and even threatens to "push them out of the way."

"To replace them with what?" asked the estimable, admirably candid Coast Guard Adm. Thad Allen, the national incident commander. No one has the assets and expertise of BP. The federal government can fight wars, conduct a census and hand out billions in earmarks, but it has not a clue how to cap a one-mile-deep, out-of-control oil well.

Obama didn't help much with his finger-pointing Rose Garden speech in which he denounced finger-pointing, then proceeded to blame everyone but himself. Even the grace note of admitting some federal responsibility turned sour when he reflexively added that these problems have been going on "for a decade or more" — translation: Bush did it — while, in contrast, his own interior secretary had worked diligently to solve the problem "from the day he took office."

Really? Why hadn't we heard a thing about this? What about the September 2009 letter from Obama's National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration accusing Interior's Minerals Management Service of understating the "risk and impacts" of a major oil spill? When you get a blowout 15 months into your administration, and your own Interior Department had given BP a "categorical" environmental exemption in April 2009, the buck stops.

In the end, speeches will make no difference. If BP can cap the well in time to prevent an absolute calamity in the Gulf, the president will escape politically. If it doesn't — if the gusher isn't stopped before the relief wells are completed in August — it will become Obama's Katrina.

That will be unfair, because Obama is no more responsible for the damage caused by this than Bush was for the damage caused by Katrina. But that's the nature of American politics and its presidential cult of personality: We expect our presidents to play Superman. Helplessness, however undeniable, is no defense.

Moreover, Obama has never been overly modest about his own powers. Two years ago next week, he declared that history will mark his ascent to the presidency as the moment when "our planet began to heal" and "the rise of the oceans began to slow."

Well, when you anoint yourself King Canute, you mustn't be surprised when your subjects expect you to command the tides.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/o ... mer29.html

Krauthammer is such a fucking POS. So many vector changing phrases in there, don't even know where to begin. I mean, really?!?!? Have any of us really, actually, really, stopped beating our wives yet? No, we still beat them. They are beginning to like it, from what my wife's friend told me.

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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Sounder » Sun May 30, 2010 8:15 am

Mac wrote...
Roll up your sleeves, guys. Once we've beaten this little baby we're gonna solve global warming by stuffing the stratosphere with tinfoil.


No prob Mac, didn't you hear? The polluter permission slips are to be made out of tin. If the epic efforts do not slow global warming then the billions of certificates are to be polished and laid out in the desert to simply send that damned light back to the sun. Problem solved.
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Re: 'Not for public': the oil spill may be getting much worse

Postby Peachtree Pam » Sun May 30, 2010 8:16 am

From Detroit Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... ullarticle


Posted: May 30, 2010
BP's credibility faded as oil spill grew

BY TAMARA LUSH, HOLBROOK MOHR and JUSTIN PRITCHARD
ASSOCIATED PRESS




At nearly every step since the Deepwater Horizon exploded more than a month ago, causing the worst oil spill in U.S. history, rig operator BP has downplayed the severity of the catastrophe in the Gulf of Mexico.

The American Red Cross

On almost every issue -- the amount of oil, the environmental impact, how to stop the leak -- BP's statements have proved wrong. All the while, BP has been slow to acknowledge the leak was likely much worse than the public had been told.

BP's behavior has led to accusations that it has tried to keep the leak estimate low because the size of eventual fines is tied to the size of the leak.

Since the April 20 explosion, one of the most obvious questions has been: How much oil is leaking? Official estimates have grown steadily -- first the word was none, then it was 42,000 gallons daily, then 210,000 gallons.

Now scientists say the leak may be up to 798,000 gallons a day, making the spill worse than the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska.

"They keep making one mistake after another. That gives the impression that they're hiding things," said U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla. "These guys either do not have any sense of accountability to the public or they are neanderthals when it comes to public relations."

Nelson said he believes BP has delayed release of everything from the actual flow rate to underwater videos because federal law allows the government to seek penalties of $1,000 to $4,300 per barrel of oil spilled in U.S. waters.

Officials conceded Thursday that the leak was much larger than the 210,000-gallon-a-day figure floated as the best estimate for four weeks. On Friday, BP spokesman David Nicholas acknowledged that high estimates by BP, the Coast Guard and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration had reached 588,000 gallons per day in late April.

Asked why BP had downplayed or been wrong on so many issues, Nicholas said: "This event is unprecedented; no company, no one, has ever had to attempt to deal with a situation such as this at depths such as this before. BP, the Unified Command, the federal authorities and the hundreds of companies and thousands of individuals engaged on this effort are doing everything we can to bring it under control."

Nicholas said daily estimates from April 27-30 were based on two scientific standards. The low end was always around 42,000 gallons per day, the best guess was 210,000-252,000 gallons per day, and the high end varied from 504,000-588,000 gallons per day, he said.

Scientists now say the leak is spewing between 500,000 and a million gallons a day -- 12 to 24 times greater than first stated, making the Deepwater Horizon spill the worst in U.S. history.

Even at the low end of estimates, nearly 18 million gallons have spilled so far. At the high end, the well could have gushed as many as 40 million gallons.

Experts say there's no easy way to measure a leak 5,000 feet deep. Some estimates were based on satellite images or flyovers. The federal government has worked closely with BP, and President Barack Obama has acknowledged shortcomings, but BP controls much of the technology, such as the underwater robots that capture video.

Obama noted that BP didn't make the video public. BP's Nicholas said the government "has had access to the video since the incident started."

The shift in spill estimates has environmentalists like Lorraine Margeson of St. Petersburg, Fla., questioning whether the numbers of dead animals and birds are accurate.

"From the get-go, every aspect of the situation has been downplayed," she said.
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