Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

[wintler2]

Another data point for any thinking that corn-ethanol is a solution. It might make one silver bb pellet, growing to provide possibly 10% of US demand, but only at tremendous cost to consumers further down the food chain. Fuel from food is a new low in grotesque greed, its worth observing which 'enviro' groups are pushing it, not necesarily cos they're in conspiracy, just cos they're dumb enough enough to be dangerous.

Mexico battles soaring tortilla prices
January 12, 2007 - 2:39PM
Mexico's president has promised to tackle the soaring price of tortillas, a corn-based foodstuff that is a dietary staple for millions of the country's poor.

Angry housewives shouted at President Felipe Calderon at public appearances this week, pleading for him to bring down tortilla prices that have shot up as much as 400 per cent in recent months.

"We will take all the measures within reach of the federal government to avoid escalating prices," Calderon said. But he added the government did not fix tortilla prices.

Millions of Mexicans eat a daily dose of tacos, wrapping tortillas around a spectrum of foods from beans and chicken to cow eyeballs.

For many poor families, tortillas are the main source of calories. The minimum wage in Mexico is about $US4.50 ($A5.80) a day.

Tortilla prices have climbed steeply across Mexico in recent weeks, reaching 30 pesos ($US2.72 ($A3.50) a kilogram in Durango state, according to La Jornada newspaper, up 400 per cent from 6 pesos ($A0.69 cents) in November.

"The tortilla has never cost so much in the country's history," said leftist leader Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who narrowly lost last July's presidential election to Calderon.

Mexico, considered by many archaeologists as the birthplace of corn, now imports much of the grain from the United States, where prices rocketed 80 per cent to their highest levels in a decade last year because of demand for corn-based ethanol fuel. ..

[wintler2]

Life is never what you planned. I started this thread hoping to unearth the mysterious information that was leading several posters to repeatedly state that Peak Oil was a hoax, a plot, a scam, an illuminati fabrication intended to justify higher oil prices, NWO, or whatever.

I thought that information could be tested, raked over, cross examined and discussed, so we could all make up our own minds. I was quite prepared to discover it was a scam, i just wanted to see some evidence. Any evidence.

Instead, there were some sincere inquiries, a few points made, some support for oil-will-peak-and-soon (majority of posters actually), and repeated and unsupported "its a scam" chants from Osculum Infame, TVC15 & Stickdog99. SD alone attempted to make some sort of case out of Iraqs 4mbd ceiling (2% of global consmptn), but never actually said how this proved or disproved the PO hypothesis.

slimmouse meanwhile was slipping the 'PO-is-a-scam' claim onto the 'Exxon funding fake science' thread (and prob elsewhere), without ever showing up here to defend their credibility. I wish GWB were as wise about defending the indefensible! But seriously, how often can a poster claim X without backing it up? Can I repeatedly state that slimmouse is tobacco & oil corp defender Fred Hutter without proof? So long as i put 'conspiracy' in there somewhere, it seems yes i can.

So here i am, wanting to wind up this thread, a little older and wiser. I like to think its a cautionary tale about the total nonsense pumped onto these boards by certain posters, but have to admit its also been a depressing endevour on my part.
That such shallow lies can be accepted and repeated without even the briefest consideration of evidence is depressing. On other topics there is evidence and debate, but somehow on the biggest biophysical issues of the day (energy/resource depletion & climate change) so many peoples brains go out the window and the reactionary conspiracists win out.


I'm thus considering a new thread on the 'cui bono' of reactionary conspiracism, arguing that TPTB are the only ones who benefit from the paranoid ravings of the 'everything is a conspiracy' parrots. There is no doubt that there are conspiracies, and RI works to unearth several of the bigger ones. But constantly insisting, without evidence, that the perpetrators are all-knowing and all-powerful can only be a disempowering idea which aids the perpetrators, by herding us towards fear and resignation. Theres plenty of that in the MSM, why accept such lies here?

[dragon]

I came across this a couple of days ago. Y'all read it and decide for yourselves if it is enough to disprove the Peak Oil theory. Whatever you think about this article, it is wise to bear in mind that the ones who are telling you that oil is going to "peak" are the same ones that told us that there was an oil shortage back in the 70s. And that, I read somewhere a good while ago, was not the first oil shortage scam.

Whether or not oil is a biotic or abiotic product, we are also told that there is enough oil in Colorado to last us a very, very long time. The actual figures I do not remember right now. As if that was not enough, there is reportedly more oil in one of those Canadian provinces, British Columbia, maybe, than there is in all of the middle east. The world is floating on a sea of oil.

Before they get you to believe that we are running out, just remember that they haven't used all the oil they stole out of Mogidishu years ago, or all the oil in the Falklands they stole from Argentina even further back in history. Anything those people say is suspect.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-f ... E_ID=47738

Anyway, take it for what it's worth. I'm not going to get into a debate about it. I'm just passing along information that may add to the group's knowledge base.


Dragon

[wintler2]

Dragon, dragon, dragon. I started taking your text apart line by line, until i got to

The actual figures I do not remember right now. As if that was not enough, there is reportedly more oil in one of those Canadian provinces, British Columbia, maybe, than there is in all of the middle east.

and i realised you were either pulling my leg or wasting my time. This thread is about evidence, something you and Jerome Corsi share a lack of.
Where is this fabled abiotic oil?
Where is the oil in BC Canada?
Where is the oil in Colorado? If you're meaning oil shale you should admit its keragen not oil (as much oil as a field of wheat is bread).
Why is your oil coming all the way from Saudi Arabia if "the world is floating on a sea of oil"?
Who is this 'they' you repeatedly ascribe incredible powers to?
How can you honestly present opinions on things you obviously haven't the first clue about?

It is a real strain to remain civil to a fool like you, particularly when you run away without defending your nonsense

I'm not going to get into a debate about it.

(see also the 'Exxon funding fake science' thread).
My guess is experience has taught you not to look back.

[erosoplier]

Canada is busy gearing up to use its natural gas resource to extract all of the glocky oil that's stuck in their ground. I forget the energy consumed per barrel produced ratio, but compared to ME oil it's like walking 50 metres (or yards if you're so inclined) to a well to get a bucket of water instead of turning on a tap in your house. On top of that, natural gas is used for electricity generation in America, big time, so this method of producing oil is only going to bring forward the day when north Americans have to find some other way to get by for electricity. It doesn't look like it will be pretty, whatever happens, because nothing is on the horizon to replace oil and natural gas in North America.

[Trifecta]

Wintler2 you seem genuine in you search for truth on this, not just playing devils advocate, so perhaps you should google the following peoples research an ideas into this. It seems like a research area you are generally interested in and I don't have the time unfortunately.

Alexander von Humboldt

Louis Joseph Gay-Lussac

Marcellin Berthelot

Sir Robert Robinson [a Nobel Prize-winning chemist and president of Britain's Royal Society

Barbara Sherwood Lollar [Stable Isotope Laboratory at the University of Toronto ]

Mendeleyev [the Russian chemist who developed the periodic table]

Thomas Gold [Mathematician]

Buried deep in the Earth, says Gold, lies a second realm, a bacterial biosphere greater in mass than all the creatures living on the surface.

Oh, and remember this: Once the atmosphere has a lot of oxygen, then any hydrocarbon gases that come up are quickly turned into CO2

Barry Katz, a ChevronTexaco Fellow in Houston

Katz said Western science recognizes that abiogenic hydrocarbons can result from natural processes, including the possibility of hydrocarbons originating at great depth.

"I don't think anybody's arguing that gas couldn't be generated from the mantle," he said.

He has yet to see evidence of commercial quantities.

And those damn ukranians
Nikolai A. Kudryavtsev
P. N. Kropotkin
K. A. Shakhvarstova
G. N. Dolenko
V. F. Linetskii
V. B. Porfir’yev
K. A. Anikiev


or perhaps
Robert Mahfoud
James Beck
Jean Whelan

Who all purport to seeing oil refilling themselves (but don't buy the abiogenic theory)

But, none of this negates the fact, that the energy markets are manipulated to get the best buck/fools tax out of us ... that to me seems pretty obvious..its just more manipulation and control.

And by the way i give "THEM" no power over anyones personal soverignty

[wintler2]

Wintler2 you seem genuine in you search for truth on this, not just playing devils advocate, so perhaps you should google the following peoples research an ideas into this. It seems like a research area you are generally interested in and I don't have the time unfortunately.

NO, OI, you should read the title of the thread and my first post again, and again and again, until you see the words Hoax, Prove and Evidence. You have insisted on multiple threads that it is a scam
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hlight=oil
Who gets nuked to pacify the world?
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hlight=oil
Guardian UK: Bush to reverse position on climate change
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... 49&start=0
Engineered Droughts? Is a Pattern Emerging?
(3 of many, see http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... t=peak+oil for me, Dragon & OI going similar rounds a year ago. Check out who backs their assertions, then as now.)

This thread asks you to prove what you say, or at least make a case, not tell me to wander down the pages of every kook or victim of misrepresentation you can google up.

I'll expand on (pg1)

The body of evidence supporting peak oil is actually pretty huge, so i'd appreciate POCs clearly stating on what grounds they doubt it.

by saying if you think oil or gas is being produced from very deep (how deep?) in the earth and has accumulated in significant volumes and knowledge of this is being withheld globally then say it, and at least attempt to explain some part of the how, and provide something more than a list of research topics to back yourself up. Otherwise I can only regard you, still, as a time waster.

[wintler2]

Canada is busy gearing up to use its natural gas resource to extract all of the glocky oil that's stuck in their ground. I forget the energy consumed per barrel produced ratio, but compared to ME oil it's like walking 50 metres (or yards if you're so inclined) to a well to get a bucket of water instead of turning on a tap in your house.

Nice anology erosoplier, qualitatively accurate imagery like that seems to communicate the issues better than any set of numbers (plenty of which vis tar sands can be found in http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 290800.htm
or
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=30703.

On top of that, natural gas is used for electricity generation in America, big time, so this method of producing oil is only going to bring forward the day when north Americans have to find some other way to get by for electricity. It doesn't look like it will be pretty, whatever happens, because nothing is on the horizon to replace oil and natural gas in North America.

Can Canada kick the US off its teat? Weaning is never easy, much better we all do it together and with eyes wide open, than eyes screwed shut and bawling. Hopefully v.big efficiency, conservation and restraint savings will make time for retooling for biogas, solar passive, combined heat and power, geothermal and biomass fuels.

[Trifecta]

In 1970 the Russians started drilling Kola SG-3, an exploration well which finally reached a staggering world record depth of 40,230 feet. Since then, Russian oil majors including Yukos have quietly drilled more than 310 successful super-deep oil wells, and put them into production. Last Year Russia overtook Saudi Arabia as the world's biggest single oil producer, and is now set to completely dominate global oil production and sales for the next century.



http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html



See Wintler additional investment and development in the technology and skills of deep drilling, of deep seismic measurement and interpretation, of the reservoir properties of crystalline rock, and of the associated completion and production practices which should be applied in such non-traditional reservoirs, is out of my personal budget.

however, i have an i nner believe from what I read read, who i have read and the people I have met over the years that the whole peak oil thing is a massive woolen cloak over the eyes of the masses...can I prove it...nope.

But follow the money, always follow the money.

Btw, I will not waste your time on this anymore

[wintler2]

OI, if Russia has discovered the secret of deep oil then why have its exports at best only risen modestly since 2004? (Depending on who you listen to)
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/USSR90.gif

or

..Russian oil production has clearly flattened out recently. From 1990 to 2005, the Russians increased their crude oil production by an average of roughly 4 percent annually, adding up to a little under 3 million barrels of production growth from 1994 to 2004. This helped offset the effects of rising demand from Asia (and, to some extent, the US) as well as declining excess capacity to produce oil in the Middle East.

But most analysts agree that production has actually declined over the past nine months. Russian oil production is still nowhere near the 11.5 million barrel per day of the mid 1980s. While it’s true that uncertainty surrounding Yukos and a lack of new foreign investment have impaired oil production over the past year-and-a-half, the problem runs deeper. ..
http://www.kcifinance.com/CT01.1052.html

or http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full ... _id=151904

better information on developments in Russia courtesy of Sprott Asset Management
http://www.sprott.com/peakoil.php

JAN 2 Russian oil production up 2.1% in Jan-Nov, gas - 2.5% (Interfax)
http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/finances/26. ... e=11656451
Comment: Because Russia's internal demand is growing faster than production, Russia's role as oil producer for the world is diminishing.
Excerpt: Oil exports to countries outside the CIS amounted to 193.3 million tonnes in the first eleven months of 2006, down 1.1%. Oil exports to the CIS in the reporting period amounted to 33.25 million tonnes, down 5%.

If the point is profit seeking, why isn't very-deep-oil savvy Russia cashing in?

See Wintler additional investment and development in the technology and skills of deep drilling, of deep seismic measurement and interpretation, of the reservoir properties of crystalline rock, and of the associated completion and production practices which should be applied in such non-traditional reservoirs, is out of my personal budget.

But not out of budget for the hundreds of profit seeking oil exploration companies out there - why can't they find any or bring it to market? Are they all in every country inhibited from doing so by .. who again?

however, i have an i nner believe from what I read read, who i have read and the people I have met over the years that the whole peak oil thing is a massive woolen cloak over the eyes of the masses...can I prove it...nope.

hope your i nner believe keeps your feet warm, now how about footnoting your many posts insisting hoax with "believe but have only a very few pretty old cut'n'pastes supporting only one aspect of my claim as proof"?

But follow the money, always follow the money. Btw, I will not waste your time on this anymore

Another quitter, dont ya hate it when someone calls your bluff.

[stickdog99]

I made my points and I resent your bs mischaracterization of them.

Your ground rule "prove peak oil is a hoax" is full of shit.

Why don't you instead prove for us that peak oil is true?

Why don't you further explain to us why Joe Sixpack with nothing but a few small debts and perhaps a small patch of land to his name should give a damn?

Why don't you tell us why renewable energy sources (and other alternatives to cheaply refined oil) must remain comparatively expensive, even when -- in your peak oil scenario -- oil prices inevitably double and then quadruple as oil becomes scarce?

Why don't you explain to us why you seem to believe that oil production is suddenly driving oil distribution when the entire history of the commodity demonstrates the exact opposite?

I'm not buying what you're selling. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure what you are selling. To me, peak oil (if imminent) is an opportunity.

The problem is not that oil is running out. The sun will still be shining almost everywhere, and the wind will still be blowing almost everywhere. That's a lot of free energy. All we need to do is harness a portion of it. The problem is that Big Oil (in symbiosis with the big US defense contractors) currently controls most of the distribution of energy in the world. Anything that helps break that stranglehold is positive.

[isachar]

I made my points and I resent your bs mischaracterization of them.

Your ground rule "prove peak oil is a hoax" is full of shit.

Why don't you instead prove for us that peak oil is true?

Why don't you further explain to us why Joe Sixpack with nothing but a few small debts and perhaps a small patch of land to his name should give a damn?

Why don't you tell us why renewable energy sources (and other alternatives to cheaply refined oil) must remain comparatively expensive, even when -- in your peak oil scenario -- oil prices inevitably double and then quadruple as oil becomes scarce?

Why don't you explain to us why you seem to believe that oil production is suddenly driving oil distribution when the entire history of the commodity demonstrates the exact opposite?

I'm not buying what you're selling. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure what you are selling. To me, peak oil (if imminent) is an opportunity.

The problem is not that oil is running out. The sun will still be shining almost everywhere, and the wind will still be blowing almost everywhere. That's a lot of free energy. All we need to do is harness a portion of it. The problem is that Big Oil (in symbiosis with the big US defense contractors) currently controls most of the distribution of energy in the world. Anything that helps break that stranglehold is positive.

stickdog, I too an curious as to wintler's motives as his posts are unnecessarily provocative, dismissive and argumentative over a serious subject.

Supply (of anything, even a theoretically fixed/limited resource) will always be a function of price, technology and available substitutes.

It took a couple years of economics, being a resource specialist during the 1980 oil shale days in western Colo, lots of hard knocks, and working with one of the foremost urban/regional economists to understand that. It's a valuable lesson, one that wintler doesn't seem to have learned yet.

[Kid Of The Black Hole]

I made my points and I resent your bs mischaracterization of them.

Your ground rule "prove peak oil is a hoax" is full of shit.

Why don't you instead prove for us that peak oil is true?

Why don't you further explain to us why Joe Sixpack with nothing but a few small debts and perhaps a small patch of land to his name should give a damn?

Why don't you tell us why renewable energy sources (and other alternatives to cheaply refined oil) must remain comparatively expensive, even when -- in your peak oil scenario -- oil prices inevitably double and then quadruple as oil becomes scarce?

Why don't you explain to us why you seem to believe that oil production is suddenly driving oil distribution when the entire history of the commodity demonstrates the exact opposite?

I'm not buying what you're selling. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even sure what you are selling. To me, peak oil (if imminent) is an opportunity.

The problem is not that oil is running out. The sun will still be shining almost everywhere, and the wind will still be blowing almost everywhere. That's a lot of free energy. All we need to do is harness a portion of it. The problem is that Big Oil (in symbiosis with the big US defense contractors) currently controls most of the distribution of energy in the world. Anything that helps break that stranglehold is positive.

stickdog, I too an curious as to wintler's motives as his posts are unnecessarily provocative, dismissive and argumentative over a serious subject.

Supply (of anything, even a theoretically fixed/limited resource) will always be a function of price, technology and available substitutes.

It took a couple years of economics, being a resource specialist during the 1980 oil shale days in western Colo, lots of hard knocks, and working with one of the foremost urban/regional economists to understand that. It's a valuable lesson, one that wintler doesn't seem to have learned yet.

Yeah I was gonna post a response that in effect even if its true its still a scam, and maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing/TEOTWAWKI but the OP seems to want someone to write him a thesis on the topic when the truth is most of the hard data is so obscured, unavailable, uncollected, or simply falsified that we have no fucking clue.

Oil isn't going to dry up tomorrow.

[erosoplier]

And Merikans are gonna stay first in line even if there are shortages, so what's to worry, hey?

[erosoplier]

Apologies for the above snarky post. It's hot like an oven where I am, believe it or not, and we're in the middle of a drought, and I'm feeling completely powerless as usual...

I guess the point is, if it's worth doing over other countries in order to gain control of their oil, then there obviously isn't quite enough oil to go around.