So out of curiousity who here has a history with DU?

[Seventhsonjr]

If I could find all the Wellstone stuff, I would share it.

I can't find any of the earliest stuff I posted in the days and weeks after the original crash. However, here's what still exists:

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... c&start=15

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... php?t=2049

http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/v ... hp?t=14273

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 104x246370

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 04x2167138

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 04x2166601

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... =125x19485

The "great" back and forth thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 104x561809

Continued here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... _id=575117

Another poll about Wellstone with a lot of back & forth:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 104x972753

I have been in a deep funk lately and posting very little but these links cheered me up.

Es[ecially the last one whixch was a po9ll I posted on whether the BFEE murdered Wellstone that had lots of interesting discussion and facts and drew out the attack dogs. Jeff, among others, was there to help too on my assertion that the evidence in the Wellstone crash pointed to EMP weapons killing the electrical system.

That cheered me up.

Because election night 2004 someone impostored me at DU . They claimed, posing as me, eoither through using my password or hacking my ISP somehow (which I understand is pretty easy to do for military-intel mercenary disinfo types) - that I was a deep cover long term freeper mole. They posted homophoboic attacks and pm'd folks (including Andy Stephenson - who thankfully saw right through this and we spoke by phone about it - and he helped hook me up with Jeff utlimately) and threatened people - ALL POSING AS ME!

I was banned while watching the returns that night.

I had spent years opposing Kerry as Gore's VP due to his skull and bones ties to the BFEE and my belief that Gore would be endangered by a bonesman a heartbeat away from the presidency. But after Gore bowed out and Kerry won I got in line VERY reluctantly. Same reason I oppose Hillary as Obama's VP - it makes him an easy BFEE mark with her Arkansas-Mena-Stephens group-Bin Laden money ties to the BFEE,

Anyway, I can't aqccess DU archives so I tends to foirget what a great team of folks were there posting and backing each opther up on subjects like these. That thread got over 200 comments on Wellstone's murder (and most at DU believed that) and drew out the provocateurs.

I am the same seventhson and came here only after Andy connected me to "minstrelboy" and RI and Jeff believed I was set up at DU by folks who considered me too dangerous and knowledeable and influential to post there. I got attacked a Lot AND EVEN ENDURED SOME DEATH THREATS AFTER MY MANY POSTS ON THE BUSH-NAZI DETAILS and ties.

Because my Dad worked with the antiNazi resistance/underground in Europe and Latin America during and after WWII I was raised knowing about the Rockefeller/Dulles/Bush Wall Street ties to both Hitler/Nazis AND Stalin/Soviets. And I underdtand blackops/propoganda and agitprop etc better than most.

For whatever reason They figured they had to get rid of me election night 2004. I thik because I was undeterred by their massive assaults, insults and tagteaming disinfo and harassment.

Unfortunately Skinne et al were either complicit or chickenshit or just too lazy to vet my actual ID and credentials which I sent to them. Andy knew them. I sent them to Jeff too. I even sent them to Will Pitt but he stabbed me in the back at DU (and we fought about his and his "posses" support for Kerry and the Skull/BFEE thing often).

Since I can't access those DU archives it is great to read my own old posts there and see how the freeper-mole vultures came after me and hoiw Jeff and others hung by me rather than let me hang alone.

That last thread linked above in your comment has it all.



Nice

[Seventhsonjr]

Democratic Underground, that is. I know some of you do.

I did a quick google of seventhson and democraticunderground and read a LOT of posts (including some by Jeff and Andy talking about what I had allegedly PM'd them - Which were REALLY done by whoever impostored me).

An interesting thread I had never read before.

Thanks God that Andy - with whom I maintained phone contact during the election and during his last illnesses) BELIEVED that I was set up. As did Jeff.

But interesting too to see HOW I was attacked for my opposition to Clark and Jerry (I supported Dean in 2004, but they say I hated ALL dems, etc.) and my "crazy" opposition to nuclear power.

There are more things and there are issues which I can be criticized for (falling for the Alexandra Polier story with Kerry and trusting a source about ties of Clark to Guantanamo where Hatian men were develoiping breasts from chemcial exposure there - turns out Clark was only in charge of some units there and not the whole camp at the time.) I was ridiculed (the first google hit is for this) for blaming Clark for the documented condition regarding the Haitian men's illness (which was a very real problem and although Clark was head of the southern command which had jurisdiction over the Haitian prison camps at Guantanamo - he did not have that jurisdiction or command at the time of the allegations by a Haitian human rights group in Miami.

Anyway -

It is a kind of interesting thread about me being a right wing asshole (which I am not) and tells a lot about how MUCH they wanted to ruin my online reputation.

Folks urged me to return under another name - but I always wanted to clear my OWN username there as I use it on a number of boards.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 57#2582396

[Seventhsonjr]

Funny comments from Jeff and "Symbolman":

Just to show how effective the smear against me was at DU, here are two comments from the link and thread I posted above from "Symbolman" ( a great video producer and antiwar veteran) and Jeff as "Minstrelboy".

The fact that I got banned and could not respond was very painful for me.

Jeff and Andy communicated finally and Jeff decided I HAD been impostored. It was such a relief to find folks from RI and also PI (Progressive Independent - ie Tinoire - who invited me to post there) who BELIEVED that I had been impostored. It took MONTHS before anyone but Andy believed me (because we had spoken numerous times on the phone and at other sites)But check this out, berfore Jeff knew what had happened to me:


symbolman (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-04-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
104. Seventhson
actually gave me the phone number of his sister who worked to get folks on the radio during the democratic convention when I was there..

She called me and apologised for not getting me on any of the shows there in time, was interested in Voting machine problems and sent me to many good sites on the subject, very helpful actually..

I was so surprised when I got his nasty email that I thougt someone had hacked the mail system here and sent me a freeper note through his name..

but I guess with everyone else getting it then it must be true, but I am puzzled - he actually did impart some historical links to me about jews who had fought to get out of the country and against the Nazis..

I actually thought we had a relationship going, that he as intelligent and reachable, but then got the "suck aids dicks and die" PM.. too bad, if he channeled the right personality he would probably be an interesting and crossover pal..

but not with little love notes like the one he sent.

hard to imagine someone with the potential for a personality and then they come across like a psychotic 8 year old.

shame. I sort of liked the guy in a way, thought he had brains.. I mean, the whole point of free speech and being an american, a true american is that you can disagree with someone and still have a beer with them and some ribs..

but he came off as someone that would rape my dog in the end.. why can't they channel the correct part of their brain?



Minstrel Boy (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-04-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #104
123. "hard to imagine someone
with the potential for a personality and then they come across like a psychotic 8 year old."

Exactly.

seventhson, I'd thought, was histrionic and eccentric, but not duplicitous. Still, more disturbing, is that the face he finally revealed was so vulgar, hate-filled and childish. It was as though a young sociopath had been masquerading as an adult.

Well, he fooled me. But so be it. I'd rather be fooled occassionally than presume the worst of people here. However I will be turning up the discernment knob to 11.









I guess I can be histrionic and eccentric at times, Jeff - but for real when fighting these Nazis it is hard not to be so>

[stickdog99]

seventhson,

Even though I had no idea what was going on at the time, I could never believe that you were anything but completely on the up and up and I tried to defend you against the DU lynch mob.

But considering the vagaries of the internet, this is not the easiest call to make. For example, I also recall characterizing Nico Haupt as an obviously overwrought but still well-meaning person, and we all know how that turned out.

[compared2what?]

May I ask a question out of total innocent ignorance? I know almost nothing about DU, for no very complicated reason. At some point, I glanced at it, saw that it and I weren't meant for each other, and thought of it no more.

What is/was the appeal of the site? There's not an RI poster on this thread with a DU past or present whom I don't regard as so much more politically serious than the venue is, I dont...You know, I'm not quite sure how to put this. But a best effort would be:

It's not simply that I don't understand the site's appeal. It's that I also don't understand why I don't understand it.

Experience has taught me to regard that particular cognitive two-step as a blinking-light warning-sign to self, indicating that the flaw is in my thinking rather than in the subject I'm thinking about. So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to even frame the question. Please feel free to reframe it. But roughly, it is:

What don't I understand about the attractive qualities of DU, if anyone has any guesses?

[mentalgongfu2]

compared2what: i won't be very helpful, but nevertheless

I first heard about the place (DU) here, and it was in a negative context. I've only heard about DU in a negative context. And I've only visited it from links posted at RI. Even if I had heard of it, I'm so much of a cynic, I expect I would have been automatically repelled from the name alone. I just wish I remembered how I found RI to begin with. Ahh, the wandering consciousness of the Net . . .

[8bitagent]

What's just as weird, is how so many of the neo Nazi/militant white supremist forums, they somehow absolutely love 9/11 truth, new world order, Alex Jones type stuff. Of course, in their twisted minds it all leads back to "the Jews trying to keep the white man down"

[Avalon]

Avalon:

You didn't get the point. Names fly all over the place, yes.

I said, personal attacks from the bedunker side are tolerated, whereas as we now see, it's not allowed to point out a simple and public truth about a Republican posting at DU, if he's on the bedunker side.

It's very obvious that DU has a double standard about what views and practices it tolerates or encourages. It's a policy that's repellant, and despicable, for those wanting thoughtful conversation. That's a fact, and pointedly driven home by this latest discovery. While the dominant political and cultural perspective there may be different from the Republican one, in practice the ambience at Democratic Underground is not much different from that at Free Republic.

But the petty namecalling and personal attacks? I'm a mommy, so the "He did it first, so I'm doing it back" argument doesn't get very far with me. I'm being tough on you Jack, because you are a great content provider, and petty little insults like "bedunker" take away from what you have to say. I'm asking more of you because I think you have more to give the movement.

While there is a certain place for masterly invective, rote namecalling is a distraction and energy waster.

The reason boloboffin and LARED and their buddies thrive on DU, aside from what seems to be official tolerance, is that smart, articulate, progressive posters continually engage with their provocations and manipulations, as if hoping that there will be communication happening instead of trolling.

It ain't gonna happen. The trolls are always going to grab your neck and pull you under if you get near them. They are energy vampires, and they know your hot buttons.

Yes, I know that we all have our lines in the sand, when it comes to bad information out there that we feel can't be left to stand. But there is a big difference between calmly and persuasively countering bad information with good, and scrapping with trolls over it.

Don't take the poison bait.

Quite the eminently reasonable Alan Colmesian liberal take, Avalon.

Ouch. Stickdog, that's ... harsh.

But seeing as I don't watch talking head television, I'm afraid the nuances of the comparison are wasted on me. I have on occasion had people scream at me online for being so "INFURIATINGLY REASONABLE," as someone once put it. You're not the first. Oh well. Perhaps you could direct me to a tutorial on being a gonzo badass? (Anyone pulling their hair out at this point, please sweep it up and put it in the garbage. Thank you.)

edited to fix formatting

[Avalon]

What don't I understand about the attractive qualities of DU, if anyone has any guesses?

I started posting there because of one particular issue that was getting some good distributed sleuthing there that I could contribute to. I'd been doing it at another political board, but that one had started to get toxic for various reasons.

I've rarely posted or read anywhere other than the 9/11 dungeon there. I'm involved with that simply because there is a critical mass of people doing research there, research that I feel advances our understanding of 9/11. While enough of them are still posting there, it's usually worth my while to read it, and offer what I can to add to it. While most of them will never post, it's got a large readership of silent lurkers, and I feel it's important to give them quality information, and support those posters who are doing some excellent research.

If it weren't for that, I don't think I'd have anything to do with DU. I don't like it much as a whole.

[stickdog99]

May I ask a question out of total innocent ignorance? I know almost nothing about DU, for no very complicated reason. At some point, I glanced at it, saw that it and I weren't meant for each other, and thought of it no more.

What is/was the appeal of the site? There's not an RI poster on this thread with a DU past or present whom I don't regard as so much more politically serious than the venue is, I dont...You know, I'm not quite sure how to put this. But a best effort would be:

It's not simply that I don't understand the site's appeal. It's that I also don't understand why I don't understand it.

Experience has taught me to regard that particular cognitive two-step as a blinking-light warning-sign to self, indicating that the flaw is in my thinking rather than in the subject I'm thinking about. So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to even frame the question. Please feel free to reframe it. But roughly, it is:

What don't I understand about the attractive qualities of DU, if anyone has any guesses?

From November to January 2001, I was going nuts watching people say "machines count better than people" on TV and having the commentators act as if this were an eminently reasonable argument. By the middle of September 2001, I was having my doubts about Flight 93. In October 2001, I saw the video of Bush in the classroom. I was posting on Usenet newsgroups like a lone voice in the wilderness. I don't think I ever received one word of online encouragement during this entire time, and, when I received any responses at all, I was invariably shouted down by a maelstrom of "patriotism."

Then a google search led me to DU, a place where there were scores of intelligent people discussing these topics. DU was a far different place during its growth phase. Almost anything was allowed except for actively and explicitly advocating for Republicans/Republican policies over Democrats/Democratic policies. DU basically operated as a meritocracy (with the notable exception of its administrators, of course). The best posters became obvious and their posts were almost always well worth reading. I started contributing more and more just to give back a little to those I respected, and in doing so, I rose in the ranks of the meritocracy and developed my own audience -- probably the largest appreciative audience I've ever had.

DU was also an oasis of sanity when our corporate media was cheerleading the Iraq War. It wasn't until early in the 2004 primary season that the Skinner box element of DU became wholly evident to me. And by that point, I had invested so much time and energy there that it was hard to just walk away. Staying and trying to "fix" DU was somewhat analogous to remaining a US citizen. Of course, my efforts didn't work out too well in the former case, but I still quixotically persevere in the latter.

[stickdog99]

Avalon, when being attacked by a slew of "skeptical" trollbots in a place like DU's 9/11 forum where they have most favored poster status you have three choices. You can lose, you can refuse to play, or you can beat them at their own game. Yes, the game is rigged to the point that even when you "win" the few brave souls who actually read your back and forth are all pulling out their hair.

But as Al Lewis said, "The victory is in the struggle. ... I fight against them. I stretch 'em out. I'm not out to save the world."

As an aside, bedunkers is nothing more than shorthand for "debunkers" so it hardly qualifies as name calling. Personally, I'll stick to typing the other two keystrokes, but I can't see how using bedunkers lowers the level of discourse in any discernible way.

[MacCruiskeen]

the game is rigged to the point that even when you "win" the few brave souls who actually read your back and forth are all pulling out their hair.

Precisely. I can confirm this both as a one-time participant (from early 2004 onwards, for precisely 81 posts, until I got tombstoned) and as a frequent observer, whenever I could stomach it for half an hour.


Typical result of visiting DU's 9/11 subforum

I can't see how using bedunkers lowers the level of discourse in any discernible way.

When called a "9/11Truther" or "troofer", I now respond by referring to the namecallers -- the anti-truthers -- as "9/11Falsers". In my experience, that stymies them every time. Either they depart from the field or they have to stop the namecalling and start addressing the issues.

[compared2what?]

May I ask a question out of total innocent ignorance? I know almost nothing about DU, for no very complicated reason. At some point, I glanced at it, saw that it and I weren't meant for each other, and thought of it no more.

What is/was the appeal of the site? There's not an RI poster on this thread with a DU past or present whom I don't regard as so much more politically serious than the venue is, I dont...You know, I'm not quite sure how to put this. But a best effort would be:

It's not simply that I don't understand the site's appeal. It's that I also don't understand why I don't understand it.

Experience has taught me to regard that particular cognitive two-step as a blinking-light warning-sign to self, indicating that the flaw is in my thinking rather than in the subject I'm thinking about. So I'm kind of at a loss as to how to even frame the question. Please feel free to reframe it. But roughly, it is:

What don't I understand about the attractive qualities of DU, if anyone has any guesses?

From November to January 2001, I was going nuts watching people say "machines count better than people" on TV and having the commentators act as if this were an eminently reasonable argument. By the middle of September 2001, I was having my doubts about Flight 93. In October 2001, I saw the video of Bush in the classroom. I was posting on Usenet newsgroups like a lone voice in the wilderness. I don't think I ever received one word of online encouragement during this entire time, and, when I received any responses at all, I was invariably shouted down by a maelstrom of "patriotism."

Then a google search led me to DU, a place where there were scores of intelligent people discussing these topics. DU was a far different place during its growth phase. Almost anything was allowed except for actively and explicitly advocating for Republicans/Republican policies over Democrats/Democratic policies. DU basically operated as a meritocracy (with the notable exception of its administrators, of course). The best posters became obvious and their posts were almost always well worth reading. I started contributing more and more just to give back a little to those I respected, and in doing so, I rose in the ranks of the meritocracy and developed my own audience -- probably the largest appreciative audience I've ever had.

DU was also an oasis of sanity when our corporate media was cheerleading the Iraq War. It wasn't until early in the 2004 primary season that the Skinner box element of DU became wholly evident to me. And by that point, I had invested so much time and energy there that it was hard to just walk away. Staying and trying to "fix" DU was somewhat analogous to remaining a US citizen. Of course, my efforts didn't work out too well in the former case, but I still quixotically persevere in the latter.

Thanks! That did actually allow a light to shine on the cognitive wrong turn I had been taking while attempting to reach the Understanding DU Theme Park and Resort.

I was on the much the same schedule as you were, give or take a week here or there, and wrt much the same concerns. Definitely, during the first two weeks of November 2000, I freaked out to a greater degree than I ever had before, because I perceived a threat much farther-reaching than I ever had before. Which has gone on to do pretty much nothing other than reach even farther ever since, obvs. Though I never say anything along those lines without feeling that it's a little insulting to Ronald Reagan not to remember how truly and deeply frightening and dangerous he really was. So here's to him. Salud.

It just would never have occurred to me to seek like-minded people at that point. I has already spent too many years feeling satisfied with myself for not knowing any. Though (in all fairness to me) that wasn't the only thing I felt. Nor did it play any part in the origins of my unlike-mindedness. But beyond that, the defense rests.

A character flaw's a character flaw, for a' that. And vanity is one. I'd say. And a dangerous one if it induces paralysis at precisely the same time action is most called for.

So: Good to know. I mean for me, obviously. But I hope something in it shines a light on something somewhere for some other lost travellers as well.

Thanks again. You rock.

[JackRiddler]

MacC:

Where did you get that picture of the back of my head? Please don't publish without permission. Thank you.

[MacCruiskeen]

MacC:

Where did you get that picture of the back of my head? Please don't publish without permission. Thank you.

Jack, rest assured, it's a generic photo, courtesy of Google Images Inc. (our "friend and helper", as the German police describe themselves, unconvincingly). But it also depicts my own head and the ravaged head of any other would-be Theseus who ventures into that labyrinth to challenge the Bulloboffin, as those of us say who have small Latin and less Greek, and are inordinately proud of it and want to advertise it to the world.

compared2what's style is rubbing off on me, I hope (vainly), which brings me to my next post, as I intended.