9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:15 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:By your light, the right way is to speak - scream actually - in terms unworthy of a fifth-grader. Insist on provably flat-out incorrect statements as revealed "truth," and accuse anyone who doesn't assent and applaud of supporting the bad guys. Fact check?! That's so gay!


That little tantrum would be so much less embarrassing for you, if you had ever once, just once, pointed out a "provably flat-out incorrect statement" I've made. Maybe I've blocked it out: have you?

As for screaming, I admit I have a temper, but even in extremis I rarely use "terms unworthy of a fifth-grader". Indeed, you yourself once pointed out my excellent command of "the language", did you not?

Fact check?! That's so gay!


Wow, that sounds just like something I'd say. Uncanny.


No, it sounds like what a little American child doing macho postures would say, like the homophobe Alex Jones, the acknowledged original inspiration of the WAC movement. Seeing as I was riffing on the "We Are Change" style, and not yours.

In context, I was responding not to any of your own original theses, but to your manner of defending the video with which this thread began, and "We Are Change" as a "movement." (My objections to the video were given in detail in my first post on this thread, so refer to that.)

But all that is obvious.

As for your work here, one need only do a search for our user names in combination to find their fill in edifying and combative exchanges between you and me, ad infinitum. Unlike Alex Jones, Loose Change, WAC, and the video in question, I don't believe you've been caught making up facts. Just fitting them into an immutable prior master thesis, so that the end result may as well be fiction. It is, I acknowledge, much more sophisticated. And you'd never say "that's so gay," which, in case you aren't aware, is a current American idiom for "that's so lame." Which is wrong, and I don't mean to encourage its unironic use.

Actually, I doubt the 9/11 wing of the Teabag Party makes up very many facts, either. It's more like they have a loose hold on the concept, so that they get facts routinely and painfully wrong. When caught, they react by insisting they're right, becoming increasingly stubborn and aggressive the more wrong they are proven.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Simulist » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:04 pm

Everybody has THE TRUTH. (Or they "think" they do.)

They often get pretty loud about it, when challenged.

And then all listening stops.

That's where 9/11 "Truth" is today. (Or it seems so, to me.)
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:14 pm

Simulist wrote:Everybody has THE TRUTH. (Or they "think" they do.)

They often get pretty loud about it, when challenged.

And then all listening stops.

That's where 9/11 "Truth" is today. (Or it seems so, to me.)



Well, I don't. The thing about 9/11 and the JFK murder are that the disinfo spect of it has been so beautifully set up (diabolically beautiful) that it's impossible to really find out anything.

But there are some things we DO know.

JFK was murdered. It was a conspiracy of someone. The official story is nonsense.

9/11 was some sort of conspiracy, we were lied to about it, the official story is nonsense, and there is an ongoing coverup as to the truth of it.

Same with the "Anthrax killer".

However, when it comes to Building 7, I honestly don't see how anyone can look at the video of it falling, acknowledge the fact that for a time it fell at a free-fall speed, and NOT come to the 99.9% certain conclusion that it was a controlled demolition.

To me, saying that it wasn't is like saying the planes were holograms.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Jeff » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:48 pm

Jeff wrote:Seriously, 9/11 Truth and me man, we’re fucking done professionally.


norton ash wrote:Jeff, wait, nooo!!! Who's going to be our Dark Knight?


Well today I found out what Batman can't do. He can't endure this. Today you get to say "I told you so."

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby American Dream » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:34 pm

Nordic wrote:
The thing about 9/11 and the JFK murder are that the disinfo spect of it has been so beautifully set up (diabolically beautiful) that it's impossible to really find out anything.

But there are some things we DO know.

JFK was murdered. It was a conspiracy of someone. The official story is nonsense.

9/11 was some sort of conspiracy, we were lied to about it, the official story is nonsense, and there is an ongoing coverup as to the truth of it.


Peter Dale Scott's deep political analysis of 9/11 and JFK stands in stark contrast to much of what passes for intelligent commentary on these subjects. See for example:

"9/11, JFK, and War: Recurring Patterns in America's Deep Events." Journal of 9/11 Studies
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:40 pm

To answer MacC's question, I believe there is a way forward, but it will not come from those who now constitute the remaining "9/11 truth movement."

- Of the axis of LC, WAC, Alex Jones, Paulites, and their Teabag friends, enough said.

- Of the "serious" demolitions people (Gage's group, S. Jones, Griffin, et al.), they will never show that the official explanation of the collapse is altogether impossible, and they seem incapable of figuring out that even if they could, their strategy will not work to change the political balance in favor of real investigation and disclosure. I consider it likelier that if you could get the orchestrators behind bars for other reasons, they might confess to having used explosives to topple the buildings (assuming they did), than that you will catch them by "proving" demolitions.

If we restrict ourselves to the original goals of disclosing what happened on Sept. 11th in a way that establishes a new consensus on its reality and achieves justice for the victims, and not to the larger matter of the great and global political changes we all desire, then the possibilities for a way forward seem to be:

- The revolution is won elsewhere and the deep state records are opened.

- Those who can sing, do sing. Very unlikely from primary perpetrators. Possible from the larger circle of complicity. As for whistleblowers who weren't involved, we have the examples of Sibel Edmonds and Anthony Shaeffer, among others, to instruct us (and potential others). Completely unrelated to Sept. 11, but highly instructive in a way that no merely suspicious death can be, was the recent case of Bradley Birkenfeld - nailed by the Justice Department. The "clearing" of Yoo and Bybee can hardly be thought encouraging, either.

- Revelations in another area prompt a reassessment of 9/11 as well. The closest possibility relating to 9/11 would be the revelation that Bin Ladin is dead and the videos and audio since 2004 or 2001 are fakes. Meatier revelations about details of Afghanistan war planning and negotiations with the Taliban prior to Sept. 11 might also prompt a new look. A new deep state operation on the same scale as 9/11 might unravel and fail publicly, before fruition. But I'm reduced to thinking the likeliest scenario at this point is that the JFK assassination story can no longer be denied, which may start with revelations about Oswald's role with the CIA. That in turn would at least get historians revising everything after 1963, and within a decade or so they'd get back to 2001.

Sorry if that's not the answer you want to hear.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby AlicetheKurious » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:24 pm

JackRiddler wrote:As for your work here, one need only do a search for our user names in combination to find their fill in edifying and combative exchanges between you and me, ad infinitum. Unlike Alex Jones, Loose Change, WAC, and the video in question, I don't believe you've been caught making up facts. Just fitting them into an immutable prior master thesis, so that the end result may as well be fiction.


What's most edifying, in my opinion, is how consistently, in these combative exchanges, I respond to your specific claims with my own counter-arguments and evidence, rather than ignoring them and trying to distract with ad hominem attacks.

The reason is simple: if a hypothesis is true, then it must be consistent with all the facts and with logic. Your constant complaint (echoed by American Dream) that my facts are true but that I "fit them" into a "master thesis" makes no sense. Any hypothesis, by definition, is selective in highlighting certain facts and de-emphasizing others. It's only if any evidence is found that discredits the hypothesis, that it must be addressed, either proven false or the hypothesis discarded. In other words, emphasizing certain facts and not others is what a hypothesis does; in no way does it make the hypothesis false, as you imply.

I realize that in the case of 9/11, the pool of potentially relevant facts is vast, and it's quite possible to make a rational argument for a number of very different scenarios for how this crime was committed and by whom. In such a case, then it's a question of deciding which scenario makes the most sense. This is not a subjective criterion, but one that must take into account the physical evidence and ask who had the strongest motive, who had the means to pull it off, and who had the opportunity. In a number of threads, I've presented a great deal of evidence that clearly and unambiguously shines a spotlight on a very specific group of closely-linked individuals who not only had the most compelling motive, means and opportunity, but who directly and massively profited from the crime. The persuasive response to that is not to accuse me of having "an immutable prior master thesis", but to either show where mine is logically or factually flawed (and thus how "it may as well be fiction"), or how your scenario makes more sense without ignoring facts that contradict it.

Given the cataclysmic, global transformations that unfolded and continue to unfold as the direct result of this crime, most of which continue to benefit the very same group of insatiably greedy and well-connected psychos that had the motive, means and opportunity to execute it, I find it perplexing, to say the least, to note how often we're told, "it doesn't matter who did it, or why," before being told we really shouldn't be wasting our time and energy on that old news, or that it's no use, because we'll never "truly" know. Beyond any other considerations, knowledge is necessarily better than ignorance, the more widespread the better. Though the 'truth' movement has not yet brought any of the perps to justice, that does not negate the value of the enormous amount of excellent research that some of its members have compiled for posterity, nor, for that matter, its impact outside America's borders, especially on some who now have a much better understanding of why they are targeted and by whom, and are therefore far better prepared than they would be otherwise. Even within the US, the fact that the perps currently enjoy being above the law does not mean that they should enjoy being above suspicion as well. Such things have a cumulative, incremental effect that may be hard for us to gauge.

If you're not interested, for whatever reason, of course that's your right. But in that case, and if you have nothing serious to contribute to our knowledge of that massive crime and the criminals who executed it, you might want to consider saving your energy for something more productive than standing at the gate and waving people away from looking at it too closely.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby 23 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:45 pm

Simulist wrote:Everybody has THE TRUTH. (Or they "think" they do.)

They often get pretty loud about it, when challenged.

And then all listening stops.

That's where 9/11 "Truth" is today. (Or it seems so, to me.)


Your comment, Simulist, reminded me of something that Bertrand Russell once said:

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.”


Which further reminded me of something else that he said:

“Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.”
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Searcher08 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:31 pm

http://www.4acloserlookat911.com/?tag=indira-singh

Indira wrote this below after the (very suspicious) death of her friend and fellow investigator Michael Corbin.

Where’s the Beef?

It’s like this:

You know someone was murdered, and you have the primary weapon/mechanism of injury, but you think the deed was done with more than one weapon. Additionally, you have “confessions in writing”, a “diversity of written evidence regarding the plot”, from the perps and all their accomplices, not to mention the corroborating testimony of several “eye-witnesses” to these “confessions in writing” and “diversity of written evidence”.

Here are my questions:

* Do you let the damn perps free because you don’t have that potential second weapon?
* Do you say, hmmm, we have seen the buildings come down from the airplanes, and we have all this stellar evidence regarding terrorism financing that implicated everyone, but you know, we really aren’t going to do something about it, until we can figure out if there were bombs in the buildings ahead of time (second weapon).
* Do you propose we should know what the perp said to someone 10,000 miles away 10 years ago, and until they have that there will be no criminal case.

Yeah that’s the ticket! Welcome to the 9/11 Truth Out Movement, it moves - IMO like greased “something” that’s for sure - wasting no time ensuring (in the Name of The Victims) every single conceivable angle is covered, have they gotten to the Little Green Men from Mars yet.
Even the missing 9/11 terrorism financing evidence carted out of the FBI by those paid off by that USA “Mr. Keep A Lid on It” out of Sacramento doesn’t make a difference.
Here’s the beef:
The money trails already on file are the “confessions in writing” etc. so get a grip and pay attention where you need to, those of you who have lost, you don’t also have to be losers.
Furthermore, explain this one to me - or better yet, yourselves: those waiting for magic to appear wrt. their second weapon - bomb - theories, other than wasting 7 precious litigative years, understand full well their bomb theories lead to the same places of elite evil the money trails - already on file - lead. So my question is, who the heck is PAYING YOU for your useless, justice-delaying charades? Hollywood - the backbone of the Military Industrial Intelligence Entertainment complex?
It proved to be playing a role THEN in 2004, and it certainly proves so NOW in 2008, both election years.

By way of some explanation, in following the money behind what passes for “Public Radio” these days, Mike Corbin, a civilian from Texas and I found “Public Radio” more in the pockets of the euphemistic “Boys from Texas” than anyone could imagine. This realization, in 2005, made those very few of us with 9/11 justice on our minds (not selling books, personal enlightenment agendas, or milking Internet hits) a minority destined to either “wait for Godot” or go do it ourselves.

With Ptech and this group of alleged terrorism financiers, a political “smarmy army”, could always be counted on to play the “anti-Muslim witch-hunt” card. Indeed in this case, we have the presence of two females manning that “gas pump”.

As with any crime, when a political group resorts to that vulgar strawman of a defense, they are betraying our entire country, not to mention justice for the 3,000 people who were murdered.

In my book, murder is still a crime with no statute of limitations. There will never be justice for them, until the police evidence already gathered is litigated somewhere.
(S08 bolding vv)
I always told Michael I would hold one card back. People tend to forget where I had been e.g., the Credit Risk and other Risk areas of the largest banks. It is not understood by many for how long I had been enrolled in writing reports to the Feds on exactly how those irregular activities that escalated with ENRON actually worked. They did leave an indictable trail, and erasing the trail left a bigger mess known as Ground Zero.

It has been said that those who can connect 9/11 with Enron will bring down the house - assuming of course I, (a human being, not a ghoul), am OK with that- not by poking at Taliban meetings in Texas and DC, or ranting on about Unocal, and Unocal’s strange love for Yaqub Mirza of Ptech, nor even Enron’s servers being used to serve Eastern European porn including kiddie porn, that Daniel Akamai (a 9/11 victim on AA flight 11), was purportedly “investigating” with Lew Perdue (Mr. Mirza’s other business venture) - but with hard evidence.

The card I withheld connects this sorry mess in Boston to the unholy tangle of financial networks that implicate key politicians in this country at the top, both sides of the aisle. The Government did prevent the political whores comprising the 9/11 Commission from pulling on the string connected to Ptech - but not for long.

There are other weak points - a very specific one involving Enron - will expose the same group of people, the same names - including this sorry bunch with their newly found love for the US Constitution. And, it includes “Chicago”.


The alternative press that stole from Mike won’t be able to steal that last hope for 9/11 justice and destroy it.

Perhaps, it’s time to play that 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden and ENRON evidence where it will be heard, judged and tried: in a Consitutionally sanctioned court of public opinion, since we can’t get it done right in a Court of Purchased Law of the Land.

DISINFORMATION GHOULS will give this topic a wide berth as they forge ahead with their serial mess-making activities. I can only offer this: what goes around comes around and I know you’re all feeling a little queasy deep down inside where your truth lies, right about now. Ignore it, it’s what you people do best.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby smiths » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:50 pm

i dont know that much about america,
but in most countries the left is terrified of any kind of movement with 9/11 truth

9/11 truth=conspiracy theories

conspiracy theories=unstable crazy people

to be political or in business in australia and to publicly question the official story of 9/11 would be the end of your carreer,
australian blogs that discuss politics, financial theft, corruption and war flee from 9/11 like cockroaches from the light,
to try and raise 9/11 on these blogs invites ridicule and usually banning

time will need to pass,

and just to add, someone mentioned before that the effects would have been the same whether the buildings came down or not,
i totally reject that,
i watched the buildings burning after the planes had hit and was filled with quite mixed emotions,
when the first building peeled into itself i felt a horror, trauma and disbelief like none i have ever felt,
everything changed not on 9/11, but when those buildings peeled into themselves
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:42 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:The persuasive response to that is not to accuse me of having "an immutable prior master thesis", but to either show where mine is logically or factually flawed (and thus how "it may as well be fiction"), or how your scenario makes more sense without ignoring facts that contradict it.


That is what I believe I did at length in our prior exchanges, and therefore again direct other readers to check those out.

Given the cataclysmic, global transformations that unfolded and continue to unfold as the direct result of this crime, most of which continue to benefit the very same group of insatiably greedy and well-connected psychos that had the motive, means and opportunity to execute it, I find it perplexing, to say the least, to note how often we're told, "it doesn't matter who did it, or why," before being told we really shouldn't be wasting our time and energy on that old news, or that it's no use, because we'll never "truly" know.


How very true. I never say such things.

Beyond any other considerations, knowledge is necessarily better than ignorance, the more widespread the better.


Which is why misinformed and poor treatments of an important issue are a big problem, even where we may tend to share their conclusions. I'm sure we agree.

Though the 'truth' movement has not yet brought any of the perps to justice, that does not negate the value of the enormous amount of excellent research that some of its members have compiled for posterity, nor, for that matter, its impact outside America's borders, especially on some who now have a much better understanding of why they are targeted and by whom, and are therefore far better prepared than they would be otherwise.


Indeed. Emphasis on the some. Some. Not others. As you say.

Even within the US, the fact that the perps currently enjoy being above the law does not mean that they should enjoy being above suspicion as well.


Certainly not. Another reason a factual, sober approach is so important.

Such things have a cumulative, incremental effect that may be hard for us to gauge.


And I expect the same.

If you're not interested, for whatever reason, of course that's your right.


Is this supposed to be a response to me? If so: Strawman.

But in that case, and if you have nothing serious to contribute to our knowledge of that massive crime and the criminals who executed it,


I'm satisfied with the value of my own modest contributions to this cause, and if I see any other thing that might make a positive difference in the mess it's become, I may try again.

you might want to consider saving your energy for something more productive than standing at the gate and waving people away from looking at it too closely.


A patent mis-characterization of everything I've said. Also, stock.

The Loose Change bullshit still doesn't fly, and in its symbiotic combination with the "debunkers" of Stupid vs. Stupid, it has "waved people away" from looking at the Sept. 11th plot too closely. Thanks in part to the PR efforts of the corporate media and the "debunkers," a hundred million people supposedly clicked into LC2 online, and if 90 million thought it was bupkus and they didn't need to ever consider "9/11 conspiracy theory" again, the LC boys would consider it a great success because of the 10 million, most of whom already agreed with them.

I don't "wave people away" from that crap - I describe it as I see it. Criticism once again conflated with censorship - the defense of the weak.
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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:46 pm

JackRiddler wrote:- Of the "serious" demolitions people (Gage's group, S. Jones, Griffin, et al.), they will never show that the official explanation of the collapse is altogether impossible


Except for Building 7.

Which is why, coincidentally, when I mention it to almost anybody, they don't even remember there was a third building that fell that day.

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby Nordic » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:51 pm

smiths wrote:and just to add, someone mentioned before that the effects would have been the same whether the buildings came down or not,
i totally reject that,
i watched the buildings burning after the planes had hit and was filled with quite mixed emotions,
when the first building peeled into itself i felt a horror, trauma and disbelief like none i have ever felt,
everything changed not on 9/11, but when those buildings peeled into themselves



Absolutely! Prior to that it was a couple of horrific plane wrecks. We've all had to deal with plane wrecks, we've all seen them, experienced their reality, we all have the psychological tools to observe that from afar.

But the buildings to collapse and suddenly NOT EXIST, that was the master stroke of this operation. The satanic genius of it.

And that was THE MINDFUCK of the whole event. The mindfuck that nobody will ever get over.

That was unprecedented, unimaginable, and literally unthinkable.

That was the day the unthinkable became reality. And everybody had to just deal with it.

So it did, in fact, change everything.

It was the most powerful psyops ever. Except for ... maybe the first two nuclear bombs. But in that case, everybody knew who did it and why. 9/11 was a mystery on the day it happened and an even greater one now.
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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:24 pm

Nordic wrote:Except for Building 7.


You don't get an argument from me there. If not for it, I wouldn't have bothered! (ON EDIT: Meaning, allowing myself to be pulled at times into considering the energy sinkhole that the demolitions focus became. I certainly would have been just as interested in exposing the official lies about Sept. 11th, during the four or five years when there was still a chance for doing so as a "movement.")

Did you know I did a website about the demolitions hypothesis for the film, Improbable Collapse, for which I acted as a consultant?

http://www.improbablecollapse.com/screens2/index.html

I wasn't happy that a film I thought was going to be more about 9/11 skepticism ended up being about demolitions, but I was happy to be involved in one that sought to present best evidence and counteract the serial embarrassments of "911 Mysteries" and LC2.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: 9/11 and the Left: Is there any way forward?

Postby §ê¢rꆧ » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:50 pm

AlicetheKurious wrote:Though the 'truth' movement has not yet brought any of the perps to justice, that does not negate the value of the enormous amount of excellent research that some of its members have compiled for posterity, nor, for that matter, its impact outside America's borders, especially on some who now have a much better understanding of why they are targeted and by whom, and are therefore far better prepared than they would be otherwise.


I think this sums it up, for me. The role of 9/11 research is to educate the Left, as best it can, and simply that. The Left is the most important movement we've got, I think, and for it to miss understanding the 9/11 leaves a huge gap in its understanding of the state of the world.

It may not have been so for everyone (i.e. JackRiddler), but I think 9/11 was a wake up call for many of us. The Left needs to understand that things are that bad and rotten to the core.

And don't forget that 9/11 was probably the most viewed, in real time, terrorist event, ever. That has to mean something.
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