Mansplaining

[brainpanhandler]

To specifically address the article: Why should I give a shit about some wealthy woman who got offended because some even wealthier man was dismissive of her? She's a published author who can probably afford health insurance and vacations, two things that I cannot. I honestly just don't get it.

Well at least your honest, and right, about not getting it. Did you even read the article?

the out-and-out confrontational confidence of the totally ignorant is, in my experience, gendered. Men explain things to me, and other women, whether or not they know what they're talking about. Some men

Without any doubt true in my experience.

[compared2what?]

C2W. Vitters a sleaze for breaking his vow, but the hooker participates in the breaking of many sacred vows with many different men. Arguably Vitter is only betraying ONE person, the hooker makes it possible for dozens of men (or more) to betray their vows. Either both Vitter and the hooker are bad, bad people or neither one of them is.

I have no opinion on the subject, one way or the other.

I'd tend to think a dude that went around having sex with other guys wives was kind of a douche too, by the way. I think you're perfectly capable of looking back on this thread and seeing where the hostility and bullying went on towards which point of view.

If so, you'd be wrong. But it would be beside the point, anyway. Because it's the vicious disregard for the suffering of men that I need pointed out to me.

Jlaw got a lot more heat than for being far less insulting and and confrontational than me. And I was threatened with suggestion of tos violations, called a dick, that I don't have an idea etc, etc.

It is, of course, nice to see you and Jlaw all bonded and everything.

[Project Willow]

We've been through general debates over feminism and identity politics in the Misogyny and other threads ad nauseum.

For the third time, if someone here wishes to embark on those discussions, please revive the appropriate thread. Otherwise, stay on topic as to gender, and power in communication, specifically.

......................

As for you, Krysos, I just really can't get worked up to give a flying fig what you think, or any other openly misogynist derp bag at the moment. Yeah, that's an insult.

[jlaw172364]

@ProjectWillow

You say that I have no idea who you are or what you've been through . . . except that your profile links to your website where you describe yourself as a survivor of ritual abuse, which gives me some idea as to what your perspective is. Yes, I took the time to click through the links before I initially wrote any response to you. Oops!

As I predicted, you responded to nothing that I wrote, and now you disingenuously claim that because what I wrote was so horrible, in your view, that I'm a horrible person, and you don't need to respond to anything further. How convenient for you.

The historical phenomena of middle-class, upper-middle-class, and wealthy women shaming their boyfriends onto one of the most pointless battlefields in all history where many of them got slaughtered is just one real historical example of SOME women abusing their power over SOME men. Notice how I don't lump a whole population in with the actions of one of its subsets, unlike you? Ironically, this happened when women in Western civilization technically only enjoyed a fraction of the political power they technically have today. Of course, the vast majority of these women are products of their time, were as brainwashed as the men who willingly went to fight, and I'm sure many of them felt horribly guilty about their actions later on.

So, you might argue that they were merely tools of a patriarchy.

As far as I'm concerned, from what I've read of history, it seems that the women at the top are willing co-conspirators in what you describe as the patriarchy. So how is it a patriarchy if male and female elites share power with each other and consult each other on how best to govern their underlings?

Well, there's no point in having a mutual trollfest anymore.

I will say one more thing though, in my defense, is that I don't perceive myself as not listening to women, or not understanding them, at least better than the average schlub. Naturally, as a man, I'll never know the experience of being a woman, but neither will a woman know the experience of being a man, so that kind of balances out, although to hear some women tell it, since I'm a man, and not a woman, it is impossible for me to even deploy my imagination in a genuine attempt to relate to the female experience. But, I never get the sense that women every try to understand what it's like to be a man. Instead, they seem to envy what they perceive to be male power and privilege. But many men don't want the power and privilege bestowed on them by society, but they accept it anyway because they're brainwashed, or conditioned to accept it, and they don't know any other way. They just do what's expected of them, even though they may not like it, because they fear disappointing their family and friends more than doing what makes them happy.

[barracuda]

Ladies of the forum, I again am feeling the utmost sympathy and sadness for your plight. It has to be incredibly frustrating to start at square one over and over and over again, re-encountering arguments that were fought so long ago here, and so hard fought that we had to implement a fucking rule about the matter, a rule which apparently jlaw and Krysos have no compunction ignoring. I can only imagine extrapolating this experience to daily life and then multiplying that across a lifetime. Jesus.

Krysos and jlaw, you need to spend a week or so digesting some Feminism 101 to assimilate some basic guidelines on how to join discussions that women start about their oppression. Here's a quick intro to a few of your issues on this thread, but please, don't stop there in your reading:

What’s wrong with saying that things happen to men, too?

1) Understand that if lots of women say something is important, it is. Your opinion, as a man, about the extent and nature of the problem is not valuable when the specific problem pertains to women’s experience. [...]

2) Always consider the distinction between a class and individual members of a class. If you don’t care about this, and when conversations about class-based oppression you come up with examples of weaker members of the dominant class and more powerful members of the subordinate class, you look an awful lot like someone who doesn’t care about justice. Michael Jordan is better off than me. This indicates precisely nothing about the importance of racism in our society. [...]

3) When you tell us about the male perspective on the issue (“Men don’t intend it this way!” “Men feel weak in relation to women!”) consider that we already understand. And then consider that the reason it looks to you like the male perspective is being excluded or misunderstood is that we’re actually talking about ourselves, and the effect your actions have on us. Further, you function as part of a larger system, and your introspection about your intent doesn’t tell you much about how.

4) Try to pay attention to what’s actually being said. Before you respond to something, think hard about what their actual point is and whether you understand it. If you don’t understand it, ask questions. [...]

5) Do not draw up a bunch of hierarchies about which form of oppression is worse than which other. When you do this, you’re not responding to a claim that what we experience is the worst thing ever; you just show up and start talking about why what the women say they experience is not as big of a deal as X, Y, or Z. [...] Being a woman, no matter what demographic you come from, is an overwhelmingly structuring and determining aspect of your life. In some ways it functions differently depending on your demographic, and in other ways there are striking commonalities, but in no sense is it dominated by other inequalities. Being a woman magnifies the effects of all those inequalities.

More at link.

Sorry to be off-topic, Willow.

[crikkett]

But, I never get the sense that women every try to understand what it's like to be a man.

I do.

[Krysos]

It's ok to deny men's experience, but not women's. If you don't get this you just need to be re-educated in feminism 101. All feelings or thoughts contrary to feminist dogma are thought crimes and will result removal from the forum. This is all part of a free and open exchange of ideas. Men never adopt feminist ideas that they don't truly believe in to please women, and even if they did this wouldn't be an example of female power. Remember, the only gender based disadvantages that exist affect women. Nevermind the fact that it's men that get drafted and die in wars for the elites. Gender based disadvantage is more important than economic based disadvantage. A rich woman who feels unappreciated at a cocktail party is more important than poor people who can't afford healthcare, good food, or basic dignity. It's ok to suggest that differences in race, culture, religion, et cetera can be used by elites to divide and conquer the poor and middle class. It's not ok to suggest that differences in gender could be used by elites in this same way-despite the fact that most people have at least one ex (or current) that drives them crazy. Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

Do I have this about right?

[brainpanhandler]

It's ok to deny men's experience, but not women's. If you don't get this you just need to be re-educated in feminism 101. All feelings or thoughts contrary to feminist dogma are thought crimes and will result removal from the forum. This is all part of a free and open exchange of ideas. Men never adopt feminist ideas that they don't truly believe in to please women, and even if they did this wouldn't be an example of female power. Remember, the only gender based disadvantages that exist affect women. Nevermind the fact that it's men that get drafted and die in wars for the elites. Gender based disadvantage is more important than economic based disadvantage. A rich woman who feels unappreciated at a cocktail party is more important than poor people who can't afford healthcare, good food, or basic dignity. It's ok to suggest that differences in race, culture, religion, et cetera can be used by elites to divide and conquer the poor and middle class. It's not ok to suggest that differences in gender could be used by elites in this same way-despite the fact that most people have at least one ex (or current) that drives them crazy. Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

Do I have this about right?

No. You have it completely fucking wrong. 180 degrees bassackwards. Good work.

This though:

Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

is sort of funny in a way you didn't intend.

Participants have been asked repeatedly to start your own threads if you want to discuss off topic issues, like "bad things happen to men too", etc...

Why haven't you done that? I honestly just don't get it.

[Krysos]

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/08/problem-men-explaining-things-rebecca-solnit

The Problem With Men Explaining Things

Countless women are being told that they are not reliable witnesses to their own lives, that the truth is not their property, now or ever.
By Rebecca Solnit | Mon Aug. 20, 2012 3:38 PM PDT

This story first appeared on the TomDispatch website.

I still don't know why Sallie and I bothered to go to that party in the forest slope above Aspen. The people were all older than us and dull in a distinguished way, old enough that we, at 40ish, passed as the occasion's young ladies. The house was great—if you like Ralph Lauren-style chalets—a rugged luxury cabin at 9,000 feet complete with elk antlers, lots of kilims, and a wood-burning stove. We were preparing to leave, when our host said, "No, stay a little longer so I can talk to you." He was an imposing man who'd made a lot of money.

He kept us waiting while the other guests drifted out into the summer night, and then sat us down at his authentically grainy wood table and said to me, "So? I hear you've written a couple of books."

I replied, "Several, actually."

He said, in the way you encourage your friend's seven-year-old to describe flute practice, "And what are they about?"

Did you know public schools are segregating kids by sex based on discredit research?
They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, my book on the annihilation of time and space and the industrialization of everyday life.

He cut me off soon after I mentioned Muybridge. "And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?"

So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingenue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that another book on the same subject had come out simultaneously and I'd somehow missed it. He was already telling me about the very important book—with that smug look I know so well in a man holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority.

.

The bolded quote is the problem I really have over gender based political discussions. What use is there in this kind of thinking except to encourage gender based hatred of men? This is why men get pissed off over this kind of stuff. It's no different than saying something like "Yeah man, bitches be trippin'." There's no effort to understand, no qualification of why the man might be the way he is, nothing. The supposed oppressor man is simply some non-human instrument of patriarchal oppression. It's just garbage thinking, and completely destructive to any sort of truce between the genders.

[Krysos]

@ProjectWillow

You say that I have no idea who you are or what you've been through . . . except that your profile links to your website where you describe yourself as a survivor of ritual abuse, which gives me some idea as to what your perspective is. Yes, I took the time to click through the links before I initially wrote any response to you. Oops!

As I predicted, you responded to nothing that I wrote, and now you disingenuously claim that because what I wrote was so horrible, in your view, that I'm a horrible person, and you don't need to respond to anything further. How convenient for you.

.

This.

[barracuda]

Krysos, while it's becoming more and more obvious that you are, in fact, a dick, I'll try to help you along in your baby steps towards a male understanding of the problems that have you so confused.

It's ok to deny men's experience, but not women's.

This thread is about a women's issue, not a men's issue of oppression. No one is denying that men suffer oppression, but that is not what the topic is here.

If you don't get this you just need to be re-educated in feminism 101.

You do in fact need some help along these lines.

All feelings or thoughts contrary to feminist dogma are thought crimes and will result removal from the forum.

No one has been threatened with removal from the forum, but if you continue to disregard the rules on gender here, hopefully a mod will have some words to say.

This is all part of a free and open exchange of ideas.

Free and open within certain limits. There are all kinds of perspectives which members are barred from supporting here. The list is in the Posting Guidelines.

Men never adopt feminist ideas that they don't truly believe in to please women, and even if they did this wouldn't be an example of female power.

How would an attempt by a man at disingenuously exploiting a woman's request for respect and equality be an example of female power?

Remember, the only gender based disadvantages that exist affect women.

No one has said that, but this thread is about disadvantages that affect women.

Nevermind the fact that it's men that get drafted and die in wars for the elites.

The US has no draft, but if you think war affects only men, think again.

Gender based disadvantage is more important than economic based disadvantage.

No, but it compounds the disadvantage in ways you may not be able to understand.

A rich woman who feels unappreciated at a cocktail party is more important than poor people who can't afford healthcare, good food, or basic dignity.

No one on this thread said that except you, and you are now whining miserably.

It's ok to suggest that differences in race, culture, religion, et cetera can be used by elites to divide and conquer the poor and middle class. It's not ok to suggest that differences in gender could be used by elites in this same way-despite the fact that most people have at least one ex (or current) that drives them crazy.

It's not okay to suggest that women are not oppressed by the fact of their gender.

Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

TMI

Do I have this about right?

See above, but bear in mind that I am a man and can only answer your question from that point of view.

[Krysos]

It's ok to deny men's experience, but not women's. If you don't get this you just need to be re-educated in feminism 101. All feelings or thoughts contrary to feminist dogma are thought crimes and will result removal from the forum. This is all part of a free and open exchange of ideas. Men never adopt feminist ideas that they don't truly believe in to please women, and even if they did this wouldn't be an example of female power. Remember, the only gender based disadvantages that exist affect women. Nevermind the fact that it's men that get drafted and die in wars for the elites. Gender based disadvantage is more important than economic based disadvantage. A rich woman who feels unappreciated at a cocktail party is more important than poor people who can't afford healthcare, good food, or basic dignity. It's ok to suggest that differences in race, culture, religion, et cetera can be used by elites to divide and conquer the poor and middle class. It's not ok to suggest that differences in gender could be used by elites in this same way-despite the fact that most people have at least one ex (or current) that drives them crazy. Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

Do I have this about right?

No. You have it completely fucking wrong. 180 degrees bassackwards. Good work.

This though:

Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

is sort of funny in a way you didn't intend.

Participants have been asked repeatedly to start your own threads if you want to discuss off topic issues, like "bad things happen to men too", etc...

Why haven't you done that? I honestly just don't get it.

Pretty sure I intended it to be funny in the way you think, but I don't know. Could you explain to me why it's off topic? If someone posts an article saying that Israel did 9/11, and I write stuff saying "Hey buddy, FU, Israel didn't do 9/11, your premise is wrong," is that off topic too? I mean I'm pretty sure this whole thread is just an epic trollfest but I'd LIKE to believe otherwise.

[Krysos]

Krysos, while it's becoming more and more obvious that you are, in fact, a dick, I'll try to help you along in your baby steps towards a male understanding of the problems that have you so confused.

It's ok to deny men's experience, but not women's.

This thread is about a womens' issue, not a mens' issue of oppression. No one is denying that men suffer oppression, but that is not what the topic is here.

If you don't get this you just need to be re-educated in feminism 101.

You do in fact need some help along these lines.

All feelings or thoughts contrary to feminist dogma are thought crimes and will result removal from the forum.

No one has been threatened with removal from the forum, but if you continue to disregard the rules on gender here, hopefully a mod will have some words to say.

This is all part of a free and open exchange of ideas.

Free and open within certain limits. There are all kinds of perspectives which are barred from supporting here. The list is in the Posting Guidelines.

Men never adopt feminist ideas that they don't truly believe in to please women, and even if they did this wouldn't be an example of female power.

How would an attempt by a man at disingenuously exploiting a woman's request for respect and equality be an example of female power?

Remember, the only gender based disadvantages that exist affect women.

No one has said that, but this thread is about disadvantages that affect women.

Nevermind the fact that it's men that get drafted and die in wars for the elites.

The US has no draft, but if you think war affects only men, think again.

Gender based disadvantage is more important than economic based disadvantage.

No, but it compounds the disadvantage in ways you may not be able to understand.

A rich woman who feels unappreciated at a cocktail party is more important than poor people who can't afford healthcare, good food, or basic dignity.

No one on this thread said that except you, and you are now whining miserably.

It's ok to suggest that differences in race, culture, religion, et cetera can be used by elites to divide and conquer the poor and middle class. It's not ok to suggest that differences in gender could be used by elites in this same way-despite the fact that most people have at least one ex (or current) that drives them crazy.

It's not okay to suggest that women are not oppressed by the fact of their gender.

Any man who questions this is obviously a dick who's too much of a pussy to even get laid.

TMI

Do I have this about right?

See above, but bear in mind that I am a man and can only answer your question from that point of view.

I doubt there's a point in explaining this to you, because I think you're more interested in maintaining the status quo of the boards thinking rather than actually having a real dialogue, but the line about being a dick who's too much of a pussy to get laid was meant to describe the insults one must suffer when attempting to disagree with feminist dogma, not a reflection on my personal life. I see you're as eager as usual to drag things to a personal level though. This must be because of the confidence you have in your ideas. Anyway, I forgive you, you were probably just too busy patting yourself on the back for empowering women by telling them that have no power. Such chivalry.

[barracuda]

Take your inane perspective to a men's rights forum or start your own thread, you misguided individual. You don't even have the wherewithal to defend your own misguided statements, or apparently to even try to. You're disrupting the thread. Get lost, troll. Be gone.

[brainpanhandler]

@Krybabysos,

Really it's as simple as this:

We've been through general debates over feminism and identity politics in the Misogyny and other threads ad nauseum.

For the third time, if someone here wishes to embark on those discussions, please revive the appropriate thread. Otherwise, stay on topic as to gender, and power in communication, specifically.

Can you read? Or have you got Willow on ignore?

I'm done with you.

I hope the women on the board will not abandon the thread in disgust.