Chavez Dies.

[JackRiddler]

Venezuela should be a bustling economic powerhouse due to its oil wealth, instead what I think you will find after Chavez is that he didn't do much in terms of longer term prospects for his country.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps no country on earth should aim to be a "bustling economic powerhouse"?

It has occurred to me, but I rejected it. The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic.

Staggering false dichotomy. The choices are not between "pastoral ways" and the dead developmental end of a Dubai.

Recommended: New thread.

Going tonight to Chavez memorial march in NY, just to see who's hardcore enough to do it in the snow.

[FourthBase]

Venezuela should be a bustling economic powerhouse due to its oil wealth, instead what I think you will find after Chavez is that he didn't do much in terms of longer term prospects for his country.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps no country on earth should aim to be a "bustling economic powerhouse"?

It has occurred to me, but I rejected it. The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic.

Staggering false dichotomy. The choices are not between "pastoral ways" and the dead developmental end of a Dubai.

Recommended: New thread.

Going tonight to Chavez memorial march in NY, just to see who's hardcore enough to do it in the snow.

Yup, all that, too.

And: Especially staggering for a decade-long lurker.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Pitiful and stupid comments from PM Harper. Only he could make those comments? I don't know, but it was pretty stupid and unneeded to me.

[Julian the Apostate]

Venezuela should be a bustling economic powerhouse due to its oil wealth, instead what I think you will find after Chavez is that he didn't do much in terms of longer term prospects for his country.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps no country on earth should aim to be a "bustling economic powerhouse"?

It has occurred to me, but I rejected it. The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic.

Staggering false dichotomy. The choices are not between "pastoral ways" and the dead developmental end of a Dubai.

Recommended: New thread.

Going tonight to Chavez memorial march in NY, just to see who's hardcore enough to do it in the snow.

OK so I was being hyperbolic and a little sarcastic. I also don’t view Dubai as the ideal economy, that is not the part of the AP article that I agreed with.

Have fun!

[brainpanhandler]

Venezuela should be a bustling economic powerhouse due to its oil wealth, instead what I think you will find after Chavez is that he didn't do much in terms of longer term prospects for his country.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps no country on earth should aim to be a "bustling economic powerhouse"?

It has occurred to me, but I rejected it. The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic.

Staggering false dichotomy. The choices are not between "pastoral ways" and the dead developmental end of a Dubai.

Recommended: New thread.

Going tonight to Chavez memorial march in NY, just to see who's hardcore enough to do it in the snow.

OK so I was being hyperbolic and a little sarcastic. I also don’t view Dubai as the ideal economy, that is not the part of the AP article that I agreed with.

Have fun!

Have fun? C'mon man.

Hyperbolic? Sarcastic? Ok. But you'd be lying if you said you didn't agree with "The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic." to some lesser extent.

I'd bet the pastoral ways of our ancestors will be coming back, like it or not. Some level of equilibrium with the biosphere is inevitable (possibly even our extinction) and our pastoral ways were a lot more sustainable than the suicidal madness we are engaged in now. Part of that madness is pumping every last drop of oil out of the ground and burning it. It's one of the things I held against Chavez, although it's hard to blame him for that one.

[Julian the Apostate]

Venezuela should be a bustling economic powerhouse due to its oil wealth, instead what I think you will find after Chavez is that he didn't do much in terms of longer term prospects for his country.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps no country on earth should aim to be a "bustling economic powerhouse"?

It has occurred to me, but I rejected it. The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic.

Staggering false dichotomy. The choices are not between "pastoral ways" and the dead developmental end of a Dubai.

Recommended: New thread.

Going tonight to Chavez memorial march in NY, just to see who's hardcore enough to do it in the snow.

OK so I was being hyperbolic and a little sarcastic. I also don’t view Dubai as the ideal economy, that is not the part of the AP article that I agreed with.

Have fun!

Have fun? C'mon man.

Hyperbolic? Sarcastic? Ok. But you'd be lying if you said you didn't agree with "The pastoral ways of our ancestors are gone and not coming back. It's a quaint idea, but unrealistic." to some lesser extent.

I'd bet the pastoral ways of our ancestors will be coming back, like it or not. Some level of equilibrium with the biosphere is inevitable (possibly even our extinction) and our pastoral ways were a lot more sustainable than the suicidal madness we are engaged in now. Part of that madness is pumping every last drop of oil out of the ground and burning it. It's one of the things I held against Chavez, although it's hard to blame him for that one.

I did not mean “have fun” sarcastically, I meant exactly what I said. I like and respect Jack. Like I said, I don’t hate Chavez or his supporters. I think he did a lot of good for his country. I also think a lot of what he did was bad.

You’re probably right, as economic growth / development can’t continue indefinitely. Once that happens it’s a whole different ballgame. We’re not there yet, so I still think clean and sustainable economic development is the way to go. To the extent Chavez did that, I applaud him for it. I don’t agree with all the measures he took to do so.

[brainpanhandler]

I did not mean “have fun” sarcastically

Ok. You can understand why it might have been taken that way though, I would think. I mean at a minimum I think you meant, "I'm outa here". No?

I think he did a lot of good for his country. I also think a lot of what he did was bad.

And he did some good by doing some bad. For instance suppressing the opposition and his critics in Venezuela. God knows if I was made dictator of America tomorrow one of my first moves would be to shut down most if not all mass media outlets on some legal pretext, for instance violation of the Smith-Mundt Act.

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men. - Lord Acton

Sometimes great men are good men.

[JackRiddler]

Again, even by the measures of "development" that capitalist ideology upholds, Venezuela's performance has been far above average for the region and the world. Even more so since the end of the owner-staged "oil strike" and the state takeover of the oil company in 2004. The following also shows an incredible increase in educational levels.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the ... -in-graphs

Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs
Written by Jake Johnston and Sara Kozameh
Thursday, 07 March 2013 17:26

On Tuesday, Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez passed away after 14 years in office. Below is a series of graphs that illustrate the economic and social changes that have taken place in Venezuela during this time period.

1. Growth (Average Annual Percent)

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

This graph shows overall GDP growth as well as per-capita growth in the pre-Chávez (1986-1999) era and the Chávez presidency.

From 1999-2003, the government did not control the state oil company; in fact, it was controlled by his opponents, who used it to try to overthrow the government, including the devastating oil strike of 2002--2003. For that reason, a better measure of economic growth under the Chávez government would start after it got control over the state oil company, and therefore the economy.

Above you can see this growth both measured from 2004, and for the 1999-2012 period. We use 2004 because to start with 2003, a depressed year due to the oil strike, would exaggerate GDP growth during this period; by 2004, the economy had caught up with its pre-strike level of output. Growth after the government got control of the state oil company was much faster.

2. Public vs. Private Growth – 1999-2012 (Average Annual Percent)

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

This graph shows the growth of the private sector versus the public sector during the Chávez years.

3. Inflation: Pre-Chávez vs. Chávez Years

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

Inflation in Venezuela, consumer price index.

4. Unemployment Rate: Before and After Oil Strike

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela, INEC

After the oil strike (and the deep recession that it caused) ended in 2003, unemployment dropped drastically, following many years of increases before Chávez was elected. In 1999, when Chávez took office, unemployment was 14.5 percent; for 2011 it was 7.8 percent.

5. Poverty and Extreme Poverty Rate

Source: INEC

Poverty has decreased significantly, dropping by nearly 50 percent since the oil strike, with extreme poverty dropping by over 70 percent.

6. Gini Coefficient, 2001-2003 - Latin America

Source: Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean

The Gini coefficient, measuring income inequality, fell from 0.5 to 0.397, the lowest Gini coefficient in the region.

7. Social Spending as a Percent of GDP

Source: SISOV

Social spending doubled from 11.3 percent of GDP in 1998 to 22.8 percent of GDP in 2011.

8. Education: Net Enrollment

Source: SISOV

9. Graduates from Higher Education

Source: Ministerio del P.P. para la Educación Universitaria

10. Child Malnutrition- Age 5 and Under

Source: Instituto Nacional de Nutrición

11. Venezuelans Receiving Pensions

Source: Instituto Venezuela de los Seguros Sociales

The number of Venezuelans receiving pensions has increased from less than 500,000 in 1999 to nearly 2 million in 2011.

This more mixed set from The Guardian shows the big change for the worse: the murder rate. It's also very manipulative by starting the inflation graph in 1999.

[Julian the Apostate]

I did not mean “have fun” sarcastically

Ok. You can understand why it might have been taken that way though, I would think.

Yes, but that was not the intention.

I mean at a minimum I think you meant, "I'm outa here". No?

No

[Blue]

How about attracting top talent to the country to develop its economic base?

How condescending. Those untalented peasants need some outside (white) talent to develop their economy.

[Julian the Apostate]

Again, even by the measures of "development" that capitalist ideology upholds, Venezuela's performance has been far above average for the region and the world. Even more so since the end of the owner-staged "oil strike" and the state takeover of the oil company in 2004. The following also shows an incredible increase in educational levels.

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the ... -in-graphs

Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs
Written by Jake Johnston and Sara Kozameh
Thursday, 07 March 2013 17:26

On Tuesday, Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez passed away after 14 years in office. Below is a series of graphs that illustrate the economic and social changes that have taken place in Venezuela during this time period.

1. Growth (Average Annual Percent)

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

This graph shows overall GDP growth as well as per-capita growth in the pre-Chávez (1986-1999) era and the Chávez presidency.

From 1999-2003, the government did not control the state oil company; in fact, it was controlled by his opponents, who used it to try to overthrow the government, including the devastating oil strike of 2002--2003. For that reason, a better measure of economic growth under the Chávez government would start after it got control over the state oil company, and therefore the economy.

Above you can see this growth both measured from 2004, and for the 1999-2012 period. We use 2004 because to start with 2003, a depressed year due to the oil strike, would exaggerate GDP growth during this period; by 2004, the economy had caught up with its pre-strike level of output. Growth after the government got control of the state oil company was much faster.

2. Public vs. Private Growth – 1999-2012 (Average Annual Percent)

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

This graph shows the growth of the private sector versus the public sector during the Chávez years.

3. Inflation: Pre-Chávez vs. Chávez Years

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela

Inflation in Venezuela, consumer price index.

4. Unemployment Rate: Before and After Oil Strike

Source: Banco Central de Venezuela, INEC

After the oil strike (and the deep recession that it caused) ended in 2003, unemployment dropped drastically, following many years of increases before Chávez was elected. In 1999, when Chávez took office, unemployment was 14.5 percent; for 2011 it was 7.8 percent.

5. Poverty and Extreme Poverty Rate

Source: INEC

Poverty has decreased significantly, dropping by nearly 50 percent since the oil strike, with extreme poverty dropping by over 70 percent.

6. Gini Coefficient, 2001-2003 - Latin America

Source: Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean

The Gini coefficient, measuring income inequality, fell from 0.5 to 0.397, the lowest Gini coefficient in the region.

7. Social Spending as a Percent of GDP

Source: SISOV

Social spending doubled from 11.3 percent of GDP in 1998 to 22.8 percent of GDP in 2011.

8. Education: Net Enrollment

Source: SISOV

9. Graduates from Higher Education

Source: Ministerio del P.P. para la Educación Universitaria

10. Child Malnutrition- Age 5 and Under

Source: Instituto Nacional de Nutrición

11. Venezuelans Receiving Pensions

Source: Instituto Venezuela de los Seguros Sociales

The number of Venezuelans receiving pensions has increased from less than 500,000 in 1999 to nearly 2 million in 2011.

This more mixed set from The Guardian shows the big change for the worse: the murder rate. It's also very manipulative by starting the inflation graph in 1999.

Interesting graphs, thanks. Perhaps I was mistaken in my assessment of him.

[Julian the Apostate]

How about attracting top talent to the country to develop its economic base?

How condescending. Those untalented peasants need some outside (white) talent to develop their economy.

No it isn't. We talk about attracting talent to the US all the time and it is not condescending.

[Blue]

Yes it is. H-1B Visas for engineers from India are very condescending to the American engineers. Sounds like a right wing talking point - Americans aren't smart enough to fill the really good jobs and too lazy to do the hard ones.

[Julian the Apostate]

H-1B Visas for engineers from India are very condescending to the American engineers.

So you are against visas because they hurt american engineers feelings?

Do you think the program should be ended? If so why?

[JackRiddler]

Unlikely anyone will see this and go in the next three hours, but:

http://www.facebook.com/events/17211951 ... l_activity

Friday

6:30pm

1199SEIU New York City 310 West 43rd Street New York, NY 10036 auditorium

Those who die for life can not be called dead

A Celebration and procession for the life of our comrade Hugo Chávez extraordinary human and revolutionary. Your energy, love and example will not be forgotten.

The revolution will continue until there is liberation for all.

QUE VIVA CHAVEZ!!

QUE VIVA LA REVOLUCION BOLIVARIANA!! NI UN PASO ATRAS!!

Join us and spread the word, show your solidarity and support in memory of President Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution

Si le temiste a su presencia cuando vivo, Cuando Muerto ahora sentiras el significado de un Alma que brota en millones! Maferefun Obatala.

Bring candles will walk to the statue of the Liberator Simon Bolivar in Central Park.

Traigan velas que caminaremos hasta la estatua del libertador Simon Bolivar en Parque Central.