Fascists are the Tools of the State

[semper occultus]

....I have to confess to not having read this thread but seeing Gladio mentioned wondered what your take would be on the following factors

.....that late 1960's - early 1970's terrorism came almost entirely from the Left....both the organic & the pseudo-groups....

.....that I also would speculate that a "next generation" - post- Jihad terrorist threat is just as likely to be disseminated through novel vectors such as groups purporting to be acting in the cause of "animal-rights" ( e.g useful false-flag for hitting a few Chinese targets - ".....bastards....killing all those elephants, rhinos & tigers...." ) or "environmentalism" ...."...ooooh look...violent nutters being nasty to all those global energy companies & corporations ..."..

i.e. ideological kinship aside we're all "tools of the state..."

[American Dream]

We don't really have a problem, especially now I've ascertained where you're coming from and that this doesn't clash markedly with my own interests.

I've seen the very rancourous and destructive exchanges you've had with other forum members and, even though you may wish this with me, it's not going to happen, the potential for that passed a while back. Our disagreements are going to remain low key.

I'm sure you're not so impaired as to have forgotten that it was you who stalked me page after page... after page, when I didn't want to engage with you at all.

Finally, I relented- and you haven't changed your slippery behavior before or after, really.

So do you believe in these tortured statements that you make?

Looking at this thread, I rather doubt it.

[American Dream]

....I have to confess to not having read this thread but seeing Gladio mentioned wondered what your take would be on the following factors

.....that late 1960's - early 1970's terrorism came almost entirely from the Left....both the organic & the pseudo-groups....

.....that I also would speculate that a "next generation" - post- Jihad terrorist threat is just as likely to be disseminated through novel vectors such as groups purporting to be acting in the cause of "animal-rights" ( e.g useful false-flag for hitting a few Chinese targets - ".....bastards....killing all those elephants, rhinos & tigers...." ) or "environmentalism" ...."...ooooh look...violent nutters being nasty to all those global energy companies & corporations ..."..

i.e. ideological kinship aside we're all "tools of the state..."

As far as GLADIO and the "terrorist' acts of the 60's and 70's there is lots of evidence implicating the Deep State and/or its pet fascists, say with the Brigate Rosse (Italian Red Brigades). Also true that the Deep State seems to have infiltrated and/or controlled the Angry Brigade, elements of the IRA, the SLA, iterations of the German RAF, etc.

Current activity which I know of surely includes anarcho-insurrectionary tendencies (ALF/ELF types) as well as neo-fascists.

These days sketchy people and groups from the far Right loom much larger than they did in the 60's/70's (as far as the public picture goes)- where and how the Deep State figures in is a subject for ongoing investigation.

[jakell]

....I have to confess to not having read this thread but seeing Gladio mentioned wondered what your take would be on the following factors

.....that late 1960's - early 1970's terrorism came almost entirely from the Left....both the organic & the pseudo-groups....

.....that I also would speculate that a "next generation" - post- Jihad terrorist threat is just as likely to be disseminated through novel vectors such as groups purporting to be acting in the cause of "animal-rights" ( e.g useful false-flag for hitting a few Chinese targets - ".....bastards....killing all those elephants, rhinos & tigers...." ) or "environmentalism" ...."...ooooh look...violent nutters being nasty to all those global energy companies & corporations ..."..

i.e. ideological kinship aside we're all "tools of the state..."

Another untapped, but emotive angle is that coming from a fundamentalist Christian direction, especially if the suicide taboo is overcome. Looking at Fred Phelps people and others, this doesn't seem unthinkable.

[smiths]

i doesnt matter whether you start off protesting about animal rights or Islamic rights,

the real divergence comes upon the detonation

that being, whether you have been given access to C4 and military training, or whether you've made a pressure cooker bomb at home with no help

mass acts of state transforming terrorism or state controlling terrorism require significant military assistance

The Red Brigades might have thought they were acting for the left, but one way or another, the right supplied the bombs for its own highly successful purpose.
The aim was always to make sure Italy didn't go Communist, and guess what, it didnt

[American Dream]

i doesnt matter whether you start off protesting about animal rights or Islamic rights,

the real divergence comes upon the detonation

that being, whether you have been given access to C4 and military training, or whether you've made a pressure cooker bomb at home with no help

mass acts of state transforming terrorism or state controlling terrorism require significant military assistance

The Red Brigades might have thought they were acting for the left, but one way or another, the right supplied the bombs for its own highly successful purpose.
The aim was always to make sure Italy didn't go Communist, and guess what, it didnt

Very true, and you can't blow up a social relationship, anyway.

[Sounder]

semper occultis wrote…

i.e. ideological kinship aside we're all "tools of the state..."

jakell wrote…
Another untapped, but emotive angle is that coming from a fundamentalist Christian direction, especially if the suicide taboo is overcome. Looking at Fred Phelps people and others, this doesn't seem unthinkable.

It would seem that any emotive angle is prone to being ‘turned’ and used for objectives different than the original impulse.

Take Rummies timing on giving Boyken that third star. Rumsfeld doesn’t give a shit about religion or those kind of naive fools, but he sure knows an opportunity to ‘pump the dichotomy’ when he sees one.

This allows the oligarchs to hide in plain site.

[semper occultus]

......whose military though....both left wing & right wing wanna-be terrorists were rubbing shoulders in the 70's in Lebanese guerilla training camps...IRA men were going free-lance training anyone with a fistfull of dollars.....and despite the attempts of Claire Sterling to crap in the punch bowl Marcus Wolf must have had some interest ...if he didn't he should have been sacked for incompetence....

...ever heard of Odfried Hepp...?

Odfried Hepp

Escape with the help of the GDR State Security

Due to the high pressure manhunt by Interpol popped Hepp for some time after in the GDR under. With the help of the Ministry of State Security , which was formerly also activists of the radical left-wing RAF had hidden in East Germany, succeeded Hepp, to remain undetected until 1984. So the Stasi got him, among other things the wrong West German passport. [3] In return, the Stasi Hepp reported on his knowledge of the extreme right of the Federal Republic. After his escape sat through Europe and the Middle East continues. There he came in contact with, among others, the Palestinian terrorist group PLF for which he can create arms caches in Central Europe after 1984 on their behalf by Marseille pulled, should participate in building a Western European PLF group.

[American Dream]

......whose military though....both left wing & right wing wanna-be terrorists were rubbing shoulders in the 70's in Lebanese guerilla training camps...IRA men were going free-lance training anyone with a fistfull of dollars.....and despite the attempts of Claire Sterling to crap in the punch bowl Marcus Wolf must have had some interest ...if he didn't he should have been sacked for incompetence....

...ever heard of Odfried Hepp...?

Odfried Hepp

Escape with the help of the GDR State Security

Due to the high pressure manhunt by Interpol popped Hepp for some time after in the GDR under. With the help of the Ministry of State Security , which was formerly also activists of the radical left-wing RAF had hidden in East Germany, succeeded Hepp, to remain undetected until 1984. So the Stasi got him, among other things the wrong West German passport. [3] In return, the Stasi Hepp reported on his knowledge of the extreme right of the Federal Republic. After his escape sat through Europe and the Middle East continues. There he came in contact with, among others, the Palestinian terrorist group PLF for which he can create arms caches in Central Europe after 1984 on their behalf by Marseille pulled, should participate in building a Western European PLF group.

Great points- and I will readily admit to being underinformed about covert ops by the Stasi, KGB and other such state forces- of which there surely must have been many... That said, I do see NATO/CIA/DEA/DIA/Mossad skullduggery behind much of the Lebanese/Palestinian/RAF/Carlos the Jackal/Japanese Red Army type activity of that time: Nidal, Salameh, Bakaa Valley drug/guerilla lords, IRA fighters and drug dealers etc. So many of the dots connect- up to and including the hash smoking, acid popping hippie mafias of the time...

[semper occultus]

...its indeed a fascinating milieu / snake pit....particualrly in that late 60's early 70's era.....also drawing in these bizarre fusion figures like Jaques Verges & Francois Genoud...the Middle East is definielty a crucible where hard ideological forms start to melt down though....Dave Emory's good on this ofcourse...Nasserite - Arab (national) socialism >> the ex Nazi disapora ( the ones that didn;t go to S America - Johan von Leers / Brunner etc ) , movements fighting anti-Western-imperialism, PLO / anti-Israelism, the National Front political soldiers going to Libya to scrounge funds & distributing copies of Gadaffi's Green Book...something in there for every brand of fanatic to get involved......I always assumed that the Jihadist wing Hamas etc was cooked up by the Western powers to undermine the secular / (national) socialist tendency in the region...Emory ofcourse sees the Muslim Brotherhood as NSDAP central

....I have a personal interest....when I was a kid we got home from holiday to find we had just got out before this : ( we stuck to Devon after that )....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/5/newsid_4533000/4533763.stm

1973: Athens attack leaves three dead
Three people have been killed and 55 have been wounded after two Arab gunmen opened fire and threw grenades into a crowded passenger lounge at Athens airport.
The gunmen took about 35 of the passengers hostage and held them at gunpoint for more than two hours before finally surrendering to police.

There were about 1,500 people packed into the transit hall when the first grenades were thrown, sparking panic among the crowd.

As chandeliers fell from the ceiling, the guerrillas, who say they belong to the Palestinian militant group Black September, opened fire with sub-machine guns shooting indiscriminately into the crowd.

[jakell]

...its indeed a fascinating milieu / snake pit....particualrly in that late 60's early 70's era.....also drawing in these bizarre fusion figures like Jaques Verges & Francois Genoud...the Middle East is definielty a crucible where hard ideological forms start to melt down though....Dave Emory's good on this ofcourse...Nasserite - Arab (national) socialism >> the ex Nazi disapora ( the ones that didn;t go to S America - Johan von Leers / Brunner etc ) , movements fighting anti-Western-imperialism, PLO / anti-Israelism, the National Front political soldiers going to Libya to scrounge funds & distributing copies of Gadaffi's Green Book...something in there for every brand of fanatic to get involved......I always assumed that the Jihadist wing Hamas etc was cooked up by the Western powers to undermine the secular / (national) socialist tendency in the region...Emory ofcourse sees the Muslim Brotherhood as NSDAP central

....I have a personal interest....when I was a kid we got home from holiday to find we had just got out before this : ( we stuck to Devon after that )....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/5/newsid_4533000/4533763.stm

1973: Athens attack leaves three dead
Three people have been killed and 55 have been wounded after two Arab gunmen opened fire and threw grenades into a crowded passenger lounge at Athens airport.
The gunmen took about 35 of the passengers hostage and held them at gunpoint for more than two hours before finally surrendering to police.

There were about 1,500 people packed into the transit hall when the first grenades were thrown, sparking panic among the crowd.

As chandeliers fell from the ceiling, the guerrillas, who say they belong to the Palestinian militant group Black September, opened fire with sub-machine guns shooting indiscriminately into the crowd.

Indeed, which is why I often repeat my observation that using the lens of a particular ideology is not a good way to understand the bigger pictures involved here. an issue outlined in this thread:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37774

[American Dream]

...its indeed a fascinating milieu / snake pit....particualrly in that late 60's early 70's era.....also drawing in these bizarre fusion figures like Jaques Verges & Francois Genoud...the Middle East is definielty a crucible where hard ideological forms start to melt down though....Dave Emory's good on this ofcourse...Nasserite - Arab (national) socialism >> the ex Nazi disapora ( the ones that didn;t go to S America - Johan von Leers / Brunner etc ) , movements fighting anti-Western-imperialism, PLO / anti-Israelism, the National Front political soldiers going to Libya to scrounge funds & distributing copies of Gadaffi's Green Book...something in there for every brand of fanatic to get involved......I always assumed that the Jihadist wing Hamas etc was cooked up by the Western powers to undermine the secular / (national) socialist tendency in the region...Emory ofcourse sees the Muslim Brotherhood as NSDAP central

....I have a personal interest....when I was a kid we got home from holiday to find we had just got out before this : ( we stuck to Devon after that )....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/5/newsid_4533000/4533763.stm

1973: Athens attack leaves three dead
Three people have been killed and 55 have been wounded after two Arab gunmen opened fire and threw grenades into a crowded passenger lounge at Athens airport.
The gunmen took about 35 of the passengers hostage and held them at gunpoint for more than two hours before finally surrendering to police.

There were about 1,500 people packed into the transit hall when the first grenades were thrown, sparking panic among the crowd.

As chandeliers fell from the ceiling, the guerrillas, who say they belong to the Palestinian militant group Black September, opened fire with sub-machine guns shooting indiscriminately into the crowd.

Thanks for the many reminders- and also people/things I didn't really recall at all, such as Genoud, von Leers, and Brunner. Emory comes up frequently in my searches, I find him very useful but especially as taken with a grain of salt or two. Mae Brussel's work on the Nazi role in various conspiaicies was important- and Emory has taken that ball and run with it, to the edge of the field. That said, I think there is always need for caution when veering towards any grand unified theory of world conspiracy. The Muslim Brothers and ODESSA surely have a place at the table, but I don't think it's all Nazis and "Islamo-fascists" by any means. Interestingly enough, that kind of totalistic model would simply be a polarity switch from the world jewish conspiracy view promoted by nazis and anti-Semitic types- neither fully reaches the big picture, which includes selected facts and propositions from both models but surely goes beyond them, too...

So yes, extreme zealots, and amoral adventurers of all stripes are very useful indeed to the powers that be- especially as they are lacking in discrimination, inclined to extreme dogmatism, haters/dehumanizers of a certain class of people etc. Doing the Man's dirty work can also bring a kind of power for those who are cunning, too. Others get played and wind up cannon fodder in the "War on Terror", as was probably the case for some who trusted in Gadaffi's Libya, certain Palestinian factions (PFLP-GC etc.), the radical Right, the radical Left, etc.

So yes, out and out fascists surely have an important role to play for the ptb, but if The System has shown us anything at all, it has demonstrated that it is endlessly adaptable- able to incorporate a wide variety of actors, including dissidents of all stripes..

[jakell]

Looks like another nod towards the all-encompassing conspiracy then. The singular 'it' emerges once again.

[semper occultus]

I quite like my analogy.....jaques verges is an alloy.!!
.....not to mention George Galloway and his Sadam Hussein love ins.....

[jakell]

I quite like my analogy.....jaques verges is an alloy.!!
.....not to mention George Galloway and his Sadam Hussein love ins.....

I'll have to look him up now you've said this

Galloway is an odd fish though. I'd never really heard of the guy until he started courting Islam so enthusiastically. It's almost like he built his political career on this alone.