Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

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Who or what was Jesus Christ to you?

A physical man and the Son of God
5
14%
A physical man, but a great teacher
4
11%
A physical man, and unworthy of following
1
3%
A myth to be appreciated and studied
12
33%
A myth that should be ignored
3
8%
Other
11
31%
 
Total votes : 36

Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Elihu » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:56 pm

EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14, 15) Unto the serpent.—As the serpent had tempted our first parents purposely and consciously in order to lead them into sin, he stood there without excuse, and received a threefold penalty. The outward form of the condemnation is made suitable to the shape which the tempter had assumed; but the true force and meaning, especially in the last and most intense portion of the sentence, belong, not to the animal, but to Satan himself. The serpent is but the type: diabolic agency the reality. First, therefore, the serpent is condemned to crawl. As he is pronounced to be “cursed above (or rather, among) all cattle”—that is, the tame animals subjected to man’s service—and also “among all beasts of the field”—that is, the wild animals, but a term not applicable to reptiles—it has been supposed that the serpent was originally erect and beautiful, and that Adam had even tamed serpents, and had them in his household. But such a transformation belongs to the region of fable, and the meaning is that henceforward the serpent’s crawling motion is to be to it a mark of disgrace, and to Satan a sign of meanness and contempt. He won the victory over our guileless first parents, and still he winds in and out among men, ever bringing degradation with him, and ever sinking with his victims into deeper abysses of shame and infamy. Yet, even so, perpetually he suffers defeat, and has, secondly, to “lick the dust,” because his mean devices lead, as in this place, only to the manifestation of God’s glory. In the Paradise Lost Milton has made Satan a hero, though fallen; really he is a despicable and mean-spirited foe, whose strength lies in man’s moral feebleness. Finally, there is perpetual enmity between the serpent and man. The adder in the path bites man’s heel, and is crushed beneath his tramp. It has been noticed that in spite of the beauty and gracefulness of many of the species, man’s loathing of them is innate; while in hot countries they are his great enemy, the deaths in India, for instance, from snake-bites being many times more than those caused by the carnivora.
Her seed . . . shall bruise thy head.—We have here the sum of the whole matter, and the rest of the Bible does but explain the nature of this struggle, the persons who wage it, and the manner and consequences of the victory. Here, too, we learn the end and purpose for which the narrative is cast in its present form. It pictures to us man in a close and loving relation, not to an abstract deity, but to a personal and covenant Jehovah. This Being with tender care plants for him a garden, gathers into it whatever is most rare and beautiful in vegetation, and, having given it to him for his home, even deigns at eventide to walk with him there. In the care of this garden He provides for Adam pleasant employment, and watches the development of his intellect with such interest as a father feels in the mental growth of his child. Day by day He brings new animals within his view; and when, after studying their habits, he gives them names, the Deity shares man’s tranquil enjoyment. And when he still feels a void, and needs a companion who can hold with him rational discourse, Jehovah elaborately fashions for him, out of his own self, a second being, whose presence satisfies all his longings. Meanwhile, in accordance with the universal law that hand in hand with free-will goes responsibility, an easy and simple trial is provided for man’s obedience. He fails, and henceforward he must wage a sterner conflict, and attain to victory only by effort and suffering. In this struggle man is finally to prevail, but not unscathed. And his triumph is to be gained not by mere human strength, but by the coming of One who is “the Woman’s Seed;” and round this promised Deliverer the rest of Scripture groups itself. Leave out these words, and all the inspired teaching which follows would be an ever-widening river without a fountain-head. But necessarily with the fall came the promise of restoration. Grace is no after-thought, but enters the world side by side with sin. Upon this foundation the rest of Holy Scripture is built, till revelation at last reaches its corner-stone in Christ. The outward form of the narrative affords endless subjects for curious discussion; its inner meaning and true object being to lay the broad basis of all future revealed truth.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:48 am

I always thought that snakes got a bad rap. Absolutely, mankind's fear of them is an old fear, one bred into is over tens of thousands of years, but I would argue that we see it mostly in Abrahamic places where the serpent is equated as the Devil.

Despite the deadliness of cobras, don't Indians and the Hindu culture actually revere them? What about Native Americans from the American West, where rattlesnakes prosper? I don't recall any Native American folklore about the wickedness of serpents. The Mayan had a winged serpent that was a celestial figure, rather than one of the underworld.

Speaking of the underworld, it's a similar phenomenon of how cultures with underground versions of an afterlife are geographic areas with a lot of caverns, chasms, and geological activity. I believe the Christian version of a fiery hell had a lot to do with the geology of the Meditteranean.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby divideandconquer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:31 pm

Douglas Dietrich on Christianity and the history of the perversionof it, especially in dumbed-down, Satanic America. Anyway, very provocative, slightly insane and very interesting.

Some tidbits:

Many Christians today remain ignorant of the fact that early Christians came long before Christ. Christianity started in China (I posted about this--3 wisemen-- in another thread. He goes into more depth in this interview).

When Christianity emerged in the "west" (Middle East or southwest Asia) -- when God in the form of Christ appeared on earth-- Christians fell into two major groups: those obsessed with gnosis (knowledge or personal relationship with divinity) and those obsessed with pistis (faith) which is the foundation of the church, spiritual constabularies, necessary for the preservation and archive, not to mention, spiritual doctrine which prevents anarchy (cults) in the most negative sense.

Byzantine orthodoxy is the earliest form of the church. Constantinople combined Christianity with the Roman military and an empire was born as a barrier or defense against heathendom. A formalization, a dogmatization of belief. In other words, Christianity added spirituality to this empire, which must run on laws, and rituals in the Confucian (religion without a god/politics) sense.

On American Christianity

In America there is an incredible infanitlism--not childlike, infantile (crapping pants and expecting someone to change them and sucking on teething rings)-- because America, one of the youngest, if not thee youngest cultures in the world thinks in absolutes. The overwhelming majority of Americans function at this level.

Americans conflate Christianity with the god of Abraham, a tribal god.

They conflate Christianity with the founding fathers who were not Christian, but deists (more a cosmology than spirituality and Freemasons, who believed God created a clockwork (mechanical) universe and left it untended, essentially that God is dead. Very convenient for men who could assume the throne themselves, which, in a way, they did. They were ideologically inspired by Issac Newton, a brilliant nobleman, an alchemist, a scientist, a man who bridged the gap between "magic" and "science", which are two different philosophies, or paradigms, but turned into a religion.

    Thomas Jefferson who was working his way to creating octoroons by screwing all his slaves generationally for "scientific" reasons. He was trying to get to eight generations

    Benjamin Franklin, the inspiration for Mary Shelley's Frankenstein's doctor, who was basically a serial killer who, after sewing his victims back up after experimenting, tried to reanimate his them with electricity.

    George Washington was a mass murderer.
As we enter the third millennium of the Christian calendar, Americans are under the impression that Christianity is diminishing in the world. Not true. Christianity is exploding in the rest of the world but Americans are so isolated in a totalitarian media machine created by the Luciferian military junta which takes it diabolism strait from the founding fathers. Secular movements--Libertarianism, feminism, environmentalism, etc.-- are axiomatic to Americans ,which are mostly based on information sanitization. By 2050, only one in five Christians will be non-Latino white. In other words, in the west, the axioms of Christianity have been abandoned for progressive, political and social concerns.

The US military fights under the realm of and under the orders of antigods.

Michael Aquino, the officially recognized Satanic chaplain of all branches of US armed forces, wrote the chaplain's handbook for the entire US armed services. Why? The military high command worships antigods or Kings of Edom, referenced by Lovecraft, who at one time converted to Islam and studied the Koran where he learned about these antigods (Herod), the same who killed Christ. All rabbis, priests, ministers are ordered to stand down whenever a Satanic chaplain showed up and that is the purpose of the Chaplain's handbook so his men can summon these antigods on the field of battle. In his last active duty to the US, Aquino summoned these anti-gods in Iraq

Only a healthy understanding of Christianity will separate you from the Satanism of your founding fathers and this cursed republic. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto Christ what is the Lord's" That is how you resist. You can also lobby for the dismantling of the US military...good luck with that.

Peter Levenda, under direct orders of Michael Aquino, is a major forger of the boobytrap book, The Necronomicon, to misinform and destroy its users.

While Christianity and Islam are expanding, we're entering a new dark age of religious warfare encouraged by western interests. The Islamic threat is generated by the U.S. (ISIS). No matter what you believe, you must get a grip on what these cultures believe.

Americans are not investing in the education of their young to carry on a complex civilization. They are eliminating important skills such as cursive writing, numeracy, etc, which develop parts of the mind that you need to process thought.



Oh, and Hillary won the election by a vast landslide, won more votes than any other president in recorded history with the exception of Obama. Trump has refused to read presidential security briefings, but Mike Pence does read them. We will not know who the president is until he takes office.
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby minime » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:20 pm

minime » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:35 am wrote:
All of us have a little bit of God in us, don't we?




Our story is told through the eyes of a Roman tribune, Autochlus Antonius, an ordinary man, skeptical at first, but who comes to a grudging respect for this swell figure from the East.


It's a swell story.


It's all in the hips, the lips, and the eyes and the thighs.


I want to know if the theological elements of the story are up to snuff.

As for the religious aspect, does the depiction of Christ Jesus cut the mustard?
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:26 pm

divideandconquer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:31 pm wrote:Peter Levenda, under direct orders of Michael Aquino, is a major forger of the boobytrap book, The Necronomicon, to misinform and destroy its users.


I'd like to see any kind of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, for this claim.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby dada » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:28 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:26 pm wrote:
divideandconquer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:31 pm wrote:Peter Levenda, under direct orders of Michael Aquino, is a major forger of the boobytrap book, The Necronomicon, to misinform and destroy its users.


I'd like to see any kind of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, for this claim.


I found this email in the secret dark wikileaks database. Don't ask why I have access, you don't want to know.

damningevidence.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:53 pm

:lol:

Incredible!
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby norton ash » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:19 pm

Rejoice, sayeth the Republicans, for a new King is born.

WASHINGTON - Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Reince Priebus and Co-Chair Sharon Day released the following statement celebrating Christmas:

“Merry Christmas to all! Over two millennia ago, a new hope was born into the world, a Savior who would offer the promise of salvation to all mankind. Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King. We hope Americans celebrating Christmas today will enjoy a day of festivities and a renewed closeness with family and friends.


https://gop.com/rnc-message-celebrating-christmas-2016/

This is blasphemous on so many levels.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:17 am

My favourite writings about Jesus are from the little book called
JESUS THE SON OF MAN
His words and His deeds as told and recorded by those who knew Him
by Kahlil Gibran

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301451h.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahlil_Gibran

He writes from the point of view of many different people. It is a little like being given the individual descriptions of the elephant by the Six Blind Men, and weaving the totality oneself...

RUMANOUS
A GREEK POET

Jesus the Poet

He was a poet. He saw for our eyes and heard for our ears, and our silent words were upon His lips; and His fingers touched what we could not feel.

Out of His heart there flew countless singing birds to the north and to the south, and the little flowers on the hill-sides stayed His steps towards the heavens.

Oftentimes I have seen Him bending down to touch the blades of grass. And in my heart I have heard Him say: “Little green things, you shall be with me in my kingdom, even as the oaks of Besan, and the cedars of Lebanon.”

He loved all things of loveliness, the shy faces of children, and the myrrh and frankincense from the south.

He loved a pomegranate or a cup of wine given Him in kindness; it mattered not whether it was offered by a stranger in the inn or by a rich host.

And He loved the almond blossoms. I have seen Him gathering them into His hands and covering His face with the petals, as though He would embrace with His love all the trees in the world.

He knew the sea and the heavens; and He spoke of pearls which have light that is not of this light, and of stars that are beyond our night.

He knew the mountains as eagles know them, and the valleys as they are known by the brooks and the streams. And there was a desert in His silence and a garden in His speech.

Aye, He was a poet whose heart dwelt in a bower beyond the heights, and His songs though sung for our ears, were sung for other ears also, and to men in another land where life is for ever young and time is always dawn.

Once I too deemed myself a poet, but when I stood before Him in Bethany, I knew what it is to hold an instrument with but a single string before one who commands all instruments. For in His voice there was the laughter of thunder and the tears of rain, and the joyous dancing of trees in the wind.

And since I have known that my lyre has but one string, and that my voice weaves neither the memories of yesterday nor the hopes of tomorrow, I have put aside my lyre and I shall keep silence. But always at twilight I shall hearken, and I shall listen to the Poet who is the sovereign of all poets.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:47 am

norton ash » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:19 pm wrote:Rejoice, sayeth the Republicans, for a new King is born.

WASHINGTON - Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Reince Priebus and Co-Chair Sharon Day released the following statement celebrating Christmas:

“Merry Christmas to all! Over two millennia ago, a new hope was born into the world, a Savior who would offer the promise of salvation to all mankind. Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King. We hope Americans celebrating Christmas today will enjoy a day of festivities and a renewed closeness with family and friends.


https://gop.com/rnc-message-celebrating-christmas-2016/

This is blasphemous on so many levels.


Just wow. I know Democrats are crazy on many levels, but the GOP has it's own level. Jesus help us (the real Jesus lol)!

@ divideandconquer, I think Dietrich is really interesting. I'd like to see his sources or see where more of that information can be researched. He's a great storyteller, but it would help to have the same story backed-up by other scholars. Thank you for posting, though! Always an interesting read.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby divideandconquer » Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:41 am

Novem5er » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:47 am wrote:
norton ash » Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:19 pm wrote:Rejoice, sayeth the Republicans, for a new King is born.

WASHINGTON - Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Reince Priebus and Co-Chair Sharon Day released the following statement celebrating Christmas:

“Merry Christmas to all! Over two millennia ago, a new hope was born into the world, a Savior who would offer the promise of salvation to all mankind. Just as the three wise men did on that night, this Christmas heralds a time to celebrate the good news of a new King. We hope Americans celebrating Christmas today will enjoy a day of festivities and a renewed closeness with family and friends.


https://gop.com/rnc-message-celebrating-christmas-2016/

This is blasphemous on so many levels.


Just wow. I know Democrats are crazy on many levels, but the GOP has it's own level. Jesus help us (the real Jesus lol)!

@ divideandconquer, I think Dietrich is really interesting. I'd like to see his sources or see where more of that information can be researched. He's a great storyteller, but it would help to have the same story backed-up by other scholars. Thank you for posting, though! Always an interesting read.


If nothing else, he provides food for thought, and I enjoy researching some of his information. However, I remain skeptical and I certainly do not agree with or believe everything he says. Once again, it's a process of sifting through the chaff...

What makes me very suspicious is the way he sometimes pushes the incompetence meme as he did with the vaccine agenda because it shifts thought patterns away from identifying nefarious intent, which the ruling elite have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Government is "so inefficient"..."so stupid"..."so whatever"....This meme only solidifies and maintains their power base.

Here's the thing. Why would anyone employ someone like him--a walking talking computer-- to shred documents? Wouldn't it make more sense to hire, I don't know, an illiterate? Someone who can't read or speak the language?
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:56 pm

Yeah, a lot of his background doesn't completely make sense, but he's so enthusiastic in telling it that I want to listen :)

I liked his story about the Chinese magi and he seems to lean towards Christian gnosticism, which is something I've been looking into for a while. I'm not convinced that the entire US government or military is run by practicing Satanists, but again it makes a good story.

However, something I do kind of agree with is that this world is basically anti-Christian, in the sense that the modern world is anti-spiritual. The more anyone looks into deep spiritual practice, the more I think we see how modern life is antithetical to spiritual existence: capitalism, consumerism, imperialism, etc. However, that doesn't mean that everything modern is bad. He called out feminism and environmentalism, etc, as problems that are anti-spiritual and I don't think this is the case at all. Sure, both of those movements may have been co-opted by special interests, but I think the root of them is very divine.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby divideandconquer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:08 am

Novem5er » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:56 pm wrote:Yeah, a lot of his background doesn't completely make sense, but he's so enthusiastic in telling it that I want to listen :)

I liked his story about the Chinese magi and he seems to lean towards Christian gnosticism, which is something I've been looking into for a while. I'm not convinced that the entire US government or military is run by practicing Satanists, but again it makes a good story.

However, something I do kind of agree with is that this world is basically anti-Christian, in the sense that the modern world is anti-spiritual. The more anyone looks into deep spiritual practice, the more I think we see how modern life is antithetical to spiritual existence: capitalism, consumerism, imperialism, etc. However, that doesn't mean that everything modern is bad. He called out feminism and environmentalism, etc, as problems that are anti-spiritual and I don't think this is the case at all. Sure, both of those movements may have been co-opted by special interests, but I think the root of them is very divine.


Well, there's no doubt that, especially today, the world values everything that Christ detests, that which is antithetical to what Christ preached and lived. People can claim they are Christian but they can't hide what they truly value: wealth, power, pleasure, revenge, fame, vanity and status, etc. So it's no surprise that prosperity theology is catching on like wild fire across the US, and that our president-elect is someone who subscribes to this whatever you want to call it: “name it and claim it” gospel, the “blab it and grab it” gospel, the “health and wealth” gospel, the “prosperity gospel,” and “positive confession theology.” Trump may not be thee Antichrist, but he is anti Christian and so are most of his followers whether they know it or not.

How can anyone truly believe that teachers and preachers of the prosperity gospel who encourage their followers to pray for and even demand material flourishing from God are teaching Christianity? When material flourishing is much more likely to follow a pact with His adversary. Saints and true followers of Christ have always followed His lead by sacrificing, suffering and surrendering

But God is nothing more than an investment scheme. Whereas Jesus taught his disciples to “give, hoping for nothing in return” (Luke 10:35), prosperity theologians teach their disciples to give because they will get a great return. Give $10 and receive $1,000; give $1,000 and receive $100,000....

“When we pray, believing that we have already received what we are praying, God has no choice but to make our prayers come to pass. . . . It is a key to getting results as a Christian.”
'I see clearly that man in this world deceives himself by admiring and esteeming things which are not, and neither sees nor esteems the things which are.' — St. Catherine of Genoa
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:07 pm

.
Would that it were so simple.
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Re: Jesus Christ: a Rigorous Discussion (or not)

Postby Novem5er » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:55 pm

I'm am NOT a fan of the prosperity gospel. Going back to the very beginning, I'd wager that most Christians were among the poorest people on the planet. I'm talking medieval peasants and modern day citizens of developing nations. If it's God's intention that every follower be happy, healthy, and wealthy, then where was he for the last 2,000 years? Where is he now in most places on this planet? No, it's a uniquely American vision, one that motivates the poor and justifies the middle class and rich.

I have some in-laws that go to a mega church with 10,000s in attendance every week. Of course, it's a prosperity message, although much of it is still centered on personal spiritual growth (they go hand in hand), and the pastor is, of course, a multi-millionaire.

Now, even at my own ultra-liberal hippy church, some of this prosperity gospel seeps in and I wince every time. It's a small congregation, of maybe 150 weekly people, and most of them are elderly. The prosperity part that I hear there, almost weekly, is that positive prayer and faith can heal all sickness. Um, I don't get it because the congregation is so old that a lot of them are sick and one of them dies every few months from being old, aka, some ailment that takes its final toll.

Now, I still like my church a lot and it is not centered on promising everyone eternal health and wealth; it just creeps into the general message of personal peace.
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