Fuck Ron Paul

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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:21 pm

OMG. You could well be right.

But I guess that I was thinking more along the lines of "training and/or logistical support and services in connection with some longstanding or permanent mission requirement of Air Force Intelligence or another, who knows what?"

Because there really aren't a whole lot of other possibilities that make sense in conjunction with his having done that much world-travel in only two years at that age and in that era. He must have either been providing a specialized service of some kind or being trained for one. The latter would be a much more conspiracist scenario than the former, though, Because they don't usually make that kind of investment in someone who's not going to be around long enough to pay dividends. So either some kind of explanation (covert/classified assignment; favoritism; etcetera) would be called for or...I don't know. It kind of calls for an explanation either way, actually.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby publius » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:16 pm

Ron Paul is a Theocrat. That is fairly anti-State.

The Christian Post > Politics|Fri, Jan. 06 2012 04:15 PM EDT
Is Ron Paul a Closet Theocrat?
By Napp Nazworth | Christian Post Reporter

Does presidential candidate Ron Paul want to use government to impose Old Testament laws on the nation? As incredible as it sounds, journalist Michelle Goldberg makes that claim in an article for The Daily Beast.

Goldberg's assertion is based upon Paul's supposed ties to devotees of Christian Reconstructionism. Christian Reconstructionists, such as R. J. Rushdoony and Gary North, believe that it is the duty of Christians to take control of their government and impose Old Testament law.

Christian Reconstructionism has always been a fringe group and is not taken seriously by mainstream Christians. Goldberg admits this as well, but continues to argue that several Republican candidates are actually Christian Reconstructionists, which she also labels “dominionists,” and wish to convert American democracy into a theocracy.

Last August, she made this claim about Texas Governor Rick Perry and Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann. Paul is now the subject of her theories in her Jan. 3 article, “Ron Paul's Christian Reconstructionist Roots.”

To support her argument, Goldberg makes three main points.

First, many of Bachmann's evangelical Christian supporters, whom she refers to as “ultra-right evangelicals,” also support Paul, and the chair of Bachmann's Iowa campaign left her to support Paul. The reasoning goes like this: Bachmann is a dominionist, her supporters must also be dominionists, her supporters like Paul, Paul must be a dominionist.

Second, Goldberg states that Christian Reconstructionists are a radical faction of reformed theology, or what she calls covenant theology. Goldberg's “expert” consultant in this area is Steve Deace, a conservative talk radio host who endorsed Newt Gingrich. Deace has no formal training in theology or religious history.

Reformed theologians are the modern day inheritors of John Calvin's theology. They are represented by a broad swath of denominations, from the mainline, and more liberal, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to the more conservative and evangelical Reformed Church in America.

Goldberg's reasoning seems to be that all Christians who have adopted reformed theology must also be theocrats or on a slippery slope toward a belief in theocracy, because, Christian Reconstructionists have also been influenced by Reformed theology. Once that connection has been established, Goldberg uses reconstructionist and covenant theology interchangeably in the rest of the article.

Third, Christian Reconstructionists like Ron Paul. North worked on Paul's staff in 1976 during his first term in Congress. Howard Phillips, who Goldberg claims is also a Reconstructionist, founded the Constitution Party, and Paul endorsed the Constitution Party candidate (Chuck Baldwin) in 2008.

But how can Paul favor a theocracy if he wants a smaller, limited government? Goldberg answers that by arguing that Reconstructionists actually want a theocracy at the level of local government, not national government.

“It might seem that Paul’s libertarianism is the very opposite of theocracy, but that’s true only if you want to impose theocracy at the federal level. In general, Christian Reconstructionists favor a radically decentralized society, with communities ruled by male religious patriarchs.”

Goldberg reasons that anyone who has associated with a Reconstructionist must also be a Reconstructionist, and those who are two or three times removed from an association with a reconstructionist are also suspect. By the end of the article, Goldberg has lumped Reconstructionists, Reformed theology, and evangelical Christians all together and warns that a Paul presidency would lead to “Taliban-style stonings.”

Writing for the Action Institute's “PowerBlog,” Jordan Ballor, who has a Ph.D. in Reformation studies at the University of Zurich, says that there are some “interesting connections” between libertarianism and Christian Reconstructionism, but the connection between Christian Reconstructionism and Reformed theology is more tenuous.

Some of the strongest critics of Christian Reconstructionism, Ballor notes, have been from Reformed theologians. Plus, while Christian Reconstructionists identify themselves as within the Reformed tradition, Calvin explicitly opposed the idea of a theonomy (instituting the Old Testament laws).

In an Aug. 22, 2011 editorial for The Washington Post, columnist Michael Gerson argues that Goldberg and others who have made similar arguments are feeding a liberal paranoia that Republican candidates with high levels of religiosity secretly desire a theocratic state.

Gerson also notes that conspiracy theories based upon loose associations can also be found on the right.

“It is not just an argument but a style of argument. Critics of a public figure take a marginal association and turn it into a gnostic insight – an interpretive key that opens all doors. Barack Obama was once trained in a community organization that was associated with Saul Alinsky, whose organization was reportedly subject to communist influence. And we all know what that means. Or: Obama’s father was a socialist, anti-colonial Luo tribesman, and, well, like father like son. Never mind that that there is no serious evidence of political philosophic influence of father on son.”

“Thin charges of Dominionism are just another attempt to discredit opponents rather than answer them – in the same tradition as thin charges of Kenyan anti-colonialism,” Gerson concludes. “It is easier, after all, to allege a conspiracy than to engage an argument.”

For further reading: Ross Douthat, "Theocracy, Theocracy, Theocracy." First Things, August/September 2006.
“To think is easy. To act is hard. But the hardest thing in the world is to act in accordance with your thinking.”
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:59 pm

I don't really think there's enough there to support the conclusion that he's a dominionist/theocrat.

Christian reconstructionists, on the other hand...

support the recriminalization of acts of abortion and homosexuality, but also oppose confiscatory taxation, conscription, and most aspects of the welfare state. Protection of property and life needs grounding in biblical law, according to Reconstructionism, or the state set free from the restraint of God's law will take what it wishes at a whim. Accordingly, Reconstructionists advocate biblically derived measures of restitution, a definite limit upon the powers of taxation, and a gold standard or equivalent fixed unit for currency.


IOW, he's not a full-on declared theonomist (afaik). But since he does have explicitly and relatively recently declared theonomist leanings...

Ron Paul wrote:The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.


...and his politics are otherwise indistinguishable from Christian Reconstructionism, I'd say that even if Michelle Goldberg's Daily Beast essay did say anything remotely like what The Christian Post's Nazz Napworth says it did -- which, PS, it doesn't -- it'd still be Napworth who was wasting column space on having the vapors for no very apparent reason, not Goldberg.

QED.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:30 am

Ron Paul's Military Service Abroad: A Brief Update:

Well. It looks like the answer to my question is:

No. He's a cold-war vet. Furthermore:


* There was definitely USAF activity in Iran between 1963 and 1965, because RICHARD SECORD was running it. I mean, there might have been more going on there, too, of course. But I didn't get the impression that we were building bases all over the country or anything.

* We had huge, huge military ops going on all over Turkey. Including nukes, for part of that time. (Jupiter missiles.)

* I didn't check South Korea. Because I just assume we had a major military presence there.

* Ethiopia's the really weird one. He shouldn't have been there. There was a lot of proxy-war and proxy-war related stuff going on there at that time, and Haile Sellasse was still our guy then. But as far as I can tell, having U.S. military personnel in Ethiopia at that time would have been so unwelcome/controversial that the only USAF presence I could find was a "map-making" photo unit that had to paint its planes to look civilian and use bogus tags and numbers. According to its little memorial web-page.

The Peace Corps were there. And the African Development Bank was starting up, which I'm sure would have involved some State Department types. The Eritrean Civil War was just getting underway, too. And so on.

But if we had any troops or installations there, I haven't found them yet.

So Ethiopia and Iran are looking kind of intriguing on a very preliminary basis. It is very preliminary, though. So don't take it to the bank just yet.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby elfismiles » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:59 pm

CW2?, any luck uncovering Ron Paul's past intel links?

ImageThe Long Run
Ron Paul’s Flinty Worldview Was Forged in Early Family Life

By DAVID M. HALBFINGER
Published: February 5, 2012

ImageBob Daugherty/Associated Press - In 1979, Ron Paul, right of sign, and other members of Congress stood on a truckload of simulated gold bricks to show their opposition to giving up the Panama Canal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/06/us/po ... nding.html
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:08 am

I'm ashamed to say I totally forgot about it.

I wouldn't have found anything out anyway, though. If that helps.
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby elfismiles » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:04 am

No shame necessary. I just figured if there were some dirt there you (or somebody out there) would find it by now.

That NYTimes article certainly doesn't dig deep enough to uncover anything like that.

Why "wouldn't [you] have found anything out anyway"?

Perhaps "Anonymous" will find and release tapes of his supposed conference calls with A3Pers to confirm this recent dox dump purporting such calls. Seems like the MSM would be all over that instead of it just being all the "Progressive" websites.

compared2what? wrote:I'm ashamed to say I totally forgot about it.

I wouldn't have found anything out anyway, though. If that helps.
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby Searcher08 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:51 am

elfismiles wrote:No shame necessary. I just figured if there were some dirt there you (or somebody out there) would find it by now.

That NYTimes article certainly doesn't dig deep enough to uncover anything like that.

Why "wouldn't [you] have found anything out anyway"?

Perhaps "Anonymous" will find and release tapes of his supposed conference calls with A3Pers to confirm this recent dox dump purporting such calls. Seems like the MSM would be all over that instead of it just being all the "Progressive" websites.

compared2what? wrote:I'm ashamed to say I totally forgot about it.

I wouldn't have found anything out anyway, though. If that helps.



I had a look on Wiki and it seemed that there was a long term upgrading of the Ethiopian Air Force continuing during the early 60s that had been going on for several years and that there was a similar situation with the Iranian Air Force. The center of operations seemed to be Incirlik
Air Base in Turkey, which had been established in the 1940s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_Air_Base_Wing

Ron Paul was had graduated Duke Medical School before this and would have been a flight surgeon, which is quite a specialised field:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_surgeon
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:06 pm

If there had been any US military presence in Ethiopia between '63 and '65, even covert, we would have learned about it in countless reggae songs.
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:20 pm

http://newsone.com/nation/casey-gane-mc ... ist-group/

Ron Paul Set To Speak To FBI’s Anti-Government Extremist Group

Written by Casey Gane-McCalla, Lead Blogger on February 9, 2012

Image


Congressman Ron Paul is scheduled to speak at the Freedom Law Conference on March 16th. The Freedom Law Conference is a gathering of so called “Sovereign Citizens.” The FBI has just issued a warning about “Sovereign Citizens” claiming that they are a growing threat to local law enforcement agencies.

The extremists may refuse to pay taxes, defy government environmental regulations and believe the United States went bankrupt by going off the gold standard.

Routine encounters with police can turn violent “at the drop of a hat,” said Stuart McArthur, deputy assistant director in the FBI’s counterterrorism division.


The “Sovereign Citizen” movement is deeply rooted in white supremacy and conspiracy theories and they attract many from militias and the Patriot Movement according to the SPLC.

The movement is rooted in racism and anti-Semitism, though most sovereigns, many of whom are African American, are unaware of their beliefs’ origins. In the early 1980s, the sovereign citizens movement mostly attracted white supremacists and anti-Semites, mainly because sovereign theories originated in groups that saw Jews as working behind the scenes to manipulate financial institutions and control the government. Most early sovereigns, and some of those who are still on the scene, believed that being white was a prerequisite to becoming a sovereign citizen. They argued that the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which guaranteed citizenship to African Americans and everyone else born on U.S. soil, also made black Americans permanently subject to federal and state governments, unlike themselves.

Several members of the “Sovereign Citizen” movement have been involved in violence and terrorism, including Terry Nichols, Timothy McVeigh’s partner in the Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people, including 19 young children. In 2010 two “Sovereign Citizens” murdered two police officers in a routine traffic stop. Joseph Stack who flew a plane into an IRS building in Austin Texas in 2010 was also a “Sovereign Citizen.”

Paul has long courted anti-government, militia and New World Order conspiracy groups. In his newsletters, he wrote the “10 Militia Commandments,” in which he gave advice to militia groups.

“Keep the group size down, Keep quiet and you’re harder to find, Leave no clues, Avoid the phone as much as possible,’ and ‘Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”


Watch 60 Minutes Coverage Of The “Sovereign Citizen” Movement:

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i'm running i'm passing i'm passing i'm running

Postby IanEye » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:38 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:If there had been any US military presence in Ethiopia between '63 and '65, even covert, we would have learned about it in countless reggae songs.



*






*
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:32 pm

Well would you look at that. I guess I just never parsed the meaning.
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"Good afternoon! Here's the News..."

Postby IanEye » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:14 pm

eye never meditate 'pon Ron Paul 'til i lick me chalice first.

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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:24 am

elfismiles wrote:No shame necessary. I just figured if there were some dirt there you (or somebody out there) would find it by now.

That NYTimes article certainly doesn't dig deep enough to uncover anything like that.


Ha. The only reason they'd ever even think about looking at that material would be if some nice obliging oppo-researcher from someone else's campaign dropped it in their laps.

I'm sure that's exactly what led to the WaPo finally doing the Of-course-he-knew-what-was-in-those-newsletters story. The only enterprise reporting any of those places ever do is always either done by one of their couple/few prestigious-award-winning investigative stars, or by a staff-newsroom team that was obviously explicitly assigned to do a series that could be submitted for a public-service Pulitzer.

Mostly. On which basis one might infer that the WaPo story is probably a sign of how well he was doing, as a matter of fact. (IE -- Well enough that an oppo guy working for Gingrich or Santorum or whomever dropped those sources on the media.)

Yes, that's just my little fantasy. What of it?

Why "wouldn't [you] have found anything out anyway"?


What someone did during his service just isn't the kind of thing you can figure out with open-source research on the internet. (Especially if it was covert in some way, obviously.)

But you know what? You might be able to find out the basics. Because his personnel file is probably in the Texas State Archives. You could submit a FOIA for them. Then the Archives would forward to the TXANG. Then the TXANG would say you couldn't have them for some reason. Then you could resubmit the request with a line added saying something like, "Oh, ffs, just REDACT the addresses and SS#'s, I didn't want those ANYWAY," in order to allay their concerns.

And then they'd say "No" again!

Actually, it might not be that big of a deal. There's no way of knowing unless you try.

I say go for it.

Searcher08 wrote:I had a look on Wiki and it seemed that there was a long term upgrading of the Ethiopian Air Force continuing during the early 60s that had been going on for several years and that there was a similar situation with the Iranian Air Force. The center of operations seemed to be Incirlik
Air Base in Turkey, which had been established in the 1940s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_Air_Base_Wing


Yes, we were all over Turkey doing cold-war stuff during that era. And we were also backing Ethiopia against Eritrea (and assorted other cold-war shenanigans) at the same time. And I had thought that apart from some guys on a map-making mission, we didn't have troops stationed there.

But I was WRONG. It was very small, but evidently there was some US military presence there:

On May 22, 1953, the United States and Ethiopia concluded an agreement that gave the United States a twenty-five-year lease on the Kagnew communications station in Asmera. At the time, Kagnew was one of the largest radio relay and communications monitoring stations in the world. The United States later developed its facilities, which were manned by 4,000 American military personnel, to monitor Soviet radio communications throughout the region. The two countries also signed a Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement, whereby the United States pledged to provide US$5 million to equip and train three 6,000-member Ethiopian divisions. A United States Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) was sent to Ethiopia to administer this program. By March 31, 1954, the United States had delivered US$3.8 million worth of small arms, vehicles, and artillery to Ethiopia. In October 1954, Washington granted another US$5 million in aid to Ethiopia; and in November 1955, the United States Joint Chiefs of Staff agreed that Addis Ababa needed a minimum of US$5 million a year in military assistance supplemented by the direct sale of air force and naval equipment. Despite these increases, the Ethiopian government complained that this military aid was insufficient to satisfy its defense needs. In early 1956, Addis Ababa therefore appealed to Washington for "a combination of grants and long-term military credits to support the country's defense needs," which included the suppression of Eritrean dissenters. In October 1956, the United States National Security Council responded to this request by issuing a report that included a recommendation that United States assistance to Ethiopia be increased.

After 1960--a year in which Washington promised to provide support for a 40,000-member Ethiopian army--United States military aid to Ethiopia gradually increased. In the 1960s, at the peak of United States involvement, more than 300 American personnel were serving in the MAAG. In addition, nearly 23,000 Ethiopian service personnel, including at least twenty who subsequently became members of the Derg, received advanced training directly from United States personnel. About 4,000 of these troops were trained at facilities in the United States, Mengistu Haile Mariam among them. By 1974 Ethiopia's armed forces had become totally dependent on the United States for military hardware and spare parts.


So there you have it.

Ron Paul was had graduated Duke Medical School before this and would have been a flight surgeon, which is quite a specialised field:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_surgeon


Yeah. It depends. But it's still kind of weird that he wasn't just stationed in one place with one unit for such a short stint, especially during that era. After all, there was a hot war going on at the time. And tons of bases all over the U.S. and the world with fighters and bombers on stand-by all the time. They all would have needed flight surgeons. Why wasn't he at one of them, instead of rushing around on some kind of Early 1960s Hot-Spots of the Cold-War Grand Rounds????

I WANT TO KNOW. Because I'm a busybody.
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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Re: Fuck Ron Paul

Postby compared2what? » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:15 am

FWIW, a guy in the comments section here says he's telling tall tales about his service:

Paul was NOT a flight surgeon. He was a gynecologist. He NEVER was trained for aviation medicine.

Give it a rest, we know he was a draftee. Flight surgeons are CAREER OFFICERS, not one-termers.

(USAF, 1981-1993, ANG/AFRES 2001-2009...and I FLEW. Paul DIDN'T or he would have had an AVIATION BADGE on his blues.)


He has a little set-to about it w/ another commenter, so it goes into a smidge more detail, but not much.

Anyone have any idea who's right?
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
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