The 2012 "Election" thread

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby bks » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:51 pm

Jeff wrote:Election theft really is like stealing candy from a baby, because the electorate has been infantilized, and even if they notice the theft they'll cry and cry and then fall asleep.

And yes, I'm calling it for Romney.

Whether it's reality or not, the perception exists that he has the edge in independents and whites, and has erased Obama's margin with women. Republicans appear to have the more motivated base and the more likely-to-vote supporters. A little tweaking here and there as necessary should be enough to hand it to him.


Agree. My quibble is that I don't see that the narrative is being constructed in order that the election can be more easily and acceptably stolen. This is more likely a by-product of constructing an oh-so-close race, the value of which for media companies (billions in extra dollars) and their 'news' wings (we're the most important people in the world at the moment) is obviously quite large.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby barracuda » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:09 pm

Yes, but what a tasty by-product it is.

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby bks » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:36 pm

barracuda wrote:You know bks, I realize that every presidential election (and most congressional elections as well, ftm) are nowadays referred to as THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION OF OUR LIFETIME by much of our compliant and pandering media, but in my honest opinion, in retrospect, the most important election in my lifetime was the 2000 presidential election, and if you want hardish evidence of obvious media complicity in the stealing of an election by the Republicans, I think you can satisfied-ish by looking hard at the response to that travesty of democracy. The crew at the World Socialist Website laid out a pretty nice breakdown of the media bullshit in that case on the ten-year anniversary of the coup.

Sunday, December 12 marks ten years since the US Supreme Court effectively decided the outcome of the 2000 presidential election, halting the counting of votes in Florida and awarding the White House to George W. Bush. The 5-4 ruling in Bush v. Gore, together with the contemptible capitulation of the Democratic Party, constituted a milestone in the decay of American democracy.

In a social and political context in which the debacles produced by the Bush administration loom so large in everyday life, it might be thought that the American media and political opinion makers would devote considerable attention to the tenth anniversary of the event that placed Bush in the White House.

In fact, however, the silence is deafening. Neither the New York Times nor the Washington Post, the two leading national newspapers, published retrospectives to mark the occasion. Their example was emulated in the regional and local press and on the television networks. Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer, one of the four dissenters in Bush v. Gore, gave a rare live interview to Fox News Sunday, but the subject never came up.

Only one bourgeois pundit, right-wing columnist George Will, took up the issue, and he dismissed the Supreme Court action as one of little or no lasting significance, asserting that the passions over the decision “dissipated quickly” and that “remarkably little damage was done” by the post-election crisis.

Significantly, however, Will’s cursory rehash of the dispute included flatly antidemocratic assertions—that the votes of those who “cast ballots incompetently” should simply have been discarded and that the fundamental right at stake in the court fight was the “rights of state legislatures” (in Florida’s case, Republican-controlled), which have “plenary power” to determine voting procedures.

Will, of course, agrees with the five-member majority in Bush v. Gore that the central issue was not to determine, in as objective a fashion as possible, how the people of Florida actually voted—in other words, to count every vote—but to bring the controversy to a speedy end with the result favored by the political right. This entailed ignoring the result of the popular vote, won by Democrat Al Gore.

The silence of the nominally “liberal” press is a guilty one. They do not wish to revisit the history, not so long ago, in which the Democratic Party and the liberal media surrendered to a right-wing judicial coup d’état, whose effect was to install the most right-wing government in American history.

The election of November 7, 2000

The events of Election Day 2000, encompassing the night of Tuesday, November 7 and the early morning hours of Wednesday, November 8, are among the most extraordinary in American political history. Yet they came after a presidential campaign of the most humdrum character, in which no political issues were seriously discussed. The consensus among political pundits and pollsters was that Bush, then governor of Texas, held a narrow but significant lead over his Democratic opponent, Vice President Al Gore.

As in 1998, however, when predictions of major Republican gains in the midst of the impeachment crisis failed to materialize, it appeared as the votes began to be counted that the political establishment had underestimated the popular hostility towards the right-wing program of the Republican Party, founded on tax cuts for the wealthy and the slashing of domestic social spending.

Gore won many of the big industrial states with relative ease, including Michigan and Pennsylvania. The Democrats were sweeping the northeastern states and were expected to win the Pacific Coast, while Bush carried the south and southwest, the Rocky Mountain states and Ohio. It appeared that the election would be decided by Florida’s 25 votes in the Electoral College.

Just before 8 p.m., several US television networks called the outcome in Florida for Gore, based on their exit polls of voters compiled throughout the day. The Bush campaign reacted immediately, breaking with precedent and putting the candidate before television cameras to denounce the network projections and declare his certainty that Florida—where his brother Jeb was governor and the Republicans controlled the machinery of state government—would end up in his column.

The networks backed down, rescinding their call for Gore and declaring the outcome in Florida still undecided. Then, in the early hours of Wednesday, Fox News became the first network to call Florida for Bush, thereby declaring him the victor in the election.

Heading the decision desk, where the network reviewed vote totals and polls to arrive at projections, was John W. Ellis, a first cousin of George W. Bush. Ellis unilaterally called the election for Bush before any determination by the Voter News Service, the consortium of leading newspapers and television networks, after a 2 a.m. telephone discussion with Bush and his brother Jeb.

When the other networks followed suit, pronouncing Bush the winner, Democrat Al Gore telephoned his concession to Bush. But on the way to make his televised concession speech before an audience of supporters in Nashville, Gore received a phone call from campaign aides who advised him that the numbers in Florida showed the race too close to call. Gore telephoned Bush again and retracted his concession.

These events had critical importance for what was to follow. The media coverage, as well as Gore’s premature concession, gave the impression to the public that Bush had “won” Florida—and the national election—by a narrow margin. Throughout the ensuing crisis, the corporate-controlled media largely parroted the official Republican posture that Bush was the presumptive winner. The fact that Gore had won by a sizeable margin in the national popular vote, as much as a half million votes, was dismissed as of no significance.


I would also point to the quite recent re-evaluation of the significance of exit polling on election day. Twenty years ago, the scientific accuracy of such polling was an understanding relied upon by every network and news outlet in the United States. Now for some inexplicable reason, the variation between exit polls and actual results has become a commonplace. The first indication that this was happening was during reporting of exit polls favoring John Kerry in 2004, and although the evidence in this case is not as unequivocal as one might like, I would say, to me, it qualifies as hardish-ish, and bears examination germane to your request.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Unite ... it_polling


Good catch. It's perfectly clear that the big media are deeply complicit since at least 2000 in enabling the conditions under which elections can be stolen, and that HAVA in 2002 further aided and abetted same. Yet the media's behavior can probably be explained by abject cowardice and professional predilection to not face down corruption when they see it (to the degree they're different things). John Ellis was being partisan in making that call, for sure. But he was Bush's cousin. A closer examination of the circumstances under which the other networks followed suit is just what I'd like to see.

As for the 2004 exit polls, I'm in the process of making just the sort of examination you're proposing. I'll also be watching the 2012 exit polling carefully, and in preparation for it I'm boning up on pre-election forecasts. (BTW: exit polling will be more limited in 2012 than previous years. http://washingtonexaminer.com/2012-exit ... JLAYYWvWvk

This year's pre-election polling rift is between the "state-based" analyses which tend to have Obama ahead by a small by decidable margin, and the "national-based" analyses that tend to favor a Romney victory. While the groundwork for post-election explanations of why everything said right up to the moment people voted happened to be wrong, there's still going to be a lot left to explain in a Romney victory. For instance:

Mr. Obama continues to hold the lead in the vast majority of polls in Iowa, Nevada, Ohio and Wisconsin, the states that represent his path of least resistance toward winning the Electoral College. This was particularly apparent on Wednesday, a day when there were a remarkable number of polls, 27, released in the battleground states.

There were 12 polls published on Wednesday [OCT 31] among Iowa, Nevada, Ohio and Wisconsin. Mr. Obama held the lead in 11 of the 12 surveys; the exception was a survey by the University of Iowa, which had Mr. Obama down by about one point there, but also had a very small sample size (about 300 likely voters). On average, Mr. Obama led in the polls of these states by 3.9 percentage points.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... -in-polls/


Despite this seemingly strong position, Nate Silver uses a bad metaphor to explain the situation:

Mr. Obama is not a sure thing, by any means. It is a close race. His chances of holding onto his Electoral College lead and converting it into another term are equivalent to the chances of an N.F.L. team winning when it leads by a field goal with three minutes left to play in the fourth quarter. There are plenty of things that could go wrong, and sometimes they will.

But it turns out that an N.F.L. team that leads by a field goal with three minutes left to go winds up winning the game 79 percent of the time. Those were Mr. Obama’s chances in the FiveThirtyEight forecast as of Wednesday: 79 percent.

Not coincidentally, these are also about Mr. Obama’s chances of winning Ohio, according to the forecast.


Problem is, in any particular NFL game, we'd be able to narrow in on the true probability by determining who has the ball, where it is on the field, how many time outs the two teams have, who's playing one another, on what sort of field, etc. etc. So what are the relevant particularities in this election that would allow us to narrow in on the true percentages? From what we read in the rest of Silver's piece, it seems like they favor Obama:

Ohio remains the tipping-point state in the forecast, the one that puts him over the top to 270 electoral votes. There, Mr. Obama leads by 2.6 percentage points, which should convert to a victory about 80 percent of the time given the historical accuracy of polls at this late stage of the race. . .

If Mr. Obama wins Ohio, and all the states above it on the chart, he’d have 281 electoral votes, meaning that he has 11 to spare. That means he could shed New Hampshire from his list, along with either Iowa or Nevada (although not both).

Of these two states, Nevada appears to be the slightly safer one for Mr. Obama; there, Mr. Obama leads by 3.5 percentage points in the forecast, as opposed to 2.9 percentage points in Iowa. The polling has also been somewhat more consistent in Nevada than in Iowa, another factor that the forecast considers in evaluating the probability of an upset.

One fortunate aspect of these two particular states, from Mr. Obama’s view, is that they are not very similar to one another demographically.

Iowa is quite rural. Nevada occupies a huge geographical territory, but its population is very urban, mostly living in Las Vegas and its suburbs.

Iowa is overwhelmingly white, and has a lot of moderate and middle-income, but highly educated, voters. Nevada certainly has an independent streak, but winning there usually depends more upon building a 50 percent coalition among diverse groups and then turning it out to vote. Iowa has a pretty good economy, all things considered; Nevada’s is still terrible.

Since Mr. Obama only needs to carry one of these states, it helps him that they form a diverse portfolio. If Mr. Obama’s turnout operation is strong, then Nevada should be one of the states where he benefits the most. If, instead, Mr. Obama has little “ground game” advantage, but he holds his own among independent and undecided voters, perhaps persuading them that the economy has improved enough to merit his re-election, Iowa may fall for him.


And so we see the problem with analyses like Silver's. The variables I bolded above have data associated with them too! Polling won't reflect turnout operation, but things are known about it. Why isn't factored in? There are polls that DO reflect independent and undecided voters (even if simply to tell us how many are still undecided). How can you issue a true forecast without making an assessment of them as well? Am I missing something?

Silver finishes up by making an even stronger case for Obama than he wants to acknowledge:

for what it’s worth, our national poll average shows Mr. Obama up by about half a percentage point right now. This is within the range of other Web sites: Real Clear Politics has an exactly tied race in its national poll average; HuffPost Pollster has Mr. Obama down by three-tenths of a point; Talking Points Memo has Mr. Obama ahead by about one percentage point.

Again: we don’t take the average of the national polls to be tantamount to a forecast of the national popular vote, since state polls, if considered carefully, can provide considerable information about the national race as well.

Suppose, however, that Mr. Obama were to tie Mr. Romney in the popular vote on Tuesday. The way that the forecast model works, this would require subtracting some from Mr. Obama in each state in order for the arithmetic to add up.

Even under these conditions, Mr. Obama would still be a favorite in the forecast. In fact, he’d be about a 70 percent favorite to win the Electoral College conditional upon the national popular vote being tied, according to our simulations.

A tie in the national popular vote is a tolerable condition for Mr. Obama, in other words. His position is robust enough in states like Ohio that he has some slack. With a lead of about 2.5 percentage points in the tipping-point states, Mr. Obama could underperform his state polls by a point or two and still win.

Conversely, Mr. Romney has few chances to win unless the state polls are systematically wrong.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:09 pm

One has to wonder if Christie was shown exactly how this election would turn out in light of Sandy, in preparation for his 2016 bid.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:29 pm

The wave for Obama
As he tours Sandy devastation with Chris Christie, swing state polls break for the president
By Joan Walsh, Salon
10/31/12

Image

Weirdly, Mitt Romney was counting on a “wave” of anti-Obama voters to carry him to victory Nov. 6. But the waves have all gone President Obama’s way, and I’m not making a tasteless Sandy joke. With reliable polls in Ohio and Wisconsin Wednesday showing Obama with solid leads there, Romney has almost no path to victory on Tuesday. Polls today also showed him holding smaller leads in the swing states of Virginia, Florida and Nevada, and tied in North Carolina.

It’s still theoretically possible that lingering post-Sandy problems – and they will be massive – could sour voters’ moods or hamper turnout on Tuesday. This race is still tight. But Romney’s inability to close the deal after his Oct. 3 debate surge is looking permanent.

. . .
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Nordic » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:56 pm

Luther Blissett wrote:One has to wonder if Christie was shown exactly how this election would turn out in light of Sandy, in preparation for his 2016 bid.


It's all scripted. No need to "wonder".

This media event, the "bonding" between Christie and Obama after a freak storm, cements Obama's "victory".

This was pre-ordained and has been for quite some time.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:38 pm

I agree Nordic, although the election fraud wild card is still in play. ON EDIT: And, of course, they didn't need it last time around with Obama, since the psy-op con job rigged people's brains instead. This time around, we'll get to see who TPTB really want, and I do think the signs are all pointing in Obama's favor. And, just like before, should Obama "win", the election fraud debacle will get thrown into the memory hole/conspiracy theory waste basket. And if Romney "wins", the powerless conspiracy theorists on the "left" will just make a lot of noise but have nowhere to turn, just like in 2000 and 2004. Lovely.

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:45 pm

ninakat wrote:The wave for Obama
As he tours Sandy devastation with Chris Christie, swing state polls break for the president
By Joan Walsh, Salon
10/31/12

Image

Weirdly, Mitt Romney was counting on a “wave” of anti-Obama voters to carry him to victory Nov. 6. But the waves have all gone President Obama’s way, and I’m not making a tasteless Sandy joke. With reliable polls in Ohio and Wisconsin Wednesday showing Obama with solid leads there, Romney has almost no path to victory on Tuesday. Polls today also showed him holding smaller leads in the swing states of Virginia, Florida and Nevada, and tied in North Carolina.

It’s still theoretically possible that lingering post-Sandy problems – and they will be massive – could sour voters’ moods or hamper turnout on Tuesday. This race is still tight. But Romney’s inability to close the deal after his Oct. 3 debate surge is looking permanent.

. . .



So Sandy was Obama's 9/11?(simply talking in terms of a major catastrophe being a boon, like sept 11 was to Bush)
My guess was that the electricity issues would prevent a lot of coasters from voting, but Sand could very well be the death knell for the Romney campaign.
Bloomberg, Christie, etc are now joining the list of R governors switching to Obama.

I personally don't care who wins, other that I want to see the people gut check and really scrutinize our elected leaders(not retard Tea Partiers with fantasy complaints or anarchists simply yappin gon about vague issues)
We need Wisconsin 2011, not "1776" as some blowhard patriots want.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:47 pm

Nordic wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:One has to wonder if Christie was shown exactly how this election would turn out in light of Sandy, in preparation for his 2016 bid.


It's all scripted. No need to "wonder".

This media event, the "bonding" between Christie and Obama after a freak storm, cements Obama's "victory".

This was pre-ordained and has been for quite some time.



I was definitely calling the election for Romney after the strange debate events and alleged rise in polls. But yeah this Sandy situation, very out of the blue...like a guy who runs into the ring when the ref isnt looking, hits
a guy with a chair shot and the other guy gets the easy quick 1-2-3 pin in a pro wrestling match. WHAT A STUNNER FOLKS!
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:50 pm

^^^ Yep, a real October Soup Prize. You heard it here first. :umbrella:
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby Belligerent Savant » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:56 pm

ninakat wrote:I agree Nordic, although the election fraud wild card is still in play. ON EDIT: And, of course, they didn't need it last time around with Obama, since the psy-op con job rigged people's brains instead. This time around, we'll get to see who TPTB really want, and I do think the signs are all pointing in Obama's favor. And, just like before, should Obama "win", the election fraud debacle will get thrown into the memory hole/conspiracy theory waste basket. And if Romney "wins", the powerless conspiracy theorists on the "left" will just make a lot of noise but have nowhere to turn, just like in 2000 and 2004. Lovely.




http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/ ... =8&t=33042


Don't need machines for voter fraud. Happens with or without machines.

Or, perhaps no 'fraud' need be committed at all at this point. Populace is just about dumbed down enough, manipulated enough, disinformed enough, to vote however the ' operational few' deem fit.

Maybe not for this upcoming National election, but we'll get there soon enough, barring system interruption -- ready to pull that lever for whoever we are told is the better candidate without the need for any fraud to facilitate the outcome.

So, go 'head and fix them machines. The game itself is rigged -- not the equipment.

...

Understandably, there will be those that will attempt to plug the leaks by sealing the holes with their fingers. Unfortunately, one has only 10 fingers, and the number of holes far outweigh the fingers in one's hand.

Let the dam break. Only way to cleanse and start anew...
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby 8bitagent » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:58 pm

I now got a queasy feeling of a scenario I hinted at before. Something a thousand times worse for America than Romney getting elected.

Let's just say, I seriously hope the SS/FBI/Homeland Security takes that MIAC report stuff seriously.
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby ninakat » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:26 pm

(No Matter Who Wins)
Five Easy Post-Election Predictions
by SHAMUS COOKE, November 01, 2012

It’s true that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney have many political differences. But they also agree on many essential policies; enough to make the next four years easily predictable, no matter who wins. Here are five predictions based on the most important shared beliefs of the two candidates:

1) The war on unions will continue. The Republicans are explicitly anti-union, while the Democrats are pro-union in words, but anti-union in practice. Obama’s much touted Race to the Top national education policy directly targets the heart of the teacher’s unions — the most powerful union in the country — by attacking seniority rights and restricting wages and benefits.

Also, Democratic and Republican governors on a state by state basis aim to either carve giant concessions from public employees, or take away their rights as unionists altogether — the lesser evil policy of demanding concessions (Democrats) is but one step from ending collective bargaining (Republicans).

As the recession grinds on, this bi-partisan anti-union policy will intensify, no matter who is president. The aim of this anti-union policy is to lower wages for all workers, since unions artificially skew the labor market to the benefit of workers in general; attacking the unions is thus an attack on all workers, organized or not, so that corporations can regain “profitability” by having their labor costs lowered.

2) The war on the environment will continue. Both parties treat the environment like they do organized labor. The Republicans openly degrade it and the Democrats make pro-environment statements while practicing the opposite. Whoever wins will continue to pander to Big Coal, and they will continue to advocate for dangerous arctic and Gulf oil drilling, wreak havoc by shale “natural gas” drilling, build the cross continental Keystone pipeline, while continuing to do little or nothing to build the absolutely necessary alternative energy infrastructure that would provide jobs and hope for humanity against climate change. Obama and Romney refuse to take the necessary actions to address the climate crisis because doing so would harm the profits of the big corporate polluters. Neither presidential candidates will do so much as begin an honest public discussion about the problem, ensuring that other countries will follow suit, to the peril of all of us.

3) Wall Street will reign supreme. During the debates it was made clear that no further action against Wall Street was necessary. But the banks are bigger under Obama than they were under Bush, which means they are still “too big to fail,” ensuring future bailouts paid by taxpayers. Federal Reserve policy is not controversial for either Republicans or Democrats: historic low interest rates combined with printing massive amounts of additional money — called “quantitative easing” — have both served the profits of Wall Street banks quite well, while everyone else sees their wages and benefits cut. Loans to working people are no easier to come by, while the banks and corporations are literally sitting on trillions of dollars of reserves in cash.

4) Post election national austerity cuts. The national deficit is the result of bank bailouts, foreign wars, and decades of continually lowering taxes for the rich and corporations. Obama and Romney both ignore these facts, and favor “trigger cuts” — massive cuts in jobs and social programs that would go into effect if Republicans and Democrats can’t agree on how many trillions of dollars of cuts to make (Obama’s proposed deficit cutting plan would make 4 $trillion in cuts; Paul Ryan wants 6 $trillion.)

And while Obama has made quite a bit of noise about “taxing the rich” to help fill the deficit gap, the same promises were made last election and amounted to naught when he extended Bush’s tax cuts for the rich. Taxing the rich is the only alternative to making cuts, since working people have so little left to tax. Instead, Obama is using the deficit to justify massive cuts to Medicare, public education, unemployment insurance, and likely Social Security and other programs. The Obama/Romney “rift” over the deficit is, in reality, a polite discussion of how best to slash and burn social programs, while differences are exaggerated for the sake of their election campaigns.

5) Foreign wars will continue. Listening to Obama and Romney debate foreign war was very much a Pepsi/Coke style debate. Both candidates love Israel, hate Iran and Syria, lie about a “time table” for Afghanistan (no serious foreign policy pundit believes the U.S. is leaving Afghanistan in 2014). Both are for continued drone bombings of Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia which are obvious war crimes, while both candidates hypocritically accuse Syria of “human rights violations.” In short, both candidates argue over how best to push the Middle East and North Africa to the brink of regional war, without being blamed for it.

Ultimately, there do exist differences in social policy between President Obama and Mitt Romney. The above policies, however, will deeply affect all working people in the United States. The country is not in a typical recession. Most economists agree that, at best, the U.S. economy can expect a “lost decade” of economic stagnation — at worst, a double dip recession/depression.

The above policies are shaped with this worst case scenario in mind, with the understanding that for capitalism to re-stabilize itself, a “new normal” is needed that shifts the power in the U.S. even more towards the banks and corporations, who must be completely unrestrained by labor, environmental and other regulations to ruthlessly chase profit, to the detriment of us all.

Thus, the Democrats and Republicans have the same “big picture” agenda that all working people should find abhorrent, since corporate gains will come at our expense. Once workers feel compelled to organize themselves to put up a fight, as the Chicago teachers did, all illusions in the Democrats will begin to fade, as people see with their own eyes the Democrats not only refusing to help them but actively opposing them, just as they did to the teachers in Chicago. Developments like this will allow a real movement to emerge that can challenge the two-party corporate dominated agenda. Until labor and community groups can unite on a widespread basis in independent action against the above bi-partisan agenda, we’ll be forever dragged into rooting for one of two candidates, neither of who have our basic interests in mind.

Shamus Cooke is a social service worker, trade unionist, and writer for Workers Action (http://www.workerscompass.org). He can be reached at shamuscooke@gmail.com
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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby yossarian » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:41 pm

Counting on the wisdom of crowds, the incumbents victory is in the bag...

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Re: The 2012 "Election" thread

Postby DrVolin » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:44 pm

I'm going to maintain my prediction. As of this morning all Romney needs to do is to flip Ohio and New Hampshire to win. Both states have a well documented history of electronic vote fraud.
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