What constitutes Misogyny?

[Laodicean]

I think I recall the influence of hip-hop on misogyny was talked about earlier in the thread, but fwiw...

Urban Dictionary defines biotch as:

1. (noun) a woman of unsavory character traits pertaining to negative or even beligerant attitude (ie. a pain in the ass or a moody bitch)

2. (noun) a man who's abilities/character/mindset/emotional responses is atypical of that which is generally associated with being a man (ie. acting like a girl, wimp or homosexual)

3. (noun) a non-offensive colloquialism meant to reference to a girl or a woman with whom the speaker is associated in some way

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biotch

I believe Snoop Dogg made the term (in)famous from Dr. Dre's 1992 debut album The Chronic. Looking back on that album now...incredibly misogynistic.

Queen Latifah confronted it with her song U.N.I.T.Y. a year later in 1993. She won a Grammy for the effort. But Snoop and Dre brought back that "winning" formula in 2001.

I will not embed any of those tracks. Eddie Griffin's rant track on 2001 is especially vile, IMO.

[Canadian_watcher]

There were times when my sisters guessed the word without any verbal or physical ques. They were intellectually able to pick up on each others thought and speak the answer.

I know this was not your main point but I just have to add that my friend and I could do this too, and in fact are banned from being partners to this day in certain circles. The incident that finally and permanently put the kibosh on our ever teaming up again was when I guessed "Iowa" right off the bat in the game of pictionary after my friend drew two lines. No cheating.. just some weird connection.

To the rest of your point.. I can't argue against feelings/emotions being more powerful than words but my point is that we convey those feelings with verbal expressions most of the time. Not to discount non-verbal communication since hugs and gang-signs and even just shared glances can say a lot, too.

[Canadian_watcher]

I think I recall the influence of hip-hop on misogyny was talked about earlier in the thread, but fwiw...

Urban Dictionary defines biotch as:

1. (noun) a woman of unsavory character traits pertaining to negative or even beligerant attitude (ie. a pain in the ass or a moody bitch)

2. (noun) a man who's abilities/character/mindset/emotional responses is atypical of that which is generally associated with being a man (ie. acting like a girl, wimp or homosexual)

3. (noun) a non-offensive colloquialism meant to reference to a girl or a woman with whom the speaker is associated in some way

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biotch

not too empowering. I could hardly believe it when rap took off and women started using the word bitch to describe each other.. well not really to describe but to refer to one another in regular conversation. That really blew my mind. It was about then that I started kind of taking stock of the demise of feminism and why I kind of reinvigorated my own (and hopefully passed some of it on to my daughter, husband, friends' kids, young women at work, etc)

I cannot think of an instance where 'bitch' is used as an expression of respect for a woman, in spite of the reclaiming of the word as in PW's post on the last page. I had never thought of it as being like the 'n' word, either, so I thank PW for that, since now that it's been brought to my attention it is so obviously similar I can't believe I missed it all these years.

[WakeUpAndLive]

I think I recall the influence of hip-hop on misogyny was talked about earlier in the thread, but fwiw...

Urban Dictionary defines biotch as:

1. (noun) a woman of unsavory character traits pertaining to negative or even beligerant attitude (ie. a pain in the ass or a moody bitch)

2. (noun) a man who's abilities/character/mindset/emotional responses is atypical of that which is generally associated with being a man (ie. acting like a girl, wimp or homosexual)

3. (noun) a non-offensive colloquialism meant to reference to a girl or a woman with whom the speaker is associated in some way

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=biotch

I believe Snoop Dogg made the term (in)famous from Dr. Dre's 1992 debut album The Chronic. Looking back on that album now...incredibly misogynistic.

Queen Latifah confronted it with her song U.N.I.T.Y. a year later in 1993. She won a Grammy for the effort. But Snoop and Dre brought back that "winning" formula in 2001.

I will not embed any of those tracks. Eddie Griffin's rant track on 2001 is especially vile, IMO.

The rap industry has been a big proponent of misogynistic thought, beyond just those two rappers. Lil' Wayne currently is a big artist who influences a lot of younger peoples thoughts on women....It doesn't help that people like soldier boy become famous for a misogynistic song either...almost like if you wanna make it big in rap you better be a misogynist.

Interesting points on those two words c_w, especially how often both are used in rap (although rappers go for the more politically correct ending of ****a). they are negative words that a group of people has adopted to describe themselves....I would say this falls under the desensitization aspect I mentioned earlier.

I know this was not your main point but I just have to add that my friend and I could do this too, and in fact are banned from being partners to this day in certain circles. The incident that finally and permanently put the kibosh on our ever teaming up again was when I guessed "Iowa" right off the bat in the game of pictionary after my friend drew two lines. No cheating.. just some weird connection.

To the rest of your point.. I can't argue against feelings/emotions being more powerful than words but my point is that we convey those feelings with verbal expressions most of the time. Not to discount non-verbal communication since hugs and gang-signs and even just shared glances can say a lot, too.

Also, that is exactly the type of thing I am talking about. There is a deeper level of understanding each other which words just cannot fathom or convey. In addition, verbal communication is important, I just feel we place over importance on verbal communication.



*edit*
Although a completely unrelated event, I think this video portrays it very clearly. It is speaking about Autistic children's extrasensory abilities and how we are missing it, you can start from the 4 minute mark if you wish to skip the pre-amble (which states this woman's epiphany on the subject and her reluctance to describe this to co-workers):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4WAYJBDevw

My favorite quote@ around 8:25:

"It changes our whole notion of what is intelligence and what is learning. It is at the fundamental understanding of what is human."

[Kate]

By my way of thinking, the point at which words and emotions converge, and feed one another (emotion gives rise to words to express it, which then in turn feeds the emotion, etc.) is INTENT.

If I lack my own "personal power," and then seek instead to have "power over" another individual or group (in the instance of the topic here, women), then I will use any tool at my disposal to denigrate my target.

Hence, it even becomes possible to use superficially "polite" words to insult my target, if I accompany those words with a sarcastic tone, an eye-rolling glance, or any other dismissive body language which conveys an intent to belittle or trivialize the target, or in any other way signifying that I deny the very reality of the "other(s)."

BTW, just typing that gives me the willies. I used the 1st person in an attempt to convey the mental "landscape" of an abuser (misogynist, racist, etc.), but it is alien to all I hold dear in my own life. Nonetheless, it's become important to me in my personal life to understand that mindset, and in general I believe it useful for everyone to understand it. The trickiest situations are the "gaslighting" scenarious, wherein an abuser gives out contradictory signals -- My term for that is "crazymaking," and sadly, sometimes a dysfunctional family's whole style of communication can be based on a "crazymaking" dynamic.

On the other hand, I have found it to be true *without fail* that if another person utters words which I find offensive, but which they never intended to BE offensive, when I point out to that person the way I understood what he/she meant, that person ALWAYS will sincerely apologize at once -- unless he or she meant the perceived insult to BE insulting. In which case, hostility will erupt, as it virtually always does when the targeted person/group insists on his/her/their personal dignity in the face of abuse.

It's true, of course, that it's just about always easier to determine the intent of a speaker when one has multiple senses to bring to the interpretation (visual signals, hearing tone of voice, etc.). Which can make our forum discussion that much more tricky.

However, if one's heart's intent is always to respect the communication partner(s), it will be much, much easier to repair any mistaken notion caused by the kind of writing which is clear to the writer, but unclear -- and potentially painful -- to the reader.

Does this make sense?

[23]

On the other hand, I have found it to be true *without fail* that if another person utters words which I find offensive, but which they never intended to BE offensive, when I point out to that person the way I understood what he/she meant, that person ALWAYS will sincerely apologize at once -- unless he or she meant the perceived insult to BE insulting. In which case, hostility will erupt, as it virtually always does when the targeted person/group insists on his/her/their personal dignity in the face of abuse.

Having been at both ends of the dynamic that you describe above, Kate... on numerous occasions... I am prompted to ask for a clarification or two.

What, exactly, would the other person be apologizing for?

If he or she had no intent of contributing towards your feeling offended by his words, what would be an appropriate apology in your eyes?

Is there an expectation that the wordsmith should assume some responsibility for your reaction to his words, even if he had no intention of contributing to you feeling offended?

TIA.

[Kate]

23 --

What I'm talking about is good will, and the desire to express that good will. And perhaps you have correctly pinpointed that I should have been much clearer about that -- "apology" may not be the best word for what I have in mind.

For one thing, before leaving the term "apology" behind, I'd like to point out that the words "I'm sorry" are often used in a context where the speaker is not implying any guilt whatsoever. Let me give a hypothetical example:

Let's say I run into an old friend I haven't seen in some time, and with whom I've had no other communication in the interim. Let's say this friend's mother is someone about whom BOTH of us had snarked for certain eccentric obsessive behavior which had inconvenienced my friend. If I should happen to say something "wise-guyish" along the lines of, "So is your mom still being a pain in the ass?," and if my friend starts to cry, whereupon I learn that friend's mom had died the week before -- well, I don't know about you, but the first words out of my mouth would be, "I'm so sorry! I had no idea; how are you? Please tell me what happened." Clearly I had nothing to do with the death of mom, but I'm sorry to have inadvertantly been the trigger of my friend's fresh bout of pain.

I intentionally made my hypothetical friend's gender unknown, because it doesn't matter. To me, this is a question of basic decency between human beings. I want to communicate that I care about that person's wellbeing. What difference does it make to that goal -- respecting the person in question and conveying a bit of humankindness -- if my triggering of someone else's pain was intentional or inadvertant?

If you go around the aisle of a supermarket quickly and inadvertantly bump into someone, don't you say, "Sorry!"? Isn't that just fundamental human decency? Or, if you didn't mean to cause physical discomfort, do you just go on your swift way without a word?

I see no distinction between that physical scenario and one involving emotional pain. Maybe I don't know what effect my words on a given topic will have on someone else; then let's say that person then lets me know that what I said was painful for her/him. If I respect the inherent dignity of this person with whom I'm having a conversation, why wouldn't I say, "I'm so sorry; I didn't know it had that meaning for you." Why is that any skin off my nose?

Or maybe I wouldn't use the classic apology phrase, "I'm sorry." Maybe I would use alternate means to communicate my good will. Something like, "Thank you for telling me that about yourself; I won't forget it." This conveys good will. What's wrong with that? I'm not "keeping score." What's wrong with being what I call "emotionally generous"?

I'm not so full of pride or defensiveness to refuse to acknowledge that I caused pain to another -- why should I be so cold? Even if I bear absolutely no "objective" responsibility because it had to do with being unable to read someone else's mind, it doesn't IN ANY WAY diminish my own dignity to say, "I wish I hadn't been the cause of your pain."

One of the most destructive insults I've heard tossed around a lot is, "Don't be so damned sensitive!" What on earth is wrong with the default position being one of sensitivity to other human beings? This is sorely lacking today. Civility is tossed out the window, otherwise people may feel they will appear "weak" to others. In my book, this is useless rubbish.

That's what I mean about the difference between "power over" and "power within." "Power over" is constantly keeping score. "Am I one up or one down with this other person. Where do I rank? I'm not going to cede a square inch to this other person out of generosity; that attitude is for suckers!"

"Power within" takes the opposite stance. We don't live in a zero sum game. Acknowledging respect for you doesn't diminish my own sense of myself in any way, because I don't derive my self-respect from someone else's opinion of me, but rather from my own lifelong efforts to have personal integrity, to be honest to the best of my ability, and to learn from my own mistakes.

Being "emotionally generous" is NOT AT ALL the same as being a doormat. No, it's not giving to another out of neediness, but giving to another out of the fullness of good will in my heart. If I were a doormat, anything I give to another is an attempt to barter for his/her approval. It would all revolve around worrying so much about my own image in another's eyes that I wouldn't even be able to SEE THE OTHER PERSON in his/her full reality.

Here are two very different responses to (let's say, in keeping with the topic of misogyny) a woman feeling demeaned by something a man said, for reasons not clear to that man.

1) "You're too sensitive, period."

[This response comes from someone who feels entitled to tell another human being how they ought to feel and closes the door to any further understanding.]

2) "I can tell this is a sensitive topic for you. Let me assure you I have no desire to offend. Please explain why you think/feel/see things that way? I'd like to understand you better."

Which response do you think better respects the inherent dignity of another human being?

Now, maybe the woman in question seems "objectively" to be unfair to the man. There are direct ways of communicating that he believes he was not dealt with fairly, NONE OF WHICH necessitate being in any way disrespectful. On the other hand, maybe if he remains thoughtful, he might discover that her sensitivity arises out of very traumatic past experiences that had nothing to do with him. Wouldn't a kind man then offer some understanding?

There are, sad to say, racists and misogynists in my own extended family. In past instances, I have asked them not to use the "n"-word or the "c"-word in my presence because they are personally offensive to me. And when they mocked me in return, I just said, "Fine. So long as you refuse to treat me with respect in this regard, I'm not going to be able to speak with you." Once I told them I found such language hurtful, why wouldn't they who professes to care about and love their family just cease and desist for my sake? Even IF they think I'm "too sensitive"? I've found in my experience (ymmv) that racists and misogynists instead seem to delight in continuing in their demeaning language, as it shores up their sense of themselves as "better than" -- they need to feel they have "power over."

At that point, I walk away. Because I'm no doormat.

However, when both parties involved in some form of hurtful communication have fundamental good will toward each other and open hearts, it's not uncommon to hear them BOTH apologize TO EACH OTHER. And oftentimes, they might even end up laughing together and respecting each other even more. Two-sided emotional generosity is a wonderful thing.

[Sounder]

Excellent example of matching sensibilities with the writing Kate.

One reason, for me, that RI maintains its appeal is the significant if not greater contribution that women provide to this site.

Got to go to work, but good thread, (although I'll always wonder why people say some of the things they do.)

[hava1]

That's a bit of a mnipulative de-contexting. I said "bitch" to non defined entities within a hypothetical, somewhat satirical, description of American Dream internet persona. If I recall, I said he was one of them good geeks that the bitches manipulate and take over. Not a very offensive diagnosis of AD in the context of the thread at question. You then implied that using the Bitch word, in general (without at this case even directing it at a known-specific person) is somehow offensive on my behalf. In the context of this board, which had seen actual verbal and non verbal assaults, I found your comment actually derogatory towards me, for using a really strong word in a very classy, quiet environment. Being a foreigner, and English being my second language, I felt "put in the corner". Now I see you are doing that again, by calling on other people to say whether they think that calling THEM (or You) a bitch would be offensive. I find this to be a demonstration of same.

was that oneupsmanship back on the psych thread ?

Hey, PW, that was not very nice to shame me as "using bad language", when in fact, I am more uptodate , intuitively, on that issue, than your comment to me. try to be a bit more collegial, in the spirit of feminism..

Are you being funny, or are you upset with me? We haven't really reclaimed the term over here, manifesto or no, "bitch" is still derogatory in common usage, as far as I know. Perhaps I'm out of touch. I have my own opinions on the strategy of oppressed groups reclaiming derogatory terms for their own usage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Come to think of it someone called me a bitch once a few years ago and I was very offended. Then the person who'd used the word was offended that I was offended and attempted to claim he used it as a term of endearment in that context. I believe that kind of usage was in trend at that time. Whatever, I did not like it, maybe that's just me.

What say you other RI females, do you think getting called a bitch is hip and cool and all OK now?

[23]

23 --

What I'm talking about is good will, and the desire to express that good will. And perhaps you have correctly pinpointed that I should have been much clearer about that -- "apology" may not be the best word for what I have in mind.

I suspected that that was the case, which is why I asked what I did. Thanks bunches.

Your good will is my compassion, though. Or the ability to feel another person's pain and taking it into account via how you articulate your ideas.

[Saurian Tail]

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous;
love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly;
it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails...But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

1 Corinthians 13:4-7,13

My quotation of the bible above comes from a gnostic/universal truth perspective. If one can simply abide in love many wrongs can be righted. A kind word turns away wrath.

A more accurate interpretation of "Love never fails" is "Love never runs out". The source of love is as big as the universe. No one can steal love that is supplied from within ... it is only when you bottle it up and try to protect it that love is diminished.

And as Kate so beautifully points out, this has nothing whatsoever to do with being a doormat.

-ST

[marycarnival]

What say you other RI females, do you think getting called a bitch is hip and cool and all OK now?

I pretty much agree with c2w on this one...I would add that I do have a handful of close female friends with whom I will use the term 'bitch' in a way meant to convey a sort of endearment...I don't, however use this term with women I don't know very well or with strangers. It all depends on context, and the implicit understanding between the parties on what meaning the word is meant to convey. On the whole, 'bitch' is a derogatory term.

Y'know, the term that I have always had a difficult time with is 'pussy'. Not in reference to a vagina per se, but when it's used in a manner denoting weakness...like 'pussy'='woman'='weak'. I may be a 'bitch' sometimes, but I'm not weak or ineffectual, and I think that this is true of most women. Now, of course the term 'pussy' is generally (or perhaps entirely) used derogatorily toward men, and not women, but it puts woman in the 'lesser' category...like the ultimate insult for a man is to be compared to a woman.

[Nordic]

Men call men "bitches". As in "hey, today you're my bitch".

It's usually like that, "my bitch".

Oops, and I said I'd quit posting in this thread.

Just sharing info, no point other than that intended!

[charlie meadows]

Much of the conversation here in this thread has conflated two essentially different forms of communication. The difference between the written word and the spoken word is paramount. The spoken word is formulated not only with the voice box, but with the entire body. And it is heard with the entire body. Pitch, timbre, emphasis and duration etc.--the music of speech--overpower any denotation attached to the written word, rendering it mute, so to speak. Any word when written which can be interpreted in a way not intended is best avoided. Easier said than done.

The schools of thought (those with which I am at all familiar) from antiquity [and forward] which elevate the use of words to magick almost unilaterally give the alchemical power to the spoken word, and the written word only when intoned. That is not to say that the written word cannot be a factor in great tragedy. Only that the circumstance is very different.

[marycarnival]

Men call men "bitches". As in "hey, today you're my bitch".

It's usually like that, "my bitch".

Oops, and I said I'd quit posting in this thread.

Just sharing info, no point other than that intended!

Totally, Nordic.

Do you find that guys use the term 'bitch' in this manner in an ironic/'endearing' way as some women do, or is it always a put-down? Like on that show 'It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia', where the one guy walks in and says, 'Hey, bitches!' to his buddies, one of whom is a woman...or is even that a sort of back-handed put-down disguised as chumminess?