US Presidential Election 2020

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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:54 pm

dada » 15 Jan 2021 22:33 wrote:cross-posting from the Year Zero thread, because I couldn't decide which thread it belonged in

I can't help thinking that in the puppet-master narrative, the puppet masters are free of the narrative. They just use it to manipulate us, to keep us from seeing what is really going on. But what is really going on is that puppet masters are manipulating us, using the puppet-master narrative to keep us from seeing what is really going on.

The argument has a fractal quality to it.


I agree. Because "they" actually don't have total control, as "they" found out to their great surprise during the French Revolution. But wardens do have various well-honed techniques to maintain the illusion that they are in total control, which is a big part of why they often effectively are.

And this is also why I don't think giving the wardens carte blanche is the most helpful response to a prison riot, no matter how scary and odious one judges the prisoners.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:00 pm

Blue » 15 Jan 2021 22:39 wrote:
dada » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:33 pm wrote:cross-posting from the Year Zero thread, because I couldn't decide which thread it belonged in

I can't help thinking that in the puppet-master narrative, the puppet masters are free of the narrative. They just use it to manipulate us, to keep us from seeing what is really going on. But what is really going on is that puppet masters are manipulating us, using the puppet-master narrative to keep us from seeing what is really going on.

The argument has a fractal quality to it.
Fractal patterns are common in nature, including in the geometric patterns of a tortoise shell, the structure of a snail shell, the leaves of a succulent plant that repeat to create an intricate pattern, and the frost pattern on a car's windshield in winter.

Fractals have the distinctive feature of a repeating geometry with structure at multiple scales, and are found everywhere, from Romanesco broccoli to ferns, and even at larger scales such as salt flats, mountains, coastlines and clouds. The shapes of trees and mountains are also self-similar, such that a branch looks like a small tree and a rocky outcrop like a small mountain.

Sorry, got side tracked...


Fractals are a mathematical consequence of many "bottom-up" patterns of organization. Perhaps complex organic structures are just fractals all the way (up and) down?
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:04 pm

stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:54 pm wrote:This is a big reason why I don't think giving the wardens carte blanche is the most helpful response to a prison riot, no matter how scary and odious one judges the prisoners.


Sorry, the only thing your last statement illustrates to me is why metaphor is no substitute for observation. But allow me to fix it:

"This is a big reason why I don't think giving fascists their desired camouflage is the most helpful response when they try to overthrow the legislature, no matter how scary and odiously one judges the lawmakers."
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Blue » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:37 pm

You are saying the Capitol Police should not have been enabled to stop the riot (note: they were disarmed for some reason, oops by the Chief Steven Sund who has resigned, wink nod) no matter how scary the rioters were...

And this is also why I don't think giving the wardens carte blanche is the most helpful response to a prison riot, no matter how scary and odious one judges the prisoners. said stickdog99
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:50 pm

JackRiddler » 15 Jan 2021 23:04 wrote:
stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:54 pm wrote:This is a big reason why I don't think giving the wardens carte blanche is the most helpful response to a prison riot, no matter how scary and odious one judges the prisoners.


Sorry, the only thing your last statement illustrates to me is why metaphor is no substitute for observation. But allow me to fix it:

"This is a big reason why I don't think giving fascists their desired camouflage is the most helpful response when they try to overthrow the legislature, no matter how scary and odiously one judges the lawmakers."


OK, Please believe me that I fully appreciate your argument. I have now heard it about a hundred times, and the combination of its logical and emotional power is almost irresistible.

But the problem with your continued insistence that we all must first and foremost take this staged event at face value is three-fold:

1) The yahoos had absolutely zero chance of succeeding except in their Q-Anon fueled fantasy world in which mysterious non-existent "heroic" powers that be were prepared to join them in their "glorious revolution".

2) Had they had any chance of succeeding, their cuckcoup would have stopped cold by the agencies we pay billions to "defend" our oligarchs.

3) Had reality somehow morphed into a fantasy-world in which a small band of armed yahoos can overthrow an Empire unopposed, a Demopublican oligarch handmaiden would have been temporarily replaced with a Republicrat "strongman" (who would have then faced the full wrath of every establishment force, including his own political party and Fox News, 24-7 unless and until he resigned in disgrace)

They simply could not let this rabble rule. Think of the precedent.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Blue » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:17 pm

Staged event, yep, it was planned and staged by Trump and his cult followers. Everyone involved should do time.

1. Lie. Yahoos were cover for serious intervention, lots of pics of them stealing things including electronic devices. And those looking for kidnapping and killing.
2. They did not succeed due to a system in place and basically two fucking cops. One led the asshole Qanon from Iowa and his buddies up the stairs away from the elected officials of the USA. Another cop shot and killed a domestic terrorist climbing into the broken door to get to America's elected leaders inner sanctum.
3. Uh, can't respond, incoherent.

I have no problem saying You are either with protecting the US Capitol and our Representatives or

You are not.






stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:50 pm wrote:
JackRiddler » 15 Jan 2021 23:04 wrote:
stickdog99 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:54 pm wrote:This is a big reason why I don't think giving the wardens carte blanche is the most helpful response to a prison riot, no matter how scary and odious one judges the prisoners.


Sorry, the only thing your last statement illustrates to me is why metaphor is no substitute for observation. But allow me to fix it:

"This is a big reason why I don't think giving fascists their desired camouflage is the most helpful response when they try to overthrow the legislature, no matter how scary and odiously one judges the lawmakers."


OK, Please believe me that I fully appreciate your argument. I have now heard it about a hundred times, and the combination of its logical and emotional power is almost irresistible.

But the problem with your continued insistence that we all must first and foremost take this staged event at face value is three-fold:

1) The yahoos had absolutely zero chance of succeeding except in their Q-Anon fueled fantasy world in which mysterious non-existent "heroic" powers that be were prepared to join them in their "glorious revolution".

2) Had they had any chance of succeeding, their cuckcoup would have stopped cold by the agencies we pay billions to "defend" our oligarchs.

3) Had reality somehow morphed into a fantasy-world in which a small band of armed yahoos can overthrow an Empire unopposed, a Demopublican oligarch handmaiden would have been temporarily replaced with a Republicrat "strongman" (who would have then faced the full wrath of every establishment force, including his own political party and Fox News, 24-7 unless and until he resigned in disgrace)

They simply could not let this rabble rule. Think of the precedent.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby kelley » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:55 pm

This rabble has ruled by proxy for the past four years.

They won't suddenly disappear overnight.

This is only the beginning. For example, it took ten years (and a book deal) for one lunatic to pass from jailbird to chancellor to absolute leader.

To my eyes, Pompeo is jumping the gun and salivating a little too openly at new prospects just put forth.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby kelley » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:17 pm

John Sullivan detained on federal charges:

https://theintercept.com/2021/01/14/cap ... i-babbitt/

John Sullivan, a self-described activist for racial justice who filmed the fatal shooting of the QAnon cultist Ashli Babbitt during the storming of the U.S. Capitol, was detained in Utah on Thursday on federal charges of interfering with efforts by the police to stop the riot.

According to an affidavit submitted to a federal court in Washington, D.C., the FBI determined that Sullivan was not just an observer but a participant in the riot, based on a review of nearly 90 minutes of raw footage of the raid that he recorded on his phone and posted on YouTube. He is being held by the Tooele County Sheriff’s Office near his home in Sandy, Utah.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:42 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:43 pm wrote:
Belligerent Savant » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:50 am wrote:[...]

Also: i expect this is largely already known within these circles -- or is that presumptuous of me? -- but terms like "far right" or "far left", while 'real' elements, are also useful framing mechanisms routinely utilized by establishment media (essentially the propaganda arm of these letter agency 'black ops' units) and 'alternative sources' to perpetuate divisive rhetoric and sentiment, among other ends.

Misdirection and white noise: control mechanisms.


These are not bad as platitudes we can all agree with.

They do not compel the conclusions you seem to be indicating in this case.

Most importantly, they do not scrub the Capitol riot of its publicly self-evident fascist ('far right') provenance and engineering. Your examples of military-connected earpiece men do not suggest otherwise.



I'm honored you half-recognize my 'platitude'.

My position is NOT that there was no 'far right'/fascist element to the planning of this, FFS. That's a misrepresentation.

My position is that it's not so simple and tidy as the mainstream media and/or the standard rubes on the so-called 'left' would like to frame it.

And what is this pearl-clutching, this clamoring to have the culprits hanged/tried to the 'fullest extent of the law'?

WTF is this all about? Why this blind loyalty to a system that has historically subjugated and scumbagged the non-wealthy?

What sort of delusion is this?

I'm most concerned about the f'ing FASCISTS that ACTUALLY have the ability to affect policy and lives of the populace. Those fascists -- up there in positions of influence/power -- concern me far more than the racist/yahoo aspiring fascists staging events with minimal, at best, power to change anything.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:24 pm

I'm most concerned about the f'ing FASCISTS that ACTUALLY have the ability to affect policy and lives of the populace. Those fascists -- up there in positions of influence/power -- concern me far more than the racist/yahoo aspiring fascists staging events with minimal, at best, power to change anything

Why is this an either/or situation for some? OR deluded that there was never any real threat, that the PTB had it under control all the time?

The event at the Capitol is the exact scariest combination of fascists in charge and a riled up population willing do to whatever it takes that some folks keep citing as a reason to be more concerned about the surveillance state and the legal actions against the stormers.

One need not believe MSNBC, FOX, NPR, or any other media source, as there is an insurmountable wall of evidence from the participants of what they did and what they intended to do. Do you think there was some magic bullet waiting in the wings to stop this thing if it ever threatened to spiral out of control? From where do you draw this conclusion?

Donald Trump has been president for four years, has with the help of the Republican Party stacked every federal agency and every judicial district with hand-picked Republican choices, yet somehow when you think of the people in charge, he and his get a pass? Insanity.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:34 pm

.

It's not an "either/or". It's a priority order, focusing on the more pressing threat. Clearly, the fascists in power are a more pressing threat than pseudo-fascists that will never be granted entry to power.

See 2020, where fascism/totalitarianism/egregious transfer of wealth occurred under a guise of a 'pandemic', and yet there is this mania over racist yahoos -- likely aided by intel ops -- 'storming' a symbolic structure of fake 'democracy'.

And what of the driving forces that inspire citizens to take such drastic action? This calls to mind, mentioned by others here earlier, the narratives put forth shortly after 9/11. Blind hatred at 'terrorists' with nary an assessment as to the underlying factors that would drive a human towards terrorist acts.
(Putting aside, of course, the false narratives/storylines around the actual culprits involved in 9/11. The parallels to current events aren't coincidental).
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby mentalgongfu2 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:46 pm

Perhaps you misunderstood, as I can't imagine you are being so deliberately obtuse. In the example of the storming of the Capitol, we have the fascists in power who not just allowed but promoted a pressing threat from what you call pseudo-fascists in order to achieve their goals.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:49 pm

.
Yes, absolutely; I can see how I may have caused confusion.

I'm referring more generally to the sentiment towards the dupes that were gathered at the Capital, rather than -- as you point out -- the fascists in power that allowed/promoted the act. There is more hatred displayed towards the 'footsoldiers' rather than the 'generals'.
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby stickdog99 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:50 am

Blue » 16 Jan 2021 00:17 wrote:Staged event, yep, it was planned and staged by Trump and his cult followers. Everyone involved should do time.

1. Lie. Yahoos were cover for serious intervention, lots of pics of them stealing things including electronic devices. And those looking for kidnapping and killing.
2. They did not succeed due to a system in place and basically two fucking cops. One led the asshole Qanon from Iowa and his buddies up the stairs away from the elected officials of the USA. Another cop shot and killed a domestic terrorist climbing into the broken door to get to America's elected leaders inner sanctum.
3. Uh, can't respond, incoherent.

I have no problem saying You are either with protecting the US Capitol and our Representatives or

You are not.


OK. So I guess I should also be executed for my disbelief that those yahoos could overthrow the facade of rational-legal authority that US oligarchs have both demanded and paid lip service to since at least the unraveling of the Business Plot in 1934?

I keep wondering what the supposed endgame was. So they find and hang Pence. OK, then what? The rest of Congress just says, "¡Viva la Revolución!" and Q-Anon rides out on a white horse dragging Hillary Clinton behind him?
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Re: US Presidential Election 2020

Postby dada » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:17 am

Anyway my point was not that the puppet-master narrative is fractal mindcontrol, but a recursive subroutine of bullshit. Bullshit at every magnitude, from the reptile illuminati, to whoever it is that you want to argue that your puppet master is. Big tech and the liberal elite, the corporate control board, whatever. The difference between Qbert and any variation you can come up with is barely a matter of slight degree.

Like a fractal in that the pattern of bullshit repeats endlessly. You have to accept the puppet-master narrative to "resist the puppet masters." I reject the premise of the puppet-master narrative. On its face.

I don't subscribe to the puppet-master narrative, is what I'm saying. Maybe that makes me like the puppet masters in your narrative. They are above the narrative, using it to manipulate us. So if I'm saying I'm above the narrative, I must be one of them.
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