VA. Tech-- a PC liberal/rightwing joint venture?

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Roth

Postby professorpan » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:02 pm

So, Roth, you make all sorts of statements that can't be backed up with "facts" because all "facts" are government propaganda?

Man, talk about circular arguments!

Sorry, dude, but I don't argue with people who can't and won't take the time to back up their assertions. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who has followed our back-and-forth that you simply spout jingoistic anecdotes without even bothering to check your facts.

You're not worth my time. Toodles.
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Postby nomo » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:32 pm

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... DTL&nl=fix


Everyone Should Get A Gun!

Then no one would kill anyone, right? Also: Guns are fun. Americans like fun!

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Friday, April 20, 2007



You know what offers just tremendous amounts of pleasure? Shooting guns.

It's true. Shotguns, handguns, rifles, BB guns, squirt guns, you name it. Try it yourself: Just head out to a shooting range and have the gun boys yank you some clay pigeons and blast those things out of the sky and oh my God it's just a ridiculous barefaced thrill, a sense of godlike power, a rush of adrenaline to go along with a hot buzz of precision and concentration and the smell of gunpowder and much manly macho grunting.

I am not at all joking. I've done it. I've even enjoyed it, quite a bit. Sport shooting is an intense rush, a unique sort of pleasure, scary and powerful and deadly and fascinating and, in its deep, pure violence, rather beautiful. What's more, guns can be gorgeous pieces of precision engineering, sexy and brutal and often superbly made and so dumbly phallic and obviously homoerotic it makes the men of the NRA tingle every night, secretly.

But let this be known: Guns are also, quite clearly, something that could exit the human experience entirely and we would, very simply, only be the better for it. Much, much better. Oh yes we would.

Look, it's easy enough to point out all the obvious gun-control arguments the brutal Virginia Tech massacre slaps across the face of the pro-gun culture. Guns are far too easy to obtain. Gun fetishism is far too prevalent and glamorized and legitimized in the States. Guns are often easier to get hold of than a driver's license and we don't even perform instant background checks, and in places like Texas it's now easier than ever not only to own a gun, but the state's newly expanded gun laws mean it's A-OK to shoot and kill someone for pretty much looking at you sideways, and if you do, not only is it unlikely you will go to jail for it, many Texans will actually applaud.

But the truth is, these issues aren't really the point. And as many politicians -- even Democrats -- are already pointing out, new gun-control legislation in the wake of VT isn't exactly a priority, mostly due to the vicious power of the tiny-but-vocal gun lobby and especially given the faux-cowboy gun-lovin' warmonger who currently holds the White House veto stamp in his insolent little fist right now.

But even the obvious fact that no new gun-control laws are likely to emerge hasn't stopped the pro-gunners from tossing up what is easily my favorite pro-gun argument of all time, one that's popped back up on blogs and forums and in right-wing columns all over the Net in response to VT, like some sort of cute, thuggish mantra of happy cancerous violence.

It goes like this: If only more people had guns, no one would get shot. If only everyone was armed and everyone was packing heat and everyone knew everyone else could kill them at a moment's notice, why, no one would dare shoot each other for fear of getting killed themselves before they even had a chance to enjoy their own murderous rage.

In other words, the solution to the too-many-guns-too-easily problem? Even more guns.

More to the point: If the professors and students at Virginia Tech just so happened to carry their own swell Glock 9mm in their backpacks or in their purses just like insane sullen loner Cho Seung-Hui, maybe he would've been less likely to go on that rampage because, gosh golly, he'd surely know he'd be quickly shot dead by 100 trigger-ready students as soon as he fired the first shot. And what satisfaction is there in a brutal gun rampage if you don't get to kill more than a handful of kids? It's such perfectly insane logic, they should print it on the NRA brochure. Hell, maybe they do.

I love this line of thinking. It's like bashing your own skull with a brick and calling it intellectual stimulation.

Hell, it worked great for the Cold War, didn't it? Every major nation enjoys a grudging, caveman-esque respect for each other's massive nuke stockpile and whoever can annihilate the world the most times over gets the most power and we all live happily ever after in a brutal, anxious, fear-based society, some juvenile vision of a macho Wild West that never really existed. Beautiful.

It doesn't matter how overtly reckless and idiotic the "let's arm everyone" argument is. What matters is millions actually believe it. What matters is how many people, especially many who make the laws of the land (or coerce and lobby those who do) still believe this is some sort of core, defining ethos of the United States and even the world. It is, you have to admit, one hell of a way to run a planet.

But it is not the only way.

Here is the flip-side argument. It is at once simple and obvious and makes a calm sort of moral sense, and is therefore is sneered at by every gun lover and bitter Second Amendment misinterpreter and NRA lobbyist in the land.

It goes like this: If all guns were banned outright tomorrow, or even if we took the strict British/Swedish approach and only allowed them for hunting and in highly controlled shooting clubs, well, guns would slowly but surely disappear from the popular culture. As a fetish, as a gang weapon, as some sort of bogus macho self-defense argument, as an obvious and too-easy means to shocking schoolyard massacre, guns and the fear-based culture they create would, slowly but surely, fizzle and die.

It would not be instantaneous. It would not be easy. But slowly, as manufacturing largely ceased and gun shows shut down and fewer and fewer new firearms entered the channel and the black market slowly dried up from lack of decent supply, and as the upcoming generation simply wouldn't know a world where guns were prevalent and easy and stupid as paint, well, guns and the numb ultraviolence they inspire would disappear within a single generation, maybe two.

I know, it would ruin the all-American fun of shooting. I realize a beloved American hobby would have to be replaced by, well, roughly 10 thousand other options. I know it would infuriate countless collectors and responsible gun owners who merely appreciate the craftsmanship, the gun-maker's art, the simple joy of shooting deadly weapons into controlled targets and who have zero urge to kill anything, ever. I know.

But, well, so what? Giving up such a rather hollow, morally indefensible, outdated pleasure seems a tiny price to pay for the end result of a dramatically less violent America, a less suspicious, reactionary worldview, a nation not shot through with an undercurrent of fear and blood-drenched headlines and childish notions of angry, armed retaliation.

Hell, we've done it before, with all sorts of other harsh social practices and beliefs that, we finally realized, served the soul of our species not at all and actually caused much deep harm. Slavery. Hangings. The slaughter of Indians. Monarchical rule. Chamber pots. Flamethrowers. Smoking on airplanes. Lack of women's suffrage. Eugenics.

Really, has the time not come for guns to exit the wary American dream? Can we not even imagine it?
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Postby Sweejak » Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:30 pm

...I think the culture would adjust and most or all of the 'stigma' of gun-carrying would evaporate.


Yes I think your probably right, and I think most people would choose not to carry them. I think there is a natural difference in attitude between the country and the city.

When you say "true gun control" do you mean a scenario where virtually all guns in the world had been removed? I don't think that's possible.


Neither do I. I was referring to places where it might be really possible to have a gun free zone. Aircraft seem like a good place. So, in that case would you feel the taking of guns, say putting them in a secure place for the duration of the flight, even tho someone may have boxcutter and hijack the plane, be a intrusion on your concepts of freedom?

It's the mainstream (if you ask me) that has manufactured this whole hyped up deal about the "horrors" of self-defense. Mainstream academia, and the media, and Hollywood.

I see it both ways, I mean, look at the film 300. But I've seen what your talking about in my kid's grade school where "conflict resolution" seemed to be all about a jaw dropping rationale of bowing down rather than addressing the problem.

By the way, have they posted this story at the other thread...about a previous college campus shooting in Virginia five years ago...before there were these on-campus prohibitions?


Yes, these guys were trained police cadets/Law students I think. Students or police? I'd say the fact they were trained and actually had weapons on hand was more important. There are many many stories of guns being used properly in defense and probably just as many that show the opposite, not to mention accidents.

Well, I don't have much more to say about this topic. Basically I'm for the Constitution, I think the government, especially the current one, is an armed predator and that to give up guns goes against common sense. But I don't really see anyone here advocating a complete ban.

Couple of bits:

If average people can't own guns, then I don't want those people carrying them either.


Feinstein is a strong proponent of gun control, yet is known to have carried concealed handguns herself with a normally nearly impossible to obtain California carry permit - few people, other than politicians and celebrities, are able to obtain California CCW permits. At one time, she was the only person in San Francisco to possess a concealed carry permit.
------------------
Puppy Shoots Florida Man
The Sydney Morning Herald - UK
9-10-4
(DPA) -- A puppy reportedly saved its own life when its paw slipped and tripped the trigger of a gun that its US owner planned to shoot it with.
http://rense.com/general57/puppyshootsfloridaman.htm
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Postby rothbardian » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:15 pm

Nice talking with you Sweejak. Same goes for everybody else. I have to bow out for now and give others any last word. I am way, way, way out of time. I'm sure lots of peole here know what that's like.

I'd rather I didn't make some of my jabbing comments about "fig leaves" and the NAACP and such...but when it's coming at me hard and fast, I can tend to react a little negatively. I'll work on that. This board is still five times more civil then, say, FreeRepublic. I guess I just wish many others here could see the sinister "end game" the elites have in mind, the same way I do (and a number of others here).

Just to address your one comment Swee, about weapons on planes--Maybe in a truly free world, airlines could give the option to customers, like "smoking" and "non-smoking " flights. The reality is that outside of these evil elites in recent years, very, very few people are interested in hijacking airplanes... if it weren't for Cheney there wouldn't have been a 9/11.

Apparently in the 'old days' it was neither here not there as to whether someone (like a police officer) happened to carry his weapon.

Gotta go.
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Postby Sweejak » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:24 am

Later Roth.

Interestingly, after checking out foreign reactions, some are talking about banning violent video games. A fair amount of social criticism as well.

Some bloggers compare Russian young people's all-pervading cynicism to their U.S. peers' belief in the American Dream: "Russian students tell the world to buzz off, but only under their breath, while Americans have a sacred belief in their dream. That's the most terrible thing of all.


Sheesh.
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Postby nomo » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:49 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tec ... YCMa0DW7oF

Iraq students show Virginia Tech support

By BUSHRA JUHI, Associated Press Writer 55 minutes ago

BAGHDAD - Students in Baghdad, where universities have been hard-hit by violence, said they were saddened by last week's massacre at Virginia Tech and hung up a banner to express their solidarity with "our brothers in humanity and in pursuing knowledge."

"We want to let the whole world know that we do not support terrorism anywhere," said Yassir Nazar, head of the student union at Baghdad Technology University, who organized the hanging of the banner near the campus gate.

It reads, "We, the students of Technology University, denounce the attack at Virginia Tech. We extend our condolences to the families of the victims who faced a situation as bad as
Iraq's universities do. The sanctity of campuses must be protected around the world."

"We have lost many friends and professors," Nazar said Monday. "But in spite of our wounds, we want to show our solidarity with the students of Virginia Tech who are our brothers in humanity and in pursuing knowledge."

Student Asma Suhail echoed that sentiment.

"We only want to study and we have nothing to do with any problems," she said, wearing a pink and white head scarf as she stood on the campus. "We stand with the students of Virginia Tech because as Iraqis living in this country, we suffer more than any other people ... so that we can feel the suffering the students of Virginia having been through."

In Baghdad and other Iraqi cities, scores of students have been killed and their campuses targeted by Iraqi insurgents who often regard universities as bastions of Western thought and political activities they oppose.

More than 200 university professors have been killed in the past few years, and thousands have fled the country to teach at universities abroad, said Basil al-Khateeb, spokesman for the Iraqi ministry of higher education.

On Feb. 25, a female suicide bomber triggered a ball bearing-packed charge, killing at least 41 people at a mostly Shiite college whose main gate was left littered with blood-soaked student notebooks and papers amid the bodies.

On Jan. 16, two car bombs exploded as students from Mustansiriyah University lined up for rides home, killing at least 70 people and wounding at least 133.

Baghdad Technology University can seem more like a war zone than a college campus, despite its sports fields, modern buildings and a small garden with wooden benches.

Concrete barriers block nearby streets to keep out suicide car bombers. Students from Iraq's complex mix of Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds and Christians walk peacefully across the campus, but the sound of ambulance and police sirens, military convoys driving past and U.S. helicopters flying overhead is nearly constant.

All students are searched before entering the campus video cell phones — which insurgents sometimes use to set off hidden bombs — are banned. Some students fall behind in their studies or miss exams because attacks or fighting prevent them from reaching campus. Baghdad's frequent power outages also can make it difficult for them to study at home at night.

Although many Baghdad Technology University students regard Americans as much safer and luckier than they are, they were saddened by the tragedy at Virginia Tech, in which 32 people were gunned down by student Seung-Hui Cho.

"We denounce the shooting in Virginia Tech because it targeted students of knowledge," said Hassan Abdul-Karim, a junior engineering major who said he has lost two friends to deadly insurgent attacks in his neighborhood of Baghdad. "Al-Qaida in Iraq does the same thing here in an effort to make ignorance prevail so its ideology can win."

Zahra Hussein, a fourth-year engineering student, said she was shocked by the Virginia Tech killings in a country that is so much more peaceful and secure than Iraq. "For us, such attacks have become normal, even when they target students," she said.

Mohammed Akram, a third-year chemical engineering student, said Iraq has seen many examples of recluses who have become suicide attackers. "But we are determined to complete our studies and do all we can for our country," he said, as several friends standing around him on the campus nodded their heads in agreement.
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Postby sunny » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:28 pm

Gun control? Not gonna happen in the good ole US of A, but it would be nice if the mentally ill could be kept from purchasing weapons. That is my, and most liberals', idea of what gun control would look like. I don't want to take guns from law-abiding citizens. Heck, while I personally hate guns and have never owned one (due to the murder of a close family member) I grew up around guns and have no problem with citizens owning them. But please. How was Cho able to purchase those guns? Does that make any kind of common sense that he was able to, apparently, legally purchase hand guns?
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Re: VA. Tech-- a PC liberal/rightwing joint venture?

Postby beeline » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:53 am

Link

Posted on Thu, Aug. 4, 2011

Va. Tech reports gunman near campus dining hall

The Associated Press

BLACKSBURG, Va. - Va. Tech officials say a gunman has been reported on campus.

The university issued an alert on its website at 9:37 a.m. Thursday telling students and employees to stay inside and secure doors.

The alert says the gunman was reported near a dining center. In 2007, a student gunman killed 32 students and faculty and then killed himself
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