9/11 Truth Movement vs. 9/11 Truth

[orz]

thank you and good night.

[AlanStrangis]

Gawd, almost noone is discussing the evidence of the actual crimes of one day.

Because I thought we were discussing WHY 'truthers' and 'activists' often don't see eye to eye, not trying to duplicate it?

[insert collapsing tower with numbered arrows here]

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Gawd, almost noone is discussing the evidence of the actual crimes of one day.

Because I thought we were discussing WHY 'truthers' and 'activists' often don't see eye to eye, not trying to duplicate it?

Er, ok.

I'm just seeing way too much bandwith given to scattershot introspection and outright discrediting of the 9/11 truth movement just because of a few.

Plus that fekkin' "9/11 Cultwatch" site reeking of MI5 anti-conspiracism is still burning my eyes.

[insert collapsing tower with numbered arrows here]

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

1) Your message must be visible.

2) Your message must be relevant to the audience.

3) Your message must be conveyed with credibility.

4) Your message must be understandable.

5) Your message must be easily repeated.

Re: 9/11.
Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

[FourthBase]

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

1) Your message must be visible.

2) Your message must be relevant to the audience.

3) Your message must be conveyed with credibility.

4) Your message must be understandable.

5) Your message must be easily repeated.

Re: 9/11.
Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

Fucking HORSESHIT.

[orz]

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

To bad 9/11 Truth Fandom doesn't even live up to this debatable premise. The MAINSTREAM of the movement, not just the "few bad apples" you imply, break every rule you listed on a regular basis.

[jingofever]

"1,3-diphenylpropane."

.....
The gel used to hold the thermite in place was also found.

quote

slide 126-

But sol-gels to hold the thermite would leave tell-tale residue, 1,3- diphenylpropane (1,3, DPP)...

"Pore size effects in the pyrolysis of 1, 3-dyphenylpropane confined in mesoporous silicas"

http://www.rsc.org/publishing/jounals/C ... i=b310405b

(research by chemist Kevin Ryan)

slide 127-

EPA analysis of the WTC dust showed:

"One molecule, described by the EPA's Eric Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others":
"1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any other sampling we've done," Swartz said."

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-h ... right-area

http://oaspub.epa.gov/eims/xlmreport.di ... _chk=65088

From the quoted arrriricle quoted:
One molecule, described by the EPA's Erik Swartz, was present at levels "that dwarfed all others": 1,3-diphenylpropane. "We've never observed it in any sampling we've ever done," Swartz said. He said it was most likely produced by the plastic of tens of thousands of burning computers.

So is that diphenylpropane from the sol-gels to hold the marmite or from burning computers?

[erosoplier]

I think the only 9/11 book I've got is Crossing the Rubicon. The internet seems to be the medium best suited to 9/11 issues in most respects, but Scott's book looks like a good'n. I'll scurry off and order a copy once I post this.

I took the liberty of highlighting a portion of Robert Steele's review of Scott's book, reprinted below, in the hope that 8bit might notice it and perhaps comment on it.


Review of The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America

51 of 58 people found the following review helpful:
Stunning Work of Immense Value to Every American, September 3, 2007
By Robert D. Steele (Oakton, VA United States) - See all my reviews


I put this book down in something of a daze. This is one of the top five books relevant to understanding Dick Cheney, 9/11, Iraq, and the demise of the Republic.

This author is a Nobel-level researcher who has specialized in cover-ups and conspiracies, who with this book has fourteen serious books in being, a few of them poetry of a serious nature.

The book begins with a lovely list of nineteen trailblazers that is galringly incomplete, but a nice touch and worthy of note.

As I worked my way through the book I was thinking to myself that this author has brought together, in one volume in which half the pages are endnotes, much of what I have been trying to address in my 950+ reviews and my lists on Cheney and 9/11 and anti-Americanism.

The author is superbly credible and well-written in documenting the many miscalculations that have been the result of the intersection between Saudi Arabia, Texas and Geneva, and aggravated (my own view) by Zionists and Israeli genocide against the Palestinians and the Lebanese. I have a note, "tontos utiles," which is what Americans are called in Latin America: "useful idiots." In reality, Cheney is not an idiot, he is simply the most amoral war criminal to ever sit in the Oval Office.

The author is extremely good at showing how Cheney's power emerged with the creation of the Continuity of Operations (COG) parallel government during the Reagan Administration. I am quite certain that Dick Cheney was controlling every aspect of US Government operations on 9/11, and I believe this book and the other books listed below to the point that I feel the 9/11 Commission was a cover-up, and We the People must indict and impeach Dick Cheney or be forever disgraced in the eyes of the world as accomplices to his murderous misdeeds and his 25 high crimes and misdemeanors.

The author ends the book beautifully, with a call for Open Politics that ends with glossary of open politics. Readers may be interested in my keynote speech to Gnomedex in Seattle, "Open Everything, which will shortly be available at my web site as a 9 minute download, with the slides easily found at my website/GNOME.

The author is an English professor, and I can think of no higher praise for his work than to say he is the most erudite patriot I have ever read. This is a moving thoughtful work of enormous importance to those who wish to save the Republic and the Constitution from the criminals and traiors that have hijacked the three branches of the federal government.

There are 27 secessionist movements for good reason. If we do not act now, before 2008, every one of those 27 secessionist movements will have every right to withdraw from what has become the most dangerous rogue nation on the planet. What is being done "in our name" is immoral, unaffordable, unsustainable, and unnecessary. It's time we took the Republic back.
link

[Hugh Manatee Wins]

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

1) Your message must be visible.

2) Your message must be relevant to the audience.

3) Your message must be conveyed with credibility.

4) Your message must be understandable.

5) Your message must be easily repeated.

Re: 9/11.
Only the easy to prove and describe controlled demolition of the WTC meets these criteria.

Fucking HORSESHIT.

OMG. Fonts!

I'm sure you can elaborate, FB. Please do.

Consider the complicated web of intrigue around Dealey Plaza which few can plumb without becoming part-time scholars...but the masses can understand the physical evidence of the Zapruder film ("back and to the left") and all those witnesses describing shots from the fenceline on the grassy knoll.

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

[8bitagent]

Activism must comply with (and take advantage of) the tested rules of propaganda-

To bad 9/11 Truth Fandom doesn't even live up to this debatable premise. The MAINSTREAM of the movement, not just the "few bad apples" you imply, break every rule you listed on a regular basis.

Yes, but I've run into a lot of people who even consider Paul Thompson and Peter Dale Scott "conspiracy mongering" on 9/11.

So is that diphenylpropane from the sol-gels to hold the marmite or from burning computers?

Either way, why is it mostly the "conspiracy nuts" and not the anti bush left thats making a big stink about the ground zero dust coverup?

[8bitagent]

Consider the complicated web of intrigue around Dealey Plaza which few can plumb without becoming part-time scholars...but the masses can understand the physical evidence of the Zapruder film ("back and to the left") and all those witnesses describing shots from the fenceline on the grassy knoll.

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

Well Hugh Manatee Wins, you do Win with that comment.

My research isnt for the average person, or even the average "truther".

You and I can both agree, that to the average right, left or centrist person...the collapse of the towers is the #1 attention getter. Hell thats why they were brought down

You know, its funny...people claim its not Osama in the "confession" tape. to me it clearly is, and whats REALLY funny...is he seems SHOCKED the towers fall. If Osama was in on 9/11, he had no idea that the towers would collapse...and was just as shocked as the fact the air force was MIA

But the SAME focus on CD is also what alienates and stigmatizes people

Hugh, you are quite aware how many people, I'd say at least 60% or more who hear of 9/11 theories laugh at the idea of bombs in the building?
Just saying.

[Joe Hillshoist]

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

Assuming the worst about people (ie that they are too stupid to follow names in a book) would appear to be one of the things some people find a little bit off putting about "twoofers".

Its as much snobbery as the snobbery someone (ninakat?) accused jeff of.

This thread reminds me of this for some reason.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=G1f2M5G9KG8

[sandymac]

Below is the Wikipedia version of the collapse of Building 7. I found it to be quite wordy. I counted 21 references. Personally, I like to believe my own eyes and my own ears. Anyone who took essay tests in high school can recognize the bullshit factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

"As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, debris hit 7 World Trade Center, causing heavy damage to the south face of the building.[3] The bottom portion of the building's south face was heavily damaged from debris, including: damage to the southwest corner from the 8th to 18th floor, a large vertical gash on the center-bottom extending at least ten floors, and other damage as high as the 18th floor.[3] The building was equipped with a sprinkler system, but had many single-point vulnerabilities for failure. The sprinkler system required manual initiation of the electrical fire pumps, rather than being a fully automatic system. The sprinkler floor level controls had just a single connection to the sprinkler water riser, and the sprinkler system required some power for the fire pump to deliver water. Loss of power to the fire pump or other damage to the structure would have meant no functioning sprinklers. Also, water pressure was low, with little or no water to feed sprinklers.[26][27]

After the North Tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[28] A massive fire burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[29][30] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[3] At approximately 2:00 p.m., firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors which was a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[31] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[32] Around 3:30 pm, given that 7 World Trade Center was unstable and would possibly collapse, FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[33][31] At 5:20 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center collapsed. The building had been evacuated and there were no casualties associated with the collapse.

In May 2002, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) issued a report on the collapse based on a preliminary investigation conducted jointly with the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers under leadership of Dr. W. Gene Corley, P.E. FEMA made preliminary findings that the collapse was not primarily caused by actual impact damage from the collapse of 1 WTC and 2 WTC but by fires on multiple stories ignited by debris from the other two towers that continued unabated due to lack of water for sprinklers or manual firefighting. Structural elements were exposed to high temperatures for a sufficient period of time to reduce their strength to the point of collapse.[6]

The report did not reach final conclusions about the cause of the collapse, but listed several issues requiring further investigation. FEMA made these findings:

Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. [Ch. 5, p. 31.]


Plan view of collapse progression, with structural failure initiating on lower floors, on the east side of the building and vertical progression up to the east mechanical penthouseIn response to FEMA's concerns, the Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) was authorized to lead a three-year, $16 million investigation into the structural failure and collapse of the World Trade Center twin towers and 7 World Trade Center.[34] The investigation, led by Dr S. Shyam Sunder, drew not only upon in-house technical expertise, but also upon the knowledge of several outside private institutions, including the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).[35]


Few photos and video clips exist that show the damage sustained to south face of 7 World Trade Center on 9/11. From a news helicopter, ABC News captured footage of the south face of 7 World Trade Center, including a glimpse of a gash, extending approximately 10 stories.NIST has released a video and still-photo analysis of 7 World Trade Center before its collapse that appears to indicate a greater degree of structural damage from falling debris than originally assumed by FEMA. Specifically, NIST's interim report on 7 World Trade Center displays photographs of the southwest façade of the building that show it to have significant damage. The report also highlights a 10-story gash in the center of the south façade, toward the bottom, extending approximately a quarter of the way into the interior.[36][3] A unique aspect of the design of 7 World Trade Center was that each outer structural column was responsible for supporting 2,000 sq ft (186 m²) of floor space, suggesting that the simultaneous removal of a number of columns severely compromised the structure's integrity.[37] Consistent with this theory, news footage shows cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately before the collapse, which began at the penthouse floors.[3] In video of the collapse, taken from the north by CBS News and other news media, the first visible sign of collapse is movement in the east penthouse 8.2 seconds before the north wall began to collapse, which took at least another 7 seconds.[3][38]

A progress report was released in June 2004, outlining NIST's working hypothesis.[39][3] The hypothesis, which was reiterated in a June 2007 status update, is that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."[40]

NIST anticipates the release of a draft report of 7 World Trade Center in 2008.[41] The NIST is utilizing ANSYS to model events leading up to collapse initiation and LS-DYNA models to simulate the global response to initiating events.[42] The investigation of 7 World Trade Center has been delayed for a number of reasons, including that NIST staff who had been working on 7 World Trade Center were assigned full-time from June 2004 to September 2005, to work on the investigation of the collapse of the twin towers.[43] In June 2007, he explained, "We are proceeding as quickly as possible while rigorously testing and evaluating a wide range of scenarios to reach the most definitive conclusion possible. The WTC 7 investigation is in some respects just as challenging, if not more so, than the study of the towers. However, the current study does benefit greatly from the significant technological advances achieved and lessons learned from our work on the towers."[40]


BMCC's Fiterman Hall was heavily damaged from the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, and is undergoing deconstruction.Conspiracy theorists believe the building collapses on September 11, including that of building seven, were the result of controlled demolition.[44][45] NIST has "found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event". In its final report on building 7, they would "like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements".[43]

When 7 World Trade Center collapsed, debris caused substantial damage and contamination to the Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall building, located adjacent at 30 West Broadway, to the extent that the building is not salvageable. As of August 2007, Fiterman Hall is undergoing deconstruction.[46] The adjacent Verizon Building, an art deco building constructed in 1926, had extensive damage to its east façade from the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, though was able to be restored at a cost of US$1.4 billion.[47]"

[IanEye]

You think TV nation can grok the stuff about NWO puppets whose names aren't even pronouncable that 8bitagent focuses on?

No way.

That's our Hugh, just filled to the brim with love for humanity...

[slimmouse]

Below is the Wikipedia version of the collapse of Building 7. I found it to be quite wordy. I counted 21 references. Personally, I like to believe my own eyes and my own ears. Anyone who took essay tests in high school can recognize the bullshit factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

"As the North Tower collapsed on September 11, 2001, debris hit 7 World Trade Center, causing heavy damage to the south face of the building.[3] The bottom portion of the building's south face was heavily damaged from debris, including: damage to the southwest corner from the 8th to 18th floor, a large vertical gash on the center-bottom extending at least ten floors, and other damage as high as the 18th floor.[3] The building was equipped with a sprinkler system, but had many single-point vulnerabilities for failure. The sprinkler system required manual initiation of the electrical fire pumps, rather than being a fully automatic system. The sprinkler floor level controls had just a single connection to the sprinkler water riser, and the sprinkler system required some power for the fire pump to deliver water. Loss of power to the fire pump or other damage to the structure would have meant no functioning sprinklers. Also, water pressure was low, with little or no water to feed sprinklers.[26][27]

After the North Tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[28] A massive fire burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[29][30] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[3] At approximately 2:00 p.m., firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors which was a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[31] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[32] Around 3:30 pm, given that 7 World Trade Center was unstable and would possibly collapse, FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[33][31] At 5:20 p.m. EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center collapsed. The building had been evacuated and there were no casualties associated with the collapse.

In May 2002, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) issued a report on the collapse based on a preliminary investigation conducted jointly with the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers under leadership of Dr. W. Gene Corley, P.E. FEMA made preliminary findings that the collapse was not primarily caused by actual impact damage from the collapse of 1 WTC and 2 WTC but by fires on multiple stories ignited by debris from the other two towers that continued unabated due to lack of water for sprinklers or manual firefighting. Structural elements were exposed to high temperatures for a sufficient period of time to reduce their strength to the point of collapse.[6]

The report did not reach final conclusions about the cause of the collapse, but listed several issues requiring further investigation. FEMA made these findings:

Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue. [Ch. 5, p. 31.]


Plan view of collapse progression, with structural failure initiating on lower floors, on the east side of the building and vertical progression up to the east mechanical penthouseIn response to FEMA's concerns, the Commerce Department’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) was authorized to lead a three-year, $16 million investigation into the structural failure and collapse of the World Trade Center twin towers and 7 World Trade Center.[34] The investigation, led by Dr S. Shyam Sunder, drew not only upon in-house technical expertise, but also upon the knowledge of several outside private institutions, including the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), the Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE), the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), the American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC), the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY).[35]


Few photos and video clips exist that show the damage sustained to south face of 7 World Trade Center on 9/11. From a news helicopter, ABC News captured footage of the south face of 7 World Trade Center, including a glimpse of a gash, extending approximately 10 stories.NIST has released a video and still-photo analysis of 7 World Trade Center before its collapse that appears to indicate a greater degree of structural damage from falling debris than originally assumed by FEMA. Specifically, NIST's interim report on 7 World Trade Center displays photographs of the southwest façade of the building that show it to have significant damage. The report also highlights a 10-story gash in the center of the south façade, toward the bottom, extending approximately a quarter of the way into the interior.[36][3] A unique aspect of the design of 7 World Trade Center was that each outer structural column was responsible for supporting 2,000 sq ft (186 m²) of floor space, suggesting that the simultaneous removal of a number of columns severely compromised the structure's integrity.[37] Consistent with this theory, news footage shows cracking and bowing of the building's east wall immediately before the collapse, which began at the penthouse floors.[3] In video of the collapse, taken from the north by CBS News and other news media, the first visible sign of collapse is movement in the east penthouse 8.2 seconds before the north wall began to collapse, which took at least another 7 seconds.[3][38]

A progress report was released in June 2004, outlining NIST's working hypothesis.[39][3] The hypothesis, which was reiterated in a June 2007 status update, is that an initial failure in a critical column occurred below the 13th floor, caused by damage from fire and/or debris from the collapse of the two main towers. The collapse progressed vertically up to the east mechanical penthouse. The interior structure was unable to handle the redistributed load, resulting in horizontal progression of the failure across lower floors, particularly the 5th to 7th floors. This resulted in "a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure."[40]

NIST anticipates the release of a draft report of 7 World Trade Center in 2008.[41] The NIST is utilizing ANSYS to model events leading up to collapse initiation and LS-DYNA models to simulate the global response to initiating events.[42] The investigation of 7 World Trade Center has been delayed for a number of reasons, including that NIST staff who had been working on 7 World Trade Center were assigned full-time from June 2004 to September 2005, to work on the investigation of the collapse of the twin towers.[43] In June 2007, he explained, "We are proceeding as quickly as possible while rigorously testing and evaluating a wide range of scenarios to reach the most definitive conclusion possible. The WTC 7 investigation is in some respects just as challenging, if not more so, than the study of the towers. However, the current study does benefit greatly from the significant technological advances achieved and lessons learned from our work on the towers."[40]


BMCC's Fiterman Hall was heavily damaged from the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, and is undergoing deconstruction.Conspiracy theorists believe the building collapses on September 11, including that of building seven, were the result of controlled demolition.[44][45] NIST has "found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event". In its final report on building 7, they would "like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements".[43]

When 7 World Trade Center collapsed, debris caused substantial damage and contamination to the Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall building, located adjacent at 30 West Broadway, to the extent that the building is not salvageable. As of August 2007, Fiterman Hall is undergoing deconstruction.[46] The adjacent Verizon Building, an art deco building constructed in 1926, had extensive damage to its east façade from the collapse of 7 World Trade Center, though was able to be restored at a cost of US$1.4 billion.[47]"

fill in the missing end of tale, and sell it to a childrens book publication as a sick fairy story........

"and then, all of a sudden, the entire building just fell in a b-i-i-i-g heap destroying much evidence against the wicked people .( groans of disbelief from the children )

Meanwhile the very same wicked rich people, who's bacon was saved by this immaculate destruction, merely attributed all of this gravity defying incident to some kind of unfortunate coincidence"