chemtrail patterns maybe huge orgone energy patches

[Penguin]

Ha. You won't try it because you think you won't be able to keep from laughing? Not that laughter and faith can't coexist.

[Joe Hillshoist]

You're takin the piss man.

No one looks like that.

I've been working with this guy..



for a few months. He doesn't always dress that way but everyone knows it's him. It's hard to keep a straight face around him esp. when he plays up to it.

He couldn't even put the sock in the right place.

He can't!

I keep meaning to try orgonite but does it's efficacy depend upon my belief in it?

Possibly. But IMO if belief is all thats needed and orgonite does nothing, great, go for it. It won't work the way people predict it too, but it will have the effect their belief system is aiming for, which is trying to heal the world. Its nothing like anywhere near enough on its own tho.

i thought it was that guy at first, then I thought, well you know how things are, it probably is Dragon.

But really you are actually working with him? thats a bit like working with Jesus for nerds isn't it?

Seamus I thought the relationship between Dragon and MaryK was creepy. She always seemed to support him unquestioningly and he seemed to constantly telling her why she was wrong, in a pedantic control freak sort of way. I think, it was bloody years ago. Thats the distinct impression I have looking back. I spose its all archived if someone wants to check, and tell me I got it wrong. BTW Did Marky K get banned or just stop showing up?

I keep meaning to try orgonite but does it's efficacy depend upon my belief in it?

I have been contemplating this for years and the power of the placebo.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Up until you wrote that I thought you were ann advocate of the EFF and all the associated ... er ... stuff.

[Trifecta]

I spent a long time communicating with Don Croft before I started to make orgone. I found him a knowledgeable, truthful and funny guy.

I discoverd the name chemtrails in a political forum and did the usual google search. I started to pay attention to skies and sure enough there was some strange anomolies and so a crazy journey started.

After spending life sucking energy on forums trying to find answers, falling into so many rabbit holes, unsavoury characters and mind fuckers, I decided to give orgone a try.

Things just started happening, and lead to my personal expereinces with these devices. When Don Croft fell out of favour on Cloudbusters I built EFF and started a movement of fighters, taking the devices into harsh areas of entropy, negative energy spots and mill indust complex ... things got even stranger.

But, always in the back of my mind was the thought that with a feeling of empowerment came power. I still have not worked it all out.

[brainpanhandler]

If I remember rightly psynapz, James Demeo was apoplectic about Don Croft and orgonite/chembusters.

He claimed, in about 2002, that the prolifieration of chembusters spreading around the world was actually contributing to the worldwide drought. Among other things he claimed that because chembusters were different to the original cloud busters, they did not ground themselves in a source of living (moving) water, they effectively blocking or interfering with the natural flow of orgone/chi.

Psynapz, trifecta, anything to say on those criticisms of orgonite?

In general, I have a lot of respect for Dr. James DeMeo and his research. I took away two things from anything DeMeo's ever written about orgonite chembusters:

1. DeMeo is a sensitive, caring, committed scientist and environmentalist; a Reichian True Believer.

2. His opinion is based on less research and first-hand experience with orgonite than Lars Ulrich of Metallica had with Napster when he sued them over piracy of "master-quality recordings" (which MP3's are definitely not).

Confusing subreferential analogies aside, I never had the impression that DeMeo ever actually played with a chembuster first-hand, but instead reacted as a fundamentalist would to second-hand info, with sheer denial and plainly ignorant dismissal.

He either missed or conscientiously rejects the experience of many energy-sensitive people that orgonite transmutes negative energy into positive energy in a passive, continuous manner which can only mediate a localized energetic balance and cannot by design create an imbalance.

Chembusters just add double-terminated quartz crystals aimed up through copper pipes at the sky to create a sort of vortex which either sucks the energy out of the clouds through the orgonite base which re-radiates it as positive orgone, or draws in the excessive ambient energy and directs it as positive energy towards the sky, depending on what the area needs at any given moment. It's a passive, dynamic and reflexive effect which should be easy to understand.

Not to mention it's been reported to be the overwhelming experience of prolific gifters that orgonite, including the small towerbuster variety and the large pipe-adorned directed energy devices like chembusters actually increase the seasonal rainfall and encourage flora and foliar growth, and we're talking everywhere from Death Valley California to sub-Saharan Africa. As I said before, there's not much in the way of normalized control-group vs. test-group data of any scientific quality on this of which I'm aware, but for those doing it, the confirmations speak for themselves. Whatever self-confirmation is ultimately worth, I suppose.

It would be one thing if DeMeo had said "I played with one of these and it intuitively felt all wrong," but he's just surmising that it doesn't work based on the fact that it innovates on Reich's principles without respecting the idiosyncratic observations Reich made with his now-primitive etheric energy focusing designs which DeMeo still bases his life's work upon, hence the Bush-voter-syndrome reaction to being shown that your way is sub-optimal. But perhaps I'm not being fair in that analogy...

I can't prove he's wrong, but for the sake of all the orgonite that's been deployed out there in the world, I sure hope he is. My personal experience with the stuff gives me a strong intuitive sense that it can't harm the energetic ecosphere in the way DeMeo thinks it can, and that it does more good than it could do harm, if any.

Word to the wise, though: Bondo is toxic until it sets into solid plastic, so let these things cure until they stop stinking up the place before you go burying them in the ground or tossing them in the local reservoir, k?

I hope this rambling rant adequately answers your question, but let me know if not and I'll try again after a good night's rest.

In short, what you took away from the clearly stated grounds on which James DeMeo explains that the assertions and actions of chembusters are not only unsupported by any aspect of Reich's work but frankly dependent on an ignorant misunderstanding of it was that he either missed or conscientiously rejected the tenets of your personal belief system.

In addition to which you have a strong intuitive sense that he's wrong.

I don't know if that adequately answers the question, as framed. But it certainly doesn't adequately address the points raised
here and also here by Demeo.

I got no dog in this hunt, personally, and am not trying to score a point for or against the validity of anything. I'm just posting as an advocate of the relatively uncontroversial premise that since there is a distinction between reason and faith, it can't hurt to distinguish them.

I got no dog in this hunt, personally, and am not trying to score a point for or against the validity of anything.

Except:

the relatively uncontroversial premise that since there is a distinction between reason and faith, it can't hurt to distinguish them.

Which is reasonable enough but only uncontroversial relative to anything sans particulars. The devil really is in the details. Pure reason/pure faith... what are they?

I had encountered Demeo's site and read through it in the past. I take exception to this description:

a Reichian True Believer

on the basis that Reich would have taken exception to having any True Believers as Demeo is surely aware. You could argue that Reich, toward the end of his life, might well have developed a bit of a messiah complex. However, I think the assertion that Reich eschewed all forms of guru or hero worship is amply supported by his writings.

I'm embarrassed to see this thread at RI.

There isn't a shovel big enough. STOP FEEDING.

I have a certain empathy for this sentiment, but I think these ideas need to get aired out every once in awhile. This is not the thread where I want to have a serious discussion of Reich, so I won't. But I will say this... Reich was a visionary in many ways if a somewhat less than rigorous natural scientist. Demeo overstates Reich's diligence in this regard. Reich was not the first western scientist to posit the existence of a life force which also functioned and interacted with the more well known natural forces. (How well understood is gravity?) It seems to me the orgonitians would have a clearer affinity with Reichenbach and his Odic Force.

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/odenergy.htm

[Trifecta]

Orgone has been around long before Reich gave it a name. I discovered this by accident while on the moors near a stone circle and a burial chamber, which I dug into and saw layers of quartz and other materials ... it got me thinking.

Snip:

Another enigmatic class of megalithic structure is the dolmen or ‘table-stone’ (dol=table, men=stone). Dolmens normally consist of two to four enormous slabs of stone (often weighing several tons each) supporting even larger roof stones. Dolmens - or as they are called in other ancient European languages: quoits and cromlechs - are scattered throughout the European countryside from the Iberian peninsula to the remote islands of northern Scotland.

Very rarely found with burial remains and often located far from any evidences of ancient habitation sites, dolmen structures - by the very difficulty of their construction - indicate a powerful purpose. Extraordinary work forces were needed to erect a dolmen's supporting stones and to place the table top stones upon them. With primitive levers and ropes, three or four strong people are required to move a one ton stone, thus the 50 ton cap stones of certain dolmens would require 100-200 persons to move them. Many of these megaliths were erected upon high and remote plateaus and were fashioned from stones which were quarried hundreds of miles away.

Moving stones up even small inclines requires the number of workers to be increased by a factor of five. Such enormous effort points to the great importance of the dolmens to megalithic people. Often erected directly over power points along the Earth's meridian lines, the dolmen megaliths served to tap terrestrial energies for the benefit of human beings.

Another fascinating thing to know about many of the dolmens is that they were originally entirely covered by alternating layers of organic and inorganic materials. While the purpose of this construction technique is presently unknown, it is interesting to note that the scientist and psychic Wilhelm Reich used the same technique in the construction of his so-called orgone generators, these being (much smaller) devices that were able to generate, concentrate and radiate a mysterious form of energy. Could the ancient builders of the dolmens have been using their unique construction techniques for a similar purpose? Orthodox archaeologists commonly assume these dolmen structures were used for funerary purposes because burials have been found in a small number of them (a very small number!).

It is important to note, however, that the scientific dating of the burial remains shows them to be hundreds or thousands of years more recent that the structures themselves, thus casting serious doubt on the tomb theory.

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/sacred_geography.html

[compared2what?]

Which is reasonable enough but only uncontroversial relative to anything sans particulars. The devil really is in the details. Pure reason/pure faith... what are they?

I know, right? I scoffed at myself as I typed that.

But it seemed like the best shorthand available for the point, which was that Demeo's position is expressed as a "reasoned" one, in the conventional sense of the world. And that in a very literal (or at a least a very etymologically literal) way, any reply to it that's an expression of "faith," in the conventional etcetera, is therefore not adequate (as in "equal to").

FWIW, I personally don't regard either faith or reason, as conventionally defined, is an unequivocally and universally better means of expressing or apprehending a truth, personally. Both can be used for good or for ill*, and neither exists except in the context of the paradoxical, complex, multidimensional environment we like to call "human consciousness." Assuming that we're talking about the use of faith and reason exclusively by humans, anyway.

In any event. I really only used the word "adequate" as an echo of the post I was responding to. I might much more adequately have said that it wasn't an "applicable" response, since that is in fact what I meant. And it's much less misleadingly value-laden when thus phrased. If I were smart, I would have done that. Dammit.

*Furthermore, as Al Green teaches us: Love can make you do right, and love can make you do wrong.

[brainpanhandler]

I know, right? I scoffed at myself as I typed that.

But it seemed like the best shorthand available for the point, which was that Demeo's position is expressed as a "reasoned" one, in the conventional sense of the world. And that in a very literal (or at a least a very etymologically literal) way, any reply to it that's an expression of "faith," in the conventional etcetera, is therefore not adequate (as in "equal to").

FWIW, I personally don't regard either faith or reason, as conventionally defined, is an unequivocally and universally better means of expressing or apprehending a truth, personally. Both can be used for good or for ill*, and neither exists except in the context of the paradoxical, complex, multidimensional environment we like to call "human consciousness." Assuming that we're talking about the use of faith and reason exclusively by humans, anyway.

In any event. I really only used the word "adequate" as an echo of the post I was responding to. I might much more adequately have said that it wasn't an "applicable" response, since that is in fact what I meant. And it's much less misleadingly value-laden when thus phrased. If I were smart, I would have done that. Dammit.

Oh, you really needn't have gone to all that trouble, at least not for me. It's just that you leave so few chinks in your armor that I couldn't resist this one. That chink was not left because you're not smart. There must have been some other reason, one which you were unaware of.

Psynapz is a slippery one. Aren't you psynapz? Self confirmation ain't worth squat I'm afraid, at least not to anyone else except the self confirmer. While the sceintific method and reason are obviously not the only route to the truth, nonetheless, assertions of truth which do not use them with rigorous protocols should not represent themselves as anything other than conjecture. This is not to say that personal observation and anecdotal evidence are not useful and cannot be the beginnings of scientific inquiry. In fact they most often are, but they are only beginnings. If all this seeems obvious, and it should, it nonetheless bears repeating, over and over....

Here's a personal observation: I've seen orgone or at least I'm fairly certain that I have seen orgone. It is visible to me just exactly as Reich describes it and is visible to me only in the atmospheric conditions Reich said it should be present in sufficient quantity to be visible. I have not been able to rule out a subjective common visual phenomena, but I really was taken aback when I first noticed this and this experience is part of the reason I take the existence of orgone as an independent force present in nature seriously.

*Furthermore, as Al Green teaches us: Love can make you do right, and love can make you do wrong.

Faithless- If lovin’ you is wrong

it is interesting to note that the scientist and psychic Wilhelm Reich used the same technique in the construction of his so-called orgone generators, these being (much smaller) devices that were able to generate, concentrate and radiate a mysterious form of energy.

This is inaccurate. Orgone accumulators do not generate orgone. Furthermore, Reich was not a psychic.

It is important to note, however, that the scientific dating of the burial remains shows them to be hundreds or thousands of years more recent that the structures themselves, thus casting serious doubt on the tomb theory.

Then again, perhaps grave robbers are responsible for the lack of remains?

And I don't think the two theories are mutually exclusive anyway.

[Trifecta]

Just a note Orgone generators and accumulators are two different things. One sucks, one blows to use a bad expression.

Nice vid, love faithless

[Joe Hillshoist]

I have been to a few indigenous sacred sites around here. One day, the guy I was with who was kinda responsible for it(that site) said words to the effect sacred sites, in their culture were like the lands acupuncture points. Pressure points too, but he stressed acupuncture in context with this site. Possible all of them.

Its not a perfect metaphor, (no metaphor is) but its damn good, cos part of the role of the culture was to regulate and clear the lands chi flow via ceremonies at these sites. of course different sacred sites are different, obviously, some have certain roles, others different roles. There are contexts tho - this world and other ones, and the worlds chi or prana or if you like orgone.

I prefer words from older cultures, specifically ones that have had to rely on their concept of energy flows when things are on the line, compared to orgone. Basically cos if they are talking about the same thing, which seems to be the case, then the words from the older cultures can lead to a greater understanding of the concept.

Then again every culture has its own dreaming, and we are a techno culture. So perhaps orgonite might deserve a fairer hearing than I and some others might give it. Perhaps its part of the begining of us trying to find chi and a sacred connection or spirit in techno world. That could be a very good thing.

I don't buy all that reptillian bullshit. But it could be the beginnings of a valid mythology or dreaming/dreamtime cycle.

I meant to find a similarity between Trifecta's views on orgone and european megaliths, indigenous spirituality, and my views on chi, and how all 3 interact.

One thing tho, when you refer to the alternating layers of organic and inorganic compounds on some european sacred sites, are you referring to moss and lichen and fungi? Growing on rocks, even soil in patches, and all of it feeding off the rock? Cos if so, then perhaps Reich got it a bit wrong or missed part of it. If life is growing on rocks then of the energy accumulating, or flowing more powerfully through the vicinity will be due to the life process taking place as the organic things mine the inorganic rock for nutrients.

It could even be blocking the flow in that area specifically to make it available for the humans, and possibly animal life and plant life in the area. Setting up a deliberate blockage so life forms have to thrive in the area to dissipate the blocked chi.

That'd be good for hunting. And foraging.

[Trifecta]

The acupuncture metaphor is a good one. Ley lines or dragon paths are clearly marked by standing stones. The tombs, burial chambers etc are always nearby. Quartz seems to play an important part of the actual constituents within these chambers as far as I can tell?

On these lines and at these points mythos moots took place, more commonly the news and the gossip to be spread around the surrounding villages and trading points. Myth, stories and knowledge was shared specifically at these points. I think that has some importance in dreamtime, so do the stones themselves, as if they hold and transmute the knowledge via the ley lines, chi, orgone whatever you call it.

The thing I find most interesting, that along with neo and megalithic sites on ley lines you also find a large number of military bases ... coincidence?

So, we gifted the lines, rebuilt fallen stones where we could, healed the water as far as we knew and the energy of these places was one of the biggest highs I have ever experienced.

I wish I could spend more time on these things, maybe one day!

[psynapz]

In short, what you took away from the clearly stated grounds on which James DeMeo explains that the assertions and actions of chembusters are not only unsupported by any aspect of Reich's work but frankly dependent on an ignorant misunderstanding of it was that he either missed or conscientiously rejected the tenets of your personal belief system. In addition to which you have a strong intuitive sense that he's wrong.

It's been so long since I've read those two pages, I'm humbled to say you're right. I didn't realize I was doing that. Thanks for calling me out on that one. In retrospect, I had a few moments of dog-o-matic writing while composing the rant to which you're responding. Belief is a prison, or I should say it tends to be...

I don't know if that adequately answers the question, as framed. But it certainly doesn't adequately address the points raised
here and also here by Demeo.

I got no dog in this hunt, personally, and am not trying to score a point for or against the validity of anything. I'm just posting as an advocate of the relatively uncontroversial premise that since there is a distinction between reason and faith, it can't hurt to distinguish them.

I exactly failed to do that, at least consciously. In the interest of fairness, I've re-read those two links. DeMeo's argument aganist chembusters is as follows:

"The vapor emanating from the jets would hold together for a long time and over miles of sky when the sky was bright and blue, when DOR was absent. On the other hand, the vapor trails would be thin or would not be visible at all, they would not last long, would dissipate quickly when DOR was heavy. In very heavy DOR regions, the vapor trails would not form at all; they would reappear exactly where blue bright sky would surround heavy DOR clouds. ... From then onward one was able at will, at any altitude, in any region of the globe, at any time of the day to determine whether DOR was present in the sky or not; one could even judge the intensity of DOR clouds by the degree in which the vapor trails would fail to form or hold, by their thinness, length, etc. ...It was always with a great joy as well as gratification to see those jet trails reach from horizon to horizon when good DOR removal work had been done."
-- Wilhelm Reich, Contact With Space, 1957, p.89-91.

Reich never described behavior like we see contemporarily when referring to persistent contrails. He never said they spread out into a thick haze which turned crystal clear blue skies into white-out gray skies within a couple of hours, which is the classic observation of anyone who watches the skies after heavy spraying.

This above quote from Reich agrees fully with my own extensive work and research investigating Reich's original and authentic cloudbuster device, that jet contrails will quickly dissipate, and not form easily in a droughty DOR-infested atmosphere. However, they will develop quickly and persist in a healthy DOR-free atmosphere which also, because of the same orgone-energetic properties, will promote cloud-growth in a more general manner.

These observations totally contradict the posturing claims of the chemtrail/chembuster "experts", who nevertheless throw around Reich's name and terms as if they really understood what they were talking about. They do not. With correct operational procedures, correct use of a cloudbuster device can turn a droughty and hazy atmosphere more clear and blue, reducing or eliminating it's hazy characteristics, after which well-formed clouds, as well as jet contrails, will become possible. This kind of energetic transformation may only take a few minutes or hours of work with the apparatus, and it is most remarkable to see.

That is exactly the experience of orgonite gifters including myself. An afternoon of gifting towers should cause the overcast DOR muck to dissipate into persistent, beautiful puffy natural clouds, not a cloudless blue sky. Chembusters punch holes through clouds at first, but they don't prevent cloud formation once the energetic balance has been struck, from what I've seen and read.

I get the impression, and this is where my aforementioned intuition kicked in, that DeMeo has never actually played with the stuff himself but is instead making assumptions and thus assertions based solely on his own biases and not direct observations.

If you work the cloudbuster improperly, however, as with the typical chembuster being set up to "work" over days, months or years, then one might get a temporary intensification of the blue and haze-clearing reactions. But it becomes "too much" such that neither aircraft contrails nor rain-bearing clouds will naturally form anymore. People may feel "excited" with the energetic expansion, but when this same orgone-excitation is prolonged over weeks and months, it converts the life-energy into a DOR-stasis condition. By this mechanism, the chembuster works to create DOR, to intensify DOR conditions, to make the atmospheric stasis and DOR condition worse, and finally to then kill cloud growth. The "chembuster" does not discriminate between "only" aircraft contrails and ordinary clouds.

I haven't found this to be the case and frankly I think he's talking out his ass here. Of course the chembuster won't discriminate, but I would think the energetic quality of a natural cloud would be significantly different than a blanket of aerosol haze held together by electrostatic polymer fibers. That might be me talking out my ass, but I'm pretty sure he isn't doing any better himself here.

DeMeo raises a variety of strawman arguments from the fringe of the fringe, including shape-shifting reptilians and the eBay and Google AdWords market for oddly-named and overpriced orgone devices, paying no mind to the open-source instructions for making your own orgonite and the gifting community's strong preference for sharing orgonite with people for free and teaching them how to make it themselves in the interest of self-empowerment and growth of a love-centric movement.

The "HHG" term means, for example, "Holy Hand Grenade", and supposedly acts like a regular hand-grenade bomb in some nether-worldly dimension inhabited by demons

The name was a joke in reference to the killer rabbit scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I've never in my years of following the orgonite boards seen any assertion that they "act as a regular hand-grenade bomb in some nether-worldly dimension." In fact, they're more directionally focused than a muffin mold TB due to the copper coil around the vertically-oriented crystal. I don't know where DeMeo would get this idea other than his own head, reaching for the extra absurd to better support his argument as with the obscure and ridiculous-sounding keywords or terminology he trots out in the same essay.

Reich was emphatic, that a healthy atmosphere with good cloud-forming and pulsating properties will naturally support the development of aircraft contrails.

Which would be fine if we were talking about aircraft contrails. You can see in some photos clearly that there are streaks emanating from parts of the wings or fuselage which do not contain engine nacellles or exhaust vents, indicating specialized dispersal equipment. There are telephoto videos that show dispersal stopping and starting while the engine contrails continue on throughout.

And I don't care what anybody says, I know from my personal experience of growing up near a SAC base that jet exhaust contrails under no circumstances ever used to persist for hours and spread out into a horizon-wide high cirrus overcast. So we're not even talking about contrails here.

IMO, DeMeo tries way too hard to debunk chemtrails, and fails:

the need for a conspiracy of airline pilots, ground crews, fight controllers, and both military and civil aviation authorities in the willful poisoning of their own families, neighbors and fellow citizens. Why would they do this?
[...]
Someone has to fill the airplanes with the claimed toxic chemicals, fly the aircraft over the claimed "target area" and then throw the spray-switch. It is simply not credible that large numbers of ordinary military and civilian employees would do that

Yeah, fuck, the military would never twist or compartmentalize away the reasoning behind their orders to make patriotic soldiers and flight crews think they're actually helping humanity. Boot camp surely doesn't break a person's independent thought to the point they spend the rest of their career following orders without questioning them under the assumption that their owner and caretaker, the military, empowered by God Almighty Himself, would ever tell them to do something immoral, unethical, harmful or just plain wrong. Not to mention, there's absolutely no evidence the military is involved in aerosol operations, right? Right.

As for civilian aviation, any pilot accounts I've read have sounded like they figured it out for themselves and that there was no reason anybody who actually touches the planes would have to know about it. The chain of culpability could end well before the Jet-A fuel is ever loaded onto the tanker trucks that bring them to the airports.

He certainly didn't need to take on the validity of the chemtrail phenomenon in warning people against the irresponsible use of neo-Reichian weather modification technology. It makes his writing on the subject smack of cranky vitriol, which makes him no better than Don Croft in that regard.

Afterreading his arguments, I will concede that perhaps DeMeo may very well be right about leaving chembusters up permanently, but the empirical observations of chembuster owners does not seem to support his assertions. We need more scientific data on this subject, which is damn hard to do when we're talking about qi, which as Joe said, describes energetic relationships rather than energetic states which can be easily measured.

Thanks c2w for keeping me honest. I seem to have a little Croftian dogma still tainting my opinions on the subject.

[psynapz]

Psynapz is a slippery one. Aren't you psynapz? Self confirmation ain't worth squat I'm afraid, at least not to anyone else except the self confirmer.

Eh? Obviously it ain't... I didn't make that clear with all the qualifying modifiers?

Not trying to be slippery. "self-confirmation" is the name of the game in orgonite. You know, don't take anyone's word for it, just try it and see what, if anything, happens. That sort of thing. Did I say "FWIW"? I meant to...

This is not to say that personal observation and anecdotal evidence are not useful and cannot be the beginnings of scientific inquiry. In fact they most often are, but they are only beginnings. If all this seeems obvious, and it should, it nonetheless bears repeating, over and over....

Indeed. I've been beating the drum for more science on the subject throughout this thread and for years on orgonite forums, which went a long way towards me being outed as MI6 or whatever by Don Croft's mega-psychic-ninja wife.

Here's a personal observation: I've seen orgone or at least I'm fairly certain that I have seen orgone. It is visible to me just exactly as Reich describes it and is visible to me only in the atmospheric conditions Reich said it should be present in sufficient quantity to be visible. I have not been able to rule out a subjective common visual phenomena, but I really was taken aback when I first noticed this and this experience is part of the reason I take the existence of orgone as an independent force present in nature seriously.

Yeah it's always been hard to tell if I'm making myself see it or what, but I'm pretty sure I've been able to since I was at least tweenaged.

[Seamus OBlimey]

Ha. You won't try it because you think you won't be able to keep from laughing? Not that laughter and faith can't coexist.

If I don't try it it will ony be through apathy, if I do it'll be because I can easily find the ingredients and what should be a perfect testing ground - a hillside with six phone towers looming over the rugby stadium from the north, then just south a cricket pitch and bowling green, further a junior school and all-weather training pitch with surrounding metal mesh fence, all floodlit atop an old stone quarry, at the foot of which a steeplejack's factory, a builders merchant and a foundry.

Which would entail analysis of the performances of every establishment in the test area along with visual recordings, constant observation for anomolous factors like credit crunches and natural weather patterns for at least a year before and after the exact placings of orgonite.

I might set up a couple of webcams and throw some orgonite around but no way am I doing the maths.

I'll probably be laughing if I do it and hoping to believe but I can't adopt faith. It's blind innit?

But really you are actually working with him? thats a bit like working with Jesus for nerds isn't it?

Not exactly but his spitting image. He's a real clown and wears many hats but I'm the one who gets mistaken for Jesus.

Seamus I thought the relationship between Dragon and MaryK was creepy. She always seemed to support him unquestioningly and he seemed to constantly telling her why she was wrong, in a pedantic control freak sort of way. I think, it was bloody years ago. Thats the distinct impression I have looking back. I spose its all archived if someone wants to check, and tell me I got it wrong. BTW Did Marky K get banned or just stop showing up?

Define creepy? I thought "She always seemed to support him unquestioningly and he seemed to constantly telling her why she was wrong, in a pedantic control freak sort of way." was taken as given in any Maryage. There was an influx of "chemmies" via Mary's postings, Dragon and a few supporters were quickly called out for promoting violence and advertising then banned at the insistence of one or two prolific posters, one of whom seems to attract "chemmies" like a cow's arse does flies and who later suggests banning the other while the other who'd accused the "chemmies" of psychic violence wages war on WOO. WTF?

Z force are a bunch of loons living and seeing their own way, they can be taken with a pinch of salt or bought into. No need for a witchunt unless that's their intent. But to sabotage a board with fewer than a hundred regular readers would surely not be worth the expense of an organised disinfo campaign?

I haven't read Demeo because I don't do science, preferring to let it filter down to truth before I analyse it. (should be some green in that?)

Brainy, you say you've seen orgone, but by all accounts if it even exists it should be invisible. Could what you've seen be the effect of orgone on something else?

One thing tho, when you refer to the alternating layers of organic and inorganic compounds on some european sacred sites, are you referring to moss and lichen and fungi? Growing on rocks, even soil in patches, and all of it feeding off the rock? Cos if so, then perhaps Reich got it a bit wrong or missed part of it. If life is growing on rocks then of the energy accumulating, or flowing more powerfully through the vicinity will be due to the life process taking place as the organic things mine the inorganic rock for nutrients.

It could even be blocking the flow in that area specifically to make it available for the humans, and possibly animal life and plant life in the area. Setting up a deliberate blockage so life forms have to thrive in the area to dissipate the blocked chi.

That'd be good for hunting. And foraging.

Interesting, what with stone circles being calendars and all..

[alwyn]

I've read DeMeo, Chemmies, Orgonite boards, etc.
I decided not to build a chembuster based on DeMeo.

I never thought much of chemtrails until I was working at a show, outside, and saw a jet fly overhead leaving a great greasy trail behind it. I mentioned it to one of my fellow artists, and she said, "oh yeah, chemtrails".

I thought WTF, and went home to do some research.
Lots of the material was way over the top, and I reserved judgment, until, one day, I was at the dentists office with my young boy.

Now, I live in the sticks, pop. @1300, elevation around 1500 feet, surrounded by mountains ranging from 2500 to 4000 feet. We are close to the coast, and what aircraft we get are the Portland/Seattle/San Francisco commutes, North to South, or Visa Versa.

Anyway, I am looking out the window of the dentist, which overlooks the ballpark, and I'm seeing chemtrail grids, from East to West, and North to south. Looked like a big checkerboard in the sky. We are not near any airports. There was no reason for this. Pretty soon our blue day was gone. This got me thinking a great deal about Chemtrails.

There was another time I was working a little craft show in the valley. We looked up, it was a sunny day. All of a sudden, there was an 'anarchy A' (big A with a circle around it) in the sky. The temperature dropped about 15 degrees, the stuff started spreading out, it was just strange.

So, I started thinking about orogone, and wondering if the stuff could be true. So, I ordered some from the man in the really bad and non-lawful Renaissance suit (he seems to have lost his pants somewhere...ya never wore just tights ).

I got two little orgone pyramids, put them up. At first, I was freaked out, and thought he put some kind of transmitter in them, 'cause I never saw so many trails. But, that may have been the observer acting upon the observed, or I was just watching the sky more. Anyway, to try and make this long story shorter, after a day or two, the sky started clearing. I have photos (unfortunately on my dead computer) of our valley in a haze, and over my place, blue sky.

It just broke down in the really bad fires we had, but the smoke around our place seemed a little less intense, and I was able to 'lift' it a couple of times when I got a little granite pond fountain going in the back yard.

I know this is just anecdotal, based upon observation, and possibly coincidence, but SOMETHING is going on with this stuff.

[brainpanhandler]

you say you've seen orgone, but by all accounts if it even exists it should be invisible. Could what you've seen be the effect of orgone on something else?

I gotta correct ya on that one Seamus. By the account that matters the most, that being Reich's, Orgone is visible, especially when concentrated in an accumulator or in certain atmospheric conditions.

In fact Reich built his first accumulator in response to observing what he came to term Orgone. Initially he noted the presence of a bluish, moving vapor in the space he was storing what he termed SAPA-bions. SAPA-bions were produced from superheating ocean sand and then creating cultures from the result. He theorized that the SAPA-bions were emitting a radiation. His first accumulator was an attempt to capture this radiation so he could measure it. His methods of quantifying Orgone were visual observations, thermal and electroscopic measurements. He described it as a bluish moving vapor streaked with yellow dots and lines that flickered and noted that the radiation seemed concentrated in the accumulator. When he removed the SAPA-bion culture he observed that the radiation still remained. He actually completely deconstructed his first accumulator in an attempt to get rid of what he believed was the residual radiation from the SAPA-bion culture. When he was not able to lower the concentration of radiation in the accumulator after reconstructing it he began to wonder if this radiation was in fact an energy that was everywhere.

That doesn't mean that the phenomena that Reich and many others have seen is not in fact an interaction with something else as you suggest. The common, rational explanation is that orgone is actually an endoptic visual effect, phosphenes and the like. One of the qualities of my experience of orgone is that it accords perfectly with Reich's observations, especially as they relate to the atmospheric conditions under which orgone should be in sufficient concentration to be visible. This suggests to me an objective phenomena.