So Whose Fault Is It "9/11 Truth" Was An Abysmal Failure?

[barracuda]

Come on, put your thinking caps on. It's a question of identity. All of the above bar Israel could easily be seen to represent the workings of a secretive group within the government and military. Might there not actually be a single figure behind the various cronies, thugs, puppets, allies, proxies and sons to have populated the highest echelons of US government for decades? I mean, you simply must have had influence in more than one US administration to coordinate something like this. It's clear that the highest powers in the United States simply must have been behind an operation of this scale and audacity. They've been running the show since they had JFK gunned down. The bay of pigs crowd. You know.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I agree, and consider the "bay of pigs crowd" to have been effectively ring-lead by Dulles. So it would make sense to look for his spiritual heirs within similar circles of the last 20 years. Poppy and Baker, etc., perhaps.

Yes, very convenient here, so lets break into two ‘groups’, with one faction thinking there is something worthy to analyze here and another faction suggesting we drop it because its bad form.

If we are going to square off teams for "Red Rover", I would tend to consider Mr. Agent to be the fairest of game, whether he is ostensibly "here" or not.

[elfismiles]

HoL, I'm probably completely missing what you're trying to say ... but the hilites make me think your pinning it all on good ole "Poppy":



About the only person I know of who has said they think GHWB was the ringleader is Fintan Dunne:

9/11 Without Tinfoil 1: The Coup
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=827

FD's name might be mud around here but I've always found that possibility somewhat plausible - and links nicely to the other previous American Mind-Fuque 11/22.

From your highlights:

alphabet agencys and the US Military + neocon PNAC-er crew+ Cheney + "crazies" + George Herbert Walker Bush + Bush [shrubya] + CIA + CIA [twice for good measure] +George Herbert Walker Bush [again] = GHWB (to the square root of Z for Israel)?

Lets take a look at that list (bold for emphasis, my comments in italics);

The comments here just reinforce my beliefs that the attackers have done a bang-up job of compartmentalising the operation. There enough breadcrumbs on the dark floor of this forest to drive Hansel and Gretel to cannibalism. How many ways can we fold this origami narrative? An incomplete recap of the who done its:

- The alphabet agencys and the US Military - Well, certainly some of those involved worked with and in and through those permanent institutions.

- The neocon PNAC-er crew - These lot are strongly connected with Cheney and other "crazies" from George Herbert Walker Bush's administration.

- Big Dick Cheney and BushCo LIHOP/MIHOP - You are naming names here. Let's leave aside the fake LIHOP/MIHOP dichotomy.

- Jihad P-TECHers puppeted by CIA - Sure they needed patsies. The international islamic brigades they created years ago serve many purposes. And who might be powerful enough within the CIA establishment? You'd have to have been head honcho or something.

- Israel - Well, its clear Israeli intelligence knew about it. Whether they had to uncover it or were told I couldn't say. Told, most likely, simply because it could not have been kept secret for long. Of course they are a scapegoat in certain strands of disinfo. We know how the game is played. In this list it looks like the joker in the pack.

- The NWO Illuminati Occult Numeralologists - They want to bother you with this rubbish. That's why George Herbert Walker Bush fondles pyramids.

Come on, put your thinking caps on. It's a question of identity. All of the above bar Israel could easily be seen to represent the workings of a secretive group within the government and military. Might there not actually be a single figure behind the various cronies, thugs, puppets, allies, proxies and sons to have populated the highest echelons of US government for decades? I mean, you simply must have had influence in more than one US administration to coordinate something like this. It's clear that the highest powers in the United States simply must have been behind an operation of this scale and audacity. They've been running the show since they had JFK gunned down. The bay of pigs crowd. You know.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[Nordic]

GHWB, Baker, George Schultz, and Henry Kissinger seem to be prominent members of the current mafia that run things.

One thing that has always stuck in my mind was when George Schultz reportedly went to Texas to "interview" George W. Bush on behalf of ....... who?

You know, to see if they could talk him into "playing along" with that whole "you'll be the next President" thing.

Now maybe that's bullshit, but if it's true, WHO was Schultz representing?

That's always been a tantalizing bit of info. Or maybe disinfo.

I mean, if it's Poppy Bush who's the Tony Soprano of this gang (and I don't mean to insult the fictional Tony that way) then it's probably a bullshit story. And it sure seems like Poppy could quite likely be the new "Dulles Brothers".

If we figured it all out and said so publicly, we might find ourselves getting ..... really ..... depressed ...... You know, like Gary Webb got depressed.

[DoYouEverWonder]

All roads lead to Poppy Bush. The bumbling out of the loop idiot is just an act.

[Hugo Farnsworth]

As to the OP, I don't consider it an abysmal failure. It is proceeding just as the JFK assassination "truth" proceeded. One could argue that the JFK assassination "truth" is an abysmal failure too, but as a friend of mine once noted, that is to be expected. We believe that, in the future, more Americans will come to realize that what happened on 9/11 was not as depicted by the PTB.

The physics is obvious with anyone who has eyeballs. And "back and to the left" = "towers exploding up and out", etc. Where it leads, of course, is down the rabbit hole.

[American Dream]

chump wrote

First of all, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater when you dismiss Alex Jones, Loose Change, and some of the Jew bashers.

These people obviously don't agree:

http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/

WHY THE 9/11 TRUTH CULT BOTHERS US

1) They act like a cult, and an aggressive one. The unannounced 9/11 Truth meeting at the October 2005 Anarchist Bookfair in London was marked by physical violence (jostling and digging critics in the ribs), concerted attempts to drown out critics and a nasty intimidatory atmosphere overall. A valuable insight--click for details. At the demonstration outside the (Manchester) Labour Party Conference in September 2006, David Shayler (see below) threw his considerable weight about, forcibly seizing the 'free' microphone from one demonstrator who tried to draw attention to NFB's critique of the movement. While veterans of sharp exchanges, even we have been taken aback by the volume and vitriolic nature of the abusive email exchanges coming our way from this cult.

2) Disgracefully, prominent positions within the UK & Ireland 9/11 Truth Movement are occupied by ex-MI5 officers David Shayler & Annie Machon. Schnews memorably terms Shayler the 9/11 cult 'Poster Boy'--with his ready media access, Shayler is a big domestic draw as an (undoubtedly) impressive public speaker. Machon is the grandly-titled 'Secretary, UK & Ireland 9/11 Truth Campaign', and as such a 'gatekeeper' at the heart of the campaign. NFB have long analysed this pair's ever-shifting stories, and repeated lies. It is a moot question just whose agenda they are working to--including the distinct possibility of alignment with one or other state fraction--see here on this. In Notes From the Borderland issue 7 Heidi Svenson & Paul Stott wrote a critical article on the pair's role in the 9/11 Campaign, also available on this current site--here. To date, the main cultist answer has been abuse, and claims there is nothing to respond to. However, Machon has another line--on the British 9/11 Truth Campaign forum 26/9/06 she attacked Schnews (8/9/06 issue 559) and others in the "anarchist fringe" claiming it was "anybody's guess" as to why we dislike Machon/Shayler, raising the possibility such critics "may be" part of an "MI5 disinformation campaign designed to cause division, just as the campaign is beginning to bite". It takes the biscuit, that lying red-baiting spooks, who have not told the truth about their own murky pasts, implyothers work for the secret state. Shayler made similar (unsubstantiated) claims about the Stop the War Coalition too (see NFB 7 article). Machon says, with unintentional irony "I would hope that our record speaks for itself". It does indeed. Some 9/11 activists are waking up--scroll down to the comments section here.

3) A growing distaste at bizarre conspiracy theories the 9/11 cult propagate, in particular anti-semitism. Claims by Shayler (New Statesman 11/9/06) that 9/11 was a 'Zionist' conspiracy are two-a-penny--yet we rarely hear the phrase 'Saudi conspiracy' with far more evidence for such. Lurking in the wings are the usual racist snake-oil salesmen (or in David Icke's case lizards) eager to blame the 'Jews'. The venomous & often anti-semitic reaction to criticism by Jewish journalist Jon Ronson in November 2006 exemplifies this. A relevant subtext is the sheer disbelief non-US citizens could have organised 9/11 without US government assistance--racism by another (subtle) name.

4) Revulsion at the fact that increasingly (or intrinsically) ludicrous theories put about by the 9/11 cult & their home-grown shadow, the 7/7 cult, have the effect of letting spooks and others responsible off the hook in terms of accounting for their activities. In this category come Shayler's recent argument that no planes hit the World Trade Centre (or Pentagon) 9/11/01--instead it was holograms/ missiles/pre-placed explosives. Not only does this impute omniscient powers to the state in terms of carrying operations out effectively, it also implies they have the ability to keep the thousands involved quiet--amazing! The UK equivalent is the claim that the London 7/7/05 bombers didn't actually travel from Luton, didn't carry (or make) any bombs, and the 'suicide videos' they made weren't them anyway. None of this seems true to us, on current evidence. Amid the fog of 'hologram' hoaxes and other fruitloopery, secret state agencies and governments can thus evade hard questions--about why the Pakistani ISI head transferred $100,000 to 9/11 pilot Mohammed Atta, inadequate emergency procedures in New York & London, or the role of apparent MI6 asset Haroon Aswat in 7/7 for instance. NFB has a particular interest in retaining, and enlarging, the space for radical 'parapolitical' analysis of state malfeasance--and are concerned growing fruitcake influence chokes off the space for publicising actual real-life scandals which 9/11 cultists are indifferent to--the 1999 London nail-bombings and Tony Lecomber conspiracy to murder plot of recent--2006--provenance.

5) Fundamentally, the 9/11 & 7/7 cults have a pernicious effect on political discourse. By focussing primarily on a small group of decision-makers in a predominantly ahistorical way, they serve to trivialise, and disempower, the very popular masses that are ultimately the agents of radical social change--if that is to happen. As the excellent Schnews article says"World power is not a neat pyramidal structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top...There is one conspiracy that doesn't lurk in smoky rooms behind closed doors--its called global capitalism". Some US comrades have correctly described 9/11 conspiracy obsessives as examples of "arrested radicalisation". It is true many now drawn towards the 9/11 & 7/7 cults would in the past have become Leftists--and it is vital the Left/Greens do not ignore the genuine issues posed by 9/11--but as supplementary to political practice, not substituting for it. Ultimately, the 9/11 obsession of many people in the UK is not a manifestation of critical thought, but cultural and political subordination to the US--whereby events there are considered more important than equivalents in the UK or the rest of the world. A post-Cold War echo of Soviet Union worship. Earlier Al-Qaeda attacks, such as the 1998 Nairobi US Embassy bombing, get barely a look in, conspiracy-wise. Not just because most killed (213/4,600 injured) were non-white, but the carnage took place outside the imperial (US) heartland. So little to interest white middle-class Western conspiracy theorists. 7/7, however, functions as a useful add-on to the main event--9/11. Though added to the lexicon of 9/11 cult issues in the US, this is done in a patronising way--see the 'Bullhorn Bull-shitter' Alex Jones' film

.

Links and more at: http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk/

[Hammer of Los]

Aw man, AD.

Just when I was beginning to think I had you figured all wrong, here you go and post that crap. Again. I mean, informational diversity is one thing, but making me look at that steaming pile of disinfo (again!) is just impolite. You gonna make me post all the links to the ensuing discussion the first and second time we dug into dear old Larry O'Hara et al?

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=12072

And this one went for 22 pages! Naughty AD!;

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16705

Ah those were the days, impassioned appeals from the sincere and whining white noise from the Amen Amy's. I'm getting quite nostalgic.

I probably shouldn't have said that last bit, should I?

Here we go round the mulberry bush...

[Sounder]

From AD's crap link

A relevant subtext is the sheer disbelief non-US citizens could have organised 9/11 without US government assistance--racism by another (subtle) name.

Gee, where have we heard of this ‘relevant subtext’ before? It is not ‘racist’ to suggest that an unaffiliated Al-Qaida cannot make our air defenses ‘stand down’. I mean, who can do this?

Love your strategy AD of having half baked articles to do your talking for you. You wouldn’t want to take responsibility for putting out your own lame rationales after all.

[MacCruiskeen]

From AD's crap link

A relevant subtext is the sheer disbelief non-US citizens could have organised 9/11 without US government assistance--racism by another (subtle) name.

Gee, where have we heard of this ‘relevant subtext’ before? It is not ‘racist’ to suggest that an unaffiliated Al-Qaida cannot make our air defenses ‘stand down’. I mean, who can do this?

Precisely. And, according to the very same crap arguers, it is not racist to suggest that 19 young, educated Arab men with excellent prospects happily committed indiscriminate mass murder and suicide (thereby bringing entirely predictable mass death and destruction to two Islamic countries) without even bothering to tell us why they dunnit. (Cos they love death, right?)

[nathan28]

From AD's crap link

A relevant subtext is the sheer disbelief non-US citizens could have organised 9/11 without US government assistance--racism by another (subtle) name.

Gee, where have we heard of this ‘relevant subtext’ before? It is not ‘racist’ to suggest that an unaffiliated Al-Qaida cannot make our air defenses ‘stand down’. I mean, who can do this?

Precisely. And, according to the very same crap arguers, it is not racist to suggest that 19 young, educated Arab men with excellent prospects happily committed indiscriminate mass murder and suicide (thereby bringing entirely predictable mass death and destruction to two Islamic countries) without even bothering to tell us why they dunnit. (Cos they love death, right?)

That doesn't mean, of course, that you can't come up with non-racist explanations for their motive, or alternative explanations that still involve hijacking--but that's the point, because you're speculating on motive, or just speculating. Your guess is as good as CNN's, except that CNN has a 24/7 psyop going.

[chump]

"and some of the Jew bashers."

wtf???

Hey,
If I had it to do over again, I probably wouldn't use the term 'jewbashers' to refer to what more appropriately described as the 'blame it on the jews' crowd. When 17breezes posted for the first time ever to point out that it was crass, well, I felt like an ass. Sorry.

While I have read and heard that GHWB is a reptillian alien that can shapeshift, I'd have to see that for myself. He, like so many in his family, has been a wide ranging, functonal operative for the Skull and Bones milieu. He ain't the boss; but he's probably on the committee.

AD, While I don't agree that "World power is not a neat pyramidal structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top ..........." I do agree they serve to"trivialize, and disempower, the very popular masses that are ultimately the agents of social change." Where do all these groups come from? Why do they want everybody to be scared and depressed? The water is so muddy that it's hard to see anything. I try to cut through the nonsense and eke out that mutating semblence of truth that is buried in there somewhere. I have weeded through a lot of that stuff mentioned above and I figure that this kind of work is done on a contract basis, and the players are often changing teams. I don't know what good bullshit is worth these days, but there is sure a lot of it being shoveled.

[American Dream]

..

I want to clarify a few things about my own position, since there seem to be a lot of assumptions about that.

Firstly, I don't even know who Larry O'Hara is. And I'm not going to look him up right now either.

Secondly, the article I posted represents the thoughts of the person or persons who wrote it- and I didn't write it.

As to Alex Jones, David Icke, and Loose Change, I do think that for all of them, half their facts are correct, at least. It's their conclusions that I'm most concerned about.

The "Jew bashers"- not even sure who that means specifically.

Shayler, and to a lesser degree Machon both seem like they should be handled with care, though I wouldn't personally speculate about their intent without much more information.

The statement "World power is not a neat pyramidal structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top..." I agree with. I personally think that looking for an ecology of deep power makes more sense than somehow finding the ultimate smoky room. Others are entitled to their own biases and opinions but I'd like to hear them make a cogent argument for their point of view.

As to who I actually like in 9/11 Theory, Peter Dale Scott ranks very high.

I hope that helps clarifies things a bit.

[Canadian_watcher]

One thing 9/11 did for me.. and I guess you could say that it was the search for 9/11 truth (small 't') was let me in on sides of people that would otherwise not have been exposed.

I have come to a lot of personal wisdom (well, sort of.. I'm not saying I think I'm 'wise" now..)through the whole 9/11 truth process.

I realize now that 'facts' are .. well.. never facts, per se. All facts depend on belief systems, and belief systems are built brick by brick in each one of us.

I realize that some of the people I believed to be worldly are absolutely NOT, and vice versa.

I realize now that people are happy in their ignorance, whereas before I thought that everyone was like me - just bursting for knowledge and therefore freedom.

Along with the banker bailout, 9/11 made me realize that people will very likely never, ever get ouraged enough to upset the heiarchy we live under. So I should make the most of my paycheque and either buy into the system whole hog, or check out of it to the extent that that's possible.

And with that new mindset I feel the pain of compromise as I choose to stand on the edge, neither buying in nor checking out ... until later, when my decision will affect only myself.

[Hammer of Los]

Canadian_watcher, that was poetry (I amended your typo's, I hope you dont mind).

Along with the banker bailout, 9/11 made me realize that people will very likely never, ever get outraged enough to upset the hierarchy we live under. So I should make the most of my paycheque and either buy into the system whole hog, or check out of it to the extent that that's possible.

And with that new mindset I feel the pain of compromise as I choose to stand on the edge, neither buying in nor checking out ... until later, when my decision will affect only myself.

More of a watcher than a doer eh? Me too man, me too. We aren't a threat to anyone. We are not extremists. We are moderates. And we present no threat of violence, quite the opposite. We see the world is already full of violence practiced by the strong upon the weak. You see, we are just intrigued when we notice that a very great deal of deception is being practiced. There's no way around it. You have to learn to use your own common sense and reason. You see, lies transform into PR. And the mass english speaking global media is full of bought and paid for PR. It's advocacy, it's propaganda, it's advertising, it's Mind Kontrol. The truth is a consideration only so far as it is profitable to the media corporations. Look closely at what they are saying. Establish the facts. Improve your informational diversity. Then you can come to your own conclusions, if there are any to be had.

I know I'm pompous. I'm sorry about that.

[Hammer of Los]

I want to clarify a few things about my own position, since there seem to be a lot of assumptions about that. Firstly, I don't even know who Larry O'Hara is. And I'm not going to look him up right now either.

Either AD didn't read the responses he got when he posted that Cultwatch page for a new thread, or he has a very poor memory. Or indeed both. But I thought it was a very memorable thread. It did go for twenty two pages before Jeff locked it. The link to that thread is in my post above. Furthermore, I make no assumptions.

Secondly, the article I posted represents the thoughts of the person or persons who wrote it- and I didn't write it.

This hardly needs pointing out. We have already established that Larry O'Hara is responsible for that site. It reminds me of C2W telling me, entirely superfluously, that she doesn't write articles on global warming for the Times of London.

As to Alex Jones, David Icke, and Loose Change, I do think that for all of them, half their facts are correct, at least. It's their conclusions that I'm most concerned about.

I'm not a fan either.

Shayler, and to a lesser degree Machon both seem like they should be handled with care, though I wouldn't personally speculate about their intent without much more information.

I've read a great deal of information about Shayler and Machon, and I am almost certain that they have indeed been "handled with care."

The statement "World power is not a neat pyramidal structure with aliens, Jews or a cabal of men with a secret handshake at the top..." I agree with. I personally think that looking for an ecology of deep power makes more sense than somehow finding the ultimate smoky room. Others are entitled to their own biases and opinions but I'd like to hear them make a cogent argument for their point of view.

You may have a point there. It rather depends on what you mean by "makes more sense." But the facts are the facts, regardless. State, corporate and scientific institutions are indeed hierarchies. Now me, I think the wealthiest and most influential people on the planet are pretty easy to spot. They are the folk at the top of the heap, as they say. So, just what do they do all day with all that wealth and influence, hmm? Aren't we all just a little bit curious?

Now, I really hope no-one chimes in with, "you know what they say about curiosity," or anything else that my paranoid imagination might interpret as a veiled threat.